we get up, as you know, it doesn't come out the same time i get up at 2:00ing 3:00, something like that. i try to go to bed right after your show. >> hugely successful don't need a lot of sleep. great to see you. >> this was fun. >> tomorrow, richard branson, virgin flying to the skies, flying to skies, flying to outer space. he comes "outfront." tonight the cain train runs off the rails. >> they want you to believe with enough character assassination on me, that i will drop out. >> i'll talk to two other men who want to be our next president. ron paul and rick santorum. on the economy and on jobs and who stands to benefit most? plus, the penn state sexual abuse case. why one accuser's attorney says this. >> we're at the tip of the iceberg here.

a mother's nightmare. >> you put layers over that pain but it doesn't ever go away. >> phoebe prince's mother in her first and only tv interview. what pushed her daughter over the edge and what she thinks could have saved phoebe. >> i think had school intervened, that phoebe would still be here. absolutely. >> a worldwide exclusive. this is "piers morgan tonight." >> good evening, a busy day on the campaign trail for the republican hopefuls. moments ago, the campaign headquarters in manchester, new hampshire, on a day when he's gone from he said she said to will he or won't he? >> are you vowing to stay in

this race? >> are you re-evaluating. we are reassessing. >> how soon until we have a final answer on your future plans? >> we'll be making a decision in the next several days. >> thank you, sir. >> sounds like he's reevaluating his reassessment. he said i'll fly home over the week to talk with his family face to face and he suggested the atlanta woman who accuses him of a 13-year affair has ulterior motives. >> we have no idea who it is. but i just happen to know that the reason that i was trying to help her as a friend financially, because she was in some deep financial problems about to not even be able to pay her rent. so i don't know who is behind it. but at this point, but we're going to try to figure out as much as we can. this is a direct character assassination. >> two gop hopefuls are here with me tonight.

i begin with congressman ron paul. welcome. >> thank you. >> i just want to start with herman cain. the herman cain train, as they call it, seems to have hit the buffers. politically are you getting the sense that it is all over? is he toast? >> well, it's hard for me to know and i guess it is anybody's guess, but i wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't wait it out and does the caucus in iowa and new hampshire election. but who knows? he could decide tomorrow what he is going to do and drop out. i have no idea. >> do you feel sympathy for him? >> well, i don't know whether the word sympathy at all. i just wished we didn't have to talk about it. i wish we would, if he is having political troubles and he has to drop out, i would rather he drop out because he used to work for the federal reserve and he wants to give us a national sales tax.

that to me has a great deal of effect on all americans if those kinds of policies would be accepted. >> you've been married incredibly successfully to your wife carol for 55 years. do you think that this kind of allegation, personal issues, are they still as relevant do you think to the electorate as they used to be? >> probably not. i mean if you take what happened to bill clinton, it didn't seem to bother his re-electability. so i don't think so. but i place a little blame on the media. there is a lot of dwelling on this. but it is just too bad that we don't talk about the issues more than we talk about this. think how much time and energy has been put into this. but on the other side, people do deserve to know about the people they're voting on, too.

>> you're in new hampshire now and the race is holding up big time. we're a few weeks away from when it gets really serious. newt gingrich appears to be on a roll. the latest polls from new hampshire suggest he is doing well there. he is surging in florida. clearly, a bandwagon growing behind him. what do you make of this? >> well, i guess you can compare it to many others done this. two weeks ago, herman cain was at the top. so things do change. and they've changed for three or four already so i think only time will tell. and i think we stick to what we've been doing now for the last year. working especially in iowa and new hampshire. and we don't go up and down. we gradually go up and steadily go up. and i think that's a healthy way to do it. so we've moved into position where most of the polls show we're in second or third place. and double digits.

so we feel pretty comfortable about that. but so far, we haven't had any spurts. we want to have the spurt at the last minute. when the election occurs. >> they say you can always tell who is the front-runner because all his rivals begin launching attack ads on him. you've sprung one on newt gingrich. a pretty biting video calling him a serial hypocrite. explain yourself, mr. paul. >> well, you know, he's had different positions on a lot of the issues. and you know, doing the environmental ads with nancy pelosi and supporting bailouts and all these things. he's been flip flopping in his medical position is hardly free market medicine. and i think pointing those things out, how he has been on every side of the issue. he hardly can declare himself now a conservative. when he first ran, he described himself as a rockefeller type republican.

that used to be, you know, a pretty serious charge. so no, he didn't identify with the conservatives when he was in congress even though verbally he might. but his positions weren't all that conservative. >> congressman, today the economy got a huge boost. the central banks and the fed got involved. and as a result of the direct intervention, markets around the world have surged today. the dow was up 490 points. one of the biggest leaps in nearly three years. is this bad news for the republicans? if this has the desired effect on the global economy, and impacts favorably on jobs, is barack obama sitting pretty? >> well, time will tell. this is very bad news for the country and for the world financial system even though it looked pretty neat today and the markets responded. this is a sign of desperation and it is also a sign that our dollar will be used to bailout europe and the banks over there.

the banks are in hock with all these debts. they don't want the banks to go under and many have branches. if they don't bail them out. this is buying up bad debt. i think it shows how serious the problem is. and they're reacting in a very major manner. but it is bad for the dollar. it is bad for the persons in power of our money. bad for the inflation that's coming. and they haven't done anything. this is exactly opposite of what needs to be done. when a world is swimming in debt and malinvestment, what you have to do is get rid of it. but in the last 50 years or so, people refused to do it. what they do is prop up the debtor take the debt from the sovereign states or from the banks and bail they will out as we did in 2008 or 2009. and they know how serious it is. but the solution that they're

proposing is only prolonging the agony. it means that it will be a lot longer until we get real growth in the world economy again. >> congressman, it's been a pleasure as always. i'll leave you for one of your rivals who is waiting, chomping at the bit. so thank you very much for now. thank you. the rival, of course, is form he senator rick santorum. senator, how are you? >> i'm doing great, piers. thanks for having me on. >> you're not doing very well in the polls. let's cut to the quick. you are seriously struggling. what are you going to do to save the day for your campaign? >> i love this preoccupation with national polls. the national polls have proven nothing in past productions. what matters is what's going on in the first one. the iowa caucuses on january 3rd. if you look at what's going on in iowa and you read the reports and you talk to the activists

and the people who show up to the caucuses, as was mentioned, i think the last time around there were about 120,000 people that came to the caucuses. we've been to all 99 counties. we've had 250 town hall meetings. we've built a strong organization. there is congressman paul has done. he built that organization. >> but let me jump in. i was actually referring to a local poll. a new hampshire poll and you were bottom of the table with 1%. >> yeah, again, i don't really worry about new hampshire polls. i worry about the first poll. once we win iowa and i do believe we will win iowa. once we win iowa, those polls in new hampshire and south carolina and the country will dramatically change just like they've changed over the past six months for four or five different candidates who flg from 1% or 2% all the way to 20 and 30%. the american public has not really focused on this election. i would make the argument that most people in new hampshire have not started to really focus on this election.

it doesn't mean much now. they'll start over the next few weeks as we get down to the caucuses in iowa. they'll start focusing and we'll start coming one the polls and we'll do better than on caucus day than the polls indicate because we've got the strong organization and we spent the time on the ground that these other candidates have. the same goes with new hampshire, i might add. >> let me ask you about herman cain. when i've talked to you before, you're a man of strong morality. you have strong feelings about this. what do you think of herman cain's crisis that he's in? where he is being hit with this slew of sexual allegations. >> well, what karen and i do in all of these races is we pray for all the folks who have to go through this very difficult process. and we do it every day. we pray for all the candidates. we pray for the president. this is a very tough business. a lot of horrible things are said. and thrown at candidates every

single day. my job is to just not have it be a distraction for us and it's not been. we've continued to talk with how we'll create jobs. how we'll could not front a potential nuclear run and what to do about that. and trying to strengthen the american family. all of those things are important to the people of america and that's what our campaign is focused on. and all we do is pray for herman as we do for every other candidate. >> let me ask you, you spoke very emotionally very recently about your daughter. she is 3 1/2 years old. she has this awful condition and you're having to spend all this time on the campaign trail. every candidate goes through a lot of self-sacrifice for them and their families. how has it been for you in particular living with this and having to run for president? >> it's very difficult. we knew that. karen and i and the kids, we prayed a lot about it and talked a lot about it. and our daughter who is the absolute joy of our family.

she is just pure smiles and joy and we just love her to death. and she really does, she is the center of our life and our family and it is hard to be away. i'll see her later tonight and i'll be with her tomorrow. but there are a lot of days and nights that i'm not around. and that's a sacrifice. but we again, we really did think long and hard and pray long and hard about whether this was the right thing for us, if i was to be the best father, what would i do? i believe that making sure america is free and safe and prosperous and making sure our children are not saddled with an oppressive government health care system that over time will not provide the kind of access to care for those on the margins of life as we go to a more utilitarian view of how health care is managed. that these children and other countries around the world simply do not get the access to care that they thankfully do here in the united states.

and that to me was a higher calling, at least in the short term, for bella and for our family. >> rick santorum, thank you for talking to us and best of luck. >> thank you. i appreciate the opportunity. tomorrow i'll have an exclusive interview with herman cain's attorney which promises to be rerevealing. he says it will be the talk of the town. we'll see. that's my exclusive interview with herman cain's attorney lin wood tomorrow night. coming up, jerry sandusky. shocking new details. ttd# 1-800-345-2550 ttd# 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about the typical financial consultation ttd# 1-800-345-2550 when companies try to sell you something off their menu

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sandusky was part of the penn state family. we all are and i feel shame. >> comment from a town hall former penn state tonight. it come on the heels of the first lawsuit by a man who claimed to be sexually assaulted by jerry sandusky more than 100 times as a child. joining me now to detail this terrible story, his attorney, jeff anderson. he specializes in sex abuse cases. thank you very much for joining me tonight. this is particularly awful even by the standards of what we've been hearing on this case. the lawsuit states your client john doe was raped, abused hundreds of times in multiple locations by jerry sandusky and even out of state ball game. i suppose the obvious question, why did your client keep his silence all these years? >> well, i think that is a fair question. and i think it really requires

us to really understand how sexual abuse by authority figures like sandusky coerce silence and secrecy and cause this victim and others like him to believe they're being cared for. to believe it is their fault. so they suffer in silence blaming themselves and believing they won't be believed. so they are afraid. they are confused and they are suffering in shame of usually when there is abuse by powerful authority figures, it takes years or decades to break the silence. >> i want to play you a clip from jerry sandusky's sandusky. he spoke to cnn earlier about

his client. >> if you know jerry and what other people have said about jerry, they said he is a big overgrown kid and always has been. whether playing football or wrestling or whatever, he is like a kid. and i think the people who know jerry understand that about jerry and i think that will come out as i think the case progresses. >> what does your client feel when he hears that jerry is a big old kid? >> well, what he feels and what every survivor feels when they hear that kind of denial and minimizingation, is fury. there is a tendency of people like we just heard to want to believe the most powerful and effective among us like jerry sandusky wouldn't do something like this. he couldn't. we don't want to believe it.

and survivors, the courageous survivors with whom we work every day hear denial like that and everybody coming to the aid and rally of the powerful offender or accused offender, it causes them a great deal of anxiety and it compounds oftentimes the harm that has been done. >> one of the most sickening aspects of the claim, and they are claims, i'll read the statements from both penn state and the second mile soon. he was groomed as a young child through this second mile chart. which is just grotesque. what do you feel about the way the charity was set up? about the other victims who may have been abused under the umbrella of this charity? what should happen to it now? >> well, what i feel isn't as important as what we need to really do. the question we need to ask

first is why did jerry sandusky for as long as he did, be allowed to do what he did for decades to so many kids while so many people around him saw the signs or got the reports and did nothing and chose instead to protect him and the institution. that's the real question. it's a painful question and the answer is even more painful. they chose to protect the reputation, the power, and the man that they believed couldn't and wouldn't do this enstead of the kids. and they put that reputation and that institution first. and that is the answer that really requires the hard and rigorous lesson to be learned.

we have to heed the signs and the signals. this grand jury report said there were 17 men that either received reports or saw it and didn't act. >> okay. jeff anderson, i'm going to have to leave it there but thank you for coming on the show. i will out of fairness now read two statements. one from penn state. they say we have not yet received copies of the document filed with the court. we're unable to comment on specifics related to the case. the statement from the second mile charity. we will review the lawsuit and respond appropriately when we have done so. the second mile will adhere to its legal responsibilities throughout this process as always, our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families. jeff anderson, thank you very much. when we come back, a daughter was bullied to death. now phoebe prince's mother speaks out in her first and only television interview.

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phoebe prince's suicide after being bullied by her classmates drew worldwide attention to bullying. nearly two years later children

are still dying. this week, a 10-year-old illinois girl took her own life after what parents say was intense bullying at her school. joining me now, anne o'brien, phoebe prince's mother in her first and only tv interview. thank you for agreeing to do this interview. why are you doing it? >> i think a lot of mistruths have been written about phoebe. and i think that it was time to take her back, to reclaim her. as ours. to put an end to some of the stories that have been going around. and give phoebe her dignity back. >> there's been so much speculation about what happened to phoebe. were you taken aback by the kind of worldwide attention? >> very much so. i didn't expect it at all. the media got involved pretty

much the evening of phoebe's death when the superintendent released her name. and it started a whirlwind of intrusion and interest. and the following week the principal and i believe sent a letter to all the parents and they posted it on the school website. and they called phoebe complicated. that she had been seeing an adjustment counsellor even though she had only seen this woman once or twice. >> let's go back to the start. let's get this in chronological order. i want to know how you feel about every step of the way here. you bring your family from ireland to america in the summer of 2009. why did you do that? what was the motivation? >> i was taking a career break. and i was going to, i did teach

in the states. and i thought the girls would get a taste of america. it could be a fantastic year for them. >> were you worried about how your children would react when you came to america? how they would adapt? >> no, not really. they were both excited about it. i think lauren, lauren struggled a bit more than phoebe. phoebe fit right in at the beginning of the school year. >> what kind of girl was she? phoebe? >> extraordinarily intelligent and vivacious and a great sense of humor. and a foodie. she loved her food. constantly was eating and not putting on any weight. it really wasn't fair. >> was she a confident girl?

>> in ways she was. in other ways she wasn't. i don't think she -- she wouldn't have been outgoing in some ways and in other ways she would have been. i don't know how to describe it. >> the reason i ask is that crucially to how this all plays out, when you enroll phoebe at the school, you did tell the officials that she was susceptible to bullying. >> i did. i did. and that she was vulnerable. the guidance counsellor who i met with -- >> why did you say that. what happened before that made you feel that? >> phoebe, she had, she had a run-in with some girls before. >> in ireland. >> yeah. but nothing -- nothing too

dramatic. but phoebe would be -- phoebe kept things to herself. she internalized a lot. of pain or stressful situations. so my point of warning the school or advising the school was that she wouldn't necessarily come right out at the beginning and say, this is happening. she would initially internalize it. >> you were doing this as a mother but also as a teacher yourself. so you know how schools can work. you know how some kids can prey on vulnerable people in a school situation. so you laid down a marker. you said just keep an eye on phoebe. she has had a bit of a problem with bullies before. >> uh-huh. >> what did they say to you? >> oh, that will be no problem.

one of the vice principals was actually called on a personal call and asked to keep an eye out for phoebe. >> so they knew. they knew right from the start there was the potential for trouble. when did you discover for the first time that phoebe was being bullied? >> november. and it happened, i suppose 14th, 15th of november. she was very agitated and said, she was getting a ream of texts. i said what's going on? she said the girls are at me. i said who? you don't want to know, you don't want to know. it will blow over, mummy, it will blow over. and so, i said well, you need to tell, you need to let me know. no, no, no. it will blow over. and then a couple days later, the adjustment counsellor rang me from school. and let a message that she had

met phoebe for the very first time. that she thought she was just wonderful and charming and phoebe could be very charming. and that she thought it would be a good idea to check in with her. and that there was nothing to worry about. >> what kind of thing was going on now with phoebe? what were these girls doing to you? what could you deduce? >> well, once in december, she told me one of the girls involved in a new incident of bullying kept coming up to her in the hallways and screaming at her. and phoebe was there. we were in the kitchen. phoebe was there with a friend

of hers who said, oh, yeah. she is known for that. and she does it quite a bit to a lot of people. and phoebe and i discussed it. >> did you know that these girls were using social media like facebook and so on to bully her as well? >> but she wasn't -- the bullying on facebook, the cyber bullying that has been put out by people, it was just a small component of the bullying of phoebe. and yet it has been taken on as though it was predocument thanly cyber bullying. yet it was very little. most of it, i think a lot of the nasty comments were put on facebook after phoebe died. there were a couple that were put on before. there was one girl who, she would have considered a friend and she was one of the girls who was, afterwards, i found out,

was one of the girls getting at her that she said in november. she put a nasty message on twitter or something the week that phoebe died. >> let's take a little break and i'll come back and talk about the day that phoebe died. and the aftermath. because a terrible situation became, if it could possibly become, become even worse by the way everyone reacted. ♪ [ male announcer ] you never know when a moment might turn into something more. and when it does men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day, so you can be ready anytime the moment's right. ♪ [ man ] tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medications and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sexual activity.

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she didn't reveal to people what she was being subjected to.

and unfortunately, until january 7th, we were not aware of what she was being subjected to. so it was very little way we could have intervened in the bullying that took place. >> that was south hadley superintendent gus sayer speaking to cnn months after the suicide. her mother anne o'brien is with me now. we'll come to what gus sayer said in a few moments. take me back to this awful day when you discovered that phoebe had taken her life. >> well, it was -- stunning. i knew she was under stressful i was worried for her safety. i had told her that the night

before. i had called the school the week before and spoke again to the adjustment counsellor which was probably about the third time i had spoken with her since november. and shocked. stunned. you don't expect to come home and -- and find that your amazing kid is, has been pushed to such a limit. and i had booked her a ticket to return to ireland to take a break. and she just needed to hold on for two weeks. and i was at a loss to explain

to anyone exactly how intense it had become because i wasn't being told by the school. and i remember telling the police who had to tell me that she had been being bullied. this bright, beautiful girl -- >> it's an appalling litany of abuse on her last day. she was in the school library. someone had written swear words and racial slurs next to her name. after school they chanted profanities at her. the bullied threw a captain energy drink over her. this is taking bullying to a whole new level. this is a systematic abuse of

somebody, isn't it? >> yes, it is. it was almost planned, you know. >> one of the bullies the next day was overheard saying, quote done" posted on facebook. i can't think of a more callous thing for somebody to do. they drive someone to suicide and they put "done" on facebook. >> or "she got what she deserved." >> other was heard saying, why doesn't someone convince her to kill herself? i mean, this is really, it is depraved behavior by these other kids. what do you think was driving it? why were they so determined to force phoebe into what eventually happened?

>> i honestly don't know. that level of aggression toward another human being is just beyond my understanding. >> it's wicked, isn't it? >> it's astounding that there was never a stop mechanism, do you know, an internal stop mechanism for some of these kids to say this is going too far. but i also think the culture in the school helped enable that. >> well, gus sayer, the superintendent, he made it pretty clear. don't blame us. not our fault. we knew nothing about any of this. >> that's not true, is it? it's not true. >> what is your reaction when you see again, gus sayer saying that so soon after phoebe died?

>> it was very painful. because you know you realize as a parent that no matter what i did, no matter how many times i called the school, no matter how many people i might have spoken to there, that she didn't stand a chance there. >> she had been herself to the vice principal's office. >> i didn't know that until after she died. >> and she was told, there is no time for this. get on with it. >> she was told to go back to class. >> how much do you blame the school? >> as a teacher or as a parent? >> maybe both. if it is a different answer. maybe both. with your teacher hat on. because you will have been -- >> with my teacher hat on, absolutely the school failed. >> as a mother?

>> as a mother? i think that had the school intervened the way they should have intervened, if they had followed up the way they should have followed up, that phoebe would still be here. absolutely. she would still be here. >> let's take another break. i want to come back and talk to you about the dramatic development. which was when the bullies got arrested and they had to be accountable for what they had done. the outside looks good... let's see the engine.

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her final text messages were about shawn and the girls that tormented her. she wrote, i think shawn condoning this is one of the final nails in my coffin. i can't take much more. and it would be easier if he or any one of them handed me a noose. >> phoebe prince's mother reading phoebe's last text to two of her bullies in court this past may. incredibly painful thing for you to have to go through. but also very important for you. that in a very unprecedented step, six of the bullies were arrested. they were treated as adults. and went through this court case. five were convicted. in the end, they didn't go to prison. they are given probation and community service. do you feel that justice was done? >> i would like to actually

clarify because i know that some journalists think that prison terms were on the cards. we never asked for prison sentence. and it was never on the cards. it really was about accountability, taking responsibility, and we had specifically wanted a community service and probation. and that the community service would really give them a chance to reflect upon their actions. >> the reaction of the bullies because mixed and different, i would say. i want to play you a clip of one of them. sharon who appeared on the "today" show. this was a curious reaction, i thought. >> i want people to not judge

me. i want them to leave me alone. i want them to stop saying things to me. when i started school, people told me to leave because they don't want me here. i want that to stop. >> it seemed a bit me, me, me. leave me alone. look at how my life has been damaged when this girl is one of the people responsible for your daughter's death. >> well, we asked for a probationary period and community service so that some reflection could take place. >> has she ever that anything to you? sharon? >> no. >> nothing. >> no. >> never wrote to you? >> no. >> did any of them write to you? >> no. i met with ashley. and she had asked to meet with

me a few times. but it was after i had returned to ireland. and so when i came back for the dispositions in may, i agreed that i would meet with her. >> other than the bullies, one appeared in court and was remorseful. i want to play you a clip of that. >> i am sorry fortune kind things i said to others about you. i am sorry about the unkind posting on my facebook page. but mostly i am sorry for january 14th of 2010. >> did you feel that remorse was sincere? >> i did. she used some of the same language that i had used in my victim impact statement. >> so clearly it resonated with her. let's have another break. i want to bring out somebody. the district attorney who brought the criminal charges against these bullies.

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according to the investigation, the harassment occurred while she studied in the school's library around lunch period, walked in the school's hallway at the end of the school day and after school as she walked on newton street

toward her home. ? the former district attorney joins me now. you're betsy and beth. your assistant d.a. the schools deal with this properly stamp down on it quickly. when i listen to gus sayer, and i could see you reacting pretty ang littlely even so long after the event. there is a kind of denial in his behavior there, i thought. did you pig up on that? >> absolutely. there was a denial of any, not only wrongdoing but any inaction that may have contributed to not protecting phoebe. and let's face it, the school had a duty to protect her while she was in school. >> and beth, an interesting decision that they were tried as adults for legal purposes. how did that come about? what have been the implications of that for future cases now involving bullying in. >> well, they were tried as

youthful offenders. those that fit our, that were under the age of 17. those that reached the age of 17 were tried as adults. that decision was made to try to keep some equality in relation to how they were going to be handled within the criminal justice system. i think it also sent a message in relation to our view that these cases weren't going to be hidden behind the juvenile court system and its veil of secrecy. it needed to be put out in the public. it needed to have some kind of resonance that they were going to be very stiff consequences if this action tnd in the future. >> there is now a phoebe's law in the state of massachusetts. in simple terms, what is that law? >> essentially what it does is mandate the schools to report incidences of bullying, should

they believe that an act is one of bullying. it also mandates and i think, i know beth agrees, that what is really critical is the training for school personnel. on what is relational aggression. what is bullying and how can that be stopped? that's really important and i hope that will go on in the future. >> you set up a scholarship in phoebe's name. what would you like her legacy to be given the appalling events that led to her death? and the fact that nothing can bring her back? what would you like the legacy to be? >> well, ideally i would like it to be that humans treat each other in a more civilized manner and know boundaries. but i'm not too hopeful about that. >> you're not.

>> no. no, i'm not. i -- i think if i were to say oh, yes, now phoebe has died so every one is going to now be nice to each other. i would just be naive. >> i think that's right. i think the crucial aspect of this that makes it different is the action that you took legally to bring these kids to get some kind of accountability. and actually if the legacy is that in future, schools are just more aware. they take more action earlier. and some lives can be saved rather than lost because of what has happened. that is at least a positive that comes out of this hell for