we've done particularly well in information technology and information search. it's essentially a math problem and we do that i think better than anybody else. >> when i asked him whether google was a monopoly he smiled to the engineer behind him, "no, i just think we do it better than others." thanks for watching. "anderson cooper 360" starts right now. >> good evening, everyone. we begin tonight keeping them honest with the stinging official criticism of the man knowns aamerica's toughest sheriff and the methods of his department. for years joe arpaio has been the law in phoenix's maricopa county and he's fought hard to stay that way by taking on all opponents, bill and small. >> i know i'm doing the right thing. i'm not going to surrender by those little small groups of people that don't like what i'm doing. you think i'm going to surrender? never happen. >> tonight arpaio and his department are facing perhaps the biggest challenge yet -- it comes from a federal

years in the making and is detailed in a 22-page letter to the maricopa county attorney. detailing "a pervasive culture of discriminatory bias against latinos at the mcso," the maricopa county sheriff's office" that reaches the highest level of the agency. sheriff arpaio's own actions have helped nurture a culture of bias." found latino drivers are four to nimz more likely than non-latino drivers and more documenting detention officers at the sheriff's jail using offensive slurs and profanities calling them "wetbacks, stupid mexicans" and slurs we can't mention on the air. according to the civil rights division they're reviewing allegations that sheriff arpaio's department failed to investigate hundreds of alleged sexual assaults and child molestation cases. many of the victims apparently

were latinos. earlier this year, when "360's" ed lavandera spoke with sheriff arpaio he spoke as himself as a victim. >> have they spoke to you what an abuse of power is? >> i don't know what abuse of power is. i'm the guy being abused over and over. even you are abusing me over, and over, again, abusing this sheriff. i violate the law, i do this, i do that. i'm the guy being abused, but you know what? that's part of the job. you take it. >> there's sheriff arpaio this summer. late today he and other officials answered the allegations and said he whaent wasn't going to be made a whipping boy by the justice department and another claiming it lacks specifics claiming "we're wrestling with clouds." arpaio said he has compassion for latinos but enforcing the law overrides that compassion. joining us is thomas perez,

assistant attorney general or the civil rights division of the united states department of justice. how bad is this situation as far as you're concerned at this sheriff's office in maricopa county? >> i think the department is broken in a number of very critical ways, the discriminatory policing that we documented, and that discriminatory policing is compounded by a penchant for retaliating against people who speak out against them, and then when you layer on top of that the challenge s in the jail whee people are punished because they don't speak english, and then you look finally at these other issues that have come to light more recently involving the failure to investigate sexual assaults and issues of that nature, it paints a very troubling picture of a department that is broken in a number of important ways, and a

culture of disregard, frankly, for the constitution that pervades the department. >> what reaction, if any, have you gotten from the sheriff's office? >> well, we met with the sheriff's office this morning. they're still digesting the report and what we said and what i continue to say is, i would rather fix the problem than fix the blame. we have a lot of work to do. this is serious stuff. when you're talking about the failure to investigate sexual assaults, when you're talking about people who are incarcerated for no reason, many of them are u.s. citizens, legal immigrants. these are serious issues, and in other cities and we have 20 investigations under way, anderson, across the country, and more than ever before in our division's history. the approach in virtually all of them has been collaboration and cooperation as opposed to confrontation. that's what i want to do here.

i want to work together not simply with the sheriff's office but with the entire community to come up with a comprehensive blueprint for sustainable reform that will reduce crime, ensure respect for the constitution, and restore public confidence in the sheriff's office. >> that all sounds great, though, but i've interviewed sheriff joe arpaio before. he's been steadfastly unapologetic when it comes to methods. he says look i do what i do to keep my community safe, voted back into office repeatedly. people wreak the law they deserve to be punished. that seems to be his response. >> i'm hopeful when they read this report and see the troubling findings regarding, again, not only the acts of co-mission but the acts of omission and the profiling, an expert said this is the worst case of racial profiling that he has ever seen in any work he's done in the united states. when they see the culture of

tolerance for retaliatory behavior and then when you see the acts of omission, the failure to arrest and prosecute and investigate sexual assaults, this is about public safety as much as anything. >> should the sheriff keep his job? you're saying his tactics are unconstitutional. you're saying that he is personally responsible for a culture of bias. should he be the sheriff? >> i think the sheriff needs to fix the problems that we've identified and we outlined a road map and it's a road map we've been able to follow, anderson, with great success in other cities and i hope we can follow it here. the rule in our work in the other cities has been collaboration and cooperation, and i hope we can do that here. >> thomas perez, i appreciate you joining us. thank you. >> my pleasure. we should mention we obviously reached out to sheriff arpaio to come on the program.

he declined my invitation. with us is jeffrey toobin, former prosecutor. >> and former resident of phoenix. >> what do you make of this? >> this isn't a surprise to anyone who has followed sheriff joe for all these years. he has bragged about his tough-minded enforcement, all those prisoners in those ridiculous striped outfits, they have to wear pink underwear, this is his m.o. he is going to completely reject this as he did briefly in his statement this afternoon, and frankly, the more important thing that's going on in phoenix now is that there's a criminal investigation from the u.s. attorney's office there about civil rights violations that i think is the only thing he's going to pay any attention to. this is sort of very nice, polite letter he's just going to throw in the trash. >> the justice department puts out this report, does it have any ramifications? does it have any legal -- >> not yet. they had to go to court -- >> they're not suing him. >> they're not suing him. it's a letter. they had to go to court just to

get him to cooperate with this investigation and joe arpaio with a 22-page letter? it's nothing to him. this is something -- you know, he has built his career by defying the feds. interestingly, the department of homeland security today as a result of this cut off some of the contracts between the department of homeland security and the sheriff's department. homeland security is run by janet innapolitano, former governor of arizona, she has tangled with him in the past but he's outlasted her. he's up for re-election next year. chances are he'll run and win again and the only thing that's going to stop him is a criminal indictment. >> is there any chance the justice department would bring some sort of charges? >> there's been an investigation undergoing, going for several months, if not years. it's completely separate. i don't know, you know, i don't want to pre-judge it. i don't know what's going to happen there but that's the only thing that's going to get his attention. >> this division which wrote the letter, he rejects the letter, now they're like we're going to

file charges. >> with all respect to assistant attorney general perez, conciliation and cooperation, i don't know what planet those folks are living on. >> he clearly doesn't want to say yeah he's going to blow his lid off. >> why not say it? this was a guy who has thumbed his nose at the justice department for years. he's sued. he's arrested other public officials in phoenix. this is a guy who plays for keeps and a polite letter from the justice department is going to do exactly nothing. >> and if there was a criminal charge, i mean he can only be voted out of office. >> if there's criminal charge, if he's convicted he would certainly have to leave office. but he's up for re-election in 2013 i believe, and it's really up to the voters and the thing that has turned phoenix a little bit on him has been the failure to investigate the sexual assaults. you mentioned it, perez mentioned it a little bit. that's so awful and it's not,

you know, his traditional tough guy act. it's such a dereliction of duty that that's the thing that might sink in with the voters more than any of the immigration stuff. >> why would he fail or refuse to investigate sexual assault? >> because they're hispanic, the victims are hispanic? >> that's it. >> that's the only explanation plausible to me. this is a community he views as targets, not as victims and they have not, and so he ignored it. >> as i said we invited him on the program, he declined this time around. he's been on in the past. jeff toobin, appreciate it. we'll check in with jeff on the strangest claims of an incidence we heard spoken on behalf of an accused pedophile, let us know what you think on facebook and google. we're talking about a new line of argument one of jerry sanduskey's attorneys said about why he was showering with a teenage boy or something about teenage boys, something about teenaged boys learn to know how to put soap on their bodies.

tweet me as well. hazing florida, a&m's marching band. yesterday the university president said it was too shrouded in secrecy to uncover. the governor had something to say. jeff will be back on the penn state child abuse scandal. we'll talk to the attorney for sandusky who made this claim about teenage boys learning how to use soap, see if he sticks by that. we'll be right back. [ woman ] my boyfriend and i were going on vacation, so i used my citi thank you card to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? we talked about getting a diamond. but with all the thank you points i've been earning... ♪ ...i flew us to the rock i really had in mind. ♪

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this season, discover aleve. all day pain relief with just two pills. tonight florida's governor is calling for the immediate suspension of james ammonds, president of a&m university. governor rick scott made the recommendation to the chairman of the school's trusties today. many are asking whether amonds or other officials overlooked hazing that have landed several students in the hospitals over the years. last month one member of the band was badly beaten and less than three weeks later the drum major was allegedly beaten to death in a hazing ritual aboard the bus. other black colleges and the

marching bands are the attraction on game day. hbcus is king, beating victim bria hunter sat down with wxia, her mother was with her and as you'll see didn't let bria say much. >> the first day like everybody will, not everybody would -- some, a good few people got hit. >> you need to stop. >> okay. >> i'm not comfortable. >> he told me that last -- >> you don't need to answer none of them questions. >> okay. >> she needs to go back to school. i'm not going to be here. >> florida a&m's president, though, has spoken at length telling jason carroll hazing is shrouded in "a veil of secrecy." >> one of the things that we have found with hazing is that there is a, there's a veil of

secrecy. >> reporter: yes. >> this is a culture, not just here at florida a&m university, it's been college and university campuses across america. >> that suggestion that no one could have known flies in the face of common sense. critics say ammons was or should have been aware of the problem. the problems with the band were apparently common knowledge, 26 band members were expelled for hazing shortly before champion's death. from 1989 to 2001, three band members were badly beaten, two sued, one collected a settlement and the other a lawsuit worth $1.8 million. the top of all that, band hazings are the norm at other top historically black colleges and universities. let's talk more about that now, we'll have more on that shortly from guest professor ricky jones, author of "black haze." first the latest from jason carroll who joins us from tallahassee. >> reporter: anderson the

governor tells me that he spoke to ammons earlier this afternoon. he basically explained his point of view basically saying now that there are two investigations going on at the university, one of course into the hazing a separate investigation into allegations of financial fraud, the governor felt as though it was best for someone else to be acting as president. listen to what he said when we caught up with him just a little while ago. i just want to go over very quickly your decisions behind the recommendation to have dr. ammons step aside while the investigation takes place. >> right. we're only suggesting he step aside during the investigation, not asking for him to resign. fdle has come out -- >> reporter: florida department of law enforcement. >> -- law enforcement are looking at financial irregularities. i think it's in the president's best interests and the school's best interests that he step aside and say look i want to make sure that there's a thorough investigation where no

one's going to ever suggest that people aren't cooperating. >> reporter: when i spoke to the university president yesterday he felt he's done everything that the law has required him to do. do you think that is enough? >> well, i think you have to also just look at perceptions and you want to make sure that things are perceived that are being done the right way. this is tragic. i mean it starts with the death of a young man, and then it goes to now the investigation expanding into financial irregularities. i mean it's in his best interests to say look, i want to make sure that there's no question but this university is doing the right thing and is cooperating. >> what's the reaction from the school and from the president? >> reporter: well, anderson, this evening i spoke to one of ammons' associates who said he's extremely disappointed that the governor would make this recommendation. he said ammons' crest fallen, he

wants to stay and fight for the university. ammons released a statement saying "i'm sure that this investigation will determine that, under my leadership, the administration acted appropriately. i serve as the pleasure of the famu board of trustees, and i will abide by whatever decision the board reaches." and anderson, i can tell you that the board will be reaching a decision on monday. >> jason carroll as always, thanks very much. joining us is the foofrt of louisville professor ricky jones, director of the university center on race and inequality and also the author of a book "black haze: violence, sacrifice and manhood in black greek letter fraternities." what do you think first of all the governor calling for the suspension of florida, the florida a&m president? >> warranted. i think it's seriously warranted. if we look at the penn state situation, for instance, there's been a lot of talk about jerry sandusky and joe paterno but in academic circles there's talk

about graham spanier, seen as an ideal university president, but when things like this happen on your watch, and you don't take appropriate steps to speak to those things proactively, then changes have to be made, so spanier was out and i think the same thing is happening with ammons and if these moves are made more often i think presidents will be more aggressive in speaking to issues like hazing at famu. >> what do you think is at the core of this kind of hazing? i don't think a lot of people think about being a band as a place where there's hazing but there are subgroups within this band at florida a&m, a group from georgia which apparently robert champaign was part of and there are all of the different subgroups have their code of discipline. what gets to the core of this in your opinion? >> the drive of students to belong and that's why the arguments are made by folk who say look, people who consent to this are the folks who really have to stop and the practice will go away. they're absolutely wrong. you cannot put the entire onus on a group of students who

usually are between the ages of 18 and 24 years old. and they are driven by the desire to belong. so they're going to do a whole lot of things to belong. folk who will not submit to the behavior are folks who are not going to join the band, not going to join the greek letter organizations, any of these. so that's what's at the core of it. the bands are incredibly popular. student who join it, want to be accepted, don't want to be socially ostracized but the president and his administration should know that's a common practice. i know and i never attended famu or worked there. >> we had this debate on the program with you and roland martin, big response on twitter as well. you seem to say that this is isn't just hazing as people think about it at fraternities across the country, there's a level of aggression here or violence here that is different. correct? >> well, yeah. the record speaks for itself. you look at joel harris of morehouse college, michael

davis, krista highin los angeles, donny wade at prairie view university. these people are being beaten to death or drowned or folks are suffering brain damage, comat e comatose, all of these things so if people want to disagree with me, that's fine, if they want to disagree with my argument but they can't give me my argument and the point is this. i never said that hazing does not occur in white greek organizations. i never said that white greeks should not be suspended or disbanded. i'm simply saying that the manifest indicatiation of it is different in black greek groups. anderson, these are groups very difficult to have an honest and reasonable conversation with. you'll have folk who are affiliated with famu and with this band who will simultaneously say we really grieve for robert chachon and his family and pivot saying he shouldn't have consented this and the band can't go away. when did the organizations become so sacred we can't have conversations about banning them from our camp uses because

nothing else worked? >> why is this different than what happens at fraternities across the country or white fraternities? >> you know, there are so many theories on that and we would need a whole lot longer to discuss that, but it is clear that it is different. it's much more physical, and again, the white greeks do haze, but not as physical as the black greeks and we do not have the manifestations we see at hbcu bands and pwi bands, predominantly white institution bands. we don't see that behaviobehavi. >> you think the only way to stop this is to eliminate the organization totally, each limb nate the band. that's not really a practical solution, is it? >> i disagree. i think it is a practical solution. when you have talks about eliminating bands or eliminating greeks, people talk like this hasn't happened. this has happened at universities throughout this country. they've been private schools but the colbys, boughton college,

williams, they've eliminated greek systems and they'd eliminate bands if this was the way the bands are behaving. it's difficult at public universities and this is why i said not only do we need college and university administrators but also need elected officials to get involved in producing new laws that are going to speak to this because of right of association laws so i don't think that it is something that is beyond the pale. i understand i'm the minority in making that argument, certainly not making any friends from famu or band members or black greek organizations and i don't care. what are we going to do to preserve the lives of our students and universities throughout the country? that's more important than the preservation of a greek system or a band, and i really do wonder with folks who pivot and argue for these organizations and processes, what would they do and what would they say and how would they feel if they got a phone call at 3:00 in the morning saying that their son or their daughter had been beat on it death in one of these organizations? i think the argument would be

very different. >> it's fascinating, prover ricky jones i appreciate you being on again, thank you. >> thank you. breaking news out of washington, late word on a deal of keeping the government running and doing what lawmakers could have done months ago. still to come a strange twist to the penn state child sexual abuse scandal. the lawyer says his clients was showering with young boys because in some cases juvenile delinquents or young teens need "basic hygiene skills." we'll talk to that lawyer in a bit. plus bail is denied, academy award winning actor finds out celebrity in china does not open all doors. we'll be right back. and got us through the process twice now. quicken loans is definitely engineered to amaze. they were just really there for us.

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we have some breaking news out of washington on the budget deal. let's check in with kate bolduan monitoring what is going on. >> reporter: hey there an derson, some significant developments. we're told by democratic sources that a government shutdown is almost certainly been averted as the negotiators of this massive spending bill that would take the government and fund the government through the year 2012, they are signing that conference report as it's called but basically signing off on this funding bill this evening. of course, that would mean the next step is that both the house and senate would need to vote on this conference report, but almost certainly barring some

unforeseen problem i'll tell you, anderson, it appears that this evening they've reached a point where we can say that almost certainly a government shutdown has been averted, and much more, if i could go on, anderson, we're also told as senate majority leader harry reid was just leaving the capitol and we caught up with him. he said there are continuing negotiations on the other major issue we've been following, a major source of the standoff on capitol hill, extending this payroll tax cut, while those negotiations are continuing and i'm told by sources they are encouraged and making very significant progress in that regard that negotiators are also working on a fallback plan, if you will, a two-month extension of the payroll tax cut as well as unemployment assistance for the long-term unemployed, and another important end of your measure in order to ensure that come january 1st, a tax increase would set in place.

people stress to me only they wanted to assure as negotiations continue, they had something in place if they needed a fallback, anderson. >> do we know what allowed the deal to happen tonight? >> reporter: they've been honestly working all throughout the day, behind closed doors. we've been seeing shuffle ing i and out of offices. it seemed last night when the top members of the house and the senate finally sat down and had a face-to-face gut check it was described to me, that may have broken the logjam that they finally started talking and the two sides really started talking of how they can proceed and where is the "a" game and throughout the day it seems they were able to negotiate and deal with some of the outstanding issues as it's been described on this massive spending bill and they reached a point both sides were comfortable that the negotiation negotiators could finally sign off this evening. >> kate bolduan, appreciate the breaking news. let's look at other stories

we're following tonight, susan hendricks has the news. >> armed resistance in syria, anti-government sources tell cnn that army defectors killed as many as 27 security forces in the south today. a member of the pre-syrian army said its forces attacked a government military checkpoint, but cnn, we do want to point out cannot independently confirm this information. the "christian science monitor" reports that a u.s. stealth drone was intentionally brought down by the iranian military. the technique known as spoofing exploited a vulnerability known to the u.s. military. an iranian engineer quoted by "the monitor" says electronic warfare specialists cut off the drone's communication, took control of the gps, tricking it into landing. the parent company of victoria's secret says it will investigate a report that says some of its cotton is grown using child labor. the bloomberg reports profiles an abused 13-year-old girl at an organic trade farm.

victoria's secret reportedly bought the entire organic crop last season. >> why cannot i visit this ban? >> that is christian bale in china. before he left he tried to visit a blind human rights activist held in his home for more than 15 months. chinese security stepped in, making sure that did not happen. christian bale wanted to tell the man he was an inspiration, again, he wasn't allowed. anderson back to you. >> susan, thanks. file this shot under a couple of headings, adrenalin junkies, possible ways to die. do not try this at home. gadsden, alabama, three kayakers, one by one dropping 90 feet into a waterfall. they brought their stunt to the cities recreation department which are now considering banning kayaking all together. unbelievable and the third, look

at that. ay-yi-yi! ahh! i'm falling. yikes. crazy. a lawyer for former penn state coach jerry sandusky says some adults may need to teach some young boys how to use soap on their bodies, talk to him, the attorney now says those comments were taken out of context. i'll ask him exactly what he meant next. the judge in the amanda knox case says the prosecutors didn't prove she was guilty. that doesn't bode well for the appeal. get the technology they love, on the network they deserve. and video chat with up to 9 of your friends with the galaxy nexus by samsung, or get the samsung stratosphere,

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one of jerry sandusky's new lawyers is offering up a theory about why the former penn state assistant coach may have been taking showers with boys. sandusky has admitted to showering and having "horsed around" with boys although he's denied any sexual activity with his accusers. in an interview with the news station, whtm, the lawyer says adults may need to teach some kids how to wash themselves. >> and teaching a person to shower at the age of 12 or 14 would sound strange to some people but actually people work with troubled youth will tell you there are a lot of juvenile delinquents, people dependent have to be taught basic life skills like how to put soap on their body. >> attorney karl rominger joins me from pennsylvania. this has botten a lot of attention. you issued a statement earlier saying the media accounts of your comments about showering with young boys were "sbha exaggerated." how were they exaggerated? >> well, first let me tell you

if i'd actually said that, it would be to get on the ridiculist, because what i said was in response to a hypothetical. i was asked by the reporter, could you think of any reason why an adult man would ever get in a shower with a boy or a youth? and i offered that up as an answer to a hypothetical when they played it, they just played the clip of my answer, so it really was unfairly drawn out, i believe. and then it sort of took on a life of its own with the media. what's important is that's not what i'm saying jerry sandusky was doing. what i was saying in the aggregate was he didn't do anything criminal at any time with any of these children or any of these boys and therefore, it doesn't really matter whether being in the shower was smart or not smart. it simply wasn't criminal. >> just to be clear and i'm glad you're on to correct, if this was taken out of context as you're saying it was by this local station, you are not claiming that jerry sandusky, that that's one of his

motivations was to teach teenage boy how to use soap? >> no. no, and that is not what i was saying. i was answering literally, and i'm learning now from the national media here, you don't answer a hypothetical question because if they don't put the question with the answer you don't fairly evaluate what the answer actually was. my point is no, we're not saying -- sorry. >> even on a hypothetical question of can you imagine any reason why anybody would want to shower, i don't think, there may be some teenagers who need to learn how to use soap but they shouldn't necessarily, they don't necessarily need to be taught by somebody who is naked in the shower with them at the time. >> and i can see in a but i would point out when the local station did interview an expert they did agree with me at least that youth of that age and is in this case could possibly have hygiene problems but really that's a non-issue because i was answering as a hypothetical. it was one of 100 questions i was asked, and frankly, i really think that, and i'm going to set

the record straight, i'm not saying that's what jerry sandusky was doing, and i think that's the bottom line. like i said, i should be on your ridiculist if that's what i was saying. >> i'm glad you clarified what you meant to say. one of the comments that jerry sandusky has made, that has gotten a lot of attention was his response to bob costas. i want to play that for our viewers who may not be familiar with it. >> youry pedophile? >> no. >> are you sexually attracted to young boys to underaged boys? >> am i sexually attracted to underaged boys? >> yes. >>u sexually attracted, you kno, i enjoy young people. i love to be around them. i -- but no, i'm not sexually attracted to young boys. >> to a lot of people, that raises a lot of questions, and is not, you know, usually most people asked are you sexually

attracted to young boys, people say categorically no. >> i think he does almost say categorically no at the beginning but he repeats the question, says no, then expounds a little bit and reaffirms the no. i understand why some people might think that, the answer means something but i've said this before and i'll say it again, a very articulate person might have said it differently but a very articulate person could also mislead a jury. an inarticulate person says it like they mean it or says it in the best way they can and as a result he's being unfairly judged because his speech patterns are different than what somebody might want them to be. i assure you if you sit down with jerry as i have, that he often repeats the question back to you to be precise about what he's answering and to think it through. so i think it's really such a short snippet that's being held against him but if you talk to him for an hour you would think that's just how he talks. >> on piers morgan's program tuesday night i think it was you were sks about sandusky

showering with young boys which you conceded was strange behavior. you had this to stay about him. let's listen. >> i think if you met jerry again you would see he has a very juvenile affect and i believe that mentally and emotionally he's much more on par with a teenager than he is a 60-year-old. >> you can explain that? because it sounds almost like kind of what michael jackson used to say about he didn't have a childhood and he feels very, a kinship with teenagers. this is a grown man. >> i understand that, and listen, i don't know what the explanations could be, but that's the effect that i get and i heard the thing about the michael jackson thing before i was even involved in the case, and i thought it was kind of funny but then when i talked to him that's the impression i got but i would tell you again, if you sat down with him, and i'm hoping someday somebody would, the problem is, as you know, every time you sit down with the

media, it gets compounded down or gets pushed down into such a short blur be that it's impossible to really get the full feel for the man. he seems like a genuinely nice person. >> we'd love to have him on for a lengthy period of time, so obviously we'd put that request in with you and interested in just walking his shoes and hearing his story from him. >> and i understand that. >> do you want him to talk to the media? because some other attorneys out there, not associated with the case, have kind of raised questions about whether that's the best strategy, whether it's good to have him out there saying things, some other attorneys we talked to involved in the high-profile cases like this said you got to throw out the regular rule book in a case like this because there's such villification of your client at this point that he'd have to do something to at least push back a little bit. >> anderson, the villification in this case was so unique and so extreme, they actually fired joe paterno on the grand jury

presentment alone. joe paterno is one of the most beloved people in the history of pennsylvania and he was fired on the bald allegation written by the attorney general's office, the presentment. you can see the rush to judgment here so when joe decided to put him on the media, i think, and mark gra goes i believe said that w mark geragos i believe said you'd want in a case like this. the question is how much more do you do that? i think joe and jerry will decide that. i'm more of the technician than the ult national decider. >> i got to go quickly but karl i was really interested to see that over the course of time, what mcqueary has said seems to have shifted or there's multiple versions of it now at this point. i think a lot of people don't understand, we haven't even seen the grand jury, the actual grand jury testimony. we've only seen a summary of it. are you gaining confidence as

time goes on and as mcqueary's story or there appear to be multiple versions of it, are you gaining confidence in your client? >> joe amagdoula waived the hearing in part because mcqueary's credibility has fallen so low so yes, i think that is a bo auton and i'm interested tomorrow whether he takes the fifth or granted immunity. he's given so many different statements. if i were his attorney i couldn't in good conscience let him take the stand. >> karl rominger, thank you for being on our program. >> thank you, sir. >> let's talk about a little bit about mark geragos, and senior cnn legal analyst jeffrey took join. mark, what you make of the explanation, comments about adults showering with kids, do you buy he was taken out of context? >> i haven't seen the whole clip. i just saw the answer, but if

he's right and he was answering a hypothetical he's spot on and i understand it. you see it. it's one of the problems, frankly, with sitting down and doing taped interviews. it's one of the things that i find to be verboten. if you're going to get on, get on life or played from start to finish, otherwise they slice and dice whatever you're going to say and you end up getting some story that has legs when in fact it wasn't really what it was supposed to be in the first place. i mean he makes a point, a valid point, even in response to the hypothetical. anybody who has ever worked with troubled youth knows that there are situations where these people don't have basic skills, whether it's hygiene or coping skills or anything else. is that a true statement? yes, that is a true statement. if he was saying that's the defense for jerry sandusky, obviously that's going to be held up to ridicule. and he readily admits that, plus at the same time he gives a"ac

360" a plug talking about the ridiculist so who is going to argue with it? >> in light of what he's saying, jeff, do his comments make sense? >> i feel awkward because it's our business particularly in television to ask people to give interviews and cooperate with us and we should be grateful he did. i don't know why they're giving interviews. i don't see how this is helpful at all. i don't know why they're talking to joe becker of "the new york times." i don't know why the lawyers are on television. i don't think any of this is helpful. i'm not criticizing everything they do. i thought they were smart to waive the preliminary hearing. i didn't think that would accomplish anything for them but these interviews where they don't have an answer about what he was doing showering with young boys, all it does is remind people, he was showering with young boys. >> mark geragos on the program made an interesting point which is in some cases you throw out the rule book. as i said to the other attorney, the villification is to great you got to do something to put

some speed bumps up. >> if you have something to say in answer to the question, yes. i don't think as a categorical rule defense attorneys should never speak to the media but you have to have a plan or some answer that will at least sort of address the accusations. >> mark? >> jeff is so right about that. you know, when i say you throw out the rule book, it doesn't mean you throw out your common sense. what you do and i think one of the things you've got to do when you want to try and stem this tide and at this point it's a tsunami, is have a mantra, and you think it through. i mean i can think about various cases that ended up in acquittals where our mantra was what was our closing argument, and that's what it is. you don't sit there -- if i'm going to critique anything it's the idea of sitting there for an hour and a half with somebody. you don't do that. you're going to take a slight period of time and you're going to come out with a mantra and you're going to repeat that mantra and that's going to be

the same theme that's going to be your defense so you can somehow hold back what is this unbelievable in this case rush to judgment as he's characterized it, and frankly, that, the statement that he made about joe paterno, you could distill that down into a couple of sentences and that could have been the statement. hey, you know, all this was a grand know, all this was was a grand jury presentment. what the heck are we doing here? hold off and let's wait until we get into a courtroom and we hear some evidence. >> and also these high profile cases, defense attorneys say oh, there's this tremendous rush to judgment. there are a lot of high profile acquittals. whether oj simpson, michael jackson. people beat these cases, and it's not because their lawyers go on tv, it's because they prepare for trial. >> always good to have you on. thank you. still ahead, the war in iraq officially ended today. we're going to be right boack

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>> it is a profound honor to be here in baghdad on this very historic occasion. >> over the next few days, a small group of american soldiers will begin the final march out of that country. those last american troops will move south on desert sands, and then they will cross the border out of iraq with their heads held high. america's war in iraq will be over. >> we will never forget the lessons of war. men and women of the united states armed forces who served in places like fallujah and ramadi and sadr city. >> my battling and building block by block in baghdad, by bringing tribes into the fold and partnering with the iraqi army and police, you helped turn the tide towards peace. >> this outcome was never certain. especially during the war's

darkest days. you came to this land between the rivers. again and again. >> more than 1.5 million americans have served in iraq. 1.5 million. over 30,000 americans have been wounded. and those are only the wounds that show. it was a source of great controversy here at home with patriots on both sides of the debate, but there was one constant, your commitment to fulfill your mission. that was constant. >> you will leave with great pride. lasting pride. secure in knowing that your sacrifice has helped the iraqi people begin a new chapter in history. >> and on behalf of a grateful nation, i'm proud to finally say these two words, and i know your families agree, welcome home.

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