>> look ought. >> i look fantastic there. so slim. >> yeah. >> my three sons were excited enough that i was meeting you, the comedy god. the guy that i'm now there as a family guy character, you -- >> you just made me cool. so for that reason alone, seth macfarlane, thank you for coming on. >> pleasure. tonight a special report, "ungodly discipline." we've been investigating a deadly collision of faith and family. in the hour ahead, you're going to meet parents who believe the bible commands them to spank their children, even very young children, toddlers, spank them so hard that hurts, they cause physical pain. they call it spiritual spanking. they believe it's god's will. lidia was beaten to death in the name of god. she allegedly mispronounced a word during a home schooling session.

that was her so-called sin. >> we heard the phrase death by a thousand lashes. that is basic wla this was. >> lidia's parents plead guilty and sent to prison. michael pearl, a man whose teachings they followed is still spreading his gospel. through popular christian parenting book he wrote with his wife, to train up a child," more than a million copies have been sold. the pearls wrote it as a blueprint for raising children the way the bible commands. >> it says that if you spare the rod, you hate your child. but if you love him, you chase him timely. >> the pearls say they're not to blame for what the shats did but share the rod, spoil the child is a message that many fundamentalist christians and preachers embrace. we'll hear from some of them tonight. you'll also hear from a woman whose parents followed the pearl's teachings when growing up. they called it biblical chastisement. she calls it abuse. >> this is systemic form of brainwashing of these children. >> our investigation also led us

to a corner of christian fundamentalism that operates entirely beyond the reach of authorities. fundamentalist baptist homes of troubled teens. they say they build character and help christians find their path back to god. but some former residents describe hem as houses of horror. >> then they just bodily man handled me to the floor. and he hit me with a board as hard as he could. and i was shocked. i paddled my whole life and never hit like. that. >> i have nightmares about it all the time, like, very vivid dreams like i'm trapped inside of this house again and i can't get out. >> accusations of abuse both physical and emotional, all inflicted in the name of god. you'll hear their stories ahead. you'll also hear from the pastor who runs the home. >> we had a lot of people complain that they've been mentally and physically abused at your house. can you give us a comment about that? >> well, i would rather not. >> he wasn't happy to see us. i did answer some of our

questions. that's ahead. we begin with a case that's put michael and debbie pearl's popular christian parenting book on the defensive. it's a book familiar to many fundamentalist christians who rely on teachings to help raise their kids. until now, it didn't get much attention outside those circles. but that's chafrpnging now that little girl died. here is part one of the report. >> reporter: the small town of paradise, california, where these children lived with their parents in a fundamentalist christian home. the nine children, life in paradise was anything but. we cover up eight of their faces because they are the survivors. survivors of a violent form of discipline practiced by their parents kevin and elizabeth shots. the one face not covered is their 7-year-old adopted daughter lidia. she was killed by her parents. mike ramsey is the district attorney of back to you count gli northern california. >> we heard, you know, the

phrase death by 1,000 lashes. that's basically what this was. >> reporter: this is where the family used to live. the children's sand box is still here. so is their slide. and their tree house. but the surviving children are now in foster homes and the parents are in prison. >> violated section 273-a -- >> they plead guilty to killing lidia and seriously injuring her 11-year-old sister who almost died. authorities say kevin and elizabeth shots beat their children regularly because they believe god wanted them to. the district attorney says the shots believed -- >> to spare the rod will spoil the child and if you consider k. train your horse and can you train your dog, can you train your children. >> reporter: 7-year-old lidia suffered terribly, supposedly in the name of god. but authorities say this was torture and murder. by parents who were supposed to love and cherish their child. inside this house they found important evidence, the biblical rod that the shots had in

inside. what they were were 15 inch long plumbing supply tubes used to beat the children and also important, a book was found inside, a book that appeared to light the fuse to the deadly brutality. the book is called "to train up a child." it's author is this man on the tractor, michael pearl and his wife debbie. they consider themselves observing christians who run an organize called no greater joy ministries from their tennessee farm. >> well, i'm a preacher, minister of the gospel. >> reporter: their book, and others they've written, stacked in a warehouse on their farm, all of them, guided they say, by the teachings in the bible. >> and it says that if you spare the rod, you hate your child. but if you love him, you chase him timely. >> reporter: a rod, akortding to the pearl's manual on training children can be anything from a tree switch to a spatula. in the book they describe a rod as a magic wand. "god would not have commanded

parents to use the rod if it were not good for the child." the pearls say parents should stay in control and not act in extreme but they also declare, any spanking to effectively reinforce instruction must cause pain." let's say a 7-year-old slugs his sister. >> he would get -- a 7-year-old would get 10 or 15 licks and a formal thing. in other words, you maintain your patience. you explain to him what he has done aviolent and that is not acceptable in society and not acceptable for a home. then i would take him somewhere like into his bedroom and tell him i'm going to give him 15 licks. >> with what? probably a belt, a kid that big, a boy, probably use the belt. it would be handy. i might use a wooden spoon or a piece of, like, plumbing supply line, quarter inch in diameter. >> why not just use your hand instead of all these materials?

>> hey, look here. right here. let me show you something. does that hurt? look what it is doing to your whole body. see your hip? you don't use your hand on somebody. that is a karate chop. >> so when you use this material that it can't cause permanent pain. >> my children never had marks left on them. >> reporter: but look at the body of the daughter who was seriously injured by her parents. these are just some of her wounds. other wounds and bruises on her body and on the body of her sister lidia who died are far too graphic for us to show. lidia was so severely beaten she died of a condition usually associated with earthquakes and bombings. what do you think influenced the shots to beat their children? >> the book by mr. pearl. there is no doubt about that. [ sirens sound ] >> reporter: lidia was beaten

for seven consecutive hours. the sound of the police sirens recorded by a paradise police officer racing to the house. when he arrived, he tried to save lidia with cpr. both the parents were present. >> she, swallowed a lot of vomit. >> she was really tired. her vision was blurry. >> and listen later in the day to the seriously injured girl. >> where do you get spanked, just on the arm and your back? >> on my bottom and on my back last night, too. underneath my feet. >> underneath your feet? i'd like to take you to the hospital, okay? i probably need to bring a pot because i might throw up again. >> reporter: at the sentencing hearing, the 11-year-old who is still recovering from her serious injuries had the courage to address her parents in open court about her deceased sister. she said, why did you adopt her? to kill her? it's a heartbreaking story. kevin pleaded guilty to murder

and torture and will be in jail for at least 22 years. and elizabeth for at least 12. do you think if the shots do not read the pearl's book there would be a good chance that lidia would still be alive? >> i would think that there would be. >> we reviewed the case and we tried to find out what happened to see if there was going to be any blame pointed at us. and so we looked into it. >> when we come back, has the death of lidia shots caused the perldz to rethink any of their parenting advice? gary gets a lesson in language. >> i don't use the term hitting. >> what is the word? >> spanking. >> reporter: is there a difference? >> absolutely. >> well, he'll explain that ahead. also ahead, gary investigates disturbing allegations of har ash bus and brainwashing at a fundamentalist baptist home for troubled tines. special report, "ungodly discipline" continues in just a moment. administering her medication, and just making her comfortable. one night britta told me about a tradition in denmark,

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that in itself is a horrifying story. but the fact this her parents allegedly believe god wanted them to beat their daughter made the story even more disturbing. kevin and elizabeth shots now are serving prison sentences. they kept a controversial parenting book in their home, a book that says god wants parents to spank their children with rods and switches and rubber tubing and the spanking should be hard enough to cause physical pain. the couple that wrote the book say they are not to blame for what they did. the district attorney sees it differently. once again, here is gary tuckman. >> reporter: michael pearl is a competitive knife and tomahawk slower. he never misses the target. but it's just a hobby. his life's work is preaching. and targets what some might call extreme discipline of children. >> i've never met any well trained emotionally secure happy

creative children that weren't spanked. pearl is a minister of the gospel, a devout christian. he and his wife are best-selling authors who have written many religiously themed books. but their most popular and most controversial is a book called "to train up a child" in which they write about the need to inflict physical pain. >> i don't use the term hitting. >> reporter: what's the word? >> spanking. >> reporter: is there a difference? >> absolutely. a hand is hitting, a little switch is spanking. a wooden spoon or spatula, that is spanking. >> reporter: in the book, the pearls who live in rural tennessee declare "the rod is a gift from god, use it as the hand of god to train your children." "any spanking to effectively reinforce instruction, must cause pain." this couple believed in the pearls. kevin and elizabeth shots, parents of nine children read their book. the book was found in their

house and put in an evidence bag after the california couple pummelled one of their daughter for hours. lidia shots had been adopted died after suffering hor irving injuries all over her body. michael ramsey is the district attorney in butte county, california. >> we are talking about was and as we charged torture, torture over hours. >> reporter: this past spring the shots plead guilty to the killing of their daughter lidia. and seriously injuring her older sister. these are photos of some of the sister's wounds, the marks left by the rods, many of the images too gruesome to show. they also beat their other children. we're covering the faces of the survivors to protect their privacy. >> the book was there. it was underlined, underscored and -- >> there's no question in your mind that this book by the pearl influenced the shots to beat, brutalize and terrorize the children? >> none at all. >> reporter: no question? >> no question.

>> reporter: the pearls feel differently, saying their book rejects parents lose control and acting out of anger. so you're not accepting any blame? >> absolutely not. >> reporter: how scared would you be that there would be blame pointed at you? >> i don't think we were scared at all. there has never been a suggestion to anyone that someone's lost control because of what they read in our book. >> reporter: the district attorney clearly disagrees. he puts blame on the pearls for the tragedy. but he acknowledges that's about as far as he can go. was there ever any consideration at exploring legal charges against the pearls? >> not really. because they have a first amendment right to say awful things. >> reporter: the pearls say they feel badly for the girl who died. but are unapologetic. they're not shy about using props and humor. ♪ i'm going to spank this cnn man ♪ >> to show how they believe god wants parents to spank. >> rubbing your the spaghetti all over your head. you shouldn't have done that at 7 years of age.

>> okay. >> that hurts. and i'm 50. i mean i -- >> are there any marks on you? >> no, but you would hit a a-year-old like that? >> yeah, sure. >> reporter: the pearls say can you be too young for some physical pain. for example, when a baby bites during breast-feeding. >> i would gently pull their hair. it's enough to make them let go. >> reporter: spanking with various objects are done out of love. the pearls appear to be staying prolific with writings and preachings. they say their simultaneously writing four new books. there is no indication that any controversy slows them down. and why should it, say the pearls? they say it worked for their children and most importantly, this is what god wants. >> we don't punish our children. but we sometimes need to get their attention. >> reporter: the eight surviving shots children are now all in foster homes. they and hir sister lidia

certainly got our attention. gary tuckman, cnn, paradise, california. >> harsh discipline in the name of god. it's not just happening inside private homes like the shots and pearls. just ahead, what we uncovered about a fundamentalist baptist home for troubled teens. a facility that operates outside the oversight of regulators because of its religious affiliati affiliation. also ahead, a woman whose childhood was filled with beatings she says all in the name of god. the father was a pastor. >> these pastors are advocating a very systematic form of punishment that outside of their community would be referred to as abuse. inside the community, it's called spiritual spanking. for some, it's a lifelong passion.

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the case of lidia shots, a 7-year-old girl beat ton death by hir parents uses the question of whether parents are ugz the bible to justify their own bad parenting or misinterpreting things. you heard from christian author of a popular parenting book "to train up a child." his book says that god wants them to spank their children with rods, belts and switches and spank them hard enough to cause pain. many preachers agree with minister pearl. one example is roger voeklin, the leader of the fairhaven baptist church in indiana. here is part of an audio recording of a recent sermon he gave. >> this evening i would like to preach on spanking according to the bible. now this is not a new subject

here at fairhaven baptist church. >> he then talked about the proper way in his opinion to administer discipline. >> what is a rod? i don't think it's a ball bat. i don't think it's a club or whatever the parent can grab at the moment. the rod is scripture's never carefully defined, but it's obviously some kind of stick or switch, and it's designed to give a sharp, unpleasant pain. if that isn't the result of your spanking, then you're failing. sharp, unpleasant pain." >> fairhaven is part of the network of independent fundamentalist baptist churches. our next guest grew up in that church. i spoke to her earlier. what was your upbringing long you?

underwent biblical chastisement. what does that mean? >> that's right. there are a large network of churches, as you mentioned, known as the independent fundamental baptist, ifb, as a very simplistic way to explain the group. the ifb believes in breaking the will of a child. so my father was an ifb pastor. he currently is. and he practiced this form of discipline that michael pearl is advocating in his book, "to train up a child." that could mean that our spanking sessions, an i refer to it as beating sessions, could last from 15 minutes to several hours at a time. because basically these pastors believe that a child needs to have no will of their own. so they will continue to administer discipline until a child is completely docile in a way they show no negative emotion. that's the goal in the discipline session. >> but all the pastors say, look, we're not calling for abuse of a child. we're not calling for, you know, this can be misused by bad

parents who are out there who act out in anger and are irresponsible. but that's not what they're calling for. >> michael pearl said that. he does not advocate anyone spanking awe child in anger or being out of control. and that's what's really difficult to explain to the outside of the ifb. the ifb pastors are not advocating losing control and beating a child to death. these pastors are advocating a very systematic form of punishment that outside of their community would be referred to as abuse. inside the community, it's called spiritual spanking. so that's -- it's a matter of sim antics. they would say you shouldn't lose your temper and you shouldn't lose control. we think of parents who lost control completely and then it ended in the death of a child. but these parents are making a consideration decision to beat a child for several hours at a time because it's something that's embedded within their belief system. >> you run a website called

freedom from abuse where you try to bring together people who say they were victims of abuse from the hands of their parents who believe they were following biblical rulings. but plenty of parents believe in some form of corporal punishment. >> yeah, that's right. you think of corporal punishment in our country, most people say, or i nay jort of people at this point in time would say, you know, at a time or two i swatted my 2 or 3-year-old on the butt running out into the street. that's not what's being promoted within this group. this is a systematic form of brainwashing of these children to, again, to break them completely of a will. we are to be completely submisive. so here is another way i would explain it. when you can imagine a 3 or 4-year-old being spanked, the parent is laying the child down. they are spanking them. and you know if you're a 3-year-old, you're going to squirm during a spanking session like that. and that squirm is revelation to

them that the child is exerting their will and that will needs to be broken. so the parents continue to spank. so in the lidia shots case, i believe that they interpreted any kind of bodily movement of lidia's as a willful spirit that they needed to break and so that's why the session lasted as long as we heard of seven hours. >> i guess, though, there is clearly abuse and in lidia shots case, i don't think anyone would -- i don't think anybody in this church would say that is acceptable. they all say that is horrific. is it fair to be, you know, casting aspersions against an entire, you know, church organization as opposed to just bad individuals who clearly abuse a child? >> well, i think that that's where the history of the ifb has come into light now. abc/"20/20" did a documentary called "shattered faith" in which they took a year to do a

piece on this culture. and the findings were, yes, this is what's being taught from the pulpits of the ifb pastors. and -- >> i should point out we called the church for a response to talk to the pastor and did not get a response. but we look forward to continuing that discussion. jocelyn, i appreciate your time tonight. thank you very much. >> sure. thank you. >> we reached out a number of times to a pastor to issue a statement. he declined. our invitation is still open. just ahead in our special report, what is really going on inside this fundamentalist baptist home for troubled teens? disturbing allegations former residents are making and the special protection the law gives religious group homes. gary tuckman xblanz. >> we have a lot of complaints about people being physically and mentally abused at your home. can you give us a comment? >> i'd rather not. # [ woman on radio, indistinct ] ♪ bum-bum

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good evening, everybody. i'm gary tuchman, three american college students studding in egypt are free. the men were arrested monday after being accused of throwing molotov cocktails during the unrest that has taken place since last week. they left the police station in cairo and aplanning onboarding three separate flights back to the u.s. black friday turned ugly today. at a walmart in north carolina, police officers used pepper spray to keep shoppers at bay

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will be giving away passafree copies of the alcoholism & addiction cure. to get yours, go to ssagesmalibubook.com. well, there's a network of religious affiliated reform schools that cater to fundamentalist baptist churches. the group homes for troubled teens can be traced back to texas radio he vafrpg lift who found the the rebecca home for girls in 1967. he used a girls' singing group

to promote the home. ♪ the lord i know knows everything ♪ ♪ and all of my worry is vain >> despite the marketing, the home faced allegations of abuse and now decades later, another home that grew out of the same tradition is facing similar allegations. once again, here is gary tuchman. >> reporter: i'm about to meet a man who i know doesn't want to talk to me. my name is gary tuchman with cnn. we know that because don williams and his father said they would not comment on abuse that happened in a secluded town. this is a self described fundamentalist baptist boarding school for adolescent girls. the allegations are so disturbing we felt we needed a face-to-face meeting with the father or son in charge. we found the son in a parking lot. we had a lot of people kplin

they've been emotionally abused auteur house. can you give us a comment about that? >> well, i would rather not. >> reporter: our conversation did not end there. but first let he is introduce you to susan groty who is now 45. but spent 2 1/2 years there starting when she was 15. >> it was going to be gardening and crafts and singing and just a chance to heal. >> so that's what your parents thought the school was going to be? >> that's right. >> reporter: was it in any way correct? >> no. no. and i knew that the minute the door shut behind me. >> reporter: on her first day in this house this ch was the facility used back then, susan says she was accused of having a bad attitude while cleaning the ceiling. two staff women grabbed her and don williams administered godly discipline. >> just bodily man handled me to the floor. and he hit me with a board as hard as he could. very big man. and i was shocked.

i have been paddled my whole life but never hit like. that. >> michelle is 20 years old. she just got out of the house a few years ago. her parents thought the strict curriculum would make her a better baptist. >> they said it would be good for me and make good life changing decisions. >> michelle was only 12 and brand new in the house whether two staff women told her to take off her dloejs and forced her into a closet where a man would give what the house claims is a medical examination. >> they hold both of my legs and both of my arms down and let him do this to me. he stuck a speck u lum inside of me and i was scared. i was screaming. i didn't want him to touch me. and there was nothing i could do. >> reporter: both women talk about being forced to eat a lot of food, sometimes not being given any food, being forced to drink a lot of water. susan says 28 girls shared three bedrooms in the upper floor of

this house. there was one toilet. but -- >> if i stood up to go to the bathroom, no. you can only go to the bathroom when you're told can you go to the bathroom. these are the girls your with. what would happen if you went to bathroom without asking? >> you would be paddled. >> i wet the bed every single night i was there. they would make a spectacle of you. you a horrible person. i had to wear pullups every night. they would watch me put it on every night and then make me show it to them when i would take it off in the morning. >> it's been open a long time. lots of people complained about getting beaten, emotionally tormented. mentally tormented. all in the name of religion. there are a lot of us that are religious and don't believe in hitting them and tormenting them and making them wear diapers. i want to know why you do that. >> i prefer not to comment. >> why can't you comment if you believe in what do you this is your chance to tell our viewers. >> i understand. that but i'd prefer not to. >> if you can tell me why, i'm just asking you respectfully, why don't you want to tell us?

>> i'm respectfully declining. >> don williams is also the pastor at the church on the house grounds. a former church goer gave cnn a cd sold by the church in which williams is preaching views about who is to blame when a male whistle as a female. >> if you girls are walking down the sidewalk and some fellows drive by and whistle, you better stop and think about that. what drew that whistle? was it the way i was walking? or maybe the way i was dressed or whatever. did i do something to defraud those men? >> the website features pictures of girls who attended and claims there are no spankings or any out of the ordinary punishments. this facility has been around for four decades. it seems to be a tlifg enterprise. the people in charge don't particularly want to answer my questions. but we're not alone. they don't really answer to the

government either. in indiana, group homes operated by churches and religious ministries are exempt from licenses. so nobody in the government even knows what's going on behind the closed doors. the women say their parents also had no idea what was going on there. in the 15 months that you were in the house, how many times did you leave the grounds? never. never. >> zero? >> zero. >> the indiana governor's office says there is nothing it can do. the attorney general's office says it doesn't have jurisdiction. the same thing with the indiana department of education. notably though the indiana department of child services says it could investigate, providing there was a current complaint. and not from someone who already walked out the door. but we've talked to more than a dozen women who say they were victimized at this house and they say they can never make any private phone calls or send uncensored letters while on the inside. the house is not the only facility of its kind. across the country victim advocates say there are an unknown but large number of similar program. >> i have nightmares about it

all the time. like very vivid dreams like i'm trapped inside of this house again and i can't get out. and that's like the only thick i want is to run out a door and for some reason i can't. >> i think i fantasized about suicide those first years out. >> reporter: we wanted to give williams once r one last chance to answer the allegations. is it true or not? yes or no question. >> it's not true. >> reporter: so they're lying to us? >> i'm not -- see, that's where you're trying to get me backed into a corner. it's their word against mine. >> reporter: we were not permitted to take video of the property but we did walk up the front steps and ring the bell. we saw a girl hustle back inside the home. we saw girls through the windows but nobody would answer the door. >> gary joins us now. why would the school use food and water as discipline? >> authorities at these

institutions, they have a laser like focus on discipline. and they feel it's very important to make the children who attend the schools submisive and then they're disciplined. >> they're saying these are problem kids coming there and you can't deal with them necessarily through regular means. >> not all the kids are problem kids. a lot of the parents are problem parents and didn't want to take care of their kids and sent them to this institution. >> is indiana really powerless to do an investigation of the school? >> no. if the governor -- the school has been -- this particular school has been open for four years. if any of the governor's over the last 40 years wanted to make this a cause or if the attorney general wanted to make this a cause, they could lobby the legislature. >> and if the federal government, i mean is there any role that the federal government is going to get involved? >> yes, there s a bill went to congress that would put more oversight over private boarding schools to help prevent child abuse. it passed the house. it died in a senate committee. it's never come back. >> fascinating report. gary, thanks. after gary talked to don williams, the house reached out and offered to put us in touch with another former student who

is willing to talk about her time at the facility. her name is lucinda pennington. her family sent her to the school when she was 15. she joins me now. thanks for being with us. you went to this house in 1988 when you were 15. and you say you liked it there. why? >> i did. i felt safe and secure there. it was a place for me to be able to get back on track. >> you'd come from an abusive family situation. and they were very supportive at the house? >> yes. very supportive. they helped me get out of the situation that i was in. and they helped me in taking care of what needed to be taken care of. >> were you ever beaten at the house? >> no. i was never beaten. i did receive a spanking, but never beaten. >> what sort of a spanking did you receive? >> i had cheated on a test and

even though it had been several days, they had to wait and get contact with my parents first before they could spank me. they took me upstairs and explained to me how it was done. i had to lay down on the floor. they held me hands and my feet. they put a chair across my back. i don't remember anybody sitting on it. granted, this was 23 years ago. i got three swats. i was let up. >> swats with what? >> i think it was just a regular paddle. and then i was let up and sat on the couch and we prayed. we talked about, you know, i shouldn't be cheating, cheating is lying. and then i -- within the three years i only received two spankings. so it wasn't like, you know, i got them all the time or anything like that. >> we've heard from other girls would were there who obviously,

you know, describe what they call -- refer to abusive situations. they refer to having to drink a lot of water and then not being allowed to go to the bathroom and being made to wear diapers. why would that happen? >> no. in the three years i was there, there was only one girl that was made to wear a diaper. the situation was she had just gotten there. hadn't been there maybe a day and these girls were not angels that arrived there. this girl was determined that nobody was going to tell her what to do, when to go to the bathroom and because we did things on a timetable, on a schedule, especially during school hours, we would have breaks and recess. and she says you're not going to tell me when to go to the bathroom. and she refused to use the bathroom. awe few minutes later she asked to use the bathroom. they told her no, you had the opportunity to use the bathroom. and when they told her that she needed to go when all the groups

went, she said well i'm going to stand here and pee in my pants. they said that's fine. if you do, the consequence is because you won't go to the bathroom when you're supposed to, you will wear a diaper for the day. and she said i don't care. she did it out of rebellion. and spite. and when they followed through with what they told her what would happen. and it only took one day that she actually wore the diaper. was the next day she did what she was supposed to. >> why do you think so many girls are giving strikingly similar accounts of being abused at this house? if that's not what really happened? do you think they're lying? >> i think for them some of the things were traumatic for them because they would have never been in a situation where they've been told what to do. and so for them to be told whether to eat, when to sleep, you know, not have the freedom

to do as they pleased, yes. they think they were abused, i guess you could say. do i agree with that? no. i came from a situation where i knew the difference between a spanking and a beating. and if someone's never been spanked then, yes, somebody may say well i was beat. >> i appreciate you being on and giving your perspective. thank you so much. >> all right. >> still ahead, when faith and law collide, if your religion tells you that god demands your spank your child, who is to tell you otherwise? in the law, where is that line between spanking and abuse? we'll be right back. ni-i-i-ck. oh... i thought those were put out for me. i did it again. no worries, nick. [ sighs ] say, nick, you must be busy this holiday. oh, yeah, with all the great savings we got going on, it's been crazy. ooh, i got to dash away. customers lining up. ♪

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when does it legally become abuse? and what about outside the family? before the break we showed you gary tuchman's report on faith based homes for troubled teens. because of their religious affiliati affiliation, they have a lot of freedom from oversight. joining me now is the author of "walking the freedom." i think the idea of porp ral punishment for continues is a lot more common than evangelical christians than many people realize. >> for many people in this country, this parents anxious

about how to discipline their children, they turn to what? they turn to sciencement they turn to studies and therapy, things like thisment for a lot of people in this country, particularly evangelical biblical based protestants, they turn to the bible. on this matter, the bible is not particularly vague. several times in prove eshs as we've been hearing all hour, it says very clearly if you spare the rod, you hate your children. and if you want to disclin your childr yourplin your children, you will be aggressive. there is comfort people people in the bible and what we know in america is sometimes the people who put their faith in the bible come in conflict with people who put their faith in science or, of course, the law. >> and, of course, how far does the discipline go? gary tuchman detailed alleged abuses of girls denied going to the bathroom for hours and hours, force fed, starved, some of the girls said, abusive sounding stuff. if it's true, how could that be justified? >> well, i think it's hard to

justify base on religion. let's put it that way. these are extreme people cutting themselves off, taking the most extreme view of religion. i think for most people who do support corporal punishment and as jeff knows better than i, almost half the states in the country it is still legal at this point in time in american history. most of the people, even focus on the family which is very conservative group, they say do it rarely. do it judiciously. do it gently. so even the people who support it go nowhere near these extreme cases we've heard in your reporting here tonight. and there is a difference between what is occasional discipline of some kind and this clear open line, crossing the line into abuse and in some cases murder. >> jeff, it's an interesting legal issue. i mean there are folks who say, look, this is part of my religious belief. this is an extension of what i read in the bible. where does the law stand on, you know, hitting your child or hitting a student in a school?

>> unfortunately, the law is very easy at the extremes. no one is going to get arrested for a spanking. if god tells you to rob a bank, you can't rob a bank. but when you get to these -- the corporal punishment that is more than a spanking but less than a broken arm, the police struggle with these cases. and the laws vary by state. but most of the time the police don't get involved in these. even though, i mean the sad truth is most victims of murder, children who are victims of murder, are people who are children who were killed by their family members. >> bruce, you make the point the bible mentions a lot of things that aren't accepted anymore. >> well, look, in the 19th century i wrote about this in a book about the influence of the bible in american history two years ago called "america's prophet." the bible openly supports slavery. and many people in the south used the biblical defense saying don't trust me. abraham had slaves.

jesus did nothing to stop slavery. so the -- on the matters of family, the bible is not a parenting textbook. it's not the dr. spock of the ancient world. and the attempts to take biblical passages and apply them are dangerous. most mainstream protestant groups, the methodist church had openly rejected this idea. and my personal opinion about this is if you're going to argue with people who are using the bible as a defense, you can't use the law in a lot of ways. you can't use mainstream society where science don't reject this. you're almost better off making a biblical argument to say this is a very fringe idea. it is mentioned only a few times. in the book of proverbs and the larger theme of the bible is have children and multiply. and many people who argued against this from the biblical point of view have said this is against the idea of the bible. it's against the teaching of

jesus which is to be sensitive to those and most vulnerable to society and who is more vulnerable than children? the way to argue is not the law is to say this is against the main theme of the bible. >> and, look, let's be clear. there is no such thing in the american courtroom as a biblical defense. you can maybe persuade a police officer not to arrest you. but once you are if a courtroom, no judge is going to say well it's okay if the bible says it's okay. >> but as gary pointed out, it seems like there is very little oversight of some of these homes or schools nind ind. >> no. very little. i mean, again, it varies by states. private schools in general are outside the supervision of the state. and that's why you have a private school as opposed to a public school. they still have to maintain a certain minimum standard. you still have to have sprinklers, you know, for fire safety. you still have to have a certain number of hours a week of instruction if you're a private or per oakal school. but how much of those rul