>> i look fantastic there. so slim. >> yeah. >> my three sons were excited enough that i was meeting you, the comedy god. the guy that i'm now there as a family guy character, you -- >> you just made me cool. so for that reason alone, seth macfarlane, thank you for coming on. >> pleasure. tonight a special report, "ungodly discipline." for weeks we've been investigating a deadly collision of faith and family. in the hour ahead you're going to meet some parents who believe that bible commands them to spank their children, even very young children, toddlers, spank them so hard that it hurts, that they cause physical pain. they call it spiritual spanking. they believe it's god's will. lydia shatz was just 7 years old when she was beaten to death in the name of god. she allegedly mispronounced a word during a home schooling session. that was her so-called sin.

>> the phrase "death by 1,000 lashes." that's basically what this was. >> lydia's parents pleaded guilty and were sent to prison. but michael pearl, the man whose teachings they followed, is still spreading his gospel. through a popular christian parenting book he wrote with his wife "to train up a child." apparently more than 1 million copies have been sold. the pearls wrote it as a blueprint for raising children they say the way the bible commands. >> it says that if you spare the rod, you hate your child. but if you love him you chosen him timely. >> the pearls say not to blame for what the shatzs did but spare the rod, spoil the child is a message that many fundamentalists and their preachers e78 brace. you also hear from a woman whose parents followed the pearls' teachings when she was growing up. her parents called it biblical chastisement. she calls it abuse. >> this is a systematic form of brain washing for these children.

>> a form of christian fundamentally that operates almost entirely beyond the reach of authorities. fundamentalist baptist homes for so-called troubled teens. they say they build character and help wayward young christians find their path back to god. but some former residents describe them as houses of horror. >> and they just bodily man handled me to the floor. and he hit me with a board as hard as he could. and i was shocked. and i had been paddled my whole life. i had never been hit like that. >> i have nightmares about it all the time. like very vivid dreams, like i'm trapped inside of this house again and i can't get out. >> accusations of abuse both physical and emotionally inflicted in the name of god. you'll hear their stories ahead an hear from the pastor who runs the home. >> we've heard a lot of people complain they've been physically, mentally, emotionally abused at your house. can you give us a comment? >> i would rather not. >> he wasn't happy to see us but he did answer some of our questions.

that's ahead we begin with a case that's put michael and debbie pearl's popular christian parenting book on the defensive. it's a book familiar to many fundamentalist christians who rely on its teachings to help raise their kids. until now it didn't get much attention outside those circles. but that's changing now that a little girl has died. here's part one of gary tuchman's report. >> reporter: the small town of paradise, california, where these children lived with their parents in a fundamentalist christian home. for the nine children, life in paradise was anything but. we cover up eight of their faces because they are the survivors. survivors of a violent form of discipline practiced by their parents, kevin and elizabeth shatz. the one face not covered is their 7-year-old adopted daughter lydia. she was killed by her parents. mike ramsey is the district attorney of butte county in northern california. >> we've heard of the phrase

"death by 1,000 lashes." that's basically what this was. >> reporter: this is where the family used to live. the children's sandbox is still here. so is their slide. and their tree house. but the surviving children are now in foster homes, and the parents are in prison. they've pleaded guilty to killing lydia and seriously injuring her 11-year-old sister zaria who almost died. authorities say kevin and elizabeth shatz beat their children regularly because they believed god wanted them. to the district attorney says the shatz believed -- >> to spare the rod will spoil the child. and if you can train your horse and you can train your dog you can train your children. >> reporter: 7-year-old lydia suffered terribly, supposedly in the name of god. but authorities say this was torture and murder by parents who were supposed to love and cherish their child. inside this house they found important evidence. the so-called biblical rods that shatz had inside.

what they were were 15-inch long plumbing supply tubes used to beat the children. and also important, a book was found inside. a book that appeared to light the fuse to the deadly brutality. the book is called "to train up a child." its author is this man on the track, to michael pearl and his wife debbie. they consider themselves observant christians who run an organization called no greater joy ministries from their tennessee farm. >> well, i'm a preacher, minister of the gospel. >> reporter: their book and others they've written stacked in a warehouse on their farm, all of them guided, they say, by the teachings in the bible. >> and it says that if you spare the rod, you hate your child. but if you love him, you chasten him timely. >> reporter: a rod, according to the pearls' manual on training children, can be anything from a tree switch to a spatula. in the book they describe a rod as a magic wand. "god would not have commanded parents to use the rod if it

were not good for the child." the pearls say parents should stay in control and not act in extreme. but they also declare, "any spanking to effectively reinforce instruction, must cause pain." >> let's say a 7-year-old slugs his sister. >> he would get -- a 7-year-old would get a 10 or 15 licks. and it would be a formal thing. in other words, you maintain your patient air, you explain to him that what he's done is violent, and that that's not acceptable in society and it's not acceptable in our home. then i would take him somewhere like into his bedroom and i would tell him i'm going to give him 15 licks. >> with what? >> probably a belt, a kid that big, a boy, i'd probably use a belt. it would be handy. it my use a wooden spoon or a piece of like plumbing supply line, a quarter inch in diameter, flexible enough to roll up. >> something very flexible. >> why not use your hand instead of all these materials? >> hey.

look here. right here. let me show you something. does that hurt? >> doesn't feel good. >> but look what it's doing to your whole body. see your hip? you don't use your hand on somebody. that's a karate chop. >> but telling me when you use this term it can't cause a permanent pain? >> it stings the skin. >> my children never had marks left on them. >> reporter: but look at the body of zaria, who was seriously injured by her parents. these are some of her wounds. other bruises on her body and those on her sister lydia who died are far too graphic for us to show. she was so severely beaten she died of a condition usually found in earthquakes and bombings. >> what do you think influenced the shatzs to beat, terrorize and torment their children? >> the book by mr. pearl. there's no doubt about that. >> reporter: lydia was beaten for seven continuous hours, interrupted by short prayer

breaks on the day she died. the sound of a police siren was reported by a paradise police officer racing to the house. when he arrived he tried to save lydia with cpr. both of the parents present. >> she's swallowed a lot of vomit. >> couldn't figure out what was going on. she was like really tired and her eyes, vision was blurry. >> reporter: and listen later in the day to the seriously injured zaria. >> where do you get spanked? just on the arms and your back? >> on my bottom and on my back last night, too. underneath my feet. >> underneath your feet? >> zariah, i'd like to take you to the hospital, okay? >> i probably need to bring a pot because i might throw up again. >> reporter: at the sentencing hearing, 11-year-old zaria, seriously recovering from her injuries had the courage to address her parents in open court about her deceased sister. she said, "why did you adopt her? to kill her?" it's a heart-breaking story. kevin pleaded guilty to murder

and torture and will be in jail for at least 22 years. and elizabeth for at least 12. >> do you think if the shatzs did not read the pearls' book there would be a good chance lydia would still be alive? >> i would think there would be. >> we reviewed the case and tried to find out what happened to see if there was going to be any blame pointed at us. so we looked into it. >> when we come back, has the death of little lydia shatz caused the pearls to rethink any of their parenting advice? gary gets a lesson in language. >> no, i don't use the term hitting. >> what's the word? >> spanking. >> and is there a difference? >> absolutely. >> well, he'll explain that ahead. also ahead, gary investigates some really disturbing allegations of harsh abuse and even brain washing at a fundamentalist baptist home for so-called troubled teens. a special report "ungodly discipline" continues in a moment. to pick up some accessories. d a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond.

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the next year, another $100. where am i going, carl ? the next year... that was weird. but awesome ! ♪ nationwide is on your side >> we started working on tonight's special report "ungodly discipline" after hearing about a little girl in california beat ton death by her parents. that's the little girl there. that in itself is a horrifying

story. but fact that her parents allegedly believed god wanted them to beat their daughter made the story even more disturbing. kevin and elizabeth shatz are now serving prison sentences. they kept a controversial parenting book in their home, a book that says god wants parents to spank their children with rods and switches, even rubber tubing, and that spankings should be hard enough to cause physical pain. the couple who wrote the book say they're not to blame for what the shatzs did. the district attorney sees it differently. once again here's gary tuchman. >> reporter: michael pearl is a competitive knife and tomahawk thrower. he never misses the tat target. but it's just a hobby. his life' work is preaching. he targets what some might call extreme discipline of children. >> i've never met any well-trained, emotionally secure, happy, creative children that weren't spanked.

>> reporter: pearl is a minister of the gospel, a devout christian. he and his wife are best-selling authors who have written many religiously-themed books. but their most popular and most controversial is book called "to train up a child" in which they write about the need to inflict physical pain. >> i don't use the term hitting. >> what's the word? >> spanking. >> and is there a difference? >> absolutely. a hand is hitting. a little switch is spanking. a wooden spoon or a spatula, rubber spatula, that's spanking. >> reporter: in the book the pearls, who live in rural tennessee, declare "the rod is a gift from god, use it as the hand of god to train your children." they say, "any spanking to effectively reinforce instruction, must cause pain." this couple believed in the pearls. kevin and elizabeth shatz, parents of nine children, read their book. as a matter of fact, the book was found in their house and put in an evidence bag after the

california couple pummeled one of their daughters for hours. 7-year-old lydia shatz, who had been adopted from liberia, died after suffering horrific injuries all over her body. mike ramsey is the district attorney in butte county, california. >> what we're talking about was and as we charged torture. torture over hours. >> reporter: this past spring, the shatzs pleaded guilty to the killing of their daughter lydia and seriously injuring her older sister zariah. these images some too horrific to show. the shatz said they also regularly beat their other children. we're covering their face toss protect their privacy. >> the book was there. underlined, underscored. >> there's no question in your mind that this book by the pearls influenced the shatzs to boat, brutalize and terrorize their children? >> none at all. >> no question? >> reporter: but the pearls feel

differently, saying their book rejects parents losing control and acting out of anger. >> so you're not accepting any blame. >> absolutely not. >> how scared were you that there would be blame pointed at you? >> i don't think we were scared at all. there's never been a suggestion by anyone that someone's lost control because of what they read in our book. >> reporter: the district attorney clearly disagrees and puts blame on the pearls for the tragedy. but he acknowledges that's about as far as he can go. >> was there ever any consideration at exploring legal charges against the pearls? >> not really. because they have a first amendment right to say awful things. >> reporter: the pearls say they feel badly for the girl who died but are unapologetic. they're not shy about using props and humor. >> i'm going to spank the cnn man. >> reporter: to how they believe god wants parents to spank. >> rubbing the spaghetti all over your head. you shouldn't have done that at seven years of age. >> okay.

and that hurts. and i'm 50. >> okay. >> leave any marks on you? >> no. but you would hit a 5-year-old like that? >> yeah, sure. >> reporter: the pearls say you can never be too young for some physical pain. for example, when a baby bites during breastfeeding. >> i would gently pull their hair, very gently, enough to make them let go. >> reporter: the spankings with various objects, say the pearls, are actually done out of love. the pearls appear to be staying prolific with their writings and preachings. they say they are now simultaneously writing four new books. there is no indication that any controversy slows them down. and why should it, say the pearls. they say it worked for their children, and most importantly, this is what god wants. >> we don't punish our children. what we sometimes need to get their attention. >> reporter: the eight surviving shatzs children are now all in foster homes. they and their sister lydia

certainly got our attention. gary tuchman, cnn, paradise, california. >> harsh discipline in the name of god. it's not just happening inside private homes like the shatzs and the pearls. just ahead what we uncovered and a fundamentalist baptist home for so-called troubled teens. a facility that operates outside the oversight of regulators because of its religious affiliation also ahead, a woman whose childhood was filled with beatings she says all in the name of god. her father was a pastor. >> these pastors are advocating a very systematic form of punishment that outside of their community would be referred to as abuse. inside the community it's called spiritual spanking. try bayer advanced aspirin. it's not the bayer aspirin you know. it's different. first, it's been re-engineered with micro-particles. second, it enters the bloodstream fast, and rushes relief to the site of your tough pain. the best part? it's proven to relieve pain twice as fast as before.

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the case of lydia shatz -- before the break you heard from michael pearl, a christian minister and author of the popular parenting book "to train up a child." his book tells parents that god wants them to spank their children with rods and belts and switches and spank them hard enough to cause pain. now, many fundamentalist preachers agree with minister pearl. one example is roger voegtlin. >> this evening i'd like to preach on spanking according to the bible. now, this is not a new subject here at fairhaven baptist

church. >> he then talked about the proper way in his opinion to administer discipline. >> what is a rod? i don't think it's a ball bat. i don't think it's a club or whatever the parent can grab at the moment. the rod in scriptures never carefully defined, but it's obviously some kind of a stick or a switch, and it's designed to give a sharp, unpleasant pain. if that isn't the result of your spanking, then you're failing. a sharp, unpleasant pain! >> well, fairhaven is part of the network of independent fundamentalist baptist churches. >> spanking sessions i refer to

so they will continue to administer discipline until a child is completely docile in a way they show no negative emotion. that's the goal in the discipline session. >> but all the pastors say, look, we're not calling for abuse of a child. we're not calling for, you know, this can be misused by bad

parents who are out there who act out in anger and are irresponsible. but that's not what they're calling for. >> michael pearl said that. he does not advocate anyone spanking awe child in anger or being out of control. and that's what's really difficult to explain to the outside of the ifb. the ifb pastors are not advocating losing control and beating a child to death. these pastors are advocating a very systematic form of punishment that outside of their community would be referred to as abuse. inside the community, it's called spiritual spanking. so that's -- it's a matter of sim antics. they would say you shouldn't lose your temper and you shouldn't lose control. we think of parents who lost control completely and then it ended in the death of a child. but these parents are making a consideration decision to beat a child for several hours at a time because it's something that's embedded within their belief system. >> you run a website called freedom from abuse where you try

to bring together people who say they were victims of abuse from the hands of their parents who believe they were following biblical rulings. but plenty of parents believe in some form of corporal punishment. >> yeah, that's right. you think of corporal punishment in our country, most people say, or i nay jort of people at this point in time would say, you know, at a time or two i swatted my 2 or 3-year-old on the butt running out into the street. that's not what's being promoted within this group. this is a systematic form of brainwashing of these children to, again, to break them completely of a will. we are to be completely submisive. so here is another way i would explain it. when you can imagine a 3 or 4-year-old being spanked, the parent is laying the child down. they are spanking them. and you know if you're a 3-year-old, you're going to squirm during a spanking session like that. and that squirm is revelation to them that the child is exerting

their will and that will needs to be broken. so the parents continue to spank. so in the lidia shots case, i believe that they interpreted any kind of bodily movement of lidia's as a willful spirit that they needed to break and so that's why the session lasted as long as we heard of seven hours. >> i guess, though, there is clearly abuse and in lidia shots case, i don't think anyone would -- i don't think anybody in this church would say that is acceptable. they all say that is horrific. is it fair to be, you know, casting aspersions against an entire, you know, church organization as opposed to just bad individuals who clearly abuse a child? >> well, i think that that's where the history of the ifb has come into light now. abc/"20/20" did a documentary called "shattered faith" in which they took a year to do a piece on this culture.

and the findings were, yes, this is what's being taught from the pulpits of the ifb pastors. and -- >> i should point out we called the church for a response to talk to the pastor and did not get a response. but we look forward to continuing that discussion. jocelyn, i appreciate your time tonight. thank you very much. >> sure. thank you. >> we reached out a number of times to a pastor to issue a statement. he declined. our invitation is still open. just ahead in our special report, what is really going on inside this fundamentalist baptist home for troubled teens? disturbing allegations former residents are making and the special protection the law gives religious group homes. gary tuckman xblanz. >> we have a lot of complaints about people being physically and mentally abused at your home. can you give us a comment? >> i'd rather not. what do you got? restrained driver...

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good evening, everybody. i'm gary tuchman, three american college students studying in egypt are free. the men were arrested monday after being accused of throwing molotov cocktails during the unrest that has taken place since last week. they left the police station in cairo and aplanning onboarding three separate flights back to the u.s. black friday turned ugly today. at a walmart in north carolina, police officers used pepper spray to keep shoppers at bay before the start of the electronics sale and at another

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will be giving awayte. passafree copies of the alcoholism & addiction cure. to get yours, go to ssagesmalibubook.com. well, there's a network of religious affiliated reform schools that cater to fundamentalist baptist churches. the group homes for troubled teens can be traced back to texas radio he vafrpg lift who found the the rebecca home for girls in 1967. he used a girls' singing group to promote the home.

♪ the lord i know knows everything ♪ ♪ and all of my worry is vain >> despite the marketing, the home faced allegations of abuse and now decades later, another home that grew out of the same tradition is facing similar allegations. once again, here is gary tuchman. >> reporter: i'm about to meet a man who i know doesn't want to talk to me. my name is gary tuchman with cnn. we know that because don williams and his father said they would not comment on abuse that happened in a secluded town. this is a self described fundamentalist baptist boarding school for adolescent girls. the allegations are so disturbing we felt we needed a face-to-face meeting with the father or son in charge. we found the son in a parking lot. we had a lot of people kplin they've been emotionally abused auteur house.

can you give us a comment about that? >> well, i would rather not. >> reporter: our conversation did not end there. but first let he is introduce you to susan groty who is now 45. but spent 2 1/2 years there starting when she was 15. >> it was going to be gardening and crafts and singing and just a chance to heal. >> so that's what your parents thought the school was going to be? >> that's right. >> reporter: was it in any way correct? >> no. no. and i knew that the minute the door shut behind me. >> reporter: on her first day in this house this ch was the facility used back then, susan says she was accused of having a bad attitude while cleaning the ceiling. two staff women grabbed her and don williams administered godly discipline. >> just bodily man handled me to the floor. and he hit me with a board as hard as he could. very big man. and i was shocked. i have been paddled my whole

life but never hit like. that. >> michelle is 20 years old. she just got out of the house a few years ago. her parents thought the strict curriculum would make her a better baptist. >> they said it would be good for me and make good life changing decisions. >> michelle was only 12 and brand new in the house whether two staff women told her to take off her dloejs and forced her into a closet where a man would give what the house claims is a medical examination. >> they hold both of my legs and both of my arms down and let him do this to me. he stuck a speck u lum inside of me and i was scared. i was screaming. i didn't want him to touch me. and there was nothing i could do. >> reporter: both women talk about being forced to eat a lot of food, sometimes not being given any food, being forced to drink a lot of water. susan says 28 girls shared three bedrooms in the upper floor of this house. there was one toilet.

but -- >> if i stood up to go to the bathroom, no. you can only go to the bathroom when you're told can you go to the bathroom. these are the girls your with. what would happen if you went to bathroom without asking? >> you would be paddled. >> i wet the bed every single night i was there. they would make a spectacle of you. you a horrible person. i had to wear pullups every night. they would watch me put it on every night and then make me show it to them when i would take it off in the morning. >> it's been open a long time. lots of people complained about getting beaten, emotionally tormented. mentally tormented. all in the name of religion. there are a lot of us that are religious and don't believe in hitting them and tormenting them and making them wear diapers. i want to know why you do that. >> i prefer not to comment. >> why can't you comment if you believe in what do you this is your chance to tell our viewers. >> i understand. that but i'd prefer not to. >> if you can tell me why, i'm just asking you respectfully, why don't you want to tell us? >> i'm respectfully declining.

>> don williams is also the pastor at the church on the house grounds. a former church goer gave cnn a cd sold by the church in which williams is preaching views about who is to blame when a male whistle as a female. >> if you girls are walking down the sidewalk and some fellows drive by and whistle, you better stop and think about that. what drew that whistle? was it the way i was walking? or maybe the way i was dressed or whatever. did i do something to defraud those men? >> the website features pictures of girls who attended and claims there are no spankings or any out of the ordinary punishments. this facility has been around for four decades. it seems to be a tlifg enterprise. the people in charge don't particularly want to answer my questions. but we're not alone. they don't really answer to the

government either. in indiana, group homes operated by churches and religious ministries are exempt from licenses. so nobody in the government even knows what's going on behind the closed doors. the women say their parents also had no idea what was going on there. in the 15 months that you were in the house, how many times did you leave the grounds? never. never. >> zero? >> zero. >> the indiana governor's office says there is nothing it can do. the attorney general's office says it doesn't have jurisdiction. the same thing with the indiana department of education. notably though the indiana department of child services says it could investigate, providing there was a current complaint. and not from someone who already walked out the door. but we've talked to more than a dozen women who say they were victimized at this house and they say they can never make any private phone calls or send uncensored letters while on the inside. the house is not the only facility of its kind. across the country victim advocates say there are an unknown but large number of similar program. >> i have nightmares about it all the time.

like very vivid dreams like i'm trapped inside of this house again and i can't get out. and that's like the only thick i want is to run out a door and for some reason i can't. >> i think i fantasized about suicide those first years out. >> reporter: we wanted to give williams once r one last chance to answer the allegations. is it true or not? yes or no question. >> it's not true. >> reporter: so they're lying to us? >> i'm not -- see, that's where you're trying to get me backed into a corner. it's their word against mine. >> reporter: we were not permitted to take video of the property but we did walk up the front steps and ring the bell. we saw a girl hustle back inside the home. we saw girls through the windows but nobody would answer the door. >> gary joins us now. why would the school use food and water as discipline? >> authorities at these institutions, they have a laser

like focus on discipline. and they feel it's very important to make the children who attend the schools submisive and then they're disciplined. >> they're saying these are problem kids coming there and you can't deal with them necessarily through regular means. >> not all the kids are problem kids. a lot of the parents are problem parents and didn't want to take care of their kids and sent them to this institution. >> is indiana really powerless to do an investigation of the school? >> no. if the governor -- the school has been -- this particular school has been open for four years. if any of the governor's over the last 40 years wanted to make this a cause or if the attorney general wanted to make this a cause, they could lobby the legislature. >> and if the federal government, i mean is there any role that the federal government is going to get involved? >> yes, there s a bill went to congress that would put more oversight over private boarding schools to help prevent child abuse. it passed the house. it died in a senate committee. it's never come back. >> fascinating report. gary, thanks. after gary talked to don williams, the house reached out and offered to put us in touch with another former student who is willing to talk about her time at the facility.

her name is lucinda pennington. her family sent her to the school when she was 15. she joins me now. thanks for being with us. you went to this house in 1988 when you were 15. and you say you liked it there. why? >> i did. i felt safe and secure there. it was a place for me to be able to get back on track. >> you'd come from an abusive family situation. and they were very supportive at the house? >> yes. very supportive. they helped me get out of the situation that i was in. and they helped me in taking care of what needed to be taken care of. >> were you ever beaten at the house? >> no. i was never beaten. i did receive a spanking, but never beaten. >> what sort of a spanking did you receive? >> i had cheated on a test and

even though it had been several days, they had to wait and get contact with my parents first before they could spank me. they took me upstairs and explained to me how it was done. i had to lay down on the floor. they held me hands and my feet. they put a chair across my back. i don't remember anybody sitting on it. granted, this was 23 years ago. i got three swats. i was let up. >> swats with what? >> i think it was just a regular paddle. and then i was let up and sat on the couch and we prayed. we talked about, you know, i shouldn't be cheating, cheating is lying. and then i -- within the three years i only received two spankings. so it wasn't like, you know, i got them all the time or anything like that. >> we've heard from other girls would were there who obviously, you know, describe what they call -- refer to abusive

situations. they refer to having to drink a lot of water and then not being allowed to go to the bathroom and being made to wear diapers. why would that happen? >> no. in the three years i was there, there was only one girl that was made to wear a diaper. the situation was she had just gotten there. hadn't been there maybe a day and these girls were not angels that arrived there. this girl was determined that nobody was going to tell her what to do, when to go to the bathroom and because we did things on a timetable, on a schedule, especially during school hours, we would have breaks and recess. and she says you're not going to tell me when to go to the bathroom. and she refused to use the bathroom. awe few minutes later she asked to use the bathroom. they told her no, you had the opportunity to use the bathroom. and when they told her that she needed to go when all the groups

went, she said well i'm going to stand here and pee in my pants. they said that's fine. if you do, the consequence is because you won't go to the bathroom when you're supposed to, you will wear a diaper for the day. and she said i don't care. she did it out of rebellion. and spite. and when they followed through with what they told her what would happen. and it only took one day that she actually wore the diaper. was the next day she did what she was supposed to. >> why do you think so many girls are giving strikingly similar accounts of being abused at this house? if that's not what really happened? do you think they're lying? >> i think for them some of the things were traumatic for them because they would have never been in a situation where they've been told what to do. and so for them to be told whether to eat, when to sleep, you know, not have the freedom to do as they pleased, yes.

they think they were abused, i guess you could say. do i agree with that? no. i came from a situation where i knew the difference between a spanking and a beating. and if someone's never been spanked then, yes, somebody may say well i was beat. >> i appreciate you being on and giving your perspective. thank you so much. >> all right. >> still ahead, when faith and law collide, if your religion tells you that god demands your spank your child, who is to tell you otherwise? in the law, where is that line between spanking and abuse? we'll be right back. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about the personal attention

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today we show you how faith and family collide. within their own homes parents set the latitude in how they discipline kids. when does it legally become abuse, and what about outside the family? before the break we showed you the faith-based homes for troubled teens that because of their religious affiliation they have a lot a lack of legal oversight. bruce, i think the idea of corral punishment for kids is probably a lot more common among evangelical christians than a lot of people realize? >> they're about 15% of the country right now.

on this matter the bible is not particularly vague. several times in proverbs it says very clearly if you spare the rod, you hate your children. if you want to discipline your children, you would be aggressive. i think for these people there is comfort in the bible and, of course, what we know in america is sometimes the people that put their faith in the bible come in conflict with people that put their faith in science or, of course, the law. >> how far does the discipline go and how do you define it? gary tuchman detailed alleged abuses, girls denied going to the bathrooms for hours and hours, force-fed and starved, some of these girls said, abusive-sounding stuff. if it's true, how can they be justified? >> it's hard to justify based on religion.

let's put it that way. these are extreme people cutting themselves off taking an extreme view of religion. for most people who do support corporal punishment and as jeff knows far better than i, almost half the states in the country it's still legal at this point in time in american history. most of the people like focus on the family, which is a very conservative evangelical group they say do it rarely and gently and judiciously. even the people that support it go nowhere near these extreme cases we've heard in your reporting tonight. there is a difference between what is occasional discipline of some kind and this clear open crossing the line into abuse and in some cases murder. >> jeff, it's an interesting legal issue. there are folks that say this is part of my religious relief and what i read in the bible. this is my interpretation of it. where does the law stand on, you know, hitting your child or hitting a student in a school? >> unfortunately, the law is very easy at the extremes.

no one is going to get arrested for a spanking. if god tells you to rob a bank, you can't rob a bank. when you get to these -- the corporal punishment that is more than a spanking but less than a broken arm, the police struggle with these cases and the laws vary by state. most of the time the police don't get involved in these, even though -- the sad truth is most victims of murder, children who are victims of murder are children that are killed by their family members. >> bruce, you make the point that the bible mentions a lot of things that aren't accepted anymore? >> in the 19th century i wrote about this in the book i wrote about the influence of the bible in america's history, the bible openly supports slavery, and many people in the south used a biblical defense saying moses had slaves and jesus did nothing to stop slavery.

on the matters of family, the bible is not a parenting textbook. it's not the dr. spock of the ancient world, and these attempts to take biblical passages and apply them are very dangerous. most mainstream protestant groups, in the methodist church a few years ago have openly rejected this idea. my personal opinion about this is if you're going to argue with people who are using the bible as a defense, you can't use the law in a lot of ways. you can't use mainstream society or science don't reject this. you're better off making a biblical argument, which is to say this is a very fringe idea in the bible. it's mentioned only a few times this idea of corporal punishment in the book of proverbs, which is a very vague, poetic language. the larger theme of the bible, the first thing god says is have children and multiply. many have argued against this say this is against the idea of the bible. it's against the teaching of

jesus, which is to be sensitive to those vulnerable in society and who is more vulnerable than children? so the way to argue in my view is not the law, it's to say this is against the main theme of the bible. >> and let's be clear. there is no such thing in an american courtroom as a biblical defense. you can maybe persuade a police officer not to arrest you, but once you're in a courtroom, no judge is going to say, well, it's okay if you bible says it's okay. >> as gary pointed out, it seems like there's very little regulation or oversight of homes or schools in indiana. >> no, very little. again, it varies by states. private schools in general are outside the supervision of the state. that's why you have a private school as opposed to a public school, but they still have to maintain a certain minimum standards. you still have to have sprinklers for fire safety and a certain number of hours a week for instruction if you're a private or parochial school. but how much those rules are enforced varies a lot, and a lot