and then set about wiping off foreign influence from the country, including all vestiges of communism or capitalism. publishing his personal philosophy in a three-volume green book. gadhafi always said that his goal was to change the world. but it was the way he set out to do it that amused, confused, and often infuriated. gadhafi said he wanted to unite the arab world and even proclaimed a merger with libya, egypt and syria in 1972. that merger plan fell apart. a later merger attempt with tu knee is a disintegrated. wherever he went he made a point of emfa sizing his roots, sleeping in tents, protected by an eye-catching female security detail. his speeches were legendary for both length and bombast.

this 2009 speech at the u.n. was typical. >> translator: we are not committed to obey the rules or resolutions of the councils with this information because it is undemocratic -- >> reporter: what was supposed to be a 15-minute talk ram balanced on more than 90 minutes. but while he sometimes appeared a clown on the world stage, his actions were often deadly. in the mid-80s he funneled money and weapons to support the palestine liberation organization's fight against israel. the irish republican army's efforts to defeat british rule in northern ireland. and he viciously targeted americans. in 1986, libyan agents were accused of bombing a berlin nightclub killing two americans and a turk. u.s. president ronald reagan responded by bombing tripoli, targeting gadhafi's house.

the raid killed more than 100 people, including gadhafi's own daughter. two years later, pan am flight 103 blew up over the tiny village of lockerbie, scotland, raining debris and taking 270 lives. investigators traced the attack to libya. when libya refused to turn over the suspects, the u.n. imposed tough sanctions leaving the country isolated and increasingly destitute. after 11 years as an international outcast, gadhafi cut a deal. he gave up the lockerbie bombing suspects for trial, and after the u.s. invaded iraq, he surprised the world by agreeing to destroy all of his chemical, nuclear and biological weapons. gadhafi soon welcomed western oil companies like bp and total into libya, but questions lingered about whether some western oil contracts were traded for scotland's release of

one of the convicted lockerbie bombers. and he didn't give up the bizarre behavior. on a 2009 visit to italy, he invited 200 models to his ambassador's house, paying each $75 to listen to lectures on islam and giving each a copy of the koran. back home, patience was running thin. after more than 40 years, rebellion bubbled up in the eastern part of the country, quickly spreading across libya. as his government disintegrated, he addressed the nation from the same house bombed by the u.s. in 1986. >> translator: this is my country, the country of my grandfathers. >> reporter: he vowed to die a martyr in libya. >> breaking news now to report out of libya. we have been telling but what happened when moammar gadhafi was captured and then killed. and there was some news, concern, exactly who was with

him, which son was with him. we're getting new information about that. >> the national transitional council said a few hours ago that another son of moammar gadhafi was killed. now al arabiya television is reporting that saif al islam gadhafi, the western face, sort of the friendly face of libya when it came to negotiating an end to the nuclear program, when it came to negotiating a settlement with the lockerbie bombing victims, that is saif al islam gadhafi. now reports coming from al arabiya he has been killed, the 39-year-old killed in libya today, the same day his father was killed by rebel fighters. >> you saw early wrer in the summer when all of the uprising was happening in libya, he was the face of the government there, of the gadhafi government there and had -- was the spokesman for his father, born in 1972. he was 39 -- would have been 39 years old. >> i would caution though to be just a little bit careful with this information, because though

the moammar goadhafi news was confirmed, you remember several weeks -- i should say several months now we heard he was captured and was not in the end. >> that's why the secretary of state this morning -- there were reports of the same thing, moammar gadhafi had been killed and it turned out not to be true. this time it is true and this time we're learning about saif al islam. let's bring in cnn's wolf blitzer now for some analysis. this breaking news now, and hala said, we have to be careful because it is reported by al arabiya, not cnn's reporting here. >> right. there had been previous reports over these many months that one another of gadhafi's sons had been killed and those reports proved to be inaccurate. let's be cautious little bit. but if it is true saif al islam was killed together with his father today, that's major, major news. dan rivers is our man in tripoli. dan, have you gotten independent

confirmation that either one of the sons was killed today in this operation? >> reporter:. no, we haven't, wolf. we've been hearing rumors earlier on today but not independently. the ntc held a press conference and basically playing for time a little bit when it comes to the specifics of how moammar gadhafi was killed and any details about his sons. we haven't gotten any independent confirmation of that. this is what used to be called green square. don't know if the cameraman can just give you a little view of what it is now, it is a sea of the new flags of the new libya. they've renamed it martyr's square. it is full of people here not only celebrating but poignantly reflecting on the who are roars of the gadhafi regime. some of them are holding photos of loved ones who died either in the fight to liberate libya or who died at the hands of the gadhafi regime.

so it is not all about celebration and laughter, but there is certainly a huge sense of relief here, a huge sense of this as a day of enormous import, of emore muss history. the 20th of october i think will be a day that i think no one here will ever forget. i'm sure they'll be naming streets after it for decades to come and i'm sure they'll be keechg this in schools and history lessons for decades to come as well as the day that libya was finally liberated from colonel gadhafi. >> so the celebration in the meantime continues but all of the information, all of the circumstances surrounding the killing of moammar gadhafi and whether or not, as al arabiya reports, saif al islam was killed in the same operation as well, all still remains very murky. we are getting more information. dan, stand by. i'll come back to you shortly. we'll take quick break. breaking news will continue. libya's ambassador here to the

united states is here at cnn. we'll be speaking with him live in just a moment. we'll get the very latest information from libya's man in washington when we come back. ♪ it was the best day ♪ it was the best day yeah! ♪ it was the best day ♪ because of you [echoing] we make a great pair. huh? progressive and the great outdoors. we make a great pair. right, totally. uh... that's what i was thinking. covering the things that make the outdoors great. call or click today. every time a local business opens its doors or creates another laptop bag or hires another employee, it's not just good for business. it's good for the entire community. at bank of america, we know the impact that local businesses have on communities. that's why we extended $7.8 billion to small businesses across the country so far this year.

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months before gadhafi's death, rebel fighters established the national transitional council. the former libyan justice minist minister became chairman. council formed an interim government naming mahmoud jibril the prime minister. jibril has promised to build "a state of institutions and a state of law." so far the council's financial body has received $662 million in international loans and payments from libya's assets that were frozen and held here in the united states. despite allegations of financial corruption by the council's money managers, the prime minister jibril has promised full transparency in its economic dealings. joining us now, the ambassador

of the libyan national transitional council to the united states. he's recognized as libya's am here in washington. he was libya's ambassador during the gadhafi regime. he broke with gadhafi. he's now the ambassador of the new government. mr. ambassador, thanks very much for coming in. let's get to some of the important news. first of all, can you confirm that saif al islam, the son of gadhafi, is in fact dead? >> i just heard the news when i'm step in cnn. i have no time to call tripoli to find out. but i believe this would be his end if he's not dead, then they would capture him very soon. i am sure of that. the family and sons, they have no place to go, no place to hide anymore. libya is free from them, from their mercenaries. >> because al arabiya is reporting that saif al islam is dead. did you know anything about the other son? do you know if he's alive or dead? was he with his father at the

time of this incident this morning when gadhafi was killed? >> well, my information from the ntc members this morning that both of them were killed, that gadhafi and sons and also the minister of defense, if i may call him "minister," the three of them have been killed. >> the former minister, the minister during the gadhafi regime. >> during gadhafi regime. >> do you know the circumstances? have you been told by your government in tripoli the circumstances, how moammar gadhafi was killed? i specifically ask because there's a lot of questions still out there. did that nato air strike on some convoy in sirte this morning, was that part -- did that lead to the death eventually of gadhafi? >> well, the details i have, there was a convoy of gadhafi and was engaged in exchanging

fires with the revolutionaries and gadhafi were killed. but to me if you ask me, wolf, i am not really very interested in the details how gadhafi was killed. for me, gadhafi better to be killed than captured alive. i think this is less problem for us, even the libyan people. i think they want to see him alive, but i think this will be an issue. i believe that he was killed because they -- his assistants or his bodyguard, they don't stop shooting the revolutionaries then because of this that he was killed. >> so it doesn't make any difference to you whether he survived the battle, was wounded, but then later executed by some of the libyan forces. you don't care -- >> no, no, no. i do care that the revolutionary will not be executing him if they captured him alive. this is very important issue. i think all the libyans, they need to see him alive if they

can get it. but we don't know if gadhafi has been shot dead before the revolutionary they get him. nobody can claim at all that he's been killed after he's been captured alive. it is not true at all. libyans, as i said, they want to see him alive and they want to capture him and they want to ask him. not only the libyan, maybe the international community, the icc, international court of criminals. they all want to see him alive. >> because i know that there have been -- there were many suggestions by you and other transitional authorities in libya that maybe he could be tried in both libya, as well as subsequently at the i understand criminal court in the netherlands. i know you were thinking about all those legal aspects. but all of those questions right now moot given the fact that gadhafi is dead. do you know what they're going to do with his body right now? i ask the question because the obama administration was so

sensitive when it killed bin laden in pakistan, in abbottabad pakistan. they took the body and buried it at sea in accordance with islamic law. do you know what your government is going to do with moammar gadhafi's body? >> well, i believe that according to islamic instruction, that a dead body have to be buried. this is the normal procedures and i think -- and i'm sure that the ntc, they will do the same thing with the body of gadhafi. the mercenaries when they captured them or when they found them dead, then they do the same thing in misratah, sirte, all the cities. they take them and they bury them. it will be the same thing for gadhafi's body and the rest of his family if any of them has been killed. yeah. that's -- we have to respect the dead people, dead people. >> and will it be at a location that will be well known?

i ask the question only because he probably has some followers out there who may decide they want to create a shrine around that grave site, if you will. is that going to be at a marked grave or will it be unknown to the public? >> well, wolf, i can tell you the chapter of gadhafi is over. the gadhafi sent libyans a terror. nothing more than that. a nightmare. if he is -- if he's grave is known to the libyans or is not known to the libyans, i think it will make no difference for libyans who suffered for the last 42 years from gadhafi. it may be for his own family, that's true. but libyans, they bury their dead in a very humble way. we don't have this many of marbles and things like that. you can see them, but usually the libyans, they bury their

dead in a very simple way. >> you're the ambassador of libya to the united states. what do you want to say to the american people, to the obama administration, members of congress, and nato, for that matter, for the assistance that you received that led up to the overthrow of the gadhafi regime and now to his death. >> i remember very well, wolf, when you ask me this question maybe second time you interview me, what i do want from obama. what i want to tell president obama. and i told him my message at that time that he should help the libyans. now i want to tell through you, through the cnn, that the president, the american people, the capitol hill, the media, thank you very much what you did for libyans. they have to be proud. americans have you to be proud because they take the lead. took the lead for the first few weeks to help the libyan -- or to stop gadhafi from killing his own people. but now the war is over.

there are so many challenges. the relation between libya and united states is already changed. when we process even visas for the americans, it is completely different. it is more faster than it used to be. the confidence is there, but we need the americans to be close to us. we need them to help us to build our democratic institution. we need them also to help the libyans to build their economy. the american companies are invited to participate in reconstruction of libya. and also, training libyan people. this is a very emergent case. the other important thing that the libyans face, this is a great challenge. i'm really grateful to secretary clinton, to senator mccain who went to libya and when they came back then, they called for demonstration to help the

treatment of the libyan agents either by sending hospital ship or by opening the military hospitals in europe to receive the libyan injured. this is a great challenge now in front of the ntc. and of course i have to thank nato and our neighbor countries who help us. thank you very much, america. you took the right decision, you know, to help the libyan people. the libyan people are sending a strong message to all over the world -- the dictatorship, they have no more place on the earth. >> because it wasn't just nato and the united states and canada, for that matter. it was almost -- >> and canada winl's i'm sorry. >> your fellow arab countries, qatar and jordan were also helping military. let me wind up, mr. ambassador, with two sensitive questions. senator mccain said earlier it the day when he was in libya recently your government would

consider reimbursing american taxpayers for the cost of helping you liberate your country from gadhafi. the vice president, joe biden, just said it was $2 billion. are you open to that to reimbursing the united states for the expense of all of the operations, nato operations, in libya? >> well, think this is one of the issues that can be discussed among -- between the libyans and the americans. but i believe -- this is my personal view -- if the american reimbursed, then it will not give the same feeling to the libyans when the americans came to help them just for the sake of democracy, for the sake of human rights, for the sake of human being. when the gadhafi, he came, start killing his own people, using a different kind of weapon and the americans, they speed up and came up with the strong position to help the libyan people.

but at the same time, we do understand the economic problems facing united states and europeans and i think the libyans, they will be ready to discuss any kind of issues concerning this. >> because libya itself, as you and all of our viewers know, potentially a wealthy country given the fact that some major oil exporting country. one final question. the convicted pan am killer, the pan am families would like to see him -- assuming he survives -- he's been alive for two years since coming back from scotland, they'd like to see him brought say to the united states for questioning. are you open to that assuming he is healthy enough to do that? >> well, wolf, you know that megrahi is a very sick man. he's living with oxygen beside his bed.

i think the thing may be americans and libyans and the justice want for him that if he has any information that he can give to help us to establish how the lockerbie bombing was made during the gadhafi's in power. but apart from that, i believe that the american families, they have more compassion and they are -- do understand the situation and the libyans societies also and the traditions and i don't think that they will be seeking for megrahi to go back to scotland or to be captured by other, you know, countries for more trials. i think what we need, we need how this has been made -- or how this was done, you know, if he has any useful information. but if i saw the last photo of

him, is he a very sick man. >> mr. ambassador, i know you are a very happy man on this day. the confirmation that gadhafi is dead, maybe one or both of his sons, his other sons may be dead as well according to al arabiya. we'll continue our conversation but thanks so much for joining us. thanks for coming in. >> thank you for your support. thank you very much. i appreciate your help and your understanding and your support of the libyan people's strungles. thank you for every country helping libya. >> the libyan ambassador to the united states, mr. ambassador, thanks very much. much more of the breaking news coverage for our viewers here in the united states and around the world. after a short break, we'll also have a time line of the gadhafi rise to power.

welcome back now to our continuing coverage of the capture and eventual death of moammar gadhafi. >> these reports that at least one of the sons of moammar gadhafi is also dead. saif al islam, reports that he's been killed. you're seeing a live feed there of the white house. we are expecting president obama to give -- to make a statement a little bit later on at 2:00 p.m. eastern on the reported death of moammar gadhafi. >> the president will do that at the top of the hour. in just about 30 minutes. he'll do it from the rose garden in the united states. moammar gadhafi was a man of grand am bigss and sometimes ruthless methods, hala. he was born in 1942 near the libyan town of sirt. he studied at the military academy in benghazi.

ironically the seat of the revolution that ousted him. he married twice, fathered eight children and adopted two others. . september of 1969 he led the revolt that toppled libya's king and he never looked back since then. in 1986, president reagan ordered tripoli bombed over libya's role in a nightclub bombing that killed two u.s. troops in berlin and then two years later pan am flight 103 was bombed over lockerbie, scotland and libyan agents were implicated in that. >> in 2003 after the invasion of iraq, gadhafi publicly renounced weapons of mass destruction. but this year after turning his guns and artillery on his own people, the u.n. called for a new zealand that quickly led to a nato air campaign. by july the u.s. had formally recognized the rebels, the national transitional council, as libya's rightful rulers and one month later they overran tripoli. our next guest is a veteran foreign correspondent who's interviewed gadhafi.

today robin wright is a distinguished scholar at the woodrow wilson center. now your first sort of reaction as you heard the news first and then saw this remarkable video of gadhafi apparently dead, and then video later on that surfaced of him still alive in rebel hands. >> well, this is an extraordinary moment for libya. as it moves into a whole different era. libya is the one country of the 22 nations that actually has the prospect of making it through a transition. and the only holdout was this period when moammar gadhafi fought his own people from august 22nd until today. his passing means that the libyans can move beyond this trauma to begin to recon instruct and that's really a turning point for the entire region as important as the ouster of hosni mubarak in egypt and president ben ali in tunisia. >> we've heard from analysts and middle east experts say not so

fast. this isn't necessarily going to be easy for libya, that there are divisions even among revolutionaries, tribal divisions and geographic differences, and there is going to be a real fight for power and control of the massive resources of libya. >> well, there are 140-odd tribes and chance and deep rivalries between the two different parts of the country, the east in ben ghazi and the west in tripoli. all feel that they played a significant role in ousting the regime and want a share of both the political and economic spoils. this is the basis for a lot of tension down the road. but libya's also a country with only 6 1/2 million people and vast oil resources. so it has far fewer problems than a country like egypt, for example, with 85 million people and very limited resources. so this is a period when the international community is also going to want to find at least one country where it can help and there's big incentive because of libya's resources.

>> robin, a lot of people wanted to see him in front of an international war crimes court and they wanted to see him pay for this. what does it mean for him that -- and for the world, especially for libya and the world -- that he was killed rather than captured? >> i think it sends an important message to other leaders in the region whether it's the trial of hosni mubarak in egypt for everything from corruption and human rights violations to possibly authorizing force against his own people, to moammar gadhafi's death. today the message -- common message is that leaders will be held to account and this is important turning point for the region. all 22 arab countries and even the wider islamic world, the last block of countries to hold out against the democratic tide that their leaders are not immune, that everyone faces some kind of danger, if they don't respond to the kind of grassroots opposition that's growing almost every place. >> robin, at least some of all of this is going to boil down to those resources, these oil

resources. western countries certainly interested in establishing close links with the new governing, with the new leadership in libya in order to take advantage of those resources. so how is that going to unfold? >> well, libya is a country where despite the kind of destruction that's happened, the u.s. estimate is that it can get its oil production up in less than two years. and it has the potential even to produce more oil than it has in the past and this is a very important for our european allies and potentially in the price of oil to the rest of us. >> robin wright, thanks very much for joining us on cnn and cnn international. don. moammar gadhafi has always said that he would never leave, he was going to die, he was going to die in libya. guess what? to that end, the protesters could only imagine back in february that all of this would happen as they took to the streets here. now after eight months of protests and intense fighting, libya now face astrue beginning,

a true end to gadhafi's 42-year reign. this was the scene on the streets in tripoli just today, lots of celebrating going on. deputy international editor for "time" magazine is here. he's reported extensive on libya, gadhafi and the battle for control of the front lines. he joins us now. an historic moment for libyan people, but the big question is what now? how do the libyan people transition from a dictator to a democracy to a completely new political culture? >> well, the transition began two months ago when tripoli fell to the rebels. i guess we can no longer call them rebels, they're now the government forces. i think one of the first challenges for the administration is to create a security department, new police, new military, allowed to build on what infrastructure they already have. some of the forces that were loyal to gadhafi will have to be taken in to any new apparatus.

but once they can establish law and order and peace in their cities, which doesn't look like it is going to be a major problem -- then they can get down to the serious business of recovering all the money that gadhafi had in foreign banks and foreign countries and then begin to invest that money into the libyan economy, create jobs for all these people who are right now out in the streets firing guns in the air and are very happy but in the weeks and months ahead are going to begin to wonder about where they get their incomes and how they feed their families. >> i want to talk to you a little bit more about the transition but my question is same to you as to robin -- little bit different though. a lot of people wanted to see him go on trial in front of an international war crimes court. the question is, because a lot of people wanted answers there. they don't know what happened to their loved ones. hundreds, maybe thousands of people. will they ever get tomorrow answers? is there anyone who can answer this besides moammar gadhafi? >> i think quite a lot of those answers will be available. there are enough people around gadhafi who have been arrested.

there are enough documents that have been claimed, that have been secured that will provide some of those answers. gadhafi will have taken some to the grave with him. the important thing i think is how libyans feel about this rather than the rest of us and i think if you asked in the streets of tripoli -- in fact i've seen you do that, the response is universally have been we're glad to be rid of him. yes, it will be nice to see him in the dark but there is a catharsis to seeing the end. keep in mind, for the majority of libyans, they know no other leader than this one and they're very, very keen and very much in a hurry to get on with their post-gadhafi life. so the end of gadhafi in this way, although it's -- may leave some answers -- some questions unanswered, is probably for the libyan society on balance probably a good thing. >> bobby, lots more questions for you but unfortunately we're

out of time. thank you so much from "time" magazine. well, he took control of libya in 1969 after overthrowing the king there. >> a look at gadhafi and how he rose to power and u.s. reaction to his death. that's next. [ tires squeal ] an accident doesn't have to slow you down. with better car replacement, available only from liberty mutual insurance, if your car's totaled, we give you the money to buy a car that's one model-year newer with 15,000 fewer miles on it. there's no other auto insurance product like it. better car replacement, available only from liberty mutual.

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i tell you what i can spend. i do my best to make it work. i'm back on the road safely. and i saved you money on brakes. that's personal pricing. many libyans today are celebrating the death of moammar gadhafi, but how is his demise being viewed in other muslim nations and the rest of the arab world as well? director of the middle east center at the london school of

economics, an expert on islam, and author of two books on jihad and muslim militancy. the professor joins us live from paris. all right, so we've seen the images now. we've seen the cell phone video. we've seen what is really once again the highly symbolic and physical death of a dictator. now what? >> well, i mean i think that's the biggest question. in fact, i am extremely, hala, concerned about this frenzied celebration, the joy over the brutal killing of a dictator. i think this will likely reinforce some of the divisions that exist in libya. remember in the last few weeks the fightings in sirte and bani walid basically tell me ideological and tribal divisions are very real and this new frenzy of celebration will likely deepen and widen the cleavages in particular among some of the loyalists of gadhafi. but i think the message throughout the arab world is

that basically if you oppress your people, if you don't engage your civil society, if you stay in power for -- if you stay in power for some years, this will be your end. if i was sitting in damascus tonight, if i were sitting in basically saana today, in yemen, i would have a sleepless night because the symbolism and message is clear that this could happen to you, to president ali abdul asar of yemen to even president bashar al assad in syria. >> you say not so fast, in other words, that the road ahead is going to be difficult, it is going to be difficult to unify the opposition, in fact unify the country of libya, not just in a country line libya but in others as well. once the dictator is gone, when you have no tradition of democracy, i mean these challenges are going to take years to overcome. aren't they? >> absolutely. and remember, hala, i mean

egyptians were united over getting rid of mubarak. look at egypt today. look at the fierce political struggle. the same thing applies to libya. in fact, libya is much more divided than egypt or even yemen for this particular sense. the misratah council does not even recognize the tnc in tripoli as the legitimate government of libya. the entire world has recognized the tnc in tripoli as the government of libya, yet misratah council in eastern libya does not do so. this tells you about the regional differences. i am yet -- i don't want to give any slack to the rebels in libya. we have reports, hala, coming out from human rights organizations about human rights violations, about killings, about stabbing of prisoners in libya, and even the story of how gadhafi is killed, i want to see more about what happened. he was captured alive and yet we're told he's dead. so the reality is the challenges are much more greater than

basically the celebration we are seeing today in western capitals. and i think the morning after we will wake up to a libya that has changed very little in terms of really mending the rifts inside the country itself. i want to see the new leadership of libya making really serious efforts at basically mending the rifts and bringing the regional -- the ideological and tribal elements into the new government, a unified national unity government in libya. >> there is a time for celebration. today is a time for celebration for many libyans. but then, as you point out, a time to look in a sober way at the challenges ahead and also to hold to account those who have taken over in libya as you mentioned. that is going to be most certainly one of the things we're going to have to keep a close eye on. thanks so much. live from paris today. we want to get to wolf blitzer but before we do that we have a bit of developing news. we want to show now because with

moammar gadhafi's belief his son was there. libyan government television is showing a photograph of him dead. again this is according to libyan television. that is a picture of mutassim dead, moammar gadhafi's son. wolf blitzer in washington. you there are reports not confirmed by cnn, saif al islam, the son who really had taken over for his father is now dead as well. >> perhaps the best known of all the sons, saif al islam. al arabiya, the arabic satellite channel reporting saif al islam, also dead. there you saw the picture of mutassim gadhafi, the other son, dead, a picture shown on libyan state television. our next guest has a very unique perspective on gadhafi's impact and the tactics that brought him down. general wesley clark is the former nato supreme allied commander, one time presidential candidate here in the united

states as well. general, is this what nato did right now -- i want you to put it on your cap as a former supreme nato allied commander. what nato did in libya over these past several months, is that a precedent for what nato potentially should do in syria? >> it could be a precedent. it has to be balanced off against the competing interests and syria is a much different case. everyone of these activities, every case, has to be looked at as a unique case. so syria's going to be different from libya. but what it does show, wolf, is that nato's capable of a sustained efforts despite political opposition, despite the fact that some member governments may not actively support it and despite the fact that if you were on the other side of it you'd look at nato and say, look at them all quarrelling, they will naefr get it done. i'm sure gadhafi and his group at one time or another would watch the political news and think nato was going to come

apart. but of course it doesn't. >> would you recommend to the president of the united states and to the nato commanders, the nato allies, that nato start thinking along similar lines, doing in syria what it has just done in libya? >> well, i'd like to keep any recommendation i'd make along that lines personal and private. but, what i would say is this -- that the people in syria are in desperate condition. they need assistance. they need support. they need moral support from the outside world. and bashar al assad in syria should be under no illusions. if the syrian people have sustained their resistance against his rule, month after month after month, through all the brutality and punishment he's doled out, they're going to be resisting him for a long time. his days are numbered. he's going to go the way of gadhafi. gadhafi had a choice. he could have taken a statesman like approach when it broke out and the world came down against

him say, look, look, i've done my part, i've made libya a nation, i've gotten rid of the colonials, i've taken oil back for the libyan people, and it is time for younger leadership. he could have gone out in a statesman like fashion. so could bashar al assad. >> because gadhafi did have many opportunities to leave libya even. he said he would never do that, but he could have. he have free message. his sons certainly had an opportunity to go to a third country. they would presumably be alive living very well right now because they certainly had stashed away a lot of money in overseas accounts, money that the international community and especially the new libyan government is looking for right now. but they decided to stay there to fight for their regime, and now they've paid their price, moammar gadhafi now dead and now the picture of mutassim, one of his sons shown on libyan tv, also. reports saif al islam also reported dead, though we have not confirmed that. a most upon mission nato

undertook in libya. this is why the united nations security council with arab country support went ahead with it, general, was to protect civilians, prevent a bloodbath from unfolding in libya. i come back to the situation to syria. we now know according to the united nations, 3,000 syrians, most of whom were just protesting peacefully against bashar al assad, they are now confirmed dead. so many other thousands in prison. many have been seriously injured. is it time for the u.n. security council to consider a similar resolution as far as syria's concerned to do something to protect the human rights situation, protect civilians in syria? >> absolutely. it is, wolf. the united nations is long overdue in taking a strong stand on this. it's been blocked by the governments of russia and china. obviously they didn't like nato's actions in libya, all right. but get over it. because what nato did was actually the minimum. this was done certainly with the

backing of nato but it was the leadership and the endurance of the libyan people that brought this outcome to bear. just as is the case in syria. you know, none of these leaders in these countries ever believe it is going to happen. when noriega was in panama and the 82nd airborne landed on the air strip, he turned to his aide and said "i never thought they'd come." saddam i'm sure never thought the united states would invade and i'm sure moammar gadhafi never really believed, despite the warnings he was given, that he would be pulled from a hole in the ground. and yet that's the way it happens. and bashar al assad in syria should recognize that when there's a strong sense of injustice, when people's rights have been violated like this, people will rise up and in a democratic age, there's no holding them back. >> one final question, general clark, before i let you go. we're waiting for the president of the united states. he's about to walk into the rose garden over at the white house and speak to the world on what

has happened on this day. what's the single-most important thing you would like to hear the president say? >> i'd like to hear him congratulate the people of libya for what they've done and thank our allies and also to offer some guidance to the people of libya and the people of the region people of the region in the course ahead. because this is just the fist stage in what is happening in libya. it is yet to be seen whether order can be restored fully. whether the fighting will really stop. whether there will be revenge killings or not and whether democracy and self-government can really take root in a proper way in libya. >> general clark, thanks as usual for joining us. >> thank you. >> to be with you. >> let's go back to you at the cnn center. >> at the top of the hour, the president will make that speech with the comments at the rose garden. >> while he is making his statement, people in tripoli are

celebrating moammar gadhafi's death. he was unpredictable, repressive, often a brutal ruler. his violent tactics went beyond his country's borders turning libya into a thatpariah. the plane exploded over lockerbie, scotland. gadhafi allegedly behind that act of terrorism. among those victims was brian flynn's brother jp. >> it is hard to look at those images even today. i'm sure it is even tougher for him. so it has been 23 years since you lost your brother. and you say gadhafi's zetd toned a long jagged road to justice. >> yeah. and it's funny, how do you react to a situation like this when something you dreamed about for more than 20 years actually comes true? i always had this image of gadhafi being captured by american special forces in a marijuana similar to how, either captured or killed osama bin

laden. today we have this great juxtaposition to the freeing of the libyan people although it is sometimes hard to celebrate when someone gets killed brutally, in this case there is every cause for celebration. he was an unrepentant murderer who was repressive with his people. today because of the libyan people and the assistance and the courage of the leaders in the u.s. and the uk and france, we've been able to bring down gadhafi and free the libyan people. is there a difference, does it makes a difference to you that he was captured and killed rather than facing a trial? >> i would love to tell you that i'm noble enough to always think that someone should face a trial and do it the right way. and unfortunately, part of me thinks this story had to end this way. for the libyan people to exact their own form of justice rad than have him sit in some international court of justice where his antics and eccentricities would have considered. >> what do you think your brother how died that day on pan am 103, how would you tell him the story of today? how do you think he would have

reacted to it? >> it's funny. i told him, i made a commitment when he died that we would do everything we could to bring some sense of justice and meaning to what happened. part of that means going on and living a good life and living a happy life. but also more importantly, it meant correcting an injustice in the world. when that happens to one of your family members you feel a sense of purpose. through the years, we've sued pan am. we found them guilty of willful misconduct. we lobbied congress to establish the iran-libyan sanctions act which was a law specifically designed to punish libya. we also got the u.n. to put serious soongss libya that ended up working. we did everything we could and i said that was part of my commit many to my brother. that i would continue the fight for justice. and then today when the libyan people have done this, they freed themselves from this ruler, sure, our part was very small in it. in the sense of our pursuit of justice but there's something to it that makes us feel like we

were part of it and to my brother i would say, hey, we did something. >> the reaction from the rest of your family members. >> i've heard from a lot of them today. we've been in great communication and this is a great example of how a group of people, just ordinary people can come together and do something extraordinary. we believe by holding people accountable, by keeping up this fight for more than 20 years, that people, my parents and their friends and parents of other victims were an inspiration to me. i was a teenager when it happened. and through years then it's time for to you step up and do something. what they've been saying to me 78 it is such an overwhelming mix of emotions. you all of a sudden see a video of gadhafi lying there dead, bloodied and you find yourself having this reaction of, yes! that's what it is meant to be. and then you think perhaps i shouldn't have been so visceral in that reaction. but the reality is that it is an unrepentant murderer. the freeing of the libyan people. the juxtaposition of the people celebrating at the time has made

a big difference. >> that's a human reaction. we thank you. thank you for joining us today and our regards to your family. >> thank you very much. >> brian flynn whose brother died in pan am 103 reacting to the death of moammar gadhafi. wolf is in washington with more. wolf? >> we want to get some perspective from our own fareed zakaria. he is joining us from dubai. when you heard gadhafi was dead, what went through your mind? >> reporter: i was surprised. you may recall weighed conversation on air a couple months ago when you asked me whether i thought he would give up. i never thought gadhafi would give up. he was not a bureaucrat like hosni mubarak. he was not somebody who was standing in line in the regime and it became his turn to be the dictator. he was a revolutionary. a guy who launched a colonel's

coup. he had always been a kind of fighter, romantic, mad, crazy. and as a result, always suspected he would go down fighting. i also thought that there was much less toly, than people made out. he did not actually have lots of tribes loyal to him. he had paid off a bunch of them. but once the money starts drying up, that kind of loyalty disappears pretty quickly. i also thought it was a sad statement about the way in which he and his sons, as you pointed out, wolf, plundered the country, wrecked it economically, and were unable to even provide some kind of transition to the next stage. >> you speak about the sons. we saw the picture that was just shown con confirming that he was shown today.

el arabiya showed that. if in fact both these sons are dead in addition to the father, that represents really, i would say for all practical purposes, the complete end of any hope that any gadhafi ever might reemerge and take charge. >> i think that's right. there was very little hope in any event. i interviewed gadhafi wheches in new york. i think difference last western journalist trying to interview him. at the time i negotiated with the guy who we've seen now dead. and he struck me as a playboy. he struck me as a rich kid. he had just come back from las vegas in a private plane with girls and god knows what else. these were not people who could really of have succeeded gadhafi. gadhafi had become even more crazy than usual and his sons were running things.

at the end of the day, gadhafi was the head of the regime. the sons were just, they were spoiled brats who i couldn't ever see being able to succeed. one came across as extremely immature. a young mafia gangster more than a leader in waiting. >> although saif al islam gadhafi did get a doctor from the london school of economics, although there were investigations whether he plagiarized and simply paid for that doctorate. you remember that scandal, don't you? >> reporter: oh, yeah. saif was a more cerebral character. he was smart. he spoke very well. he spoke very movingly about trying to liberalize libya. but there was another side to him. he was a great playboy. he spent his time in monte carlo. none of these characters seemed to have really the capacity to be real nation builders.

in the context of being the son of moammar gadhafi, saif was impressive. not on his own. i think what you'll see is those around gadhafi will crumble entirely. this was a one-man regime, a one-man cult and now that man is gone. >> on the scene for us from dubai. thank you very much. much more of the breaking news coverage after this.

the apparent death of moammar gadhafi. wolf blitzer standing by. going to join me here alongside in washington. we are standing by for president obama. he is scheduled to speak any moment now from the white house rose garden. we'll carry that live as soon as we see him there. keep in mind, the united states government has not yet confirmed what much of the world seems to accept at this point.

that gadhafi was mortally wounded today in or near his home town of sirte. as we await, and live pictures from the white house as we await the president. i want to show you this video. we took it in just about 90 minutes ago. it appears to show, look carefully. it appears to show gadhafi in custody. he appear in this image there, right there, still alive. i know it is jumpy, hard to follow. but we do see a man purportedly moammar gadhafi, in a semi upright position up against that truck. clearly under duress. quite possibly mortally wound. the report we've heard thus far, we say detailed but again unconfirmed, is that gadhafi was wounded and captured in sirte, his home town. and that his captors determined to drive him from sirte to misrata. there are hospitals in that car, in that vehicle gadhafi died.

i need to warn you. this next piece of video is even more unsettling than this. this video here purports to show a bloodied gadhafi here on the ground in sirte. you can clearly, if you look closely, the likeness there to moammar gadhafi and that is our sole reason for airing this particular video here on cnn. now, libyans seemed to step notion that gadhafi is dead. they have heard it from the country's new leaders, including the libyan ambassador to london. here he is speaking just this morning. >> today on this day, 20 of october, gadhafi is dead. >> and again that purports to show the body of also more video. one of gadhafi's sons, mutassim also reportedly killed in the fighting in sirte. wolf blitzer, i know we are

awaiting the president. this is the first time wefl heard from him thus far today. >> nobody from the obama administration at least publicly yet has officially confirmed that gadhafi is dead, although numerous members of the house and senate have said he is dead. presumably they're getting their information from the executive branch of the u.s. government. it will be very interesting to hear how the president of the united states, once he walks into the rose garden from the oval office, and carefully reads his statement to the american people and to the world. i should say, how he phrases the language that gadhafi is in fact dead. how far does he in this confirming this? our white house correspondent is standing by. do you have any advance indications on the phrasing that the president might use when he walks to where you are right now, into the rose garden? >> we do, wolf. and it is going to be very, very careful as we understand it from a white house official. not an outright acknowledgement

of an independent confirmation on the part of officials. from the white house officials, we're told the president will cite the fact that libyan announced gadhafi's death, and also, and this may be even more significant, that the u.s. has received similar reports through diplomatic channels, and that they're pretty confident in those reports. we haven't heard publicly from white house officials yet except earlier today, vice president biden did acknowledge gadhafi in the situation. we're just getting a two-minute warning, i should tell you. we're just two minutes out from hearing the president. one way or another, dead or alive, he's gochbl he didn't acknowledge the belief that gadhafi is dead. but he was hailing this, the u.s. involvement in libya is really good method for helping, i guess, move democracy and also just assuring that there weren't any u.s. casualties. he said we invested $2 billion,

i should say, and we didn't lose a single life. he said that was a prescription in how we ought to deal going forward. so certainly from the vice president's sort of hailing the strategy, that the administration used. even though as you know, the president got a lot of flak from some war weary democrats and certainly from some fiscally conservative republican who's are concerned over the money that was being invested. >> he got flak. not only from them but from the other side. he got flak for waiting too long and going forward with the nato imposed no-fly zone over libya. some of his critics early on suggesting that some libyan, innocent libyans were killed because the u.s. and the nato allies were dawdling. what i'm going to be especially interested, i don't know if you have any advance word on what the president will say on the lessons learned from libya. does the u.s. do this kind of thing with the nato allies down the flowed other countries? for example, syria, where does the u.s. go from here.

i assume he will look ahead as well. is that what you're hearing? >> you know, i haven't mattered, wolf, but i think if you're judging from what we heard from vice president joe biden, he was hailing this as a prescription so that would be applied in other circumstances and not just libya. we've long heard from the white house, from president obama that each of these nations where we've seen activity during the arab uprisings, that each one should be treated differently. certainly syria falls into that cat goempl but i think we would expect for him to look forward. we've certainly heard that from vice president biden today. >> i assume he will as well. >> here he comes. the president has just walked out of the oval office. he will walk into the rose garden and address the american people and the world. >> good afternoon, everybody. today the government of libya announced the death of moammar gadhafi. this marks tend of a long and

painful chapter for the people of libya who now have the opportunity to determine their own destiny in a new and democratic libya. for four decades, the gadhafi regime ruled the libyan people with an iron fist. basic human rights were denied, innocent civilians were detained, beaten and killed, and libya's wealth was squandered. the enormous potential of the libyan people was held back and terror was used as a political weapon. today we can definitively say that the gadhafi regime has come to an end. the last major regime strongholds have fallen. the new government is consolidating the control over the country. and one of the world's longest serving dictators is no more. one year ago, the notion of a free libya seemed impossible. but then the libyan people rose up and demanded their rights.

and when gadhafi and his forces started going city to city, town by town to brutalize men, women and children, the world refused to stand idly by. faced with the potential of mass atrocities, any call for help from the libyan people, the united states and our friends and allies stopped gadhafi's forces in their tracks. a coalition that included the united states, nato and arab nations persevered through the summer to protect libyan civilians. and meanwhile, the courageous libyan people fought for their own future and broke the back of the regime. so this is a momentous day in the history of libya. the dark shadow of tyranny has been lifted and with this enormous promise, the libyan people now have a great responsibility. to build an inclusive and tolerant and democratic libya that stands as the ultimate

rebuke to gadhafi's dictatorship. we look forward to the announcement of the country's liberation, the quick formation of an interim government, and a stable transition to libya's first free and fair elections. and we call on our libyan friends to continue to work with the international community to secure dangerous materials and to respect the human rights of all libyans. including those who have been detained. we're under no illusions. libya will travel a long and winding road to full democracy. there will be difficult days ahead. but the united states together with the international community is committed to the libyan people. you have won your revolution. and now we will be a partner as you forge a future that provides dignity, freedom, and opportunity. for the region, today's events

prove once more that the rule of an iron fist inevitably comes to an end. across the arab world, citizens have stood up to claim their rights. youth are delivering a powerful rebuke to dictatorship. and those leaders who try to deny their dignity will not succeed. for us here in the united states, we are reminded today of all those americans that we lost at the hands of gadhafi's terror, their families and friends are in our thoughts and in our prayers. we recall their bright smiles, their extraordinary lives, and their tragic deaths. we know that nothing can close the wound of their loss but we stand together as one nation by their side. for nearly eight months, many americans have provided extraordinary service and support of our efforts to protect the libyan people. and to provide them with a chance to determine their own

destiny. skilled diplomats have helped to lead an unprecedented global response. our brave pilots have flown in libya's skies. our sailors have provided support off libya's shores. and our leadership in nato has helped guide our coalition. without putting a single u.s. service member on the ground, we achieved our objectives and our nato mission will soon come to an end. this comes at a time when we see the strength of american leadership across the world. we've taken out al qaeda leaders and we've put them on the path to defeat. we're winding down the war in iraq and have begun a transition in afghanistan. and now working in libya with friends and allies, we've demonstrated what collective action can achieve in the 21st century. of course, above all, "u.s.a. today" belongs to the people of libya. this is a moment for them to

remember all those who suffered and were lost under gadhafi and look forward to the promise of a new day. and continuing american people wish the people libya the very best in what will be a challenging but hopeful days, weeks, months, and years ahead. thank you very much. >> the president not responding to questions that were shouted from the reporters in the rose garden. he spoke for about five minutes a little more than five minutes. and he told the world, he told the people of libya, you have won your revolution. the president of the united states in effect going ahead and confirming that gadhafi is dead, saying that he has been so informed by the new government in libya. a strong statement from the president. not really elab rating too much on where the u.s. might go from here but clearly, saying that this is a momentous, in his words, a momentous day. as we watch what happens next,

it will be fascinating to see where the night mission, if the nato mission even continues. and if writ to expand to the other countries that are seeing dramatic developments unfoelgd. lots of unanswered questions. the president didn't answer any questions as far as how gadhafi was killed. was he captured alive? was he wounded? was he subsequently executed? and certainly he didn't get into any of the details of his two sons. one of whom has officially been confirmed dead. the other al arabiya saying is dead. i know you'll be watching this closely. >> before i let you go, i was listening closely as well to the phraseology of sort of the end of the gadhafi regime. he said today we can definitively say it has come to an end. never itered the words, gadhafi is dead. to your point, obviously his phrasing, the nuances are so, so

key. if you can put it in a bigger context, why? why did he not say that? >> he said the u.s. government has been informed by the libyan government that he is dead. he didn't say confirmation. he was just taking the word of the libyan government. such a sensitive issue. over these many months, the several months of the libyan revolution, the libyan government issued statements and a lot of them were not true. one of them that gadhafi's sons, one of them was dead. we later found out whether it was saif al islam gadhafi or mutassim, was not dead. then transitional authority would say we deliberately lied for psychological propaganda purposes to try to put pressure on the government. the gadhafi supporters. and we wanted to get them nervous. that's not the way you behave. you don't establish credibility by deliberately putting out a false statement. in this particular case, about 12 hours or so ago, we first

heard about what was going on in sirte, gadhafi's home town, and there were initial reports that gadhafi was wounded, captured, then reports that he was dead. a lot of us certainly remembered some of the false statements that have come out from the libyan transitional government. that's why there was such strong hesitation. it wasn't just journalists who were skeptical. >> leaders. >> of these statements. it was world leaders including as you saw, the secretary of state hillary clinton. she was about to do a series of interviews with reporters traveling with her right now in afghanistan. and she said, wow! when she got that. >> in her blackberry. >> she saw on it a blackberry. she said it is unconfirmed. she calmed down very, very quickly. we have that on videotape. i'm sure you'll show it. >> yep, we'll be talking about that. as to the how and when of gadhafi and the ending of his life some 12 hours ago. we'll talk to dan rivers who has been in sirte covering the battle of sirte.

we'll talk to him as necessary tripoli today. wolf blitzer, i know you have the situation room to get ready for. we will see you here in less than two hours. thank you so much for your extensive coverage today. stay with me. all kinds of celebrating in libya today. the end of an era. 42-year dictator, dead. moammar gadhafi. look, every day we're using more and more energy. the world needs more energy. where's it going to come from? ♪ that's why right here, in australia, chevron is building one of the biggest natural gas projects in the world.

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welcome back to cnn,

breaking news here on the death of moammar gadhafi. let's step back and get some perspective. we know he came into power all the way back when richard nixon lived in the white house. gadhafi was in power for 42 years. for many of those years was in direct conflict with the united states. keeping in mind libya before gadhafi was a pretty obscure country. not so under gadhafi, a man ronald reagan once described as the madman of the middle east. i want to go to jim clancy. i know you've interviewed gadhafi three times. i'm going to ask you about your interviews here in just a moment. if i may, getting to the news first there. you're right next to the international desk. to the best of your knowledge, what happened today in sirte? and also the events leading up to and including the death of moammar gadhafi. >> what we know is that the rebels had announced hours earlier they had firmly taken control of sirte and were in the process of mopping up in the area. then it appears they located a

dwelling, a house where they knew there were some loyalists inside. they assaulted that. according to their version of events, moammar gadhafi tried to flee. they confronted him. shots were fired and he resisted up until the end. they have videotape they showed of that that has been seen of that period when they bring him back to the back of a four-wheel drive vehicle. they're trying to push him up against it. later we see somebody brandishing a gold pistol that was apparently taken off him. he had long said he was going to stand up and fight until the end and that's what he did. >> i've heard different final words he uttered. do you know yet what he said as he died? >> no, we have to be very careful. i'm sure some people will want to invent the words as they heard them. there was one version of the account and was perhaps accurate saying, what's happening? who are you? what's happening? >> do we know why these fighters were taking him to misrata?

>> i would assume they were from misrata. this is just, this is really symptomatic of the problems that lie ahead for this country. that is the in accordance misrata is not exactly under the control of this national transitional council. there are rivalries at work here. tribal rivalries, economic rivalries. there are difficult days ahead for libya. this is symptomatic of that problem. they are united in the fight against gadhafi, yes. once they are gone, what will we see? this is the danger of the days ahead. >> certainly not a rosy outlook yet. i think the president described it as a long and winding road ahead as the ntv transitions into a democratic government. i will see you next hour. you interviewed moammar gadhafi three times. meantime though, larry king interviewed gadhafi a couple of years ago. he will join me live to tell me about what the former dictator was really like when the cameras

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live pictures in tripoli. we are coming up on 8:30 in the evening in libya. as night as fallen, that has not quelled any of the celebrations. there libyans across multiple cities celebrating the death of the 42-year tyrannical dictator, moammar gadhafi. fireworks, i'm told as well. fireworks celebrating this day. this historic day in libya's history. cnn's larry king interviewed moammar gadhafi two years ago when the libyan leader visited new york. some perspective here. this was after the hus normalized relations with libya. he had agreed to dismantle his

weapons of mass destruction. let's just listen to your questions and the colonel's answer. >> what's your proudest achievement? >> translator: establishment on the emergence of the people's authority. and laying down the cornerstone for the new era. the era of the masses. >> larry king, live in los angeles. was he lucid? >> there was something weird about that day. first we taped mahmoud ahmadinejad, then chavez. wet the set all set up. he changed the whole set. he didn't like the colors. then he went back in. then some men came out and they introduce him. even though we are sitting around the technicians and they

say, and now, brother leader and he walked in. and then the weird part, we talked for ten minutes in english. and then suddenly this other guy sits down. and i said who is that? he said my interpreter. i said but you speak english. he said yes, but i feel safer with an interpreter. >> safer. what is that supposed to mean? he was fearful of speaking in english to you? >> sometimes he did speak english. you know, he would cut into the interpreter and speak english. it was just -- the whole setting was very weird. the techs sitting around were weer weird. >> what was his entourage like? >> i would say ten. there were four principal body guards who came out. they actually do say, ladies and gentlemen, even though we're just camera men and director sitting around eating fritos. ladies and gentlemen, brother

leader. >> wow! that's quite the entrance. >> he walked in with a cape and everything. the stark difference is the younger gadhafi, you see, he was a dynamic, attractive, you could see vibrant leader. i sensed none of that in the gadhafi in late 2009 at all. no vibe rance. he had that weird suggestion. his cure for the middle east was israelstine. that they would entwined in one country called israelstine. and he said he would be happy to help them do that. >> let me play a little more of that interview. we remember the infamous tent pitching moment, right? in new york. and i want to play this part of the interview. you talked to him about who would succeed him. let's listen. >> do you have thoughts on who might succeed you? >> translator: i gave up power

or authority since 1977. once this was established the state of the masses was established, the people's authority was also established. ever since that date, i am not in power anymore. >> so you are not the leader of your country. >> translator: i am the leader of the revolution. not the leader of the country. >> what did he mean by that? >> i have no idea. >> okay. just double-checking. you didn't know either. >> they're acting like they overthrew a leader but he was saying it is still an ongoing revolution, i guess. >> and then u.s. leaders, they compared him to a jack in the box. this sort of annoyance who would pop up from time to time. then you would shove him back in. how do you think he managed to survive for so long? >> that part is amazing. he did shift a lot. remember, the time when he gave up those weapons, he was hailed

by the american administration. and a new era of peace. and that he had taken a bold step and that other nations that are harboring thoughts like iran, of nuclear weaponry, or to look to what gadhafi and what libya had done. so there was an erraticism to him. maybe he was losing it, as they say. that statement itself. i am not the leader. i am the leader of the revolution. i am not the leader of my country so there is no one to follow me because i'm not -- i'm not a person to be followed. it was all strange. there's so much to know about him that maybe we'll never learn. he is a character in history. >> is there anyone, you have talked to so many people. is he just, can you compare him to anyone? or he is just in a league of his own? >> well put. a league of his own. there are certain people that

come along historically that there is just no one like them. there is no fidel castro. there is no moammar gadhafi. >> wow! larry king, biff let you go, was there any other moment when the cameras weren't rolling that you want to share other than the grand entrance and his entourage? >> that the whole thing was etheirial. we were looking around. fareed zakaria was there. he kept looking around and thought it was weird. >> he said he did not appear lucid. he said he totally appeared on drugs. that's why i asked you that. i'm not an expert. maybe it was drugs. he did speak to me in english before it and he sounded more lucid in english. neighbor drugs sent him spiraling into his own language. >> larry king, good to have you back on the show. and thanks for sharing your perspective. thank you so much.

>> thank you. now that the news has broken that moammar gadhafi is dead, what does that mean for the nato operation in libya? we'll talk about that coming up next. what's going on here? hey, whats up guys? this is not how witness protection works! when we set you up with that little hardware store we didn't intend for your face to be everywhere. but fedex office makes it so easy. not only do they ship stuff, they print flyers, brochures -- everything i need to get my name out there. that's the problem. now we need to give you a third identity. you're paul matheson. and you're gonna run your business into the ground. erik gustafson would never do that! there is no erik gustafson. hey that's erik gustafson!!! there is no erik gustafson!!!!! [ male announcer ] small business solutions. fedex. solutions that matter.

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i want to turn to the pentagon, to our correspondent. chris lawrence, now that we know that moammar gadhafi is dead, certainly the end of a chapter in libya. my question is this. does this officially bring an end to the war? does this mean nato bombing campaign, done. >> technically no, brooke. we expect that to happen tomorrow or the next day. a senior official was telling us nato's top military commander is just a day or two away from calling a special session of nato to address ending the military role in libya. we're told that he is looking at key pieces of intelligence to

make that decision. one, does that ntc now control the city of sirte? nato believes the answer to that is yes. another is do gadhafi loyalists have the capability to launch a significant counter attack? nato believes the answer to that is no. we do expect that to happen in the next day or two. >> what about the international criminal court indictment? certainly the case against moammar gadhafi is now dropped. what about his family members also under indictment? >> well, you know, we have not been able to confirm this but there are reports out there that several of gadhafi's sons are now dead as well. we know that there was an indictment as well against abdullah, his intelligence chief. so that's one person who could still be out there. but there's been a lot of pushback among african nations against the international criminal court. all of the icc's current investigations and prosecutions are against african leaders.

and there's a sense among a lot of african leaders that this is directed against africa. sort of a neo colonial attack. so it remains to be seen how much they would press forward with some of these prosecutions. >> about it sounds like back to the original question, 28 to 48 hours is when we should have some idea. thank you so much from the pentagon. and obviously, everyone hearing this news today including u.s. secretary of state, she was actually in tripoli, libya, just a couple days ago. she's been in afghanistan, headed to pakistan. we have this behind the scenes video of the secretary of state the moment she was hand that had blackberry. the moment she found out that gadhafi reports at the time that he was dead. [ male announcer ] it's simple physics...

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tell your doctor your medical history and find an arthritis treatment for you. visit celebrex.com and ask your doctor about celebrex. for a body in motion. we heard from the president at the tip top of the hour saying we can definitively say the gadhafi regime has come to an end. i want to eavesdrop for a moment. this is jay carney addressing the media in the white house daily briefing. >> that is the approach he took here. it is the approach he applies as commander-in-chief. yes? >> the president mentioned the inevitable end of the iron fist. does the president believe it sends a message to sirte? >> the president believes that syria's leader has lost his

legitimacy to rule. the violence he has perpetrated against his own people is unacceptable. i think it is fair to say the events of this entire year in that region of the world have spoken more dramatically than any individual could about where the future lies in that region. and it is a future that lies with the youth of the region and those who are demanding greater democracy, greater accountability from their governments, greater freedom. that's as true in syria as it is in libya. >> will the president deepen support for the libyans? >> we remain committed as the president said to libya and to the libyan people. we will work with our international partners to further assist libya as they make this transition. as the president said, libya's future is obviously

undetermined. there is a long and winding road ahead for libya. what we have witnessed today and what we have witnessed over the past several months is the libyan people taking control of their country and putting themselves in a position to create a better future for the young people in libya and future generations of libyans. there are no guarantees as to what that future will look like. but they are in a far better place now because of what they achieved with our assistance and with nato's assistance. and that makes us a very good day. >> yes. >> to follow up, what will the u.s. be doing to then libyans through this boss he is? i know there are a lot of state department personnel on the ground there. very few military personnel guarding the u.s. embassy. what exactly can the u.s. do and will the u.s. do? >> i think it is a little

premature to get into specific forms of assistance. i would refer you to the state department for the kinds of assistance we've already provided. >> [ inaudible ]. >> no question. i don't have a lot of information about what kind of assistance we'll be providing libya in the future. beyond what we've already announced in terms of, as you mentioned, personnel on the ground, our embassy, and our efforts to, related to security. going forward, we will as the president said, be committed to helping libya together with our international partners. helping the libyan people make this important transition. >> i understand nato tomorrow will talk about what next or whether to end the mission? can you tell us anymore about that? >> i think it is clear the nato mission is coming to an end. i'll leave it to nato to

formally declare that. but the mission that was outlined in the united nations security council resolution was very clear. which was to protect the libyan people from violence perpetrated by forces associated with the gadhafi regime. not just because of the announcement of gadhafi's death but because of the successful taking of sirte and other areas, most of libya is now under control of rebel forces, under control of the tnc. and that obviously bears on the nato mission. it bears on the security of the libyan people. but i will leave it to nato to make announcements about that. let me move it back a little bit. yes, sir. >> [ inaudible ] dangerous

materials. can you elaborate on that? >> as you know, and we have talked about before, the united states is committed to helping libya security its conventional weapons stockpiles, including the recovery, control and disposal of shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles. in the wrong hands, these systems also known as man portable air defense systems know or man pads can pose a substantial threat to civil aviation. we welcome the leadership of the tnc on this issue. the tnc has made a formal request for u.s. support and we are fully committed to expanding our efforts. as you know, and this is previously announced, since april, the u.s. activities include $3 million in aid to mag international and the swiss operation. the ngos that have been working, to clear ordnance.

$2.75 million to fund our quick reaction force, citizen technical specialists who have been on the ground in libya since early sxept ongoing consultations with regional governments and our internationals partners to build a coordinated approach to this shared security challenge. in cooperation with the tnc, our team on the ground have already disabled or destroyed hundreds of man pads. we believe that thousands of man pads were destroyed during nato operations. weapons bunkers were a major target. many of these weapons are also under the control of tnc forces. >> so spokesperson carney answering questions in the briefing room making a couple of comments, reiterating what we heard from the president at the top of the hour. the one thing he said that jumped out at me was when he was asked about syria. as we look big picture, we'll talk to our correspondents on the ground to address this specifically now that essentially gadhafi is officially done. what is next as far as the

president of syria. bashar al assad. the uprisings against the government there. to quote, he said syria's leader has lost his legitimacy to rule. what will this mean for syria? we'll address that a little later in the hour. as promised, i want to show you this piece of video. this is something you really don't see very often. we have some video showing secretary of state hillary clinton this morning. the moment she heard the news about moammar gadhafi, she was shown a message. she was handed a colleague's blackberry during her stop in kabul, afghanistan. i want you to watch her reaction. >> wow! unconfirmed. yeah. unconfirmed reports about gadhafi being captured. uncon confirmed.

yeah. we've had a bunch of those before. we've had, you know, have had him captured a couple of times. >> i can add to that now. a little bit later on secretary of state clinton also told reporters, quote, if the reports are true, i think it offers a new opportunity for libya to move forward to the future. end quote. more now on the breaking story today. the death of 42-year tyrannical leader moammar gadhafi. joining me from new york, mike baker, former cia covert officer. good to have you back on. we've talked to libya a tremendous amount here together. now with the news of gadhafi's death in or near his own home town. just have to ask, what's your reaction to the news? >> well, it is obviously a day for celebration. but i think starting tomorrow morning, they have to get foerksed on the more difficult part of this. carrying out a revolution when you've got one target that everybody can rally around is one thing. then going into this next phase

of actually trying to quickly ensure that there's stability,, oh that they don't descend into some type of revenge and retribution situation. the tribes that were aligned with gadhafi and then creating a government. we have to remember that for the 42 years that gadhafi was in power, he maintained complete control by not having effective government institutions. so they have got a tremendous amount of work to do. aside from again, just trying to ensure that the over 140 tribes and clans that make up libya can can work together, or at least not work at odds. >> sure. you have the ntc. the interim government. you have the libyan people. then you have presumably a number of still gadhafi loyalists. and i just remember off the top of my head speaking live to someone. anonymously in libya some months

ago and she told me she doesn't even know what democracy means. how do you instill democracy in a nation that has not seen it? >> right. and we've seen that in iraq and afghanistan. you're trying to sell something that they don't understand. and i think what we need to do is be very mindful of the lessons that we learned. hopefully learned in iraq. >> such as? >> including, shortly after saddam hussein was captured. this tendency, once the coalescing moment is over, once that individual is captured, then you have this massive jump into the pool. and you've got a lot of sharks looking to take up a lot of territory and turf. there will be some power struggles. we don't want to be under the misguided perception that somehow the ntc, the national transitional security council either strong enough or commands enough weight in libya among the various tribal factions, that somehow they'll all coalesce around the ntc.

i think there's some real concerns. they've got some real thing going for them that separate them from iraq. they've got vast oil reserves, a relatively small population and importantly, it is not a religiously diers population. they're overwhelmingly sunni. they don't have overwhelmingly strong potential leaders. >> that we know of. >> i have to ask you. this is what you and i have talked so much about. the weapons. jay carney was just talking about that in the briefing. reports of weapons being pilfered from warehouses. i remember these from ben weederman, the armories. you were talking about how they could fall into the wrong hands. terrorists, insurgents. what's being done to prespren? >> i think jay carney was trying to put a positive spin on this. we've been worried about this. and there have been people in

libya at the behest of the ntc for several months trying to get a grip on the inventory. tracking down, cataloguing and securing some of the more concerning weapons. particularly the shoulder fired systems out there. but it would be incredibly naivete point to believe that somehow pretty significant quantities have not fallen already into the wrong hands. >> mike baker, thank you so much for coming on. we'll follow that story here on cnn. thank you. next to mark kimmett. he joins me from mclean, virginia. and general, i know when you were at the state department your primary focus was arms in the world with gadhafi wrong, and i'm going to guess we don't know the answers yet. what happens with this nato mission, next. general, can you hear me? >> i can.

i'm sorry. you said what happens with nato next? >> i'm saying with regard to this mission work regard to libya, ntc, the transition. how do we pull out? what's our role going forward. >> right. >> first of all, nato is probably going to have a change of mission quite soon. there's obviously no longer a need for a no-fly zone. as your previous guest indicated, there are reasons for nato to continue to stay involved in some capacity. either as nato or as part of the u.n. effort. but there are still ms problems to be dealt with. not the least is the man pads, the shoulder fired weapons that he was referring. to as well as the proliferation of weapons throughout the country. if this country will move from being a war zone a secular democracy, there is a lot of work that needs to be done on the security side and nato can help in various ways. >> how? can you be more specific in terms of ways nato can help moving forward? >> sure.

if the libyan government, the transitional government requested, they could help. as part of the disarmament process. obviously there is no need for all these groups to continue to carry weapons since the gadhafi loyalists are no longer a threat. that has to be a very methodical process of disarming the population, making sure the weapons are in the right hands, not in everybody's hands. there's going to be a security requirement in libya in the future. what is that military going to look like? it needs to be a military now that is responsive to the legitimately elected government. not to a dictator. that takes training. that takes a culture change within the military. nato can be part of that as well. >> looking ahead though, and this is something i also just addressed with my previous guest. obvious obstacles or challenges as potential rifts between gadhafi loyalists and those, i guess we shouldn't say rebels. members of the government now,

potential for revenge killings. we saw in iraq, sectarian violence. this would be tribal. is that a valid concern? >> it's absolutely a valid concern. one of the ways that gadhafi stayed in power was by using groups against each other on many different levels. if you take a look inside of libya right now, there are geographic separations between those in the east, those in the west. there are ideological differences between islamists and the secularists. there's the loyalists to gadhafi. there are those that fought in the revolution. there are former terrorist groups such as the libyan islamic fighting group. all these different organizations need to be brought under some umbrella and a recognition that there is only one government inside of libya. that's the transitional government, eventually the elected government. but if the international community doesn't help the

transitional national council bring the country together, there is a significant chance that all the efforts that have brought us through today can fall apart in the weeks and months to come. >> they have to have international help, i think, is what i'm hearing you same brigadier general mark kimmitt. i want to remind what you it was like during the volatile last months of the revolt. journalists include many of our own. do you remember this story? trapped in the tripoli hotel by gadhafi loyalists. they were holed up in this hoeflt many feared they might be used as pawns in the end game of the crumbling jeex gunmen wouldn't let them leave the hotel. remember this moment. we wanted to replay this. matthew described this whole situation. >> reporter: a lot of the government downstairs, the gadhafi loyalists have been very sensitive about us filming them. i'm reluctant to go downstairs in case i inadertently at this

moment broadcast the face of one of them which they might take exception to. i'm being quite careful. i'm staying up here in the corridor as much as possible. ♪ with the lowest nationalpl. ♪ ...and copaysas low a. ♪ ...saving on medicare pr. ♪ so you're free to focus os that really matter. call humana at 1-800-808-4003. or go to walmart.com for details. new fiber one 80 calories... ...with its sweet honey taste, 40% daily value of fiber... ...and 80 calories per serving... ...you may want to tell a few friends. ♪ or all of them. ♪ i'll go get my bowl. [ female announcer ] new fiber one 80 calories.

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a little rapid fire for you today. libyan leader moammar gadhafi has been killed. i want to warn you, this next video you'll see is graphic. fair warning. this was obtained by al jazeera. it shows gadhafi's body on a stretcher. hundreds of people took to the streets in celebration in tripoli square. martyr square as it has been renamed. once news of gadhafi's death was revealed. meanwhile nato tells cnn, it will call a meeting to discuss ending its operations in libya very shortly. in other news, all but one of

the animal released from that private farm on tuesday in ohio have been accounted for. 49 were killed. six have been rescued, taken to the columbus zoo. the county sheriff matt lutz said while a monkey may be on the loose, it is possible one of the big cats on the farm might have eaten it. an autopsy has confirmed the owner shot and killed himself after releasing those animal. a man taking part in the protest in greece has died. hospital officials tell cnn he died of cardiac arrest. this come during the second day of thousands protesting planned austerity measures to combat the country's massive get will include job loss. police fired tear gas and stun grenades in an effort to break up the crowds. and prosecutors in the involuntary manslaughter trial of michael jackson's doctor conrad murray know they are expected to wrap up their case today. on wednesday, anesthesiologist testified that jackson most likely died because his tongue blocked