we don't know who they are, but you can be sure that don does and the trouble is he doesn't like it. nope, he's moving. he's going to leave buford and go live near his son, a long way from buford. buford without don sammins? it's just unthinkable.goh. we begin tonight keeping them honest with more developments in the trayvon martin killing. from the beginning we've been getting fresh, sometimes contradictory clues to what happened that night, some of it supporting george zimmerman's claim, that he shot the unarmed teen in self-defense. other evidence casting doubt on it. tonight no exception. we're keeping them honest, trying to bring you all pictures

of the puzzle so you can decide for yourself based on the evidence what happened that night. today a leegd forensic audio expert listened to george zimmerman's 911 call and weighed in on whether zimmerman uttered a racial slur when he got out of his suv to follow martin i.'s only 1.6 seconds of audio. but it's important because the federal government is investigating this as a possible hate crime. the audio could be a major piece of evidence. the fbi is certainly treating it that way doing their own analysis of the tape. before we go further, a warning about the language. if you want to send the kids out of the room, now would be a good time. so about the phrase. some believe they hear zimmerman saying fing coons. others hear what our enhanced audio hear, f'ing cold. >> i don't want to say what a lot of people are saying it sounds like, but let's let the

viewer hear it and make their own conclusion. [ inaudible ]. >> it does sound less like that racial slur, last timed i acknowledged the possibility that it sounded like that slur, from sitting in this state-of-the-art room, it doesn't sound like that anymore. >> today another interpretation, this time fing punks. here is the newest enhanced version done by tom owen of owen forensic services. so what do you think? it's not easy to know. tom owen says he thinks owen was saying punks. zimmerman's lawyers claim he told them this is exactly what he said.

this would seem to be good news in the zimmerman camp. it's a claim his father repeated last night on fox news. >> george was there yelling for help for at least 40 seconds. it's clearly him on the tape. there's absolutely no doubt about who it is. a neighbor came, saw what was happening, saw george being being, heard george yelling for help. the neighbor said he was calling 911 also when asked about whether his son has ever, that he knew of used a racial slur, robert zimmerman said, and i'm quoting him, none whatsoever. he described george zimmerman as someone who tutored african-american children and spoke out against the african-american policeman who beat a homeless man.

he said it's sad that people are not telling the truth about the case for their own agenda suggesting it's a racial agenda. more now on how big a role race did or didn't play is playing or should or shouldn't play in this tragedy. joining us, professor boys cat wins of syracuse university, the founder of yourblackworld.com, also vanderbilt university law professor carol swain. thanks for coming in. boyce watkins, we don't know what happened the night zimmerman shot trayvon martin. we don't know whether it was racially motivated. you think rates is a huge part of this story. tell us why. >> because i think it's quite reasonable to believe what happened to trayvon that night would not have happened had he been white. all things that led to zimmerman finding him suspicious, chasing

him down and eventually killing him all relates back to him being a young black man. part of the reason this case has sparked so much controversy around the world is because there are millions of people who can identify with that, millions of black men including myself, women as well, who know what it's like to look suspicious even when you don't done anything wrong. to somehow extract race from the case of trayvon martin would border on the delusional actually. >> carol, you say the whole discussion about george zimmerman shouldn't be racialized, shall we say. explain what we mean. >> i don't believe that the black leaders should be using race in the way they have and encouraged young black men to wear hood december. those hood december feed into the stereo type. unfortunately in america when you look at the crime rate among young black men wearing those hood december, all of that

raises the suspicion that causes them to be viewed as potentially criminal. i am a mother and i raised two black males. we lived in predominantly white neighborhoods. my children were trailed, they were stopped by police. they had to learn how to carry themselves and how to dress in such a way that they wouldn't raise suspicion. i think we should be teaching our young people how to present themselves in such a way that they don't necessarily feed into the negative stereotypes. >> professor watkins, some including yourself have called for an economic boycott of sanford, florida, if george zimmerman is not arrested. tell our viewers why you support this? >> i support the boycott as of right now when you look at what's going on in sanford and what has happened in sanford,

it's not a stretch to think there could be serious corruption going on there. if you look through out the history of george zimmerman, you find this man who is the son of a judge has been allowed to walk free on many offense that is would have landed a guy like me in jail. i think there are people shaking in their boots in the sanford government that realize they've been complicit in allowing this man to escape punishment for things he's done in the past. i think everyone should be investigated, his father should be investigated, all these individuals who may have obstructed justice now and in the past should be investigated. the last quick point i'll make is the hoodie is not on trial. trayvon martin is not on trial, george zimmerman should be on trial. >> the stereotypes are. the stereotypes are. >> if i want to walk outside and wear a hoodie, nobody has a right to kill me. that's like saying a woman who wears a short skirt deserves to be raped. >> that's over the top.

that's over the top. that's part of the problem. >> i don't see why it's over the top. >> as long as black men -- young black men have such a high crime rate, and there are a lot of crimes that we could be talking about, it feeds into that stereotype. the economic boycott, all that's going to do is hurt the community, it will hurt black people, white people, hispanics, the businesses. >> what you're saying is dr. king was just a big troublemaker. you're saying when dr. king organized boy cots he was being a troublemaker, making things work. >> i think thoe era for boy cot are over. >> you can't blame the victim. we can't do that. >> look at the black-on-black crime rate. we have a problem in the black community. the only thing the black leaders have done is to boost the sales of hood december and skittles. they need to teach young black men and women have to comport themselves in such a way that they don't draw attention to the

negative stereotypes. >> let's be clear -- let's be clear. many of us are going around the country talking to young black men about how to conduct themselves, make good choices and live a good life. we can't presume that's not what's happening. >> that's not what al sharpton and some of these other people are doing. >> al sharpton is not the focus of the discussion here. >> all you're doing is racializing every irn you. it doesn't benefit the black community. the only thing this is about -- >> this issue racialized itself. >> it's being used in an opportunistic fashion. it has to do -- >> that is not true. >> it has to do with trying to boost black turnout for the next election. i think it's part of the electoral politics. >> that is not true. >> i hope not. >> when zimmerman identified trayvon as being suspicious,

made the decision to chase down this black man he thought looked suspicious and shoot him in cold blood, that's what racialized this issue. >> let me interrupt. you're both talking and it's hard to understand what's going on. professor watkins, explain why an entire community, sanford, florida, families, business owners, white, black, none of whom had anything to do with the death of trayvon martin why they should be punished by a boycott because of the actions of george zimmerman? >> because the boycott is sending a message to say whatever is happening in that government, the corruption that's harming so many people needs to be dealt with. again, when you have a boycott, when you impose economic sanctions, there are going to be people who are affected who didn't have anything to do with what actually happened. what has to happen is there has to be some sort of action to per swaet the citizens of the city and that government to shake itself down, clean and sort of deal with some of these issues. >> a good serious discussion

from both of you, we could go on. i think you both made your points, you made them both well. boyce watkins, carol swain, appreciate your coming on. >> thank you. >> so whatever role race may or may not play in the case, recent history in sanford and elsewhere gives many in the african-american community reason to suspect and in some cases fear the police. on his blog, film director tyler perry describes a tense traffic stop he had with police in atlanta. he's also calling attention to the disappearance in florida of two men whose last known encounter was with a now fired but never prosecuted sheriff's deputy. details from randi kaye. >> reporter: marcy yeah williams hasn't seen her son in more than eight years. >> do you have any hope your son is still alive? >> i don't believe terrence is alive. at this point i have to find out what happened to him. >> reporter: what happened to terrence williams is anybody's guess. he was last seen outside this

names, florida, cemetery on january 11th, 2004 with this man, sheriff's deputy steve caulk ins. >> reporter: raters say his story doesn't add up. at one points caulk kins says he pulled terrence williams' car over because it was having problems. when he called his friend in dispatch, he report the car had been abandoned. he never led on he had any contact with the driver, terrence williams. >> i have a homely cadillac on the side of the road here, signal 11, signal 52, nobody around. maybe he's out there in the cemetery. >> reporter: but if the driver was not around, how then was deputy caulk kins able to run a background check using terrence's name and birthday. >> last name? >> yms, common spelling. >> date of birth? >> 4-1-75.

black male. >> reporter:iest just four days later caulk kins claims to remember nothing of the car or the driver. listen what he says when a sheriff's dispatcher calls him at home. >> you toed a car from vanderbilt and 111th monday. do you remember it? >> no. >> she said it was near the cemetery. the people at the cemetery are telling her you put somebody in the back of your vehicle and arrested somebody. >> i never arrested nobody. >> isn't that amazing. he's a seasoned veteran and he couldn't remember four days later. >> you don't buy that? >> no, it's not true. it's not true at all. >> reporter: eight days after terrence vanished, deputy caulk kins was invited to write a report. it's in this report a different story emerges. deputy caulk kins says he drove the father of four to a nearby

circle k where he says terrence worked. it's that version of events that concerned investigators because just months earlier they heard the same story from deputy caulk kins about another missing man, 23-year-old philippe santos vanished october 14th, 2003 after deputy caulk kins responded to the scene of a minor accident involving santos. he issued santos a citation and put him in the back of the sheriff's car. santos's brother who was also at the scene asked we hide his face out of fear for his own safety. >> did he tell you where he was taking your brother. >> translator: the officer never told us anything. later we went to the jail and my brother wasn't there. >> reporter: when caulk kins was questioned about philippe santos, an undocumented worker, he told investigators he dropped him off at a circle k. sheriff's investigator kevin o'neill. >> we have no independent corroboration of anybody says they saw williams or santos of

one of these circle k's. that's strictly caulk kins's testimony. >> reporter: o'neill says neither of the missing men was ever seen on circle k security cameras. and there's more. about a month after terrence williams disappeared, steve caulk kins gave a sworn statement during an interrogation. he told investigators he called this circle k where he says he dropped terrence williams off. he told investigators he made that call from his work-issued nextel phone. but when investigators said they pulled his phone records and told him there was no record of a call to this circle k from his cell phone, he brushed it off saying, simply, quote, i don't know what to tell you. >> you've been doing this for a long time. you know when something doesn't smell right. do you think deputy caulk kins had anything to do with the disappearance and possible death of these two men? >> he's absolutely in the middle of the investigation. everything i turn to brings me right back to steve caulk kins.

>> reporter: months after santos and williams went missing, deputy caulk kins, a 16-year veteran was fired for lying in connection with the investigation for terrence williams. caulk kins hasn't been charged with a crime because no criminal evidence was ever found linking caulkins to the disappearances. in the case of williams, investigators say the car was searched and described as immaculate. his home was never searched because according to investigators they didn't have the evidence needed for a search warrant. we wanted to ask steve caulkins some questions, but couldn't get past this woman. >> hello? >> yes. >> hi. sorry to bother you. i'm randi kaye with cnn. i'm looking for steve caulkins. >> you can get the camera out of our property, please. >> he's not on your property. >> bye. >> is he here? >> bye. >> reporter: in 2006 caulkins

did tell a local paper he didn't do anything wrong, blaming the coincidences of the missing men on very bad luck. he suggested maybe they ran away. >> if terrence was alive, terrence would have had somebody to contact his mother. i know for sure that's one thing he would do in a heartbeat, call my mamma. >> reporter: randi kaye, cnn, naples, florida. >> let us know what you think. we're on facebook and google plus or follow me on twitter @wolf blooet blitzer cnn. is president obama trying to muscle the supreme court with his remarks on the health care case or are conserving freaking out including a federal judge who took action that our normally low-key legal analyst calls, and i'd quoting -- jeffrey toobin standing by along with jay secula. ♪

[ male announcer ] dow solutions use vibration reduction technology to help reduce track noise so trains move quieter through urban areas all over the world. together, the elements of science and the human element can solve anything. [ all ] shh! [ male announcer ] solutionism. the new optimism.

with odor free aspercreme. powerful medicine relieves pain fast, with no odor. so all you notice is relief. aspercreme. a very strange chapter in american history is unfolding right now. and jeffrey toobin is right at the center of it, along with the president of the united states. we'll explain why in just a moment is, shall we say, a little ticked off. >> what these judges have done is a disgrace.

what president obama said was entirely appropriate. there's nothing wrong, nothing controversial. he said i signed a law passed by the democratically elected congress and i think it's constitutional. these judges give the justice department a homework assignment, a three-page letter, single-spaced explaining what the president said. they don't have to explain what the president said. that was a perfectly appropriate comment by the president. it just shows how some of these republican judges are just deranged by hatred of the president. >> here's what he's talking about. president obama's defense of the health care reform law now before the supreme court. >> i'm confident that the supreme court will not take what would be an unprecedented extraordinary step of overturning a law that was passed by a strong majority of a democratically elected congress. >> harvard law professor

laurence tribe said president obama obviously misspoke and not giving people enough legal context to understand the point he was making. and the republicans pounced with mitch mcconnell saying and i'm quoting him now, the president crossed a dangerous line this week. and judge jerry smith, a reagan appointee on the fifth circuit court of appeals demanded and got a kind of history term paper from the justice department which sar guing a health care case before his panel. three pages, single spaced, showing president obama understands that judges do in fact, have the power to review and strike down laws. something a high school student should know has been a fact since 1803. jeff toobin is joining us with jay sekulow from the american center for law and justice. jeff, first to you. can federal judges be distressed by what the president said without being characterized as

deranged by hatred? >> absolutely not. this is a phony controversy from day one. what obama said in its full context is completely appropriate and uncontroversial. of course the president knows that judges can declare laws unconstitutional. his own administration is asking the courts to declare the defense of marriage act unconstitutional. they declare laws unconstitutional every year. every first year law student, most college students know that. obama didn't suggest otherwise. he simply said under the precedence of the commerce clause which is relevant in the health care law, he thinks the supreme court should uphold this law. there's nothing wrong with that. >> jay, i know you disagree with jeff on this. if politics and ideology permeated the judiciaries to really damaging levels at least in some instances. >> well, look, the damage here was the president of the united states chastises in essence the supreme court of the united

states on a case they heard the week before. it was my friend jeff toobin who said last week that the administration had a train wreck on one day and plane wreck the next day in oral arguments. and the president defending his position calls justices that would overturn an act of congress, a law signed by the president judicial activists. the rest of the quote said unelected judges. the fact of the matter is this. a, the fifth circuit, did they have the right to ask for that letter brief? sure. i've had cases where we have had an oral argument. during the questioning they will ask for additional briefing on a point. are a lot of judges upset about this? they don't like to be called what the president did. and the unprecedented aspect of this in my view, wolf, is the president not only talked about judicial philosophy but a case currently before the court that was argued, voted on last week, opinions being written and we don't know which way the case is going to go. i think it will be close, i suspect. and i think lawrence tribe was right. when he said the president

misspoke. jeff, i understand you want to take it to a broader context which is what the administration tried to do on tuesday and wednesday. but the fact of the matter is the president acted and made that statement as if it was shocking that a court might overturn a decision or a law signed by the president passed by congress. by the way, that was mistake number one. of course the court can do it. mistake number two, this is not legislation passed with wide support. i mean, who are we kidding here? this was closely divided in congress and closely divided the supreme court. >> it was along partisan lines, but the democrats in the house and the senate had a significant majority. >> jeff, lawrence tribe, a constitutional law scholar, ally of the president, he said that presidents should generally refrain from commenting on pending cases during the process of judicial deliberation. do you think the president regrets making those comments? >> well, i couldn't speak for barack obama. i don't know what he is thinking right now. i think the point is those of us who are watching, those of us who are trying to be fair here, recognize this is a huge case, a

huge issue. this is the signature piece of legislation that he has signed as president of the united states. and you bet he thinks it's constitutional. and he has every right to say that. i think this idea that the constitution and judges are these delicate flowers that you can't criticize, you can't say anything. they are very powerful people. the constitution sets up a system where they are insulated from political pressure. what can barack obama do to the supreme court justices? he can withhold invitations to state dinners. >> why did he make the statement? >> because he's the president of the united states. this is a pressing national issue. >> do you know another president of the united states during a case that was argued and pending that made a statement about how the outcome of the case can be and talking about unelected judges. and calling someone that would strike the law as unconstitutional judicial activists? can you name a president? >> you asked a lot of things.

there are a lot of different pieces of your question. >> just the one. >> the recent president bush, used to talk about judicial activism all the time. >> sure. >> judges not legislating from the bench. >> not on a particular case, which was pending. >> so what? >> right. i don't think that matters. >> i think that makes a big difference. wolf, they are co equal branch of government here. >> exactly. coequal branches of government that are not insulated from criticism. >> guys, we're going to leave it right there because i know you disagree. hold your thoughts, guys. there's going to be plenty of time between now and june when the supreme court rules on this for us to continue this conversation. thanks for coming in. an 80-year-old wisconsin woman is getting kudos from experienced pilots. she had to take over when her husband collapsed at the controls of the cessna. the plane was almost out of fuel. she doesn't have a pilot's

license but nerves of steel. plenty. listen. >> i've go at to land pretty quick. my gas gauge shows nothing. >> okay. we'll get it the next time around.

helen collins is alive tonight and that is nothing short of amazing. this is one of those stories that makes you wonder what you would have done in the same situation. could you have pulled off what helen did? there are two things you should consider. helen doesn't have a pilot's license, though she has flown many years at her husband's side. she's also 80 years old. once again, here's randi kaye. >> good thing helen collins was paying attention all those years flying around in small planes with her husband. on monday, 2,000 feet above the

ground, helen's husband, john collins, who was piloting the plane, had a heart attack and lost consciousness. with her husband slumped over the controls, this 80-year-old wisconsin grandmother did what most of us probably could not. she took control of the twin engine cessna. low on fuel and without a pilot's license, helen began to maneuver towards cherry land airport, 150 miles north of milwaukee. her heroic efforts were recorded. one thing she makes clear right away she needs to land fast. >> you better get me in there pretty soon. i don't know how long i'm going to have gas. >> if helen was nervous she hardly let it show. friends on the ground at the airport were alerted to the emergency and quickly made contact. >> hi, helen, this is cathy. >> hi, cathy. hell of a place to be. >> okay, helen, we are going to launch another aircraft. it will come up and it will fly right next to you and give you instructions.

>> within seven minutes, the pilot was in the air in another plane. helen had herself a wingman. everything he did, she did. >> she was confident. she wanted to know if i was confident in her confidence. and i said, well, if you're confident, i'm confident. i think we're confident. i think we can do this. >> despite the fact that helen hadn't had a flying lesson in years, he said she was familiar with some of the switches. but he thought she was coming in too fast and too high so he had her do some practice runs. but when her wing man asked to close the road, she questioned his confidence in her. >> it's going to be a little bit of a flight lesson. but you'll enjoy it. >> what do you mean by close the road? >> i'm talking to the people on the ground, helen. >> don't you have any faith in me? >> i do. i don't trust the drivers on the road. >> the final approach was tricky. an eyewitness caught it all on tape. >> turn left. turn left. left turn, left turn. helen, turn left. keep the nose up. that's it. that's it.

>> not only was helen out of fuel, but her right engine was out. her wingman shouted urgent commands. >> nose down. nose down. turn right a little bit. turn right. okay, bring the nose down, nose down. come, on get down. get down. bring the power back. power back. reduce the power. reduce the power, over. reduce the power. nose down, over. helen, do you read me? >> i read you. >> about 45 minutes after this nightmare began, helen landed best she could. >> she did a great job, came down and landed a little less than three points. landed on the nose. >> her plane bounced hard off the runway and then skidded about 1,000 feet. >> power off, power off, power off. okay. you're down. great job, helen. great job. >> helen escaped with a few minor injuries. all those years of flying with her husband paid off. he was later pronounced dead at the hospital. but no doubt he would have been proud.

randi kaye, cnn, atlanta. as you just saw, helen collins had a wingman who helped guide her down. he's joining us right now. truly amazing story. talk about when you first made radio contact with the woman. >> okay, well, we got to the airport, helen was talking on the airport frequency. and the airport manager was conversing with her, and my wife and i we quickly made an analysis of the situation, along with the manager, that we had to maintain contact with helen at all times. and my wife is very good at flight instructing and human factors of calming people down and allowing them to be very receptive to instruction. i thought -- i thought after

watching helen fly the cessna that we were going to need a different perspective than that from the ground. my wife opted to help manage the radio and conversing with helen while i procured an aircraft, which happened to be helen and john's second aircraft. a beach bonanza, and went airborne to fly her wing to see what was happening with the aircraft as far as performance goes. >> was there ever a moment when you scrambled to get into the other plane that you thought this was not going to necessarily have a happy ending? >> that's -- you have to think positive. and i've been -- it's been claimed that i might be overly positive, but i find one thing in aviation. if you're not thinking of a positive outcome and working very diligently at a positive outcome, that's when it becomes very difficult.

so i just keep a positive attitude and worked toward a successful outcome and it worked -- it worked that way. in fact, when i was talking to helen, i could tell her in her voice that she was as determined as i was to get her on the ground safely. >> and her landing, and you have said this, it was more than just successful. explain. >> the landing, in fact, i was discussing it with one of my aviator friends when i was flying for midwest express, i had the run out to los angeles, california. and we were on a redeye flight. i was sitting at the entryway to the north -- north side of the airport, east/west runways and i saw a delta md-11 came in and make a landing identical to hers. i told her, she's a hero in my book, she did exactly textbook

for a very, very low-time pilot or nonpilot i should say. it was outstanding how she kept the aircraft under control at all times and stayed with it. never gave up. that's the secret of successful outcome in aviation. >> it certainly is. robert, thank you very much and thank your wife as well. appreciate everything you did. >> oh, you're welcome. 80-year-old grandmother. what an amazing story. tonight, in our groundbreaking special report on kids and race, we hear from parents. their teenagers told us how they felt about interracial dating and they didn't mince any words. just ahead, what parents had to say about statements like this. >> do you think your parents would be fine if you decided to start dating a black girl, brought her home? >> um, honestly, my parents probably wouldn't be too happy because if i was to marry that girl, you're connected to their family now and who knows what her family is really like.

we're talking once again tonight about the intersection of the trayvon martin killing and racial attitudes. tonight we continue our groundbreaking "ac 360" special report. "kids on race: the hidden picture," with a look at

interracial dating. teens spoke about it freely. instead of a racial divide it exposed a general racial divide. all of them said they would date someone of a different race. according to the expert for the study, it's not only common for parents to discourage interracial dating but the anxiety about it could seep into the messages they send to their kids about race when they're much younger. anderson and soledad o'brien sat down with the parents of teens who talked about interracial dating and the harsh realities of racism that this youngest generation continues to face. take a look. >> first of all, thank you very much for doing this. i want to play something jimmy said about a joke he had heard in school. i want to play that. >> it was like saying racist jokes. >> okay. >> and what were some of the jokes? >> how do you get a black person down from a tree? yeah. you cut the rope. i didn't find that one very funny. i didn't find any of them very funny.

>> it was surprising those jokes were being told. does that surprise you? >> it really does. i remember that day. and he came home. he was really upset about it. and it was shocking. it really was. because, you know, i don't think racism, even though it's not a part of our home, i don't think it will probably ever go away. we wish that it would. i think somehow it will just be around. because some people cannot get past a person because of their color. >> i tell them, you know, son, stay away from the those kind of friends. if that's how they are talking that racist stuff like that, stay away from them. because i don't want it in his head. me and my family, i grew up. my mom, alabama, where she's from. and she never, ever -- i cannot remember her ever speaking about us hating a different race. ever. so we don't promote it in our

home with our kids ever. >> any of your kids have boyfriends and girlfriends? >> definitely. >> 13. that's so young. >> a lot of conversations about interracial dating. it was really interesting. i want to play a little clip first from jimmy. here's what he said. >> do people start dating in middle school? other people who are couples? >> yes. >> do you have a girlfriend? >> no. >> if you were to have a girlfriend and she was a white girl and you brought her home, what would your mom or dad say? >> i don't know. it's just when i tell my parents i had dated a white girl and they said, well -- they're not racist, but they said why not your own kind? because all my girlfriends are white. >> so they are not that excited about it. >> it's not like you need to choose a black girl just why a -- why do you like white girls? no reason. >> tell me about that conversation. >> i remember that conversation. i remember that conversation well.

you know, like you said, we don't care. but when you see your kid always steering towards a different race, you want to make sure that he doesn't have a problem with his own race. that's basically why we sit and drill them and talk to them about you have a problem with your own race? you know? because we never seen them with a black girlfriend. >> which brings us to luke. we asked him also about interracial dating. here's what he said. >> do you think your parents would be fine if you started to date a black girl, brought her home? >> my parents honestly wouldn't be too happy because if i was to marry a black girl, you're connected to their family now. and who knows what her family is really like. >> so they probably wouldn't be that excited about it? >> probably not. >> where do you think that comes from? >> we have an older daughter. she came home one day and

informed me she started going out with an african-american young man or a black young man at the school. the young man we liked a lot. it wasn't that we didn't so much want them dating because of race per se, we didn't know if she really thought about some of the cultural differences there may be. so we talked about it in that respect. in fairness and to be honest, we do recognize that sometimes there are cultural differences. and we did talk about that. not that it's right or wrong, good or bad, but just different. and we played the scenario out with our daughter in that respect. and we have several friends who are married that are in interracial marriages and they have great marriages. they also shared challenges at times. we try to be as open and honest as we can in talking about those kind of issues. again, not to dissuade or to discourage but just to get it out there on the table and to make sure we have talked about those kind of things because they're real. so i think that's more of our conversation than with our

13-year-old, with the older children. >> but they listen. they always listen. >> they do. >> let's talk about chantay. chantay says she has a double standard. listen. >> if i were to date a white guy, a lot of people really wouldn't have a problem with that. but if my brother were to bring home a white girl, there's definitely going to be some controversy. >> from whom, your parents or you? >> from me. from me. >> isn't that contradictory? you can date a white boy but your brother, forget it if he dated a white girl? >> really it's more of a problem for people when a black man brings home a white woman. because it's been like that for years. oh, you know, you know, a black girl and black guy just broke up. he left you for a white girl? you know, that's just really what people say. >> so it would matter to you?

>> i think it would, unless of course she were not to act so quote/unquote white. >> what does that mean? >> you know, flipping the hair. oh, my god. ha, ha, they're so ghetto. no. >> so she has to be the right kind of white girl? >> i guess so. >> wow. so much to go to on that. >> which way you want to go? >> where do you think that comes from? >> i think when she speaks about if her brother were to bring home a white girl, what it says, i think, to our kids, our black kids is are we not good enough for our black brothers. what's wrong with us? you know, why -- do you like the silky straight hair? i can press my hair. it gives them a sense of, you

know, like they're not -- exactly. exactly. i think. >> did it surprise you to hear her say that? >> absolutely not. >> it was so funny. >> i just wasn't surprised. it doesn't say anything about, you know, how she feels about the other cultures or ethnicities. it just says more i think about what she thinks about herself. this would definitely spark a conversation for us. ignite -- to touch on some issues, because it never dawned on me to ask her specifically if she felt a certain way about her brother bringing home another race. i didn't think she cared. >> i think listening to luke's comments there that we will be more purposeful and intentional about talking about it. i feel like we tried to be over the years with our other children, but i think probably there may be some questions he

would have for us. i would not want him to think we would be displeased if he came home and had a black or korean or filipino friend or girlfriend. i wouldn't want him to think we'd be upset or wouldn't welcome her less than anyone else. >> will this change the conversations you have? >> i think so in our household. we don't talk negativity about racism. they don't have a negative view because it's not coming from us. i love that because i see the joy in them. i figure if you're a racist or if you've got it in you, at some point you're going to be miserable. if he encounters something, we'll address it, we get past it. we'll tell them straight, okay, that's just that one person. it's not everybody of that color. >> yeah. well, thank you so much for taking part in this. we really appreciate it. >> thank you. i appreciate it as well. truly, eye opening. in other news tonight, we'll

show you the face of a monster, the face of a real monster. new photos of convicted mass murderer charles manson. the first we've seen in three years. ♪ i can do anything today ♪ i can go anywhere ♪ i can go anywhere today ♪ la la la la la la la [ male announcer ] dow solutions help millions of people by helping to make gluten free bread that doesn't taste gluten free. together, the elements of science and the human element can solve anything. solutionism. the new optimism.

i'm susan hendricks with the 360 news and business bulletin. new developments in the new orleans saints bounty scandal. newly released audio tapes capture greg williams, the team's former defensive coordinator, urging mem players to hurt members of the opposing team. listen. >> kill the head and the body. we've got to make sure that we kill frank gore's head. we want him running sideways.

we want his head sideways. i want to show you this. the california department of corrections releasing the first photos of charles manson in three years. the pictures of the 77-year-old were taken last june. greg mortensen settled a lawsuit alleging he fabricated stories in "three cups of tea." he'll repay $1 million to the charity he cofounded. fans of "the hunger games" can own a big piece of the hit movie. the town in north carolina which served as the set for much of the film it's up for sale. the owner is selling all 72 acres for a cool $1.4 million. stay put. we'll be right back.