and dogs figure into the justice system, i think the most cogent comment came, apparently you morons didn't understand me the first time. i would wrather count the wrinkles on my dog's [ bleep ] rather than sit on a jury. sometime soon every dog will have its election day. that does it for us. we'll be back one hour from now. "pirs morgan tonight" starts now. tonight, politics. why some say this country needs attack ads. the dirtier, the better. >> one is going to come up with a fear-inducing ad that works. >> i'll ask him how this could possibly be good for america. plus, eric holder, a house panel wants the attorney general cited for contempt.

will fast and furious go higher? >> who knew about it this? how high did it go? did it go to the attorney general or the president of the united states? >> the man who defended president clinton about that. also a man not afraid to speak his mind. the front man of the smashing pumpkins, billy corgin. why he feels so disappointed by president obama. and our "in america." news flash -- it's summer and it's hot. wait a minute. that's news? this is "piers morgan tonight." good evening, a little while ago, the house committee voting on partisan lines representing that eric holder be cited for contempt as part of the ongoing battle between congress and the administration of the fast even furious failed weapon sting operation that could end with an unprecedented event -- the

united states congress holding a sitting attorney general in contempt. the measure goes to the full house next week. in a statement, the attorney general called the vote, quote, an election year tactic intended to distract attention. but does this battle come down to simple politics? or is it something more serious? i'll ask the special council lanny davis. we begin with a poll showing president obama with a 13-point lead over mitt romney among likely voters. frank rich joins me now. strong stuff here, frank. >> i'm not the headline writer. >> i may play a little earlier, a little girl was running through a flower-filled field and then gets blown to pieces by a nuclear bomb. if you vote for that guy, that's

happening to your daughter. i know the theme of the piece. interestingly, uh you're saying, although you don't necessarily agree with negativity in ads, you think they're very effective. and if obama is going to win, he has to step up a gear and go double negative on romney? >> yes. first offal awe, there's a long history back to the days of pony express. they're always used they're always used equal lly by democrs and prunes and used to unilaterally disarm. this is the world we live in. >> you talk about previous negative ads. one of the greatest ever -- people think it's bad now. get this. you cite this in your piece. andrew jackson v john quincy adams in 1888. adams was accused of murder, drunkenness, dock fighting,

slave trading and canalism. and also said jackson's wife and mother were bother w er whwhore. >> bigamists, yeah. everyone says this is a horrible modern development in american campaigns. it's always kbn there. that was the early part of the 19th semplry. and by the way, jackson won, in spite of -- >> even though he got called a cannibal, murderer, dock fighter, slave trader, he ended up winning the election. >> appealed to the base. >> how effective is a very strong negative campaign? i mean, historically, since the second world war, say, is there evidence to say that when you go really negative against a vulnerable opponent perhaps, you'll win? >> it's not determine tif, but they cement a trend that's going. and they're essential for that reason.

the daisy ad sf johnson versus goldwater. the problem now is that they've become so ubiquitous, you've got to have the creativity that the daisy ad showed. >> let's see the daisy ad. it remains my favorite political ad in history. let's see a bit of this. >> eight, nine -- >> ten, nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, two, one, zero. these are the stakes. to make a world in which all of god's children can live. or to go into the dark. we must either love each other or we must die. >> vote for president johnson on november 3. >> given that it's about nuclear

holocaust, it isn't funny, but -- >> it is laughable. i interviewed the poor girl, who is now a woman who is horrified when she finds out what they had done with her lovely little flower performance. >> the reason why the ad was effective in its day of 1964 is first of all, it played oen a real fear of the public which was then nuclear holocaust. and godwater had a habit of using loose language about nuclear weapons. also, it was very craftily done. gho goldwater's name was never mentioned in the ad. it was just shown once and that was it. >> but if a candidate tried that now, whatever the justification for it in their eyes, they would probably lose, wouldn't they? >> an ad will come up or may come up with a fear induces ad

that works. there was we know an attempt now abandoned by people supporting romney to do one with jeremiah wright that might have been effective. >> whatever. >> the argument being that john mccain decided not to push those. you should have gone that far. it is a justifiable line of attack. >> keep in mind, he did run an ad comparing obama to brittaney spears and paris hilton. obama ran an ad about how mccain didn't know how many houses he owned. but it has to get above the tit-for-tat, the kind of ads that are generally run. >> let's take a look at romney's latest ad which has just come out. >> of course the economy isn't where it needs to be. >> well, mr. president, we've

seen your results. and now, mr. president, this is our time. >> what do you think? to me, it's a bit tame. >> it's tame and mediocre for a piece of fizzing. not to say that obama has come up with great ads either. i would argue the most effective campaign ad we've seen in the cycle wasn't done by either campaign. it was the chrysler ad at the super bowl with clint eastwood. >> i thought that was fantastic. >> it was a fantastic ad. you need that kind of dynamite. that was not a negative ad, but that kind of creativity was needed. >> i remember watching it live with no warning about what was coming and the clear impression that you went away with was, the bailout of the car industry was a fundamentally good and successful thing. so it was a very well orchestrated, very simple message using this great movie star. >> exactly. and while i think the obama campaign had nothing to do with

it, it stunned sufficiently that karl rove both complained about it and said hey, it's a very effective ad. >> take a look at obama's new ad here. >> running for governor, mitt romney campaigned as a job creator. >> i know how created. but as a corporate raider, he shipped jobs to china and mexico. he did the same thing, outsourcing state jobs to india. now he's making the exact same pitch. >> i know why jobs come and why they go. >> outsourcing jobs. it didn't work then and won't work now. >> clearly obama sees the whole romney bain background as a vulnerability. whereas others don't agree with him. is he right to keep pushing that? would you do that if you were

him? a bloomberg poll has obama with the widest lead he's had for quite some time. >> right, which also might be a reflection of the new immigration move that he made late last week. i think that both bain and the record in massachusetts, they're obviously very fruitful for obama, but at a certain point, i think people will get tired of them. and they feel like rereturns, particularly since they were given a workout by the republican adversaries to romney during the primary period. so he's going to have to find a bigger message. not that he's wrong, but people will tune it out from familiarity. >> if you're into this nuclear negativity, the real button some would say to press with romney would be the mormonism, his views on abortion, on gay marriage and the social issue hot buttons, which he's very carefully trying to avoid. would you go there if you were obama? >> i guess that's one hot issue, but i would say there's something even more, which is people don't really know who romney is. you find there's no opinion -- a

fair number of people have no opinion about him. he's mystery man. do people really know where hive wills. his whole record was wiped from hard disk that he left. we don't know the tax returns that he gave to mccain. his investments remain murky. that to me is a more primal scary thing for people choosing a president than any specific social issue. >> i saw you getting involved in the rubio debate earlier today. >> uh-huh. >> in the sense that -- well, i had frank on yesterday saying he doesn't believe for a moment that actually rubio will be the vp pick in the end. what do you think of why romney has now come out and said yes, we are vetting h im. rubio said he wasn't being vetted. what do you make of it? >> my guess is that rubio indeed will not be the vice presidential nominee. and my guess is abc news had it correct when they said he wasn't being vetted. what happened during the course of the day yesterday was suddenly it looked like another

diss at hispanics. probably angered some conservative donors who love rub rubio. 106 romney said oh, yes, of course we're givinging him a full vetting. but i hate to say it, i think it's another etch-a-sketch moment. >> if you were mitt romney, who would you be leaning towards now? >> who's a smart pick? >> i don't think there really is a smart pick. i think it's really first do no harm. he's probably going to end up with another boring white guy like himself. and as long as that guy has been thoroughly vetted. >> pawlenty? or a bit more controversial? maybe chris christie who could galvanize the public better than most other candidates. >> i don't think chris christie would work. first of all, he's still a northeast republican, a little bit suspiciously moderate by that party's standards, but also he would just completely upstage

romney. and already reading reports of romney is a bit irritated that christie tends to be late to events. there's been investigation oof a sort of halfway house that christie is involved with. i think he wants someone safe and who people will forget who he is by the time of election day. >> come on, you're mitt romney, who would you go for? throw a name out there that would be the kind of person you're talking about. >> well, i think if he had got, given that type of person, he should probably go for paul ryan. because paul ryan is, like him or not, sort of the intellectual of the conservative movement right now. the base loves him and certainly a presentable guy. pawlenty is the most talked about. i don't think it will happen, though. if i were he and going in that direction, that would be the most interesting choice. >> let's turn to the possible contempt charges facing eric how

old -- holler, the attorney general. he's refusing to hand over documents. the president invoking executive privilege. whenever i hear that phrase, i think okay, they're covering something up. am i right to be that cynical? >> probably, but i have a feeling in this case it's pret fi small potatoes. and also in one way, the executive privilege stand has been used so much by democrats and republicans, clinton, bush and so on. i think it's sort of lost its luster. i don't think this is a really huge issue, this fast and furious. it is among the republican base. congress will rev up the base a bit on it, but i think it's not really a big deal. >> thank you very much for coming coming in see you again i'm sure very soon. eric holder under fire. the president is standing by his man, but will it cost him political politically? i'll ask lanny davis.

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how much problem will this be for the president and his administration in lanny davis was white house counsel for president clinton. apart from everything else, you're a good friend of eric holder. have been for 20 years. and when you were with president clinton, he famously operated this executive privilege 14 times. what is your view of this? how serious is it for eric holder? how justified is the criticism? >> well, first of all, this is an historical battle within the constitution going back to andrew jackson who defied congress and said you pass the law, now you execute it. congress and the white house over the year, democrat and republican presidents have fought over executive privilege. george bush resisted turning over documents during the firing of the u.s. attorneys on the grounds of executive privilege. president clinton did it so many times because he was slapped with more temperatures by newt gingrich than any other president. >> what does it actually mean?

for those hearing this phrase, like me, who aren't completely up to speed on the minutia of the detail, it just sounds murky. it sounds like they've got something to hide. why wouldn't they just be coming out with it otherwise? >> the constitutional principle, versus the political reality. the constitutional principle, i work for the president of the united states, and i want to give him advice. i don't give advice if i know if i put it in writing someone in congress can hold a press conference about it. i'm going to guard my advice. same thing as a staff member or member of congress if the president asks for it. they would assert the same. that's what it's about. confidentiality and the ability to get candid advice. having said that, in the political arena, it looks like a cover-up. what happen eric holder did, and he's been a friend and a man of absolute integrity, he went to the chairman issa and said let's sit down, let's go through these documents, let me show you why this needs to be protected, having nothing to do with your inquiry of what went wrong in this tragic misguided fast and

furious operation that began under this bush administration, this stupid technique. he wanted to work this out, and for some reason, i think it's all politics, chairman issa didn't work it out. and that's why the contempt citation is really over the top, as far as i'm concerned. >> what do you think will happen? >> i think that the house will not vote contempt. if they do, a party line vote will simply reinforce exactly why today i'm organizing a company with michael steele to get past this food fight hyper partisanship that the american people are sick of. a party line vote of contempt will take the 9% approval rating of congress, down to 3%. we'll be left with family and staff members who approve of congress. >> you wrote this great piece together to obama and romney, stop negativity. ironically, i just had frank rich on the show saying the opposite. he says all the negative campaign should be ramped up to an extreme scale on both sides.

because actually that's the way you get to what they really stand for. that pulverize each other like great champion boxers and in the last round you find out what they're really made of. >> it's easy for frank to say that watching the gladiators kill each other and it's gorry and it's fun. but i don't think frank rich means that distortion and lies are good for american politics. michael steele, former chairman of the rnc, republican national committee criticizes mitt romney for taking a barack obama statement that he doesn't know anything about the economy when he was referring to john mccain taking it out of context and then mitt romney says well, if it's out of context, what's sauce for the goose. >> frank doesn't like the negative ads. what he's saying is instinctively, he dpunt think they're a good thing, per say. what he thinks is that mitt romney is going to throw the negative kitchen sink at barack obama, so he has to fight fire with fire. if you're going to get into that game, you may as well pulverize him with the maximum negativity.

>> so here's the quick answer. i completely agree that's a reality that frank is describing. but the answer is to debate issues and give people a debate choice on issues about solving problems. the company we organized is purple nation solutions, and that to me is what frank would agree with. we can get them to debate obama and romney on what are we going to do about the national debt. why hasn't barack obama endorsed simpson bowles which would take an across the board approach. what is romney going to do with debt if he doesn't raise any revenues? that's negativity contrasting ideas. that's what we think ought to happen. >> can a presidential candidate win through positivity alone? >> well, it isn't necessarily -- the answer is yes, but contrasting, i think, barack obama's ideas are better than mitt romney's. i think he's got a better approach on national health care.

i want to know how romney is going to take care of 33 million uninsured people if the supreme court overturns this law. people want to know answers. so there's negativity, but it's negativity about issues. it's not personal attacks. cory booker tried to say that and you know who condemned him worse than anybody? this administration actually said he's dead to us when cory booker said more positive on that particular program about barack obama than he said negative. all he said was he didn't like the personal attacks on both sides. and his own fellow democrats, fellow obama supporters criticized him. >> wasn't cory booker a bit naive? i like him very much, but wasn't he naive if he was going to oppose the bain line of attack. that is a central plank of barack obama's attack on mitt romney, isn't it? he's basically saying if you judge him on the economy through his record at bain, he's going to destroy jobs. that's why he got so touchy about it.

>> if you read the transcript, it was almost all positive about barack obama. does a friend say to a friend what you're doing, which i think is wrong, he should keep doing if he wants to get him re-elected? that was the effect of saying he's dead to us. harold ford jr., a supporter of barack obama's, governor ed rendell of fn pn, myself, all thought the bain attack isn't going to help you, barack obama. tell why your health care plan is good for the american people. not the distorted ad about bain. >> i want to change gears a bit and move to the jerry sandusky trial. you worked a lot with penn state and you have some pretty interesting views, i would imagine, about what's going on this week .. [ barking ] i'm your dog,

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dottie sandusky didn't say it didn't happen. she said she went to bed after her husband and that her husband went down to essentially tuck the overnight guests, the boys into bed.

>> that's come klein, the attorney for alleged victim number five. today, the defense rested its case. tomorrow, closing arguments begin. back with me, lanny davis. you're a top lawyer, you've been a white house council, crisis manager expert. all of these skills are pretty seriously tested in this case. on the face of it, it's pretty grim for penn state, isn't it? >> well, first let me say, i have to be very limited in what i can say to you about this, piers. a man is in trial and he's entitled to the presumption of innocence and the jury is going to decide mr. sandusky's fate. i can tell you that in working for penn state, i love yale as a great university. i have never seen an alumni, a student body, a faculty that loves a place more than i've seen in the penn state family. and i know one thing, that they should not be judged or

identified with this particularly tragedy, if it turns out he's guilty, may he go to jail for a long time. this great university should not be defined by this tragedy. >> when you have such an iconic character, wielding such power through his years of experience, that if it turns out that sandusky is guilty and gets laid off for a long time and is sort of confirmed again that joe paterno knew and others knew, that that brings shame to penn state, doesn't it? an institution that more young boys were allowed to be abused simply because those in positions of authority for whatever reason didn't do anything. >> nus to be clear and protect myself, i didn't know we would be talking about this subject tonight. i can only say that joe paterno

was a great man and passed away. he did admit to a grand jury that he knew there was conduct of a sexual nature from someone who told him and he reported that fact to his superior. and we can judge that decision or not, but i still say that things happen in big institutions and they shouldn't be judged by the aberration. if mr. sandusky is conflicted, he does not reflect penn state as i've come to know it and love it. he is an aberration. he doesn't reflect humanity, if he's convicted, doing these awful things if he is convicted. >> do you feel that whatever happens, that every other version of penn state in america that has sporting athletic, great sports teams, athletic coaches and so on and academic institutions, that they will at the very least now be more transparent than they may have been because of what happened

there? do you think there's been a seismic shock to the whole system in this country? >> well, without focusing on just higher education, i think a good part of government's problem is an absence of transparency. a good problem of what happens inside congress behind closed doors is an absence of transparency. i worked for a company and did some lobbying to this company and said to a client, wh enwe walk in a member's door, we are on c-span. and that idea of transparency, which i believe is an across-the-board problem is i think a big solution. where in the world of campaigns you have big super pacs without transparency as to who's giving the money and paying for these attack acts. my company purple nation solutions are trying to engage in a new type of politics where we're looking at solutions to problems, not food fights. >> lanny, i wish you -- >> brought it back to my

company. >> great how you held down all these great jobs. >> strong 3opinions in great american politics, smashing pumpkins front man billy corgan is not happy with president obama. ♪ you can never leave me without a piece of you ♪ ♪ the more you change the less you feel ♪ [ male announcer ] this is genco services --

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♪ >> 1979, a killer song from the smashing pumpkins. they've been churning out hits for years, selling 30 million albums and treated to worldwide fame. their new album "oceania" is out

today. billy corgan is the founder and front man for the smashing pumpkins. welcome, billy. >> welcome. >> i was expecting like a smoldering volcano when they booked you. i thought this angry man of rock would come in -- >> i'm sure you'll get to it, piers. you're very good at that. >> this undercurrent of menace across the desk. you seem quite affable to me. >> well, i like your show. that has a lot to do with it. you know? i talk to a lot of people and i don't respect them and i walk into the room with that. >> well, that actually means a lot to me. >> you do some great interview. i've been interviewed a lot. there's the right interview and there's the -- you start phoning it in because it's just robot language. >> what is the kind of interview that absolutely sends you demeanted? >> they google. they just google you and go with all the headlines. to me, if you're talking to an artist, it's a rare opportunity

to get into the mind of the artist and the greatest interview, people like you and charlie rose, they penetrate into a place where you go okay, now i understand why they're like that. that's what i want to know as a fan of somebody. >> what do you think of america right now? >> you're starting right off there. >> yeah. i'm interested in your view of the country. >> i'm very disappointed in my country right now. i think we've kind of lost our moral come papass. we've turned into a whining society. i think we have to get out of this paternalistic churn we're in where we want daddy to come and save us and the banks to come and save us. we need to get back to a level of social responsibility that we haven't seen in a long 250itime. i'm disappointed. the level of political and culture rhetoric is so low. it's kind of shocking. everybody seems to be okay with it. well, that's just the way it goes. i'm sorry. i'm from the lower middle class.

i see the middle class lol lholg out. i know so many people struggling, and yet we're arguing about these stupid nuncy thing which political commentators know are bs. meanwhile, it's affecting real people with real lives and families. that's really hard for me to watch. >> your comment about paternal and maternal responsibility. you grew new a weird situation where both of your natural parents distanced themselves from you at a very young age and left you to run your life as you could. how much has that guided your sense of people not being reliant on their parents? >> that's a really good question. i don't know. i think we all take our experiences -- from a spiritual point of view it's whether we transmute those experiences into

something positive. for a lot of years i just complained. and i looked like a very unhappy rock star. and one day i woke up and i started thinking about the world differently and seeing my place in it and started thinking wow, you know, my record sales versus what's really going on in my country or the world. i mean, i've got to get some proportionality here. once i started doing that, i started seeing the world with much different eyes. >> politically, you've been -- i wouldn't say vague, but nobody has ever really been able to pin you down. are you an obama man at heart? >> no, no. i was raised a democrat in a somewhat liberal family. when you grow up around drug addicts and freaks, you tend to lean left. as a kid, it was a lot of anti-nixon stuff. in essence, in my family's mind, the '50s, archetype of the shutdown alcoholic male worked with the republican party for a

while. but i also remember my grandmother connie sitting in front of the tv when reagan was nominat nominated,s before he was president. nominated for the candidacy and crying saying he's going to bring this country back. he was an immigrant from it will i. she thought reagan was going to restore to this country whatever she thought. so i've lived in both paradigms. i'm at the point where i don't trust either political party. i don't see a reasonable third party independent run from anybody that's rational and going to get there. but the choices we have are so compromised. i just don't get it. but again, that seems -- everybody wants the theatre more than they want the reality. >> what is the kind of leader that you're craving in an american president? >> moral compass. and that's where i'm disappointed in the president. is he ran on a moral k krcompas agenda. but what happened? i'm sure there's lots of good

reasons and i'm sure they'll roll somebody out to counter thoughts like that, but i don't see it. and i travel the world and so do you. i've seen foreigners really shift on their view of america. and that's hard for me to take. i still believe in my country. i know the working class of this country is really what this country is about. that's where i grew up, that's my people. when i see them broken down, that's hard to watch. >> i saw the premier of the now drama "news room" based around a cable news show like this. starring jeff daniels. i watched it last night. jeff daniels character makes a speech to a bunch of students. he's asked what he thinks about america. he says it's completely wrong to say america is the greatest country in the world. it used to be. and it can be again, but if you look at education, science, literally, et cetera, et cetera, america is lagging way behind now many countries. what do you think?

>> i agree. i don't see the vigorous democracy -- not democratic -- the vigorous democracy that i was raised to believe in. and i don't understand where that went. now, does that mean somebody wants that debate to go down because it's easier to control, you know, an archetized people? or is it just we're all so stuck in our phones now we don't have time to car about the reality of our country? i don't really understand all the causal effects. i have theories, but -- >> one theory could be the celebrification of america and most of the civilized world and politics. maybe that's part of the problem. i want you to hang on to that thought. how much can we blame celebrities? let's start naming a few. stay in the moment sanya

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♪ back with the smashing pumpkins billy corgan.

"oceania" was released today. i got that right that time. finally got the guy's album title correct. let's talk about celebrities. it seems to me you flirt on both sides of this fence. you've been st-- >> literally celebrities. >> i would have thought somebody like you would rail against the whole paris hilton genre for being talentless, you've been mated with her, you've been mated with other stars of that genre. >> i've even rolled in the hey with a few of them. >> i know you have. how many? >> more than one and less than five. >> jessica simpson was one, right? did you actually roll in the hey with her? >> she actually has a hay bale in her bedroom. >> so a little part of you is drawn to these stars. >> absolutely. i grew up in the 1970s, and, you

know, "dallas" and "gilligan" somebody like jessica who can't gain or lose five pounds, you can say whatever you want, whether you're a fan or not. but to put a woman in that position, that's not her creating that position and i don't want to hear this argument that they're celebrities, it's a little more complicated like that. i give credit to people like paris for creating an industry out of people who are obsessed with them. it's the people who pretend they're not like that that make me crazy. >> i actually like both paris and kim. but is there a problem fundmentically with a society

and a culture which puts people like that on a pedestal in the sense that it chips away at the mystique of people who are more deserving of star status. you go back 50 years and you have the great actors and singers. the only way you could be famous in that era was to be genuinely world-clad talented. and that's gone. >> and hollywood beauty standards have shifted. the american public has become sort of me obsessed and that's where the projected thing happens. it's easier for them to project on somebody like kim kardashian than it is like linda evang lista. >> you're an active twitter. >> unfortunately. >> you can't help but read all

the terrible stuff on there, which i sort of enjoy. you said the internet has made every one archie bunker. which i love. the flip side is every one has a flip side now on twitter. why shouldn't they have a voice. >> i have no problem with that. i have a problem when -- if you talk to most people, they have a hard time understanding what social responsibility is. i'm out there and i understand the social responsibility and the position i have. i don't just say anything i want. >> tell me about "oceania." it's out now. what do you feel about this problem? >> what's interesting about it in my life i made some great albums in the '90s, which become almost like a mill stone around my neck. you'll never do it. then i make an album that's just as good and they're wait a

second, okay now the question is why did you step making these albums. and they can't understand the cultural aspects to be an are the advertise and be in the town turn and you find yourself reacting and rejecting against those expectations only through maturity and a little bit of spiritual revolution have i realized that i was diminishing myself on some level to answer some question that i couldn't answer and this is just my way of saying i could have done this all along and now i'm in a good place where i can do this. >> it's a terrific album. you are true to yourself and that is an unusual quality in many musicians of my experience so i wish you the very best with it. it's been a pleasure. >> thank you. there are a lot of warning lights and sounds vying for your attention. so we invented a warning

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for tonight only in america and now the weather. atmospheric conditions are not sclusive to this country but what seems to be unique to america is the extraordinary obsession over them especially at this time of year. today is the first official day of summer. and it's been hot, insanely hot in some places. i walked across new york's central park and i suddenly

understood what lawrence of arabia went through. but is that news? my old buddy al roker made it sound almost biblical. >> here are some of the temperatures we're talking about from d.c. to boston, 95, 97, boston 97, 98 to 99 degrees in d.c., pittsburgh and this extends back to the west as well. >> wow. al you're scaring me. next you're going to tell us it's going to get hotter in july. record breakling temperatures, severe heat, should we just huddle under a sprinkler and cool down? it's supposed to be like this on the first day of summer. that's why it's called summer. it's pretty well always like this, yet still the reporters fan out showing sweating workers on the street, children frolicing for safety in fts and frying an egg