tell. but the fact that you're in the field you are in and you project the energy you project, you would not be consistent with a last born. >> i am a last born. >> you are a last born. >> that's interesting that you would guess that. >> last borns have charm, they have charisma, they really project well. >> the scrappy kid in the playground. >> exactly. >> jeffrey, appreciate it. >> thank you for having me. >> youngest and dumbest, not bad. "ac 360" starts now. a smart show. erin, thanks very much. we begin tonight keeping them honest. presidential candidate rick perry is all of a sudden playing coy about where president obama was born, flirting with birtherism. that's right, birtherism. playing games with something we thought was finally, mercifully put to rest months ago. it began over the weekend in "parade" magazine. when asked, governor, do you believe that president barack obama was born in the united states? governor perry says, quote, i have no reason to think otherwise. the interviewer points out that's not a definitive yes.

the governor says, well, i don't have a definitive answer because he's never seen my birth certificate. the interviewer points out this is an odd answer, but you, you've seen his. which governor perry reports, i don't know. have i? you don't believe what's been released? i don't know. i had dinner with donald trump the other night. the governor said, and i quote, i don't have any idea. it doesn't matter. he's the president of the united states. he's elected. it's a distractive issue. keeping them honest, if it's such a distractive issue to use governor perry's own words, then why bring it up? >> i said it's a good/to keep alive. donald at got to have some fun. >> it sounds like you really do have some doubt about it. >> i haven't seen his -- i haven't seen his grades. my grades ended up on the front page of the newspaper. so if we're going to show stuff, let's show stuff. but that's all a distraction.

i mean, i get it. i'm really not worried about the president's birth certificate. it's fun to poke at him a little bit and say, hey, how about, let's see your grades and your birth certificate. >> so he says he's doing it to have a little fun but it doesn't really matter, but hey why not stir a little insinuation into the mix such as the president's grades. the suggestion in a nutshell weren't good enough for him to get into columbia law school where his classmates elected him head of the law review. we do know that he graduated from harvard with high honors in the top 10% of his class. late today perry was asked again this time by cnn's jim acosta what he really believes and again governor perry did not provide a definitive answer. >> i'm just curious, what will it take to convince you that the president was born in this country and do you have any plans for -- >> i'll cut you off right there. that is one of the biggest distractions that there is going. we need to be talking about jobs. somebody want to see my birth certificate, i'd be happy to

show it to them. but the fact is that is a distraction. >> keeping them honest, it's a distraction that the governor himself revived with no basis in fact, none. campaign initially put out this short form certification of live birth, exact same document anyone in hawaii gets and can be used to get a driver's license and passport. donald trump claim head had sent detectives to hawaii to investigate. no one ever found any evidence he actually did. we did, however, send gary tuchman to look into the trump claims and find the facts. he spoke to people at hawaii's health department including a former director who had inspected the original long form birth certificate. >> has anyone else looked at the certificate. >> the registrar has seen it as well. alvin onaka, he's the chief registrar for the state. he's the one that took me to see the documents. >> you are a registered republican? >> at the present time, yes.

>> and work for a republican governor. >> yes, i did. >> and you still say that the birth certificate of this democratic president is authentic? >> absolutely. >> so gary found nothing unusual, no sign of conspiracy, no sign either of trump's so-called investigators. in fact, no evidence of anything, absolutely anything out of the ordinary about president obama's birth records. final thl year in an effort to end the saga for once and for all, the white house made a special request and obtained a copy of the long form birth certificate. and that seemed to work. but trump raising doubts again. and inexplicably flirting with trump's birtherism. >> you associate yourself with a nutty guy like that and you damage yourself. i know he's trying to cultivate all of donald trump trying to get his endorsement, but this is not the way to go about doing it because it starts to marginalize you in the minds of some you need to get the election. >> polling appears to bear him

out. according to a recent fox news survey, just 6% say a trump endorsement would make them more likely to support a candidate. 62% said it would make no difference. a sharp warning tonight from jeb bush telling "the washington post" jennifer rubin, quote, republican candidates should categorically reject the notion that president obama was not born in the unite. it's a complete distraction from the failed economic poll sis of the president. joining us right now ari fleischer, now on twitte twitter @arifleischer and pollster for the obama campaign cornell belcher. what does it say about governor perry and his campaign that he's tipping his hat to a repeatedly disproven conspiracy theory? >> it tells me if he really wants to do well and run for presidency, he needs to up his game and focus more on the issue that counts, the economy. today is an important day for governor perry, he announced the new flat tax, but he's taking attention away from his own idea, but this foolish issue about where barack obama was born.

anderson, it's a waste of time. he's an american, he's our president. let's get on with the issues. >> in a way does this help president obama with independents if such a high profile republican contender is attempting to play to the fringe of his party on this madeup issue? >> well look, no, it doesn't help president obama very much at all because, frankly -- because frankly, we'd rather be talking about his tax plan today than talking about the birther issue because i think that's an area where i think we can go after him on. i think the birther issue, look, there's a certain percentage of their base who want to delegitimize the president. however, i'm going to agree with ari at this point. that's not going to get him back in this race. just as a political professional, not as a democrat or republican, it's as painful to see him shoot himself in the foot time and time again when he came into this race with such fanfare and people thought he would challenge mitt romney. right now he's in single digits. you see why he's in single

digits. he needs to run a much better campaign if he's going to challenge mitt romney oh, and i'm sorry herman cain for this nomination. >> anderson, there's a deeper issue here, too, and that's for too long in american politics -- and i saw it from the other end -- people try to delegitimize their foes. one thing if you oppose somebody on policy, another thing to say that they're a liar or that they're illegitimate, they did not win the election or that he's not an american citizen. this is destructive to the body politic. we should be able to clash on ideology, clash on issues but don't question the other person's motive or legitimacy. i didn't like it when people did it to george bush and i don't like it when people do to barack obama. i want to beat him on ideology and issues, not things like this. >> let's stop talking about the whole birther thing. even repeating the whole kind of history of it is just -- we're so beyond it, it feels like. but interesting that it's suddenly back now with rick perry. i do want to turn to rick perry's tax plan that he announced today.

the flat tax is not a new concept. steve forbes, who endorsed rick perry, has been talking about it for years. what do we need to know about it? what should people know? >> what you need to know when you look at the plan today is what you don't know because that's what all the tax policy people here in washington have been asking all day long. what do they know about this? the fundamental claim of the governor is that it will lower taxes for everyone. listen. >> families in the middle and on the lower end of the economic scale will have the opportunity to get ahead. you know, taxes will be cut across all income groups in america. >> that's a big, big claim, anderson. let's look at some of the facts here. certainly under his plan it looks like there would be lower taxes for wealthier people, lower corporate tax rates for companies, no tax on dividends or capital gains, no inheritance tax. they tend to favor people who have a lot of money. they are the ones who benefit

from those things. what about everybody else? that's a different matter. he's talking about a 12,500 exemption before you pay taxes. that's higher than we currently have. so you can argue that's better than people at the lower end of the spectrum. two parents and one child, they easily go over $36,000 before they start paying income tax. then he talked about a 20% flat rate over that. the problem here -- when i say the part we don't know, for all of the 95% we know here, the 5% could have tremendous details and that could make a big difference. what kind of breaks do people lose at the lower end of the scale? things like the earned income tax credit. do they still get credit for that in the long run? there are many, many details left in this. bottom line when we judge this one, is this really a case of it being at best true but incomplete, big emphasis on the incomplete, anderson. >> tom, thanks very much. back with the panel, cornell belcher and ari fleischer. is this a strong move by

governor perry? >> it is and here's why. what you're seeing on the republican side from perry and cain and to a lesser degree mitt romney is a desire to fundamentally change how washington is doing its business, to throw out the existing tax code which doesn't work, full of loopholes and anti-growth and replace it with something that encouraging economic growth to lift everybody up. it breaks from the stale debate we had in the '80s and '90s should you get this distribution or that distribution and focuses on how does the country grow with a tax code that encourages entrepreneurialship and job creation. that's a fresh debate to be in. that's what i like about the republican proposals. as for the ideas what about the specifics, et cetera, we know that those get ironed out whoever the new president is with a republican congress, that's when you pay attention to the detail. this is a directional move and the direction is a fundamentally new tax code. >> and cornell, how do democrats respond to that? because whether cain's plan or perry's plan both on the appeal

as being simple and offering change. >> this is what we'd rather be talking about because it is fundamentally wrong on the economics but it is also wrong when you look at the values of it. at a time when middle class america is shrinking, and a time where this country was built on the ideals of shared responsibility, shared sacrifice, what the republicans are saying is let's move our responsibility and accountability from the wealthiest americans and place it squarely on the backs of the middle class. you see public polling where 70% of americans are saying let's raise taxes on the middle class, republicans are saying, no, let's not raise taxes on the middle class. let's lower their taxes. that's a place where democrats want the battle to be. >> ari, how do you respond to that? >> well, the purpose of the tax code should be to raise the revenue so the government can pay its bills. where we've gotten off track is the tax code has become so rilgded with redistributionist

programs and sacred cows that everyone is scratching each other's back and the country is broken with debt. we need a new tax code that gets rid of the muddle and focuses on helping people to make money and get a job and have economic growth. we're so far off that track. i remember when bill clinton ran in 1992. he ran on a middle class tax cut. never defined it. he ran on end welfare as we know it. never said how. and established him as a different kind of democrat without defining those policies. what you're hearing in this year's debate is that republicans are really the party of fundamental change and president obama is the one who really is defending the status quo that brought us the current economy and the tax mess that we have. that's a great debate to be in. >> interesting, you're basically, cornell, he's basically using, it seems flip, of what the last election was saying this is a change election but the change now favors the republican. >> and i love it. i think it's going to be a really hard sell for republicans to explain to americans how, in

fact, doubling down on the policies that got us down in this mess, cutting away regulations on big corporations, gutting environmental protection agencies, how these policies, cutting taxes even further for the wealthiest -- raised for rich people, how these policies of the bush era in fact represent change. i got to tell you, this is a debate we relish having because it doesn't represent change at all. it's what got us in this mess in the first place. >> there's a new poll showing cain over mitt romney, rick perry has dropped to fifth place. national polls doesn't tell us about a race that could hinge on early states. but i want to play for viewers who haven't seen it, this rather interesting herman cain web video that a lot of people are talking about. the man you see on it is his chief of staff. take a look. >> i really believe that herman

cain will put united back in the united states of america. and if i didn't believe that i wouldn't be here. we've run a campaign like nobody's ever seen. but then america's never seen a candidate like herman cain. ♪ i am america ♪ one voice united we stand ♪ i am america >> what do you make of that, cornell? >> best ad ever. best ad ever. >> was that a mistake? >> i got to feel that ari and i are going to be in complete agreement on this one. that ad, that out tells me this, it tells me the herman cain campaign doesn't have any real infrastructure. because there's no way that campaign got green lighted as it went up the process. there's no way a real campaign green lights that ad. look, nothing plays better to the hearts and minds of america than in weird guy smoking cigarettes directly on camera. it is unbelievably bad.

and you have a hard time taking herman cain seriously at this point. at some point he's got to turn the corner and hire real professional people because he's leading in the polls. >> ari, what do you make of the ad? he told me the other week, he was hiring staffers. have we seen them yet? >> i asked the herman cain infrastructure about that today. they told me their goal is to redefine politics. those are their words. this ad is certainly not conventional. this is someone with a total outsider perfective would do. >> the smoking, do you think it's an accident -- >> i want to hear what other people think. it doesn't have to be the way it's always been in washington. but this is also not an ad. as you pointed out, this is on the web. they haven't spent a penny on real advertising and they've got everybody talking about this. it reinforces he's different, he's the outsider. he's got to take that and build on it. i'll give him credit for this. it's a weird ad, but i'll give him credit. >> i spent a lot of time in

editing rooms, i wonder if that was a mistake leaving the shot of the smoking in if no one double-checked it. >> what is he smiling at? this country is chock-full of suckers because a couple months ago i was selling pizzas now i'm running for the nomination for the republican party. i want to ask ari a question, do they see that ad and think this is a guy we need to invest in and give money to? >> the republican establishment has very little idea what to do with herman cain. he has everyone scratching their head saying how real is he. he has to prove if he's real or not. he does have a chance. he will stand up to political correctness. that does resonate in republican circles. we need a sense of somebody who is blunt and tells it straight and is not politically correct. that's why cain has done as well as he has done up to date. >> there's a big support from guys standing outside of buildings. you know when you walk in an

office building and it smell of cigarettes because everyone is outside smoking. >> i'm going to have a smoke. >> thanks very much. let us know what you think -- we don't encourage that sort of thing on this program. i'll be tweeting tonight. up next president obama's plan to help out homeowners. what about the big batch of promises made? we're keeping them honest. where there is hope, there is life. we'll show you a little girl's rescue after days in the rubble of turkey's killer earthquake. later, another tragic death. was it linked to a book that advocates harshly punishing children in the name of god. >> i just ask you, did you love this child? can you just answer that question, if you loved this child?

is life. question, if you loved this [ male announcer ] this is lara. her morning begins with arthritis pain. that's a coffee and two pills. the afternoon tour begins with more pain and more pills. the evening guests arrive. back to sore knees. back to more pills. the day is done but hang on... her doctor recommended aleve. just 2 pills can keep arthritis pain away all day

with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lara who chose 2 aleve and fewer pills for a day free of pain. [ female announcer ] get money saving coupons at aleve.com. [ woman on radio, indistinct ] get money saving coupons ♪ bum-bum ♪ bum-bum, bum-bum, bum-bum ♪ ♪ ai, ai, ai ♪ bum-bum ♪ bum-bum, bum-bum ♪ [ ice rattles rhythmically ] ♪ [ imitates guitar noise ] the redesigned, 8-passenger pilot. smarter thinking. from honda.

this is not how witness protection works! when we set you up with that little hardware store we didn't intend for your face to be everywhere. but fedex office makes it so easy. not only do they ship stuff, they print flyers, brochures -- everything i need to get my name out there. that's the problem. now we need to give you a third identity. you're paul matheson. and you're gonna run your business into the ground. erik gustafson would never do that! there is no erik gustafson. hey that's erik gustafson!!! there is no erik gustafson!!!!! [ male announcer ] small business solutions. fedex. solutions that matter. keeping them honest tonight, a new plan that claims to help millions of home owners hurt in the housing meltdown. the obama administration announces a federal rule changes allowing people whose homes are wort less than their mortgages to refinance as long as they have a good record making payments already. it will be about $2500 a year. turns out the plan only affects

a small percentage of homeowners in need of help and leaves out 3.5 million who are behind on their mortgage payments. it is merely the latest in a long line of program, ten so far, that have not lived up to their promises. not even close. here's president obama two years ago. >> through this plan, we will help between 7 million and 9 million families restructure or refinance their mortgages so they can afford -- avoid foreclosure. >> that was the promise back then. since then the administration's fallen far, far short of that goal. we did some checking with the treasury department on the two biggest programs. instead of between 7 and 9 million, the actual figure of families who qualified for assistance is 1.6 million. there are many reasons homeowners complain about banks giving them the runaway. critics say the entire mortgage relief program was set up to favor banks over homeowners. whatever the reason, millions have not gotten the help they say they need. according to "the washington post," out of the $50 billion the obama administration said it

would use to help home owners only 2.4 million has actually been spent. jessica yellin on what's in this new plan and chief business correspondent ali velshi. what's in this new plan? >> the new plan targets homeowners who are considered current on their payments but their home values have plummeted so much they're under water. it lets them refinance so they can take advantage of the historically low interest rates with no credit check, no add-on fees and hassle of an appraisal. and they're current and have only missed one payment in the last year. one thing i'd note, the homeowners most affected are in states where the bottom has fallen out of the housing market, nevada, arizona, florida, which also happen to be key states the president is targeting to win in 2012. >> i mean, if some are saying this new plan won't actually help the housing market all that much, why is the white house doing it? you're saying politics is behind

it? >> well, there is a large part of this that is politics because these are the states the president does have to win in 2012. there's also the larger message that the vision thing, as george h.b. bush, the other president, used to say. right now the president is focused on convincing the voters that he has a positive plan for the future to get out of our economic mess. as you pointed out, to date, first of all, housing is a key component of that. and to date, his housing proposals have been a bit anemic. he does need to roll out some housing proposals that can work. he can do this without congress. but to be fair to the administration as well, fannie and freddie don't report to the administration. that's who oversees this nor do the banks. it has taken them a while, fannie and freddie, to agree to these rules and taken the economy getting worse and worse and worse for all the parties to come together to agree to this as well. >> ali, is that why it took so

long? fannie and frdy not agreeing to the rules? >> and the banks. jessica points it out that the banks don't report to the administration, nor does fannie and freddie. if they'd been smart about this, the banks themselves more than 2 1/2 years ago before we heard that clip from president obama would are said, let's do everything we can to keep these people in their homes because the alternative is they're out of their homes and we're stuck with this inventory of houses with prices continuing to go down. that's the situation that banks are in. the administration when president obama said 7 to 9 million families, and even back then we weren't certain that was really true, the banks just didn't take up the offer. they didn't say, let's refinance. they were fearful that if they did and homeowners didn't pay back, they'd have to buy those loans back from fannie and freddie. that's the difference with this plan. they don't have to do that. but still the numbers, 11 million people are underwater which means they have a mortgage bigger than the value of their house. 3.5 million are three months or longer into foreclosure. 900,000 and maybe 1.6 million.

it won't solve the problem. but all we can do is tinker around the edges. >> for those people are there guarantees this is going to work? >> if you keep paying. so this is for people who, generally speaking, still have their jobs, who have made payments over the last 12 months. if you do that, that's a deal. if you're in position to take advantage of this, this is an excellent deal. it takes that much inventory off the market or prevents inventory from being on the market which helps all of us who either had homes or are looking to sell homes. doesn't help if you're a home buyer. it could help but only around the edges. this is up to the banks. >> is this it? are there going to be more mortgage relief plans from the white house? >> according to my sources, they're working on a plan that will take a huge -- i mean, massive -- number op foreclosed houses off the market which would clearly have much broader implications for the housing market but that's still in the

works. >> thanks so much. still ahead, moammar gadhafi is buried, finally, but where? the latest in the gravesite and libya's new leaders. and the survivors of turker's devastating earthquake. also a follow-up on ungodly discipline. parents punishing their children so severely it actually kills them. yet another tragic death. >> can you tell us what happened to your daughter? what do you think god thinks about this case, sir?

we're going to head on into the interview. evan, sandy . . . evan .. what pushed you toward the explorer? it was less expensive. better technology inside. there was stuff that we have in our car that i didn't even know existed. how does your music gear fit in there? it fits perfectly. i mean, i got a keyboard, acoustic guitar, merchandise, cds to sell and it all just fits like a nice game of tetris. what would you say to a friend who's skeptical about buying a ford. do you want to borrow my keys. the other office devices? they don't get me. they're all like, "hey, brother, doesn't it bother you that no one notices you?" and i'm like, "doesn't it bother you you're not reliable?" and they say, "shut up!" and i'm like, "you shut up."

in business, it's all about reliability. 'cause these guys aren't just hitting "print." they're hitting "dream." so that's what i do. i print dreams, baby. [whispering] big dreams.

in turkey tonight rescuers are working around the clock in the search for survivors of sunday's devastating earthquake. more than 450 people were killed, 1300 injured in a 7.2 quake that demolished the eastern part of the country. nearly 2300 buildings that stood on sunday morning are now rubble. among thel a health services building, part of a hospital, even now there are aftershocks that are rattling the region. it's one of the poorest regions in turkey. some survivors are too scared to return to their homes. a lot are sleeping on the streets tonight despite near freezing temperatures. today a bright spot in all the misery. a dramatic rescue that's given new hope to all those praying for the survival of their own loved ones. >> reporter: applause erupts as one of the youngest victims of the earthquake in turkey is finally delivered to safety.

baby ezra is just 14 days old and she spent two of her 14 days trapped in the ruins of her family's apartment building. born premature, rescue workers hold an oxygen mask over her tiny face to ease her breathing. this is the man who pulled her from the brink of death. >> translator: it's an extraordinary feeling. i've been doing this job for 12 years. first time i've ever taken a living person out. >> reporter: beyond extraordinary strength for a child so young. ezra survived because of the heroism of her mother who was trapped alive with her daughter and ezra's grandmother. her mother was clutching her to her chest when rescuers cleared a path through the rubble to the little girl. >> translator: the mother put her into my hands. when we told her the baby was taken to the hospital by ambulance, she was even happier. >> reporter: ezra, whose name means purity in arabic, has started her young life

overcoming amazing odds. her rescue gives hope to turkey and people around the world praying that their loved ones will also be saved. >> diana, ezra was rescued earlier today. do we know where she is? >> she was flown to ankara with her mother. and they're apparently doing well. we spoke to the mother's brother, the uncle. the baby's doing well, she's doing well. it all seems to be good for a baby who was born three weeks premature and just survived an earthquake. >> her mother actually handed her to rescue workers while she was still trapped, right? >> exactly. basically they managed to tunnel a route through to the mother and the grandmother. apparently the grandmother was lying on top of the mother because of the way that the rubble collapsed. they had to send in a very thin rescue worker because this tunnel they managed to dig was so thin. and the mother was able to literally hand over the child to this man. and the man said, you know, i

have a son already, but the moment when the child was put into my hands, it felt like i had a second child. he was so ecstatic about the whole experience. he was able to bring the child to safety, put it in an ambulance and then go back and inform the mother and the grandmother that the baby was safe and on its way to hospital. and apparently she was ecstatic when she heard that news even though it then took another couple of hours for the rescue workers to expand the tunnel and get both of those two women out also. >> diana magna, i appreciate your time. thank you. let's check on other stories we're following tonight. susan hendrix. >> moammar gadhafi was finally buried today. a spokesman for libya's national transition council say that gadhafi and his son and assistant were buried in a secret location. in syria accusations that security forces are torturing

wounded protesters at state-run hospitals. amnesty international today said the tactic is a new and troubling trend in the months long crackdown on anti-government protesters. a recommendation today that boys as young as 11 be vaccinated against the human papilloma virus. this from an advisory committee for the centers for disease control. hpv is the number one sexually transmitted disease in the u.s. and is linked to cancer. the vaccine is already recommended for young girls. one of steve jobs' final visions may soon be on its way. according to multiple reports, before his death this month, jobs had finally cracked had built an apple tv one that will sync wirelessly with other apple devices. a couple that can prove they can literally weather storm. their wedding turned to chaos when a monster sandstorm crashed the ceremony. it came in quick. luckily the judge pronounced them husband and wife before he all ran for cover.

so they are married. >> yikes. that's very memorable. serious stuff. "360" following up on our ungodly discipline investigation. a mother and dad killed their daughter. did they do it in the name of god? did a book play a role? >> what is your emergency? >> yes. i think my daughter just killed herself. >> why do you say that? >> she's really rebellious, and she's been outside refusing to come in and she's been throwing herself all around, and then she collapsed. >> i'll tell you what happened next. the latest in the michael jackson death trial. also tonight the singer's former nurse takes the stand for the defense. whoa. whoa. how do you top great vacations?

whoa. getting twice the points on great vacations. whoa! use chase sapphire preferred and now get two times the points on travel, and two times the points on dining and no foreign transaction fees. whoa! chase sapphire preferred. a card of a different color. apply now at chasesapphire.com/preferred and here's what we did today: supported nearly 3 million steady jobs across our country... ... scientists, technicians, engineers, machinists... ... adding nearly 400 billion dollars to our economy... we're at work providing power to almost a quarter of our homes and businesses... ... and giving us cleaner rides to work and school... and tomorrow, we could do even more. cleaner, domestic, abundant and creating jobs now. we're america's natural gas. the smarter power, today. learn more at anga.us. i'm a wife, i'm a mom... and chantix worked for me. it's a medication i could take and still smoke, while it built up in my system.

[ male announcer ] along with support, chantix is proven to help people quit smoking. it reduces the urge to smoke. some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal thoughts or actions while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these, stop taking chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of depression or other mental health problems, which could get worse while taking chantix. don't take chantix if you've had a serious allergic or skin reaction to it. if you develop these, stop taking chantix and see your doctor right away as some can be life-threatening. if you have a history of heart or blood vessel problems, tell your doctor if you have new or worse symptoms. get medical help right away if you have symptoms of a heart attack. use caution when driving or operating machinery. common side effects include nausea, trouble sleeping and unusual dreams. my inspiration for quitting were my sons. they were my little cheering squad. [ laughs ] [ male announcer ] ask your doctor if chantix is right for you.

tonight on "360" following up on a story we call ungodly discipline. kids beaten, kids killed because their families say they're following the word of god. she was 7 when she was beaten to death. they believed that god wanted thel to spank lydia so hard that it hurt. an approach to discipline that many fundamentalists embrace. a training manual that's sold a million copies.

unclear how many kids whose parents follow the advice have been killed. another homicide case this time in washington state bears striking similarities to the lydia case. >> larry williamses is the husband. carrie williams the wife. together they were parents of eight. but now it's seven. the daughter they adopted from ethiopia is dead. and if the allegations are true, some say they are the parents from hell. can i just ask you, did you love this child? can you just answer that question if you loved this child? the question is did hannah die in the name of god? the williams lived in a large piece of secluded land in skagit county, washington. according to a sheriff's office affidavit, the mother said that she found hannah face down outside the house with mud in her mouth and not breathing. but there's so very much she left out. >> the date of her death was not the first day she'd been struck. >> reporter: here is what the

affidavit says. hannah had a large lump on her head and several fresh red bloody markings on her hips, knees, elbows and face. and when doctors performed hannah's autopsy, they declared the 13-year-old was abnormally thin. on the forehead was a hematoma, swollen bruise, there were abrasions on the right and left upper pelvis area, there were patterned contusions on the legs. they're investigating whether those beatings came because of biblical teachings. the other children who implicate their parents in the affidavit told investigators that hannah was often left outside in the cold as discipline because she was rebellious. she was so weakened from discipline hours in the bone chilling cold was more than she could take. but listen to the 911 call. look who she blames for her child's death. >> what is your emergency? >> yes. i think my daughter just killed herself. >> why do you say that?

>> she's really rebellious. and she's been outside refusing to come in. and she's been throwing herself all around. and then she collapsed. >> if you didn't stand exactly where you were supposed to stand, that would be considered rebellious. and you could be punished for that. >> reporter: in the affidavit, hannah's 9-year-old brother told detectives that people like his dead sister got spankings for lying and go into the fires of hell. detectives say larry williams made his son stop talking to authorities after that. we met larry williams with his attorney in court during a motion hearing. mr. williams, can you tell us what happened to your daughter? what do you think god thinks about this case, sir? among the evidence found in the house, a variety of books and videotapes by well known fundamentalist christian authors michael and debby pearl including a book called "to train up a child". >> yes. >> reporter: it's a best selling book which advocates corporal

punishment of children from infant on up. the authors of the book say the writings are guided by the teachings in the bible. >> it says that if you spare the rod you hate your child. but if you love him you chasten him timely. >> reporter: i interviewed the pearls this past summer because of a chillingly similar case. kenneth and elizabeth schatz are now in prison after killing their daughter lydia, also adopted from africa. taken from their home as evidence "to train up a child." michael ramsey is the d.a. who prosecuted the schatzes. what do you think influenced them to beat and terrorize their children? >> the book by mr. pearl. there's no doubt about that. >> let's say a 7-year-old slugs his sister. you explain to him that what he's done is violent and that that's not acceptable in society and it's not acceptable in our home. then i would take him somewhere like into his bedroom and i would tell him i'm going to give him 15 licks. >> reporter: with what?

>> probably a belt on that big a boy. i'd probably use a belt. it would be handy. i might use a wooden spoon or a piece of like plumbing supply line. >> reporter: a plumbing supply line. one of the pieces of evidence that larry williams gave to sheriff's deputies in washington state after authorities said he acknowledged he and his wife used it to strike their children. mrs. williams, do you like the book "to train up a child"? >> we have no comment today. >> reporter: can you tell us what happened to your daughter? do you still say she killed herself. >> no comment today. >> reporter: larry and carrie williams are out on bond. they've pled not guilty. they've been ordered not to talk to their surviving children who are now in foster homes. >> i don't use the term hitting. >> reporter: what's the word? >> spanking. >> reporter: prosecutors say they have no plans to pursue charges against michael and debby pearl. when i talked to the authors about the death of lydia in california, they reject parents

losing control and acting out of anger. you're not accepting any blame? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: the same sentiment they have regarding the death of hannah williams in washington. they released a statement on their facebook page which says we share in the sadness over the tragic death of hannah williams. what her parents did is diametrically opposed to what is taught in the book "to train up a child." and it continues in part, the alleged presence of the book makes it no more responsible for hannah's death than the presence of a weight loss book in the home of an overweight person is responsible for their obesity. larry and carrie williams are charged with homicide by abuse and felony assault of one of their other children. the prosecution is just twinning to methodically go through the evidence, and that includes reading "to train up a child" cover to cover. how are the other williams' kids doing? >> they're all in foster homes. one of the children just became 18. so it's not clear if he'll leave the foster home and go on his own. he can if he wants to.

but they've been ordered, the parents not to talk to these seven kids, for two reasons. one to protect the children from harm. and two because it's very likely that some of all of these children will testify against their parents and they do not want the parents trying to influence their children's testimony. >> so insidious, the idea of kids being abused in the name of god. we've done a number of these stories in different parts of the country. how big a problem do you think this really is? >> this is a big problem. we've talked to d.a.s from coast to coast, they tell us that it's very common. polls show that most americans do support spanking their children, but most americans don't bloody their children, don't pummel their children, don't seriously hurt their children. it does say in the bible not to spare the rod, but it doesn't say you should humiliate your children. it doesn't say you should bloody them. it doesn't say you should humiliate them and that's something to keep in mind. >> where are william and carrie williams staying? >> this is interesting. they can't be together because they don't want them to talk about their testimony. carrie williams, the wife, is

staying in her parents' house. larry williams is staying in the house where his whole family was, where his daughter died. many of the neighbors wanted to go on camera because they're scared but they're creeped out that he's staying in the house and mowing the lawn and they have children in the neighborhood and they know what he's alleged to have done. they're very scared of this man. >> gary, appreciate the update. coming up michael jackson's nurse on the stand. plus people with a strange obsession with the fast food sandwich end up on our ridiculist. [ male announcer ] drinking a smoothie with no vegetable nutrition?

♪ [ gong ] strawberry banana! [ male announcer ] for a smoothie with real fruit plus veggie nutrition new v8 v-fusion smoothie. could've had a v8. there's a moment where everything comes together. where there's magic. and you now understand what nature's been hiding. ♪ at dow we understand the difference between innovation and invention. invention is important. it's the beginning. it's the spark. but innovation is where we actually create value for dow, for society, and for the world. ♪ at dow, we're constantly searching for how to use our fundamental knowledge of chemistry to solve these difficult problems. science is definitive. there is a right answer out there. [ male announcer ] the same 117 elements do the fundamental work of chemistry.

♪ the difference, the one element that is the catalyst for innovation, the one element that changes everything is the human element. ♪ her morning begins with arthritis pain. that's a coffee and two pills. the afternoon tour begins with more pain and more pills. the evening guests arrive. back to sore knees. back to more pills. the day is done but hang on... her doctor recommended aleve. just 2 pills can keep arthritis pain away all day with fewer pills than tylenol. this is lara who chose 2 aleve and fewer pills for a day free of pain. [ female announcer ] get money saving coupons at aleve.com.

anderson the defense is presenting its case in the trial of michael jackson's doctor conrad murray. today one of jackson's nurses testified that he asked her for propofol or to help him find a doctor who could give it to him. the defense's theory is that michael jackson administered the fatal dose of the anesthetic to himself. in connecticut, the sentencing phase has started for the second man, this man, convicted in horrific deadly home invasion in 2007. joshua come komisarjevsky was convicted of a murder and kidnapping in a home invasion that left a mother and two daughters dead. dr. william pettitte was the only survivor. they've released the names of the casey anthony jurors. the judge imposed a three-month cooling off period out of concern for the jurors'

well-being. that period is over. a couple in long island is trying to trademark the slogan occupy wall street to put it on t-shirts and bumper stickers to sell. and that kind of misses the whole point of the protests. >> to say the least. all right. more ahead tonight on the occupy wall street protest when michael moore joins piers morgan. >> he's been railing against the fat cats for years in movies and books, michael moore is fed up. he's steaming mad. he's got company in those angry demonstrators on wall street and around the world who now agree with him. they're fed up with america's economic crisis. in a special piers morgan tonight we'll take questions from ordinary people steamrolled by foreclosures, lack of health care and other problems tonight. we're listening to america with michael moore. it should get pretty lively. >> piers, sounds interesting. cool having a live audience there. grab your gizzards. the mcrib is back. [ male announcer ] sometimes, after surgery, straining should be avoided.

colace® capsules stool softener helps ease straining to make going easier. try colace® capsules for effective, comfortable relief from occasional constipation. now you can save big on colace® capsules! go to colacecapsules.com.

here's a treat for the eyes with pretty amazing stuff. scientists call it a coral mass injection. for us it's the northern lights. shades of red, orange and green lights that dance across the night's sky. look at that. northern lights came to the deep south last night making them visible hundreds of miles farther south than they normally

would be. an extraordinary sight. these are obviously time lapsed images. if you've ever seen them in person, it is an extraordinary sight. those little lights that passing across are airplanes done in time lapse photography. all right. time now for the ridiculist. tonight we're adding the raging mcmania over mcdonald's mcrib. shout it from the rooftops, the mcrib is back. this thing comes back more often than chronic acid reflux. people are going bonkers over it. there's nary a rib to be found in the mcrib. they call it that because it sounds better than a mcpork fat. a pork patty wrestled into the shape of ribs topped with a sauce made with high fructose corn syrup, beet powder and natural smoke flavor. whatever that means. it has 500 calories and 26 grams of fat but it also has vitamin c. one milligram of vitamin c.

remember that for the next time you feel like you're getting a cold. what's the allure of the mcrib? why is there a mcrib locator where you can track sightings? in case you want to drive ten hours to get one. oh, yeah, people do that. there was an article in "the new york times" about that. maybe people want what they can't have, what's elusive or rare. loob like a full lunar eclipse or haley's vomit. it doesn't sell all year long because people get tired of it as opposed to the ennui-proof phil lay o fish. shape it into a t-bone and throw it on a bun and call it the mcsteak if they were available for a limited time only. whatever the reason, some people really do go nuts for the mcrib. others just don't get the hype. there are two kinds of people, the jack osbournes and the kelly osbournes.

>> mcrib is back. >> are you serious, jack? >> that's so good. >> you're getting excited over the mcrib? >> you know what, kelly, it's the little things that count. >> jack goes, oh, mcrib is back! >> shut up. >> you're such a [ bleep ], jack, the mcrib. >> i line those osbournes. what i meant to say when it comes to the mcrib, there's the jack and the kellys and the homer simpsons. >> one ripwich, please. >> sir, are you all right? >> that mcrib is so good. >> wherever you stand on this issue, it will all be over soon.