we'll see you one hour from now. thursday we hope you'll watch the 360 google plus hangout. you'll get a question from us on our google page. >> more on that sensational development in a moment. the big story, north carolina voters are considering a constitutional ban. we'll discuss that with him a little later. also a man with very strong opinions and things got pretty heateded with jonah goldberg. >> i think standing on a soapbox and waxing poetic about how much i think this operation cost is cheap. >> setting aside the cliched --

i'm not saying you're wrong, but i'm saying when it comes to cheap ideology, chucking out statements that $50 million is cheap. >> i didn't throw it out, you pried it out of me, you begged me for an answer. >> we loved that so much, we decided to have number two. take a look another this latest rant of president obama which i call the abcs of "snl." >> this whole thing with obama saying the rich don't pay nair taxes [ bleep ] and i voted for the guy and i'm a democrat. what else? >> no holds barred interview, hopefully in will be something in between the beeps tonight.

a fat epidemic to end all epidemics is striking the nation. and a foiled plot against a u.s. airliner. the would be suicide bomber was actually a double agent working with the cia and al qaeda -- a dramatic twist in this story, it was already a huge success for the cia, now we find out this guy, the suicide bomber, would be suicide bomber was working with the cia. >> that's right, this was a big intelligence success. it's not easy to get a double agent like this into a group like al qaeda and the arabian peninsula. this is a great -- which is very harrah tornado about being penetrated, especially by the saudis. they penetrated the group before. so it would have been very difficult for the saudis and cia

who prepares to pull this off. >> here's a big question i was thinking, was this guy a sleeper put into al qaeda in the yemen by the cia or was it another twist? >> it's not clear at this point, we just don't know those details yet. but to get into a group like al qaeda in the arabian peninsula, this guy would have had to walk and talk like a suicide bomber, someone they would give this device to. so it's possible that this individual had some connections to radical networks, someone to vouch for him so that he could gain industry to the group. >> it's a massive coup for president obama, another big victory in the war on terror. >> sure. >> two things, i guess, one the more sophisticated bomb they were working on, but secondly, this whole notion, potentially

of having sleepers, agents inside al qaeda? >> will, first i these you look at it, yemen has become the hot new battleground in the war on terror. the cia is executing it's drone program there. i put on my skeptical tinfoil hat here, and say wait a second, all this information is coming from anonymous intelligence officials, we don't know the full story yet, was this someone who infiltrated and came up with the plot, was it more of an entrapment situation, or was it something that he intercepted what was already happening. and for obama, why are they making all these details public in this way? we don't quite know the answer to that, but i'm going to put on my skeptical hat and say, also

with these intelligence things will evolve very rapidly over the next few days. >> this was apparently planned to coincide with the anniversary of the death of osama bin laden and it clearly backfired and it has become a victory for the cia and america, why wouldn't they revul all the details? >> there's a limit to their success. and it's possible that they were trying to get this agent into the group to go off to the chief bombmaker, in past plots, it was possible they were trying to get this agency to try and track al-asiri 's movements. they were able to take out a senior operational planner in the group, but they were not able to take out this very dangerous bombmaker who's

ingenious at making bombs. >> tell me about the device ooilts. it w -- >> we're learning details slowly about what the device was, but it seems to be some sort of underwear type of a device which they were trying to get eventually on to an airliner going into the united states. you obviously saw that before on christmas day 2009 with the ni gearian recruitle, that was a vy close call. the detonator worked. it was just the main charge, a substance called petn that didn't detonate, and the reason that that probably didn't detonate was that this underwear he had been wearing for three weeks. by ibrahim is someone who has learned from his mistakes, he's

grown more sophisticated so the concern is he's still out there and he's making more and more sophisticated bombs. let me ask you a broader question, the tornado of al qaeda is that it's not really one entity. it can be a number of terrorist groups that operate under that mantle in totally different ways. what would you say is going on inside al qaeda as an organization? >> i would guess they're going crazy. the mastermind bombmaker must have found out that his cover had been blown. i would say they're panicking, they're shutting down all their communications which is sort of how they would talk to each other and basically trying to go under ground. they just lost the guy who we killed on sunday was one of the

people involved in the u.s.s. cole attack back in 2000. >> but could it be more dangerous for america in the short-term, in the sense that there's no head, if there's no group running the al qaeda show then is there more dangerous for splinter groups that we have no know on the run. you can penetrate a network. how do you stop the one guy that has his own crazy idea. >> look at the week they're having. we had the anniversary of bin laden. a huge -- the biggest success that we have had in the war on terror. and then you have this case that they have, you know, caught this other bomber that was trying to attack the united states, so the fbi officials say. >> thank you both for now. now we're going to turn to

our big story, the gay marriage battle. north carolina has voted tonight on a referendum to ban same-sex marriage. president of the family research council is opposed to gay marriage. why are you so opposed to two loving people getting married. >> it's not just me, but north carolina, it looks like 60% of the voters there are poised to adopt the state amendment, that will make 30 states that have adopted amendments that preserve the state of of marriage as between one man and one woman. >> if you look at heterosexual marriage, look at kim kardashian's marriage, which lasted 72 hours? when you look at marriage that lasts that long, clearly the respect for the sanctity of marriage is absurd. then you have a gay couple who's

been together 20 years, who love each other, who actually really want to get married and who want to observe and respect the sanctity of marriage, is it. >> you treat it as a celebrity bag extension? >> you know, pierce i think that's a really good question and i a lot of people ask that question of themselves. quite frankly marriage among heterosexuals has not been good, when we see the divorce rate around 50 percent. my beginnings as an elected official, i have been working on marriage law for over 15 years. and the reason it's important, pierce, quite frankly is because public policy shapes the culture. and when we're -- what we're talking about here is not shaping policy or creating policy based upon an individual here or an individual there, but what the social science tells us

is best for society as a whole. and it's very clear that children -- >> let me ask you about the social science aspect. >> uh-huh. >> how much more damage can a gay couple do if they're married to the damage they can do to civilization if they're unmarried? >> yeah, again, piers you're asking great questions because those are the questions that are going through people's minds. >> i'm asking you because you're so opposed to it. answer the question. rather than telling me how great all my questions are, answer some of them. >> i am if you'll give me just a second. we have got 40 years of social science research based on public policy change. no fault divorce was a public policy adoption, what that created was a spike in the 1980s. then we had cohabitation.

we can't tinker with the definition of marriage and say -- it's going to -- >> do you have -- >> answer the question though, just to press you on the question. what more damage could a gay couple do to civilization -- >> it's the policy. >> if they're just live together. >> further redefining marriage, the reason we have cohabitation at skyrocketing rates is because we have redefine marriage in a way through no fault divorce making it meaningless to many, to the step of redefining it completely. if you're two people and you love each other, that's all that counts. the reason that society has recognized marriage with certain benefits is because the marriage of a man and a woman that creates children and benefits children, that's -- >> you have five kids, right.

>> yes, i do. >> what would you do if one of them came home and said, dad, i'm gay. >> well, we would have a conversation about it. i doubt that would happen with my children as we are teaching them the right ways that they are to interact as human beings, we're not allowing them to be indoctrinated by the education system. >> so just to clarify, you would imagine it would be a personal choice they would suddenly make, they would wake up one day and decide they were going to be gay. >> no, i didn't say that. i think it's -- i would 67bd say -- >> you implied it because you said that they have been brought up in a way that it was unlikely they would be gay. my argument to you as somebody who supports gay marriage, is being gay is not a choice. being gay is not something you suddenly wake up and decide to be. so one of your children could be gay. it's not a question of the way you brought them up. it's a fact. >> yes, it is, it is

environment, piers. i would agree with you that i don't believe most people choose to be homosexual as being gay or whatever you want to call it. i don't believe that's a choice they wake up one morning and make. i don't think it's genetic, i don't think the evidence is there to support that. i do think it's a product of a happening or environment or things that they are exposed to. i don't think it's a choice. i don't think somebody wakes up and says i want to be this way. i think in most cases it's the result of the environment. >> okay, tony perkins, we will agree to disagree. thank you so much. >> all right, piers, good to be with you. coming up next, talking about agreeing to disagree. i will welcome back jonah goldberg. are you ready for round two, jonah? >> i'm struggling to contain my excitement.

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breaking news tonight as cnn projects that north carolina -- the other big story, the return of jonah goldberg is the author of "the tieriney of cliches. welcome back, jonah. >> thanks for having me. >> i fear we got off on the wrong foot, we went off on a little bit of a tangent about the story of the day, the -- i have done the gallant, very british thing of inviting you back and we can have round two, predominantly talking about the book this time. >> invited, implored, these are

distinctions with a different, but i'm delighted to be back. >> this is the thing i find quite ironic, i think. after our last exchange, there was an assumption made i think by you and then by your army of supporters online, which becomes like a kind of -- like a new invading twitter, facebook online roman army, i was this screaming wet liberal who had been becam became zeifying the . because i'm not a screaming wet liberal. i just lap to disagree with you on that particular story. now here's where i'm spin back the premise of your book.

it -- >> i'm glad you brought this up, because the one question you asked me on the last show about my book, i gave you the answer, liberals and conservatives are it logical. lib rams don't even admit to it themselves and we went on to falk about the bin laden ad. you seem to be carrying more water for obama than -- you seem to be proving the very point they had made at the beginning of the show. i think it ties into your book. you had dan rather on, you had david axelrod. and the way you interviewed them, it seems to me, again from my cliched conservative

perspective. it seemed the way you interviewed them was far less prosecute torl, you didn't question -- >> jonah, listen, i'll put up with this to a certain degree. let's just get it in perspective. i have interviewed far more republican politician this is year than i have democrat. far more. i somewhere interviewed rick santorum maybe a dozen time. newt gingrich six or seven time. ron paul, mitt romney, none of who have a liberal bias to them. i can't vote nymph. i don't have a horse in the race. what i was reacting to was the fact that you came after the tierny of cliches of how liberals cheat. if you raid the book, you say, look, republicans do it too.

>> bringing up this commercial with bill clinton and i happen to believe quite strongly, not from a left or right perspective or a screaming fascist or liberal rue. >> here's the thing, i agreed with you. more than once on this point. but you seem to want to put me in a box, saying somehow i was arguing and had no right to do it. the obama ad treated the question of mitt romney. and what i tried to convey to you more than once was that you were quoting mitt romney out of context.

you don't he said of course you take your chance -- you didn't even mention the mitt romney part in your ad, and you tried to bully me arguing that -- barack obama didn't have a right to gloat about it. i would tell him go ahead and campaign on this. it's a very impressive thing. >> you must be the least bulliable person ever created. >> i said you tried to bully me, i didn't say you bullied me. you ask me these faith filled question on false premises and you wanted to watch the actual video.

>> let's move on to today's issue, because funny enough, here again -- if we only met tonight, and this was the first interview we had done and we were talking about the raging issue of today, which i would argue is this issue of gay marriage, i suspect we would have a lot more in common about this issue than people would expect. but secondly i would be very critical of barack obama. i would say it's simply not acceptable to be president of the united states and to pretend that you are wholeheartedly behind gay rights but not to endorse gay marriage the way the president has. i think he needs to work out this before it damages his reputation further on this. >> i have never once called you a screaming liberal. i just said you proved the point that i gave you at the beginning

of that interview. you said i don't believe in ideology, i'm not partisan, then you kept carrying water for the obama perspective that struck a lot of people as unfair -- i never called you a screaming liberal, never called you a fascist, never done any of those things. >> let's talk about the gay marriage issue, because you have got an interesting perspective on this. tell me exactly what your personal view is of gay marriage. >> well, you know, my position is actually a lot like barack obama's except i'm not lying about it. my position is evolving. i was for civil unions when it was a pretty controversial position for a politician to have. not that there was a dire threat to western civilization if gays are allowed to marry. then again i don't consider opposition to gay marriage to be some wholly bigoted and

outrageous position to v leave it to the states of california, the people of california wanted to vote to legalize gay marriage, it would be absolutely fine with me. the people of north carolina would want to vote to not have it. that would be fine with me too. >> this is where i think you're quite a contradict try figure, again reading the book, you constantly come back to the fact that the problem with liberals is they don't have an ideology, they talk in cliches, they talk in sound bites, none of it really means anything. when i ask you about your issue of the day, you don't have an ideology do you, you're happy for whatever happens to take its course. but that's not ideology. if i was a liberal responding to t that was essential to your block, i would say, okay, jonah, where is your ideology of gay marriage. >> i think with -- i don't

consider ideology to be this hide bound doiyour dogma, are y limiting government, or expanding go. all this prichbs approximately about -- on this one of my key principles and i have written piles on this, the values and importance of federalism. push all of these issues to the lowest democratic level possible. let people live, the way they want to live in their own communities. i'm a tenth amendment guy. at the same time, just because i have an ideology, i'm a proud conservative, doesn't mean i have to have a lock step position on every single question. i think homosexuals are people. i think they have a right to sort of pursue happiness. a lot of the times the way we talk about gay marriage, we get it wrong.

the argument of gay marriage is really the argument about whether or not the state is going to treat these unions as if they're the same as heterosexual marriage. it's a complicated question, at the end of the day, we're going to get around to gay marriage, and it will not be the end of the world. but burke is one of your guys, i think a lot of things take time. >> jonah, we have to take a little bit of time out here, we're going to come back after the break and talk about the book. i want to talk about jfk's quote, nothing to fear but fear itself. >> that was fdr. >> fdr not jfk. jfk is coming too, i've got them all ready for you.

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candidate mitt romney blasting president obama. back with me now is jonah goldberg. what really compelled you to write this book?

>> i'll defend your right to say it. betteren the guilty men go free than one innocent man go to jail. as you look at the -- >> what is wrong with those two -- what is wrong with those two statements? >> in terms of better ten guilty men go free, if you look at it as an it logical statement. the principle is that society should err on the side of the accused. it's not an interesting observation. >> everybody doesn't agree with it though. that's where you're wrong. if everyone agreed with that there wouldn't be the death penalty because now we know from endless dna tests that many people that were executed in america turned out to be innocent. >> i'm not aware of a single

inept person ever being executed. a lot of innocent people have been on death row. i don't want to kill innocent people either. i don't know anyone who's against the reasonable doubt status in a court of law. >> on to the point now, i can't remember the latest figures of the number of figures on death row. you have to assume, i think it's like 19 or 20, at least who have been on death row. but you take that as a premise. you have to assume that people have been executed in america, surely, who have not committed the crime. law of averages suggests that. my point is, if as you say, everybody agrees that one innocent person, the ten guilty people theory, you wouldn't have the death penalty. and yet you have still got states in america that still have it. >> if you have a standard that you can never have error ever.

the expression would be better 7 million people go free than one innocent be punished. if the stand card was that caution has to be an absolute principal. the guardrails on the highway would be 100 feet high and the speed limit would be five miles an hour. >> here's the thing, by the way, it's a very entertaining book and it's very well researched and you have a great sense of history and applaud you for this. under normal circumstances, we would get along absolutely fine. in terms of the details, in terms of the cliches you illustrate, the sort of more difficult point is that in modern politics you don't have the time you used to make a well constructed speech. we are now living in a sound

bite generation, you and i tweet at each other and we thoroughly enjoy it. you have to get a message over in 140 characters. and isn't that by definition the new society we're in, doesn't the -- doesn't that inevitably lead to a more cliche ridden game. >> it's the nature of politics, even before twitter, there were bumper stickers and all the rest. and that's the nature of the beast. but a lot of these cliches, you go back to or well. some of these arguments come as he calls it as prefab in houses, that people sort of just accept things that we all know are true, which in fact are not true. so the idea is like social darwinism and social justice, and these phrases that are thrown around, people think they know what they mean. who's against social justice, it's social and it's justice, it's kind of a trojan horse for

a whole slew of outright socialist ideas. >> but to sum up, republicans are as bad as this as democrats. >> republicans can be just as bad, at least the republicans or conservatives will admit where they're coming from. we know that conservatives have this world view. liberals will leave you out of it. they say they don't care about ideology, i only know what works. if you think barack obama doesn't have an ideology, you're mistaken. >> i enjoy our little bouts. >> i don't know if i can, but if i can, i will. a saturday nightlife star is taking on the president of the united states. why he is blazing angry got president obama. [ pilot ] flying teaches me to prepare for turbulence.

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i got on a jet and i flew to switzerland, with my wife more began fairchild, who i slept with. we were going to hide -- deposit the money when my plane crashed in the himalayas. and to stay alive, we ate the survivors because the dead ones were rotten. >> "saturday night live" john lovett is the pathological liar but now he has some surprising comments about president obama.

it's quite different to be called a pathological liar? can i assume what you're about too tell me is out of character? >> yes. yes. >> as ironic about that character is that i hate lying and so i hate -- you know, i was actually making fun of people who lie. and, you know, what happened was i have a comedy love that called jon lovitz comedy club and we do standup shows and podcasts, and kevin smith, the director, he has a whole podcast network. i do that and there's another one, toad hop network, i do one with lovitz -- >> are you trying to win the contest for the most plugs? >> that's the context of it and in a podcast, the whole thing is about being just totally honest and being yourself, so i'm onstage in a comedy club.

>> let's watch the obama clip. because i want to put it into the right context. let's see this. >> this whole thing with obama saying the rich don't pay their taxes is [ bleep ] and i voted for the guy and i'm a democrat, what a [ bleep ] the rich don't pay their taxes, let me tell you something, right? first they say you're dead broke, the united states of america, you can do anything you want, go for it. so then you go for it and then you make it and then there's like [ bleep ] you. >> you're pretty strong worded, i understand that you're in a podcast and it's all in fun. >> it's a comedy club, there's no language restrictions. >> but without the bad language, did you -- why do you emphasize this tax issue? >> i believed in him, i agreed with everything he was saying when he ran for president, i was listening to what he said, i thought this guy thinks like me

and i agree with him. now he's changing thing. i should have said people who don't pay their fair share of taxes. the reality is the irs, 2011 tax bracket, if you make $388,000 or more a year, you pay 35%. first he said, well, it's the 15% on capital gains, then he stopped saying that, all he keeps saying is that millionaires and billionaires don't pay their fair share of taxes. >> it's the warren buffett argument, where warren buffett pays a lower tax rate. >> warren buffett is paying 15% on capital gains, meaning money he already earned money on as income, now he's been investing it forever, and on that capital gains tax he gets 15%. it should be 340. >> why shouldn't the 1% in times

of economic crisis for america. why not some people who have been thrown out of jobs. >> i don't agree with that? >> really? >> you don't think people that ran wall street are responsible for a lot of the economic meltdown in this country had to suffer? >> maybe some of it, but not all of it, maybe some people they got housing loans, i think they're responsible for taking a loan they didn't qualify for? >> who is more responsible, the very, very smart people who know exactly what they are offering or the people who are perhaps not so smart, not so well versed in the property department get seduced into accepts one of these and then lose everything. >> you're saying if you're being conned into a loan. >> i'm not saying they conned them. they knew a hell of a lot more about what they were doing than a lot of people who were

receiving it. the people who lost their homes in this huge crisis should never have been allowed to have these gigantic loans. >> i think it's the people's fault for taking them and the bank's fault for giving them. >> if you're going to take the argument -- let me talk about the 1% are the people that ran wall street. the very point of this argument is shouldn't they be giving a bit back now, instead of going back to bankers with million dollar bonuses, sometimes $10 million bonuses, being bailed out by the taxpayers, shouldn't they have a paying back process? and what about the superrich paying a little bit more? >> he's saying their not paying their fair share of taxes. and if you talk to people, what's wrong with paying 1%

more, i said nothing, but you said they're only 1% off, and the reason capital gains tax is 15%, used to be 30%. they realize that 15% they'll invest more money and it creates more taxes. >> hold on a second, we're going to come back after the break. >> let me answer your questions, for god's sake, man. >> there's more meat on this bone. >> are you trying to impersonate me? >> i'm not trying, i'm succeeding. [ pilot ] flying teaches me to prepare for turbulence.

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back with my guest, jon lovitz. during the break, you said let me answer the question in the right way. what do you want to say about this whole 1% thing that i haven't -- >> first of all, this whole idea of this 1% versus the 99%, it's a false static. nobody is wealthy saying let's go get the people that aren't. he's creating a false class warfare. and anybody can going from being broke to being wealthy. as i did, although i grew up very nice. but after college my father said you're on you own. so i was dead broke for years. so i know what it's -- i lived on $600 for six years, i know what it's like to be dead broke. i feel bad for people who are struggling now. but it's not the fault of the 1%. it's the economy's fault, it's bad for everybody. i opened up a comedy club in a horrible economy and we created jobs and we started to break

even, barely. i have had to pay the difference of what we owe in rent and taxes and everything. out of my own pocket. so it's just not true. instead of divide and conquer to say the 99% -- to get votes, you know, it's like let's all work together. i don't have a problem because if you pay 1% more it will help everybody, fine. but don't tell me i'm not paying my fair share, when between the taxes, you have legal deductions. do you think anybody is getting own the irs? it's baloney. >> how many think like you do? >> a lot more than you. this 1% they don't understand us. obama is in the 1%. he made $4.3 million the year he was elected. he said $300,000, that's enough

to mee for everybody to make. is he putting a cap on success now? is he giving back $100,000. when he leaves the office he'll make millions. >> when the country is in $13 trilli $13 trillion. >> it's almost $16 trillion. >> it's rocketing all the time. >> it's going up up up. >> when a country has that level of debt t money has to come from somewhere. it can't come from the 8% of unemployed in america. many of whom have lost their home. >> correct. >> why shouldn't more omoney come than was coming before from the super rich, from the 1%? why shouldn't they? >> yeah, but i didn't argue that point. i said you want to raise it -- >> like we have to help here. those who have got more help a little bit more than those who've got nothing. >> that's fine, but that's not he's phrasing it. everybody is sayinger a terrifi? >> would he say that? >> well, he's putting everything on the defensive.

>> i want to play for you quickly -- >> everybody in england has the same problem. >> here's the impression of me on "snl." >> all right, then. >> not the words i say. you think i'm quite intelligent. the trayvon martin continues to rock the state of florida and i continue to cover the case by talking to lesser officials. >> he doesn't look anything like me and he sounds less like me. >> who's the actor in the sherlock holmes, the last one. he comes out. he's very tall. he looks like a caricature of you. do you know who i mean? colin somebody. >> colin firth. >> no, not colin firth. nice try. and i look like clark gable. >> i have to leave it there. >> you won't let me answer the question. >> you'll come back. >> i'm saying we should work together and not set people against each other. >> you answered it for so long, that we have no time for any

other questions. come back again soon. >> thank you. >> jon lovitz he's as mad as hell. coming up, "only in america" takes on the obesity epidemic and a sure-fire way to stop it. my plan for eliminating obesity. . i'm just going to let the people have a choice. $1.00 for popcorn. come and get it. guess we'll make it two. you got it. progressive showed me my options, i'm showing you yours. $1.00, fresh popcorn. enjoy the show. you should have an option, just like with car insurance. that is a really great price. in that time there've been some good days. and some difficult ones. but, through it all, we've persevered, supporting some of the biggest ideas in modern history. so why should our anniversary matter to you? because for 200 years, we've been helping ideas move

from ambition to achievement. and the next great idea could be yours. ♪ the world needs more energy. where's it going to come from? ♪ that's why right here, in australia, chevron is building one of the biggest natural gas projects in the world. enough power for a city the size of singapore for 50 years. what's it going to do to the planet? natural gas is the cleanest conventional fuel there is. we've got to be smart about this. it's a smart way to go. ♪

for tonight's "only in america" red, white and way overweight. if lady liberty was given a 21st century makeover she'd be holding a box of doughnuts instead of a torch. let's face it, america is bursting at the sceeams with a t

epidemic that will only get worse. the figures could balloon to 42%. imagine that, 150 million americans obese and at risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, the rest goes on. it's not just the calories, but the cost. nearly $200 billion in health care goes on the fight against fat. the fact is it's clear as a grease on a plate of fries. fast food, super sized portions, all this sugar, all that butter. we all know it. everyone has advice. talk to parents, talk to teacher, he's have town hall meetings the usual baloney that usually ends with a dash to the buffet line. i have some advice, you ready? eat less, exercise more. there you