only in america can a boy like andy get an opportunity to compete in the u.s. open and live out his dream. i wish him all the very best. as a golfer myself, a little advice. remember, keep your head down, your hands low. oh, and remember this. drive for show, you putt for dough. that's all for us tonight. "ac360" starts now. we begin tonight keeping them honest with a troubling new indication of just how hard american families have been slammed by the economy. a new study just released by the federal reserve paints a grim picture in numbers. the most stunning revelation in the study is between 2007 and 2010 the average american family's net worth dropped by almost 40%. our focus tonight is how that fact has been portrayed today in the presidential race. mitt romney was asked about the study. particularly the drop in americans' median net worth. here's what he had to say. >> well, i knew that's why the american people are having such a hard time. that's why the idea of selecting as a campaign slogan forward is

so absurd. people are having hard times in this country. the president needs to go out and talk to people. not just do fundraisers. go out and talk to people in the country and find out what's happening. >> mitt romney seems to be placing the blame on president obama. there's no doubt that that 40% drop in median net worth in three years is terrible. but what's lost in the comments is the fact the three years we're talking about, the three years the federal reserve study looked at are from 2007 to 2010. president obama didn't take office until 2009. so president obama and his supporters say you can't simply blame him. you have to look at the situation he inherited. you can agree with that or disagree. but in case you think i'm siding with president obama here in this tat for tat, let me also point out president obama seems guilty of similar attacks on recent attacks on mitt romney. in a new campaign ad he zings governor romney for some bad ads -- economic stats in massachusetts. some of which could also be blamed on, you guess it, the economic situation he was handed when romney took office.

keeping them both honest on both sides, here's tom foreman. >> let's look at those numbers. that really is the key to all this. if you ignored who the candidates were, here's the 2010 figure, $77,300 according to that study of the median family worth and by comparison to what was before in 2007 under george bush, $126,400. if you just look at those two numbers, this looks huge. it looks obviously like things were much better here than here. but the key is you have to go beyond that and you have to look at what's happening beyond it which is the question of this. what were we losing money on? the simple truth is we lost money on our jobs because a lot of people weren't making the money they expected to make. we lost money on our savings because people weren't expecting that either. but the big loser is over here in the question of savings. or in the question of homeownership. right there. that's where the big, big, precipitous fall came in terms

of what people were owning and where they lost all of their family value. and look at this chart when that happened. if you look at u.s. home prices, the number one driving force in changing that change in value, of net value, median home value, happened right in here. president obama didn't take office until about here, so you can see this gigantic climb in home values, huge fall off the cliff. he wasn't in office until here. so you're absolutely right to suggest that somehow it's his policies that lead the way to all of this is simply not true. the numbers say that's not the case. >> and mitt romney is certainly saying also president obama hasn't done enough to help get home prices back up, get people out of the water not fast enough. we mentioned in this intro a second ago the obama campaign is now going after governor romney's massachusetts record using kind of the same criteria they're crying foul against. no? >> absolutely. you're right. republicans have a fair complaint to say that maybe the

president should have stopped this sooner, he should have turned it around sooner. he should be doing more now. that's an absolutely valid complaint. but on the other side, the democrats are now coming back at the republicans with the same tactics. they're saying president -- romney, the figure they love to cite over and over again, that he created fewer jobs when he was governor than any other governor in the country. they're right but what they're not bearing in mind, when he was in office from here to here, it's a 1% gain. what they're not counting is the nature of the economy in the massachusetts. massachusetts was also hit by huge recession right before he took office, one that hammered technology companies and massachusetts has a lot of them. so the simple truth is both sides are using the same trick on each other. there may be more or less blame either way, but it's the same trick and it's equally unfair on both sides. >> tom, appreciate that. join meganow to get into the raw

politics, romney adviser kevin madden. would someone who heard the answer he gave this morning be able to tell that? >> well, i think that the governor is talking more about the divide right now between the president's posture on the economy, some of the rhetoric that he's using. and the real -- the perceptions i think and the realities that americans are feeling every single day in this economy. the president has talked about that we're making progress and that the private sector is doing fine, but people are feeling very real anxieties about everything like tom said about housing prices and the amount of savings that they have as well as the rising costs that they're seeing. whether it's at the gas pump or whether it's for food prices or everything from health care costs to energy costs to education costs, higher education costs. all of those are rising right now. and that the president's

policies now haven't done enough to get us out of the economic doldrums we've seen over the last four years. and that's the reason we're having this election, we're putting a contest right now of our vision for the future and how to fix the economy against president obama's and his policy and record over the last 3 1/2 years. >> just for the record gas prices have been falling. >> they're still very high. they're still very high. >> the obama campaign, cornell, saying people should look at the upward trend of job creation under obama. if that's true, shouldn't they be doing the same thing about romney in massachusetts? >> i think when we judge mitt romney's record in massachusetts, have you to look at what he did in massachusetts. the same sort of policies that he put in place in massachusetts are the same sort of policies talking about putting in place right now which is doubling down giving massive tax breaks to -- over the last 16 months we've had positive job growth in the

private sector. for the last 16 months we've lost jobs of teachers and first responders and firemen. those are middle-class jobs that count also. tactics aside, it's about the policies that mitt romney would implement if he were president, the same sort of policies of giving breaks to the wealthy. while struggling middle-class families get the short shaft and get higher fees. >> kevin, let me ask you about something that cornell referenced. the obama campaign has jumped on those comments that mitt romney made, saying that he wants to, according to the obama campaign, fire police, firefighters and teachers to cut government even smaller. romney's team is saying romney was taken out of context. i just want to play what exactly he said. >> he says we need more firemen, more policemen, more teachers. did he not get the message in wisconsin? the american people did. it's time for us to cut back on government and help the american people. >> isn't the implication there we don't need more firemen, police or teachers and to cut government that's where you would fire? >> no. the implication is that we have

very different world views on how we help spur economic growth. governor romney has made very clear what we need to do is put more faith in the american people. allow businesses big and small to grow. >> he's saying cut government. he's citing teachers, firemen and police. >> what president obama wants to do is help spur the economic growth by putting federal taxpayer dollars into growing the size of government and hiring more government workers. the problem here in order to get the local tax base -- that's the other thing you've got to remember. localities, local city governments and states, they're the ones that hire first responders. they're the ones that are primarily responsible for education funding. so what happens is we're not going to have a federal government write a check. what happens when that money is gone? if you have a one time hit, what happens when you don't have a local economic growth? if you don't have a growth in the local economic base, you

can't sustain teachers, firemen and police officers. so what you have to do is grow the economic base. >> it sounded like romney is saying we don't need more teachers, firemen or policemen and we've got to cut government. is he saying to fire some? >> no. no. i think he's saying that when we're looking at growing the economy, the most important thing to do is grow the private sector. because when you have a very robust private sector, then you can sustain the jobs of firemen, teachers and police men. look, that's an important point that governor walker even made. >> cornell, is that what you think romney was saying? >> i think what you see is two very different visions. in all do respect to the other side on this. you see one vision where president obama is saying you know what? we've got to invest in those things that sort of help empower the middle class. the idea that we're going to cut teachers and police officers and somehow that's going to lead to a more prosperous and stronger and safer future for americans, you have to scratch your head. what kind of thought process is it that if i cut back on

teachers, you know, i have less kids getting into college, and i cut back on first responders, somehow that's going to help our country grow and be successful? with all due respect, you have two very different visions. one about investing in those things that help the middle class grow. and one about sort of cutting away those things that help middle class grow in order to profit the very wealthy. >> kevin appreciate it. cornell as well. let us know what you think. send me a tweet@andersoncooper. stunning day in the jerry sandusky trial. prosecutoring calling two of their most powerful witnesses to the stand. the penn state coach who claims he actually caught sandusky in the courthouse. a live report from the courthouse. plus, the latest on the deadly and fast moving wildfire in colorado. why firefighters could face an even tougher battle tomorrow, next. [ male announcer ] eligible for medicare?

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crime and punishment tonight. graphic, emotional testimony today in the jerry sandusky trial coming from two of the prosecution's star witnesses. it started with the now 18-year-old accuser whose allegations first triggered this entire criminal investigation against the penn state assistant coach. in court documents, he's known as victim number one. we'll call him accuser number one. he's described meeting sandusky when he was just 11 years old and detailed how their contact escalated from kissing to repeated sexual assault. jurors also heard from mike mcqueary, the former member of the coaches staff at penn state said he witnessed sandusky in the middle of a sexual act with a young boy in the team's locker room. there are also new questions about what school officials knew about sandusky. prosecutors allege former penn state vice president gary schultz, who's facing perjury charges in the case, withheld

information during the investigation. i want to bring in national correspondent jason carroll covering the trial. also cnn contributor sarah ganham, reporter with the patriot news. whose won a pulitzer prize for her coverage of the sandusky trial. also jeffrey tuoobin. one of the most powerful witnesses was accuser number one. what about his testimony? what did you hear today? >> reporter: based on the courtroom reaction, anderson, it was extremely come peming np is an 18-year-old man. when he walked into the courtroom he looked vulnerable. quite frankly, he looked scared. when he sat down and began to testify he really became emotional when he described the abuse that he says began in 2005 at the hands of jerry sandusky mostly occurring in the basement of sandusky's home. he said it always began the same way. started with a back rub. he went on to say, quote, after rubbing and cracking my back, putting his hands down my shorts and blowing on my stomach he had -- he paused for a moment. then he broke down and began

crying. before he could finish he looked directly at jerry sandusky who was sitting in the front of the courtroom. jerry sandusky looked at him. then he went on to say he put his mouth on my privates. at that moment i looked at the jurors sitting to my left. juror number nine, an elderly woman in her 70s, a bus driver. if you'll recall during jury selection she was one of those who said i feel as though it's my duty to protect children. she had her hand over her mouth during this testimony. it clearly had a major impact on her. >> sir, the sandusky defense attorney joe amendola really pressed victim one. inconsistencies in his grand jury testimony. how did he handle that? >> honestly, anderson, he broke down at one point. and looked directly at the prosecutor and asked him for help. he said, please make him stop asking me the same question. you know, it was interesting, because during cross examination, joe amendola was harping on the fact his story had changed slightly.

accuser number one said on the stand -- he was quite honest, i thought, with jurors. he said, look, i testified three times before a grand jury. i told my story to multiple police officers. every time, it was someone new. i didn't feel comfortable with someone new. and so i was embarrassed and i was holding back. he said, but i'm here today telling the truth. joe amendola kept coming back at him and coming back at him with the same question. he just broke down at one point. he's 18 years old. and he looked at the prosecutor. he got no help. he gathered himself. and he answered the question one more time. then they moved on. >> jeffrey, you've been in courtrooms. how does that play to a jury? he's pressing a witness about apparent inconsistencies. is that a winning strategy? >> often it is. in this case, i doubt it. given the magnitude of these charges. given the number of accusers. given how embarrassing the information is. it would not be surprising if an 18-year-old kid told the story somewhat differently. look, amendola is doing his job. i don't begrudge him that. think about how horrible this

testimony is. mike mcqueary, what's mike mckeary's incentive to lie here? he looks horrible. he's the one who didn't go to the police when he sees jerry is raping this kid. why would he lie about that? yes, it's possible one witness could have a financial motive as the defense has raised. yes, it's possible someone could have told inconsistent stories. but when you have so many witnesses, it just seems overwhelming. >> what did mcqueary say on the stand today? >> reporter: mike mcqueary has basically been saying a lot of what we've been hearing all along. basically, he said he went into that locker room during that alleged incident. heard rhythmic sort of slapping sounds. skin on skin sound. went into the locker area. turned around, looked through a mirror. in his reflection he says he allegedly saw jerry sandusky embracing a young boy. the young boy with his hands up against the wall. at one point that really seemed

to grab the jurors' attention. when prosecutors put up a huge video screen and showed actual pictures of the shower and then put mannequins to position exactly where sandusky was standing and where this young boy was standing. at a certain point the defense tried to poke holes into mcqueary's story saying why couldn't you be certain it happened in 2001 or 2002? what sort of specifics were you telling others about this, university officials? but mckeary seemed to stand by his story saying all along, i know what i saw. >> what about these allegations of new documents that were released today that alleged that officials at penn state withheld evidence that was subpoenaed by the grand jury? >> it was actually part of a response that prosecutors filed. because one of those officials, gary shultz, is trying to get his charges dropped. so prosecutors filed this response that said, look, we just obtained these new documents that show more

evidence in your case. they're using it to bolster their case. they're saying he kept some kind of file. we don't know the contents of the file. only that it was some kind of file about allegations made against jerry sandusky. we know that gary schultz, this defendant, is one of the only people that knew about several different allegations because he was director of the police department. and there had been a report to police in 1998. and then he was also involved in a -- in the report mike mcqueary is involved in. >> jason, i understand we just got a response from his attorney? >> reporter: i'm reading it now. it comes to me on my blackberry. he says to be clear, quote, mr. schultz did not possess any secret files. all his files were left behind after he retired and were available to his secretaries and his successor. the only, quote, secret information revealed was the privileged grand jury information inaccurately described by unidentified law

enforcement sources to the media. that statement coming to us just a few moments ago from tom ferrell, gary schultz's attorney. >> how long do you think this is going to go on for? >> it's going to go a few more weeks. that's a lot -- the judge has said he's going to do this quickly, a in a couple weeks. i just find it hard to believe you can get that much testimony in that quickly. >> do you think sandusky will take the stand. >> i think it is out of the question. i just don't see how he can possibly respond to all this testimony. >> jason carroll, appreciate it. sarah ganham, jeff toobin. stunning report levels some incredibly serious allegations against the syrian government saying they are specifically targeting children, torturing them, killing them, murdering them, using them even as human shields. details ahead.

george zimmerman's wife is arrested. what she's accused of, tonight when we continue.

for months, we've reported on allegations of torture and

murder of children by the regime of bashar al assad in syria. a new report by the un documents shocking abuses of kids. really unprecedented attacks on children in this conflict. saying the pro regime forces have even used children as young as 8 years old as human shields. eyewitnesses say children of suspected dissidents are being captured and tortured. i just want to repeat that. adults who have simply spoken out against the regime have had their children arrested and tortured. beatings, blind foldings, stress positions, whippings with heavy electric cables, cigarette burns. in at least one incident, an electrical shock to the genitals. this is on children that we're talking about. new pictures. the u.n. peacekeeping chief now calling the conflict an all-out civil war. prorejeem thugs are also physically preventing monitors from observing a cease-fire. a cease-fire that doesn't exist, it's in name only. russia and china have blocked the security council from taking any significant action against al assad.

secretary of state hillary clinton accused russia of sending damascus helicopters such as this one. the video shows regime forces firing rockets over northern alepo province. >> we have confronted the russians about stopping their continued arms shipments to syria. they have from time to time said that we shouldn't worry, everything they're shipping is unrelated to their actions internally. that's patently untrue. and we are concerned about the latest information we have, that there are attack helicopters on the way from russia to syria, which will escalate the conflict quite dramatically. >> human rights watch is begging the u.n. security council to tighten economic sanctions and impose an arms embargo on the syrian government. war photographer photo journalist robert king spent more than two months under siege in homs. last week we showed you

some of his devastating footage from a makeshift hospital. robert king has just made his way out of the country. he joins me from beirut. robert, first of all, i'm so glad you are safe and that you've been able to focus world attention on what's happening inside syria. the u.n. now has this new report. they say the assad regime is targeting children as young as 9 years old. they're the victim of killings, maimings, arbitrary arrests, detention, torture, children used as human shields, even sexual violence. we've been seeing this for 15 months. the u.s. representative on violence says she's never seen such targeting of children. you've seen it firsthand. you saw children, correct? >> yes. it was horrifying. i saw more children than i've seen in 20 years of covering conflicts that have been wounded by this butcher, this regime. and their only crime is they're children of the revolution. >> have you ever seen that in other places? have you seen children directly targeted? at this level? >> no.

in fact, it's horrifying. there's no real words to describe the type of war crimes that are taking place. al kase rerks r is just one small city, town in syria but may represent what's taking place all across the country. >> the u.n. peacekeeping chief says syria is now in full-scale civil war. do you agree? >> i think it's still an ethnic cleansing process. i don't think the fsa or free syrian army have enough weapons to conduct a civil war. i mean, to have a civil war both sides have to be relatively armed. light weapons against heavy weapons, i don't think there's any room for reconciliation. i think that line has been crossed. so the next phase of this conflict would be an all-out civil war. whether it's starting now or a week from now or a month from

now. i don't know when that will take place. but it's obvious the country's heading in that direction, if it's not already there. >> but this is ethnic cleansing to you? >> yes. you know, they're killing the revolutionaries. then they're going after their children to kill them. the reports of them raping the women. and so you're wiping out two, three generations of people. and, to me, that is -- describes ethnic cleansing. >> secretary of state clinton said today that the u.s. is concerned russia is shipping attack helicopters to syria. how would that change the dynamic on the ground? just the other day, just yesterday we had reports of helicopters being used which is clearly, if true, an escalation of the conflict. how would helicopters change the dynamic? >> yes, they are using -- they're already using helicopters. i heard from the people of al

kaser yesterday that they were using airplanes. >> oftentimes -- you spent a lot of time there. you saw a lot of death very up close. you're now out. sometimes when you leave a conflict zone, i know you haven't had much time to reflect. but, you know, you have at least a little distance. you probably have a little more sleep than you've had before. what do you think about now? i mean, what is it like to no longer be there? what stays with you? >> just the stories. the people. there's a bit of survival guilt. a little bit of remorse. just the friends that i made along the way and where i want to -- to continue the relationships that we've built over this time. but i also have to continue and report on what's going on in their country. >> would you want to go back to syria? >> yeah, of course. maybe not to the same town but, you know, i'm not done there. i'm not going to let our colleagues die in vain. i'm not going to be intimidated by this regime.

and i will continue to do my work. >> well, robert, i really appreciate you talking with us. again, you've taken so many risks to try to get these images out. i really just -- i thank you for that. >> okay, thank you, anderson, i really thank you. >> very brave reporter. coming up, a story we've been following for years that keeps getting, well, more intense. a school in massachusetts that uses electric shocks on its students. students with severe developmental behavioral problems. autistic students. a report from a human rights organization goes into graphic detail with what they say are horrifying claims about what's happening at the school. they call it torture, pure and simple. i'll talk with the an attorney for the school when we continue.

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another keeping them honest report tonight on a story we've

been covering for years. it's a story of a school called the judge rosenberg center in massachusetts. a school where autistic students and others with severe behavioral and twomtal issues are given electric shocks to try to control their behavior. sometimes they're strapped down with restraints and shocked. the school says it's the last refuge for these students no other facility will take and to be sure there are parents who stand by the school and say it saved their children's lives. there's public outcry over what's going on at the school. the jrc for short. outcry reach add new level when a video was released showing the so-called aversive therapy technique the school uses. the school fought to keep the video from getting out. i want to warn you, it's hard to watch. it shows a then 18-year-old student named andre mccollins being shocked 31 times over the course of seven hours. [ child screaming ] >> the video is from 2002. mccollins is no longer at the facility. his family recently settled a lawsuit against the jrc. now, as we said, nearly every time we dig into this story, we

find new elements to it. rerecently uncovered this report from the a group called mental disability rights international. a human rights organization that advocates for people with disabilities. in 2010, the group issued an urgent appeal, saying the severe pain and suffering perpetrated against children and adults with disabilities at jrc violates the u.n. convention against torture. in its report, mdri quotes former students and teachers from the school and their accounts suggest the treatment goes far beyond the electrical shocks you just saw. some of the treatment is called behavioral research lessons. brls. one former student quoted in this report described them like this. quote, they try and make you do a bad behavior and then they punish you. the first time i had a brl two guys came in the room and grabbed me. i had no idea what was going on. they held a knife to my throat and i started to cream and i got shocked. i had brls three times a week for stuff i didn't do. i went on for six months or more. i was in a constant state of

paranoia or fear. it was more stress than i could ever imagine. horror. the jrc denies that any student has ever been threatened with violence to elicit an unacceptable behavior. in a moment we're going to hear from the attorney for the school. the school regularly compares the shocks to a bee sting. in this report, a former student says it's much worse. quote, i got the shocks for swearing, saying no, leaving a supervised area without asking and even for popping a pimple. any nonclient behavior. i had one electrode on each arm. one on each leg. one around the waist. it was the worst pain, like a third degree burn. they tell people it feels like a bee sting but they lie. also described in the report, systematically withholding food. as a form of punishment. the report describes students being deprived of food all day. then in the evening if their behavior improves getting some kind of mashed food sprinkled with liver powder. here is a lawyer for the jrc. also dr. louis craus. chief of child psychology at roush university medical center in chicago. doctor, as a child psychiatrist, you say treatment like this is tantamount to using cattle prods

on autistic children. aren't there some kids who simply can't be controlled any other way? that's what the school officials say. and have been rejected by other schools. >> you know, that's ridiculous. as though this is the only school in the country that takes care of very difficult children? their probably isn't a state in our nation that doesn't take care of kids like this. but they don't use these types of adversive treatments. there are many other treatments that have research bases to them that can be used often in a multidisciplinary-type way. often bringing in consultants when necessary. but not using aversive therapy >> michael, you're the attorney for the school. if this works, why is no other school in the country, and we can't find anyone else in the world, using it? >> the schools that say they don't use it, that treat the tough kids, the very difficult behavior disordered students that they can't treat without the adversives, they come to jrc.

they are discharged from those programs and sent to jrc. so jrc is treating the most difficult cases of behavior disorders in the nation. the toughest cases are at jrc. >> dr. kraus, do you buy that? >> i don't. i've worked in several residential facilities. i worked at the illinois state maximum security youth center in joliet for nine years. i just don't buy it. almost every state i know -- child psychologists, developmental pediatricians, they work in very tough facilities with kids that do really disastrous things. there are other techniques in taking care of them. simply because somebody has a no refusal policy doesn't mean they're necessarily taking care of the toughest kids. it means they want to get as many kids as they can. >> michael, the thing -- even the toughest prisoners in this country are not allowed to be, you know, strapped to electrodes and have shocks given to them to control their behavior. even the wildest animals are not systematically shocked.

so why is it okay to do this to kids? some of whom who can't even communicate? >> well, it's just an absurd comparison. >> why is it an absurd comparison? you have prisoners who are violent and a threat to others. >> anderson, let me answer your question. you wouldn't perform any treatment on a prisoner if they didn't need it. you wouldn't do dentistry. you wouldn't give them chemotherapy. you wouldn't amputate a limb. you don't give any treatment to a prisoner. you give treatment to someone who needs a treatment. the students at jrc, the clients at jrc, they've been tried in all these other programs the doctor is talking about. they were expelled from those programs. those programs could not deal with them. >> what i'm saying, why is it humane to do this to a child when it's not humane to do this to a hardened criminal? >> why is it humane to just let them bash their heads till they have a stroke? why is it humane to give them so much antipsychotic medication that they are catatonic?

that is inhuman main. >> we've heard from a former teacher's aid at the school who says it's not just severe behavior. sometimes it's meant to prevent severe behavior, noncompliant behavior. if a student gets out of the seat they can be shocked. >> it's false. all of this treatment is approved by the court. it's approved by the parents. it's approved by physicians. those are just false statements >> andre mccollins, when he was shocked more than 30 times over the course of seven hours and strapped down in four-point restraints, that was all priorly approved by the courts? >> yeah. he had attacked a staff person earlier that day. he was struggling with the staff. the staff were doing everything they could to help him. >> so you're saying he needed -- but you're saying he needed to be shocked more than 30 times over the course of seven hours? >> well, at the trial, the expert for the plaintiff, mrs. mccollins, testified that adversives are needed for some people, for the tough behavior disordered cases, add vesives were needed for andre mccollins.

his opinion was on that day they should have stopped after five applications. this is something that happened ten years ago. >> the doctor saying they should have stopped -- >> anderson -- >> you just said. th this stuff is all court approved. and doctor approved. you just talked about somebody who said no, this kid did not need to be shocked 30 times over seven hours. >> no, this is the plaintiff's expert at the trial. you're missing the important point, anderson. aversives -- he testified. aversives are needed for some tough cases. avesives were needed for andre mccollins. on that day with that severe behavioral outbursts, he would have stopped after five application. again, this was ten years ago. that's not how jrc would handle it ten years into the future, which is where we are right now. >> dr. kraus, these students can be dangerous. is there a place in the treatment of these types of kids for shocks? i mean, can you image any situation where shocks would be

valuable? >> i cannot imagine any situation where using this type of shock treatment or any type of aversive treatment would be a reasonable type of approach to help these kids. when you look over the report among some of the kids that are accepted into this program, you've got kids with post-traumatic stress disorder. the concept of shocking these kids. if you look at the practice parameter for the american academy of child and adolescent psychiatry, the treatment of children in residential facilities, this just came out. they're very specific about not using aversive treatment. they're very specific on using multidisciplinary approaches. and this -- there's no construct of this occurring. you know, this is all based on antiquated theory. from skinner that basically has been debunked many years ago. human beings are much more complicated than simply behavior. >> michael, this report from this organization, you say, what?

that it's -- it's just false? >> well, they're -- no, it's a joke. i mean, that agency never told jrc they were doing an investigation. they never came to jrc. they never asked to come to jrc. they only talked to people who were already on the internet, on the record being against aversives. it wasn't an investigation. the report isn't worth the paper it's written on. the fact of the matter is i've been representing the school for over 20 years, anderson. i see these people when they come into the school. they are on so much medication they can't even open their eyes. they can barely walk. they're drooling on themselves. and they're coming from the institutions that say they can treat these behavior disorders without aversives. guess what, they can, they just sedate them. and these parents want something better for their kids. they see these kids getting less than one two-second application a week. the behaviors are gone. they're in the classroom. they're learning. that is far more humane than what this doctor is talking about. >> dr. kraus, do you tdisagree this might work to control

behavior? it seems like what you're saying this is just unethical, just inappropriate, whether or not it actually can control some behavior. >> there are a couple of issues here. number one, aversive treatment at best is painful. at worst is potentially a torturous process. it is not research based. it's not peer reviewed. this type of treatment was used prior to sensory integration modalities with occupational therapy. prior to different types of medication managements. prior to more intensive speech and language work. prior to positive behavioral treatment plans being implemented. some would take -- most of my work is with child advocacy. i'm a child and adolescent psychiatrist. i certainly use psychotropic medications in my regimes. it's one small part of what we do. the reality is -- >> but it's what these kids -- >> excuse me, i let you -- >> let him finish.

>> these kids with behavioral disorders, that's what they get. they get that small part of the doctor's practice he's talking about. they get the drugs. they get massive doses of drugs. the doctor is not familiar -- >> dr. kraus, he's basically saying you guys dope these kids up. >> i understand. he's cutting me off. he apparently didn't like what i was saying. the reality is the child psychiatrists really don't dope kids up. there are medications. that are clearly tranquilizers that can potentially be used. that is not what we do in the great majority of children. >> okay. >> when medications are used. the point is -- you know what -- >> we're talking about a small majority of students. >> you're a joke, sir. >> we get the small majority of students this doctor is talking about. those are the people we get. the doctor's not familiar with the literature. in the last five year, there has been several peer reviewed articles that have said for the toughest cases -- >> michael, come on. if this thing worked it would be used more across the nation. it would be used in some other country. no other place uses this. the guy who runs your school and

came up with it had to resign. >> no, it's being used in other countries. it's being used in the netherlands -- >> didn't the guy who created the school have to resign? >> he retired, okay -- >> under -- to avoid prosecution. >> you come to the school, anderson. you'll see these kids. you see how well they're doing. >> again, you're not answering. he resigned to avoid prosecution, correct? >> yeah. but anderson, are we here to talk about the treatment? is that the issue, anderson? that's what i'm here to talk about. >> you're talking about how this is peer reviewed. >> i'm talking about the kids that need the help. >> if the guy who created this destroyed documents and had to resign to avoid prosecution, that's part of the story. >> i'm talking about the peer reviewed articles that say shock is appropriate and necessary. i'm here to talk about the kids you're forgetting about, anderson, and you're not focusing on. >> i appreciate you being on. doctor, as well. dr. kraus -- >> if i could establish, i'm not aware of any peer reviewed

articles. >> the doctor needs to look more closely. >> send us all your peer reviewed articles. we'll review them. >> i'd be happy to do that. up next t, the latest on th deadly wildfire in colorado. . to give it a sense of direction, at&t created a mobile asset solution to protect and track everything. so every piece of equipment knows where it is, how it's doing or where it goes next. ♪ this is the bell on the cat. [ male announcer ] it's a network of possibilities -- helping you do what you do... even better. ♪

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from 17 today. it's so big you can see the smoke from denver 60 miles away. evacuated pets are being housed at the larimore county humane society. some people are refusing to evacuate. want to go to meteorologist chad myers for more. what is it going to look like tomorrow, chad? >> it's going to look bad. especially on the western flank. this is roosevelt national park. the problem is, we talked about this a little bit yesterday, in that national park, 70% of the trees are dead because of a beetle infestation. so this isn't burning live trees. this is burning just dead timber that's just ready to burn. the good news is not many people live out that way because it is national park. this thing grew about 10,000 acres. 7,000 to 10,000 acres overnight. that's about ten square miles. and today was a good day. the winds weren't bad. winds were down. tomorrow, they pick up a little bit. even at this point in time, gusts only 16 miles per hour, anderson, right there in ft.

collins. you get higher in elevation, though, higher up towards estes park. we have gusts to 22. that's the danger category. that's when sparks can fly. we won't get those winds tomorrow. they will die off. but thursday, we could see thunderstorms. that sounds like a good thing. except for the lightning part. and very little rain. by saturday and sunday, the winds could be back to 40. they need to get a handle on this tomorrow. >> we'll continue to follow it. i appreciate the update. a lot more following. let's check in with isha. >> the man hunt to a suspected triple murder suspect is over in alabama. the montgomery county sheriff says desmonte leonard has turned himself into u.s. marshals tonight. he's accused of killing three people including two former auburn university football players. george zimmerman's wife shelley is free on bail after being arrested on a perjury charge. prosecutors say she lied at her husband's bond hearing about their finances. due to those accusations a judge ordered george zimmerman back to jail. parents of trayvon martin who george zimmerman is accused

of murdering are calling on a florida task force to change or repeal the state's stand your ground law. they delivered more than 340,000 petitions today pleading for reform at the task force's first meeting. a heated hearing on capitol hill. attorney general eric holder rejected a call for his resignati resignation. republican senator jon cornyn accused holder of misleading congress about what he and other top justice department officials knew about the botched fast and furious gun running operation in mexico. here's your chance to own a piece of american history. george washington's 223-year-old copies of the constitution and bill of rights are being sold at auction. it's predicted they'll fetch up to $3 million. we'll be right back. meineke's personal pricing on brakes.

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