find today's interviews, some analysis, and web exclusiveives at our website. cnn.com/sotu. for our viewers in the united states, fareed zakaria "gps" starts right now. this is gps in the global public square. i'm fareed zakaria. we have a terrific show for you today. making stops in many places around the globe. we start with what i believe is the single biggest threat to global stability right now, tennings between israel and iran. have a new round of sanctions eased israel's security concerns? i'll ask its defense minister ahud barack. then to another trouble spot, the afghan-pakistan region. with koran burnings and protests now in the past, will the united states be able to draw down

troops without leaving chaos in its wake? next up, debt, shedding real light on our present situation in the united states and europe. we have the author of a phenomenal new book, phillip kogan. i'll explain. first, here's my take. some of you regular viewers will recall that at the start of the first show of this year i predicted hopefully that the u.s. woo economy would recover nicely in 2012. i'm returning to that topic with some preliminary good news. if you look around the industrialized world, the u.s. economy is the most promising of the bunch. the american recovery is not as vigorous as one might hope, but it is remarkably broadbased. manufacturing is up, including for the first time in 30 years nontechnology manufacturing. retail sales are up. consumer confidence and spending

are growing. consider sales are up. the stock market reflects this. >> two areas of the economy that continue to lag are jobs and housing. both critical areas. generating economic growth and profits continues to be easier than creating jobs as this week's data showed. housing, for its part, has traditionally led every recovery since world war ii. this time it hasn't because of the bursting of the housing bubble and the problems associated with mortgages and housing debt. at some point that will end. the united states alone in the industrialized world is demographically dynamic. kids don't want to live with their parents, and that will produce demand for housing, and at that point the recovery will

gain full steam. the new process of fracking, and america now has 75 years of natural gas, and most important, it is the world's low cost producer of natural gas. that's why manufacturers like dow chemical are actually opening new factories in the united states. you see, asia has an advantage. lower labor costs, but now the u.s. has an advantage, lower energy costs than asia, and this is a process that has just begun. add all this together, and you have the prospects of a broadbased sustainable american recovery.

>> it would send oil prices sky-high and could have other spill-over effects, and to shed light on that issue, we begin the show with a conversation with ehud barack, so let's get started. joining me from tel aviv, the former prime minister and current defense minister of israel, ehud barack. welcome back to the show. >> thank you for having me. >> you have long argued that we need more pressure on iran. president obama announced recently that he believes that there is sufficient oil in the world. the supplies of oil in the world are sufficient to pursue an even more stringent set of sanctions. these will be the tightest, harshest sanctions that have ever been put in place, i think, against any country.

do you think this will be enough to put the kind of pressure on iran that you have ped stwloosh no one can predict, fareed. it's clear that the depths of the sanctions different than what we have in the past, and its impact both the closing of the it probably len courage them to move, but to tell you the truth, we hope for the better, but i don't believe that this amount of sanctions and pressure will bring the iranian leadership to the conclusion that they have to stop their nuclear military program. >> if they were to make -- if the iranians were to make some proposal or agree to some

proposal, would you be satisfied with the israeli government -- would the israeli deposit be satisfied if they were to accept some version of an international inspections regime or to accept that the enriched uranium be made in russia? are these kind of compromises ones that you could accept as a solution to this problem? >> fareed well, see the iranian nuclear military program as a challenge for the whole world. not just to israel. we are convinced that to deal with it once its nuclear will be much more complicated, much more dangerous, much more costly in terms of both human life as well as financial.

>> mainly the p5 plus one will demand clearly that no more enrichment to 20%. all the enrichment material out of the country to enable and trust the country. >> the p5 plus one will set for much low attrition like just top enriching 20%. it means that basically at the very cheap cost they go to continue their military problem, slightly slower, but without sanctions. that would be a total change of direction for the world. >> if that were to happen, if the iranians were to -- if you were to end up with what you regard as a suboptimal or less than perfect solution, you have argued that israel has a closing window of opportunity to act because at a certain point the iranian sites get hardened.

do you believe it would then be necessary? is there a time pressure on you? do you believe that you have only a certain amount of time before which military strikes would not be effective against iran? >> you know, by definition we have limited time. every quarter it becomes shorter by a quarter. i expressed my view that we don't have to make a decision next week. it's not a matter of years before israel it will be practically kind of deprived from the possibility to contemplate what could be done. that's not the real issue. i really feel it is a major turn for the whole world. are you really seeing it as a critical time for the rest of the world as well. i really think that the tightest

possible sanctions -- that should be racheted in the way that you effectively -- >> you don't have much more than a year, so in effect, you're saying that there is a fairly clear timeline here that around sometime in the next nine to 12 months something has to get negotiated that stops iranian enrichment. otherwise, israel will feel compelled to act. >> you know, you go beyond -- you go much beyond what i have said. we don't have any decision about what to do or a date for decision, but it's clear that for us it's critical. i strongly believe because for us i belief that it's critical for you as well. i read into your article you, fareed and me, we have differences about it, but i think that you are ronning wrong, and i'm right about it.

that no new twally destruction will serve as a modifier or stabilizer in this case because we are now -- israel is not either the united states or this, and it's basically sanctions out there the only option by now, and the fact t t that. >> the report could not leave a doubt in the mind of any serious person that they will determine to reach nuclear military capability in spite of the determination of the rest of the world it can happen.

we feel it urgent. of course, we look at it slightly different from other nations, but we feel it's important to deal with it very seriously and not to remove any option from the table except for containment. those who believe in containment see a ray of hope. i don't believe in containment, so i don't feel how easily it's going to resolve, and i'll be happy to be wrong. >> mr. minister, there's a new book out in the united states called a crisis of zionism by peter binart, and in it he proposes that the west bank and gaza should be described not as the west bank and gaza, not jude aa, but as undemocratic israel. the argument being that you have millions of palestinians there who have no vote and no state. is that a fair characterization of the west bank as undemocratic

israel? >> i didn't read the book, so i cannot make a statement about, but it's clear the deeper reason to have these -- a solution of two states for two people is in order to make sure that israel -- within which we'll have a solely jewish majority for generations to come, and beyond which we will have a viable palestinian state with a palestinian majority that will express their identity, their dreams and their aspirations. i think that it's possible. it's that simple. it's possible. it needs goodwill for both sides and readiness to take tough decisions. if israel remains, the only political entity, western of the jordan river, the fact that there are blocks of millions of

palestinians and that cannot vote and it makes a problem, and if they can vote, it will make israel a state. it's clear to all of us israelis, including israelis, and that's what broke most of us, including the divide and to understand that the only solution is two stt-state solution, and that is -- the only issue we care about is that you, the execution of the meetings of these two states for solution, the kurt considerations of israel and it's not interested. we'll be taken into account. there are 20 odd states of arab nature. in the region and probably the only member of the u.n., which

is destroyed by other members of the u.n. that's a situation that needs to be taken care of by us. we realize we are living in a tough neighborhood. no mercy for the weak, and no second opportunity for those who cannot defend themselves. we want to be strong, ready to protect ourselves at other -- whatever kind of threat, but at the same time stretching out our hand to make peace with any neighbor who is ready for it. >> ehud barack, pleasure to have you on, sir. >> thank you. >> up next, we go from israel to another hotspot. pakistan. right back. [ male announcer ] citi turns 200 this year. so why exactly should that be of any interest to you?

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zimplt last week the united states put a $10 million bounty on this man's head. his name is hafah say media, the man washington blames for masterminding the 2008 attacks

in mumbai, india. imagine the surprise when he shows up openly at a press conference in pakistan and he had a message for the state department. why give the $10 million to someone else? why not give it to me, he said? it's a message of defiance that also highlights the state of relations between washington and islamabad, the capital of pakistan. i have two superb guests to talk about that relationship as well as another crumbling partnership across the border in afghanistan. amman rasheed is the author of a new book "pakistan on the brink" and in islamabad itself, we are joined by cnn's terror expert peter berger. welcome. emmitt, was it a mistake to have put that bounty on his head? what do you think was the thinking behind it? >> i fear now that, you know, both countries have been in this very tense relationship for the last six months. i fear now what we're seeing is a kind of tit for tat, a kind f of -- a kind of proxy war going

on now because pakistan did not open the road when the americans expected. that is the road that is transporting goods from car afternoony up to the afghan forces in afghanistan. that road has been shut now for nearly five months. pakistan was supposed to open that road after a parliamentary debate. it hasn't done so. i think this is an american response to that. a week ago we saw an earlier tit for tat when the chairman -- when the head of sentcomwas in islamabad, and that very day the defense department releases a statement saying that the americans were not responsible for the deaths of 24 pakistani soldiers on the border five months ago. you know, both sides are -- instead of coming together and really healing the rift, i fear they're going further apart. >> you wrote in a piece that it

really is time to start a serious conversations with the taliban and find some way to create some political stability. you know, this is something weave all talked about for two or three years, and somehow is it doesn't seem to -- nothing seems to move. is there any sense that there is movement on the u.s. side, the taliban side, karzai side? >> you know, i mean, talks have started. there have been direct meetings between american officials and the taliban in qatar. they have been sometimied for the moment because of all the terrible incidents in afghanistan, but it's very clear that the taliban do want to talk. we should remember, fareed, that it was the taliban that approached the americans for talks two years ago through the germans and through qatar, and they sent messages to the americans saying we want to talk. now, i really believe that the taliban do not want to see the americans leave and really even

worse civil war erupting in afghanistan as a result of that. >> so they are looking for some kind of a deal. >> they're looking for a deal with the u.s. so that there can be, first of all, i think, a reduction in the violence. in other words, that they want -- both sides will have to build trust with each other and take measures which will hopefully reduce the violence. ultimately, of course, ending in some kind of cease-fire, and then, you know, they would obviously want to talk to karzai about some kind of power sharing agreement with the afghan government, but i think the decision has to be made in washington that they want to pursue negotiations with greater determination than before. the military -- there will come a time when the military will have to play second fiddle to

the negotiations. >> do you get a sense that if there were to be some settlement, if the u.s. were to withdraw, does pakistan believe that the taliban are basically there -- is their path to influence in afghanistan that, you know, the last time around the taliban effectively came to power on the backs of the pakistani army. do they view the return of the taliban as something that they, the pakistani military, want to push for? >> i don't think there's any great desire by the pakistani government to have taliban control afghanistan. not at that time. there's been so much blowback into pakistan by, you know, taliban groups. i think they do want to have control and through the account being network in afghanistan, but that doesn't mean that they want the taliban controlled afghanistan at all, and, you know, the blows are hard on their western border to produce

huge refugee flows. pakistan has already lived through that with one of the largest refugee populations in the world during the soviet war. they don't want a repeat of that. i think they want a semi-stable government that isn't aligned with india. they see the taliban -- elements of the taliban as part of that. you know, just zooming outs for one second, fareed, i'm kept cal that negotiations with the taliban will succeed because we've already run a controlled experiment in pakistan repeaedly. the taliban government has done -- the taliban has done a peace deal for the pakistani government in 2006 and 2005 and waziristan, north and south and in 2009, and the taliban instantly took reap of those peace deals as an opportunity to regroup and to kind of spread their influence. i don't think that the taliban are sort of rationale actors. they're a group of henry kissingers in waiting with whom you can do a deal, but not necessarily stick as you indicated at the beginning of this discussion, you know, the -- whatever status they

were, they're not going very wrl. we don't have a huge amount of time before 2014, and i think it's much more tornt to be focused on the free and fair election in afghanistan in 2014. awe very predictable eth. if that election is not seen as free and fair and, you know, the resources -- that could be sort of an instigator of a greater conflict in afghanistan, and i think that the u.s. government has put this in as a binary thing. if we have a deal with the taliban, somehow that's solving the afghan problem. if we get to a much larger political problem, then to some degree, a free and fair election in 2014 might begin to solve. >> quick final thought, amed. >> there are going to be so many complications that are not necessarily being addressed by the administration or by nato. for example, not only is there a question of the taliban, but there's a question of a regional dialogue with the neighbors, and, in fact, that regional dialogue was even further away than before, because now the u.s. is at odds with pakistan. the u.s. is at odds with iran. these are key neighbors of afghanistan. how were you going to prevent

these countries from interfering in afghanistan after the americans leave in 2014. you have to try and get these countries together now. it doesn't look like this will happen. the internal dynamics, the elections in 2014, what role is the northern alliance are non-pash tuns going to play? these are all very important questions. finally, the economic question. there's no sustainable economy in afghanistan. even ten years after the american intervention. the american forces will leave. thousands of afghans who have been service says the americans will be out of a job. >> thank you for discussing the subject that isn't going to go away. up next, what in the world. understanding the problems in the arab world by exploring events that took place 1,000 years ago. don't miss this. ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 ttd#: 1-800-345-2550 let's talk about the cookie-cutter retirement advice

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zimplg as ae jipt's election campaign gathers pace, we see the rise of candidates from islamic parties. one more kadral than the next. across the arab world, the promise of the new birth of freedom has been followed by a much messier reality. it raises the question that why does it seem that democracy has such a hard time taking route root in the arab world.

as it happens, a har vrd economics professor eric channing recently presented a rigorous paper that helps unravel this knot. he asks why is there -- systematically tests various hypothesis against the data. he notes that such muslim majority countries like turkey, indonesia, albania, bangladesh, and malaysia all have functioning democratic systems, so the mere presence of islam or islamic culture can't be to blame. he looks at oil-rich states, and, again, finds that some with vast energy reserves like saudi arabia lack democracy, but so do some without oil, like syria. he asks whether arab culture is the culprit. this doesn't provide much clarity. he points out that many countries in the arab neighborhood seem to share in the democracy deficit. chad, iran, tajikistan, and, yet, they are not arab. then channing constructs a

persuasive hypothesis based in ancient history and modern economics. he notes that the democracy deficit today exists in lands that were conquered by arab armies after the death in 3632 a.d. of the prophet mohammed. lands that the arabs controlled in the 12th century remain economically stunted today. this correlation is very strong and is not simply a coincidence. ash control tended to mean weak civil society and a large role for the states, particularly in the economy. it shows that the government's share of gdp is 7% higher on average among countries that were conquered by arab armies than among those that were not. he also finds that these countries have fewer trade unions and less access to credit. features of a weak civil society. there are less medieval factors. it has long been apparent that the dictatorships of the middle

east perform close alliances with religious leaders to crowd out other leaders and groups. indonesia, for example, is a country with the world's largest muslim population and it has religious parties just as egypt does. it also has powerful groups that are less religious, more moderate, and entirely secular. all these groups compete for influence on an even footing, something that is not happening in egypt in the arab world. in a country like egypt it's that the military continues to keep power concentrated, undivided and unchecked. it maintains its central role in the economy. the chief challenge which means political parties, but it also means a strong self-sustaining private sector. the disfunctions in the arab world have ancient roots going back over 1,000 years, but it

does not mean that the region is impervious to change. history and the habits that engendered are democracy's biggest foesn in the arab world, but these are habits, and they can change. these are institutions and they can -- channing gives us a prescription for the very long-term, but it is at least a prescription for good change. we will be right back. up next, a special guest from a recent visit to london. an author who knows a lot about the history of debts and deficitses. costing drivers $67 billion a year, and countless tires. which drivers never actually check because they're busy, checking email. this is why we engineered a car that makes 2,000 decisions every second. the new audi a6 is here. the road is now an intelligent place. ♪ when bp made a commitment an ito the gulf,lace. we knew it would take time,

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i'm candy crowley in washington. fareed zakaria gps will be back in 90 seconds, but, first, a check of the top storieses. two men have been arrested in connection with a deadly series of shootings in oklahoma. three people were killed and two others unioned wounded in the attacks in tulsa friday. pope benedict xvi marked this easter sunday with his traditional papal message to the city of rome and the world. the pope condemned the persecution of christians around the world. a series of videos have surfaced on-line reported to show the highest ranking member of saddam hussein's regime to evade capture criticizing iraq's current leadership. he served as a military commander and vice president

under saddam. there have been several claims that he was either killed or captured. though a man claiming to be him has released a number of audio messages tainting iraqi and u.s. officials. there is a new deal over the way the u.s. military operates in afghanistan. the agreement is an effort to end the afghan anger over special operations night raids on local homes. from now on afghan commandos will take the lead in those raids. those are your top stories. now back to fareed zakaria, gps. we think of our current economic crisis as new because at its heart is the accumulation of too much debt. the battle between creditors and debtors is age-old. i had a very interesting discussion about this in london recently with phillip, the author of the economist buttonwood column, and he has a terrific new book out. paper promises, debt, money, and the new world order.

you look at the current crisis we have with regard to debtors and creditors, you know, all of the western world in debt, and you say this is actually not so unfamiliar. this is part of a much broader pattern. >> exactly. over history we've had periods when people have built up too much debt, and then we've had crisis when the debt has not been repaid, so classic one was the 1930s. in that crisis debtors have been overwhelmed by the cost of repaying debt, and then governments were forced to adjust the monetary system, drop off the gold standard, and loosen the straits of austerity that they had imposed. >> you go back much further than the 1930s. you point out that this pattern of societies accumulating too

much debt. >> we refer to the term jubilee. what is the actual judged? >> the idea of a jubilee is when all debts were forgiven. it's interesting. we've had these crisis about every 40 years. there was one in the 1970s when fixed exchange rates collapse and then the 1930s before that. maybe they had a good idea about how often you needed to do that. over history it's often been monarchs that have got into trouble with debt. it's monarchs that have struggled to pay her bills. they often debasing the currency. when you had gold and silver, they would add copper or lead to the coins so coins would go further. the roman emperors did it. medieval monarchs did it, and some people would say the creation of money to buy bonds is the same trick being tried all over again. >> so we have this idea that

sovereign debt is, in a sense, risk-free, and you point out that somebody who was told that in the 17th century or the 18th century would laugh. >> yeah. i mean, phillip ii, the king of spain, who had the spanish armada, he defaulted on his delts four times. the french, they're used to imprison or even execute their creditors. if you lend money to a sovereign, the sovereign can change the laws. look what's happening in greece today. greece is defaulting to its private sector creditors and not to the official creditors, other governments, in other words. members of their club. they can just change the rules if they like, and that's the big risk that's always occurred when lending to government, and this crisis is just the similar pattern happening all over again. >> so when you look at the current crisis, you say we have only the familiar options, right? what are the things you can do given the amount of debt we've run up? sfoo well, the nicest thing to get out of a debt crisis is to grow your economy, as we did after the second world war. the problem for europe in particular is that demography,

population stops you from doing that. in germany, poland, italy, working populations will be falling over the next 20 years. it's very hard to grow the economy in those circumstances. that leaves three nasty options. it is wrong or immoral for debtors not to be paid, and part of the argument is that it would create what economists call a moral hazard. that if we don't force deters to pay their debts this time, it creates the danger of another bubble.

>> when you have punitive towards the deter, another bubble formed. when are you generous towards the debtors, another bubble forms. >> yes. i mean, if you look back only 13 years ago russia was defaulting, and now russia is, you know, seen as one of the bricks, one of the great new economies, according to goldman sachs. greece is a sear ideal defaulter, but they could still borrow at a roughly similar rate to germany, so i'm afraid creditors don't learn. perhaps it's a different generation. you go 20 or 30 years, and there's a whole new set of creditors who believe in governments. only to be disappointeded all over again. >> this time around we'll face some crisis, and you say the power will move to the creditors, as it always does, who are? >> who are china. if you think back to the 19th century britain set up the terms of the gold standard. it was the dominant creditor nation. in the 20th century, it was america. now it's china. it has the money. and a system that china designs

will not look like the system we've had for the last 30, 40 years. china likes managed exchanged rates, not floating exchange rates. china likes capital controls. not the free flow of money across borders. in five, six years time this is not something that happens overnight, that's what the system will start to move towards, and if you look at what's happening in the world, you can see that the first phases of that process already are beginning to occur. >> fascinating conversation. pleasure. >> thank you, fareed. that was phillip in london. stay with us. we have another really important discussion up next. the winner of last year's nobel peace prize tells me about her personal mission to protect women from a bar barrack african tradition. i love that my daughter's part fish.

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i heard a speech recently that captured my attention. the speaker was a liberian woman named lama bowie. if the name sounds familiar, it should. she was one of the recipients of the 2011 nobel peace prize. the prize was awarded to three women for their nonviolent struggle for the safety of women and women's rights. in africa that means everything from ending child marriage to forcing gender equality, from electing more female public

officials, so stopping female genital mutilation. fgm, that is the bar baric ritualistic practice of cutting women's genitals and for leyma this is a rather personal crusade. listen to her discuss whether she wants american help in her struggle. at a time when the u.s. is grappling with how strongly it should push certain issues abroad, women's rights in afghanistan, gay rights in africa, hers is an interesting perspective from someone passionate about human rights, but aware of the culture she comes from. >> i grew up in a area where almost all of my female family members went through the process of the fgm. >> explain all this. >> the secret society where women go to go through the whole process of socialization and then at the end you have to go through the female genital mutilation. we're five daughters. think dataed was the one who put his foot down to say not a

single one of them would go through this practice. >> do you think that some of those cultural traditions, are those changing so that if a young woman today, you know, does it take a man of your father's will power to stop that, or is it becoming more acceptable for women to say, look, i -- this shouldn't happen? >> i think it's a conversation that has started, and by virtue of the fact that the conversation is now on the table, it means it's changing. you know, it's not -- it's not overt. it's want going to happen overnight, but that women can now sit and say we had a choice to either do this or to not do it. whether they're running away or whether -- the conversation is now on, and in some villages people are now saying to some of the traditional women that don't you think we need to redefine why we do this? don't you think we need to also redefine the process of doing this, because going into the

secret school, there are some very good things about it, according to my mother, but then when it comes to that aspect, the health, implications, and all of those things, some people are saying can we just look at the good side of taking our girls through the traditional schooling and just leave out this one, so it is a conversation that is ongoing, but like i said, by virtue of the fact that it's open, it's out there, ten, 15, 20 years ago it was a tabu. you could not talk about it in my house because the first thing -- they asked what do you know about it. it was always hush, hush, hush, hush. even when people went, no one talk about it. >> do you think it's useful for the united states to lay down markers? hirlg hillary rodham clinton has spoken of it. should americans be more forceful about this issue? >> i think the whole advocate should be left with people who understand the cultural context because sometimes what outside voices do to this process is it makes it more -- i mean, really

contentious. you know, i think if the conversation, it's good to have allies outside that you can rely on, lie on, lie on -- [ technical difficulties ] >> not puppets of the west. >> what you do, which i assume is what got you the nobel paez past prize, is you mobilized people, particularly women, in liberia to end charles's bloody long rule. you were 17 years old when the liberian civil war began, right? >> yes. >> it went on for -- >> 14 years. >> yeah. >> so what was your life like in that period? >> well, from 17 to 31 i had gone through many different things. first, you see yourself as a victim. until probably the age of 26 i

was constantly in this mindset of a victim. someone would come and rescue us as liberians. god is going to change this situation, but gradually as i got older, got involved in peace work, i realized that, huh-uh, this is not going to be the case. we have to solve this mess ourselves. fortunately, i was at a place where i had now joined a community of women who understood that there would be no rescuing from any superman or from any kingdom. we have to do it ourselves, and that's how we step in. it wasn't a pretty life. it wasn't a pretty life. >> pleasure to have you on. >> thank you, fareed. >> we will be back. we always hear about jobs leaving america. here's a chance to create jobs in america. oil sands projects, like kearl, and the keystone pipeline will provide secure and reliable energy to the united states. over the coming years, projects like these could create more than half a million jobs in the us alone.

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all the way to timbuktu, who hasn't said that phrase as a way to describe how amazingly far away something is? timbuktu was actually in the news this week, and it brings me to our question this week from the gps challenge. we know tim buick tu is far away, but where is it exactly? which nation would you find timbuktu? is it, a, mali, b, the maldi

southeast, somalia, or nepal. stay tuned, and we'll tell you the correct answer. go to cnn/fareed for more of the gps challenge and lots of insight and analysis. you can also follow us on twitter and facebook. remember, if you miss a show, go to itunes. you can get the audio podcast for free or you can buy the video version. go directly there by typing itunes.com/fareed into your browser. this week's book of the week is break out nations, one of the world's leading emerging market investors. this is the best book on global economic trends i have read in a while. he says that the bricks, brazil, india, china, russia, those golden growing nations, are slowing down. read the book. now for the last look. what caught my eye this week was an art installation by the chinese artist and dissident aiwa wa. he put surveillance cameras up if his house in beijing. four of them in all.

earlier this week he began streaming them live on a website called wai wai cam. this was a pro'tis against another form of surveillance. this one by the chinese government. the police cameras trained on his house. the frequent searches he says he is forced to endure. the monitoring of his home and computer. in a move that may not surprise you, four days later the chinese government told him to take down the website. the government's own surveillance cameras are, of course, still up. the correct answer to our gps challenge question was, a, if you were to go all the way to timbuktu, you would be going to the center of the west african nation of mali. it was once a wealthy center of scholarship on the for end of trade routes, hence, its reputation, and today in mali's current crisis, it has become a rebel -- we learned this week that the show h