good evening, everyone. top of the hour.

we became good friends. and i obviously, as you know, supported and endorsed him very early in hopes to have some impact in the new hampshire primary. >> being as dispassionate as you can be, when you study his record, at bain, as a businessman, do you think he was predominantly a force of job creation or as some other people say, look, that's fine, he creates jobs but also wrecked other jobs. >> you know, the problem with the free enterprise system, is that not everybody succeeds. the great thing about communism and old soviet union is nobody ever failed. so the point is, that in this system, that bain is involved in, they went to companies and groups that were either struggling or just beginning and

they invested. sometimes they failed, sometimes they succeeded. best example, of course, i'm sure you've heard many times, a warehouse and $5 million ended up in staples. so it is obvious that bain was in the business to make money. and i know h evil that is for people to make money. don't get me wrong. i know how terrible it is. they were in the business to make money. but in the process, they created thousands of jobs. unfortunately, the down side to the free enterprise system is, that sometimes businesses fail. i think it's important to note and again, this i hope will come out, mitt romney would probably have made one heck of a lot more money if he had stayed at bain capital instead of going to the olympics. the olympics at salt lake was about to collapse. he went out there and worked 16 hours a day and made it a profitable enterprise. >> whatever people think of mitt romney, he turned around the olympics and that was incredibly successful.

>> and left bain capital, which men meant that he didn't make, one, a lot more money than he was already making. >> he is not exactly struggling, is he? let's be honest. >> no, he's not. >> you're in a unique position. because obviously when he was vetted to potentially run with you, you got to see these now infamous documents, detailing his financial affairs. going back many years. you said you didn't see anything in those that should be a concern. so the obvious question, i guess, is if that is the case, why he is being so reluctant to put them out there? his own father put out 12 years of records. why doesn't he just do it? >> first of all, let me put this into context. this is done by everybody. when you are vetting people that you are considering to be your running mate, you ask for every kind of confidential information. of course. and one of the things that you guarantee the people when they give law that information is that it remain confidential. i feel a little regretful that i

have to say when i say, that i saw nothing or our team saw nothing in our tax returns that would have been damaging. second of all, look, i released two years. john kerry didn't release his wife's tax returns. it has been a standard of behavior. and what, frankly, they worry about, okay release five years, why not ten, why not 15, on and on like that. so it is a decision that the romney campaign has it make. but to somehow say that he should do something that no other candidate in recent history has done, i think is patently unfair. >> just to clarify, you never saw anything that you think would cause him embarrassment. >> of course not. >> the implication, we know about swiss bank accounts, cayman islands, there is more stuff over time that would show he saved a lot of money through tax -- it not illegal, but through sharp tax practice.

>> first of all, as i said, i saw nothing, or my team saw nothing, in any way that would be harmful. but the important point is that we now have a campaign based on his tax returns or not his tax returns. the obama campaign sunk so low that his deputy campaign manager, ms. cutter, says he may have committed a felony. i've got to tell you, i've not seen a presidential campaign where that campaign sunk that low this early. that he may have been a felon. really? on what basis of fact would anybody say anything like that? so listen, this is a chicago style desperate campaign that obama people are running. and because -- >> what does chicago style mean? >> chicago style means there is very few depths you won't plummet. that the reputation of chicago style politics. and in fact this may have been a felon, breaches a new depth i haven't seen before.

>> seriously? the lowest you've ever seen? >> i haven't seen anyone accused of possibly being a felon. i would have never considered any opponent of mine saying they could be a felon, but that's part of the campaign. >> let me throw it back at you here. >> sure. let me just make one additional point if i could. new making fun of mitt romney singing america the beautiful. now, is that really the right thing to do? i hope that every american at every event will sing america the beautiful, where people do that. so now you ridicule somebody because they sing that off key? that's this chicago style politics. >> go ahead. >> having dispute that, and i don't dispute what you said at all, and many people wouldn't, is romney a victim of his own savagery. when i was running around the political race, whether he admits to knowing it or not, he

was absolutely brutalizing his opponents. certainly far more than anything i have seen in british politics. i was stunned. i'm not sure you can do that campaign and then stand back and go, oh, come on, you're not being fair to me, can you? >> well your point is made well this respect. probably not complain about it. let other people, let people like me and others make that judgment. as perfectly accurate. i will say, in all fairness, the attacks on john kerry and the swift motors back in n that campaign is something i did not approve of. >> and you, yourself, were the victim of some horrendous smear campaigns. which is why i'm interested. calling you apparently possibly a felon was even worse. >> someone committed -- you know, committed a crime that would put them in jail if they were guilty? but that's just an example. look, there is going to be, i guarantee, this is going to be

the roughest toughest campaign that i have ever observed. it is already that way. and so one of the unfortunate aspects of this is that it makes voters even cenacle and drives the campaign. >> we will come back to that. >> this is why i believe romney will eventually win. >> let's take a break. let's talk about syria, which has blown up again today. and also michele bachmann, who have you been ripping into. and people on both sides of the political divide.

>> it is more essential than ever that the united states and international community continue to work together through the united nations, through whatever possible vehicles we have to bring additional pressure on assad to step down. and to allow for a peaceful transition of government there in syria. >> we just heard there, leon panetta, talking about syria. syria has blown up again today. it's never been worse. you've seen again, russia and china, vetoing an attempt by united nations to increase sanctions on syria. it's a pretty depressing picture. 17,000 people we think now have been killed. the killing is escalating. what should be done about this? >> what we should have done a long time ago, was join with other nations and set up a safe zone and together, provide arms and equipment to the resistance fighters who are being

massacred. it is not surprising that again a resolution failed in the united nations. it is really a sad spectacle to see the united states of america policies and actions dictated by the u.n. security council, where russia and china exercise a veto. we didn't do that when we went to kosovo to save muslims. it is a total failure of american leadership. if america would lead, with other countries, and i do not mean american boots on the ground, we could bring the assad regime down. now, everybody says assad regime will fail. i agree with that. but it's been 17 months of slaughter. >> the best point i've seen you make, if you don't mind me jumping in there is bosnia. i was impressed in reading this. you met a guy in bosnia and met him in a turkish refugee camp for syrians.

and he said to you, i can't believe this is happening again. because the parallels are very, very similar. and of course then, bill clinton, democratic president, decided to do something. we now have another democratic president, similar situation, is it time that president obama did something? >> yes. and one of the sad aspect of this, he doesn't even speak up on these people's behalf. have we seen at all from him in the oval office saying what's going on in syria today is terrible? they set up torcher centers, a matter of their policy and indoctrination is to gang rape young women and kill kids in front of their parent. i met them in refugee camp, freshly wounded young men, defectors from their army who said their instruction and orders were to do this torture and rape and murder. and yet, you mentioned bill clinton.

bill clinton also went to bosnia, as you know, kosovo. he said his greatest regret, president clinton, was not intervening in rwanda where some 800,000 people were killed. it cries out for american leadership. when i see the secretary of defense make comments like you just made, i've been hearing those same comments for 17 months while the massacre goes on. and these countries in the region, some are helping already. but it cries out for american -- >> if you were president. if you won the last election, what would you be doing now in terms of direct military intervention? >> with the knowledge that russians and chinese are probably going to hamper, hamstring any effort by the united nations, i would talk with the willing. saudi arabia, gulf states, other states. even libya is willing to help out now after their experience. and the turks. and work together. a coalition where we would set up this safe zone and we would be supplying and equipping the

resistance forces and giving them the aid that they need. the long they're lasts, the more brutal, the more massacres, the more brutality and the more likelihood that this extremist elements enter in, the more likelihood that chemical weapons stockpiles that assad has, gets in the wrong hands or even may be used. so it is in our interest. and finally, one of our generals, head of central command, said it would be the greatest blow to iran in 25 years, because of its effect on lebanon, hezbollah, et cetera. and iranians are on the ground. and the thing that makes me so sad, when we hear this from secretary of state, who i admire and leon panetta, it is not a fair fight. arms are coming from russia. they establish editor tour centers.

why can't we help these people and frankly, i have to be honest with you, there are people on the right of my party, same ones who passed a resolution through the house of representatives pa that we shouldn't do anything about libya. who just had a fair election where a moderate was overwhelming majority of the votes. >> is part of the problem that the -- i would say the majority of american people, from what i sense, haven't really understood what is happening in syria? because unlike say, egypt, consider that rea square, every night, you saw the guys on horse back, rampaging around, attacking people, the image was so stark, that people could relate it it in america and began it demand that something happen. i'm not sensing that demand from the american people. they are like, you know what, it is happening there. we have bigger problems at loam. >> first of all, i agree with that. but i would point out that it requires leadership to tell the

american people what's going on. we didn't have nearly the coverage, frankly, in kossovo that we have on this. so it requires american leadership to inform the american people. and second of all, it is a situation that the united states, the population, unless their attention is directed to it, it is jobs and the economy. they are war weary from iraq and afghanistan. i understand that. so it requires american leadership and to tell the american people, the american people are the best people in the world, british as well. we believe, we believe that america has a special role to play in the world. we believe in american exceptionalism. and unfortunately, i don't think president obama does. >> one of the problems is people say there is no real dialogue between republicans and democrats as there used to be. i want to come back and talk about the state of washington

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let's talk washington. because there's a sense that has never been more pureile, pathetic, nothing is getting done, everyone in washington should grow up a bit. what do you say to that charge? >> i say that's true, but i also think there is a variety of reasons, including a polarization amongst the american people. it is always exacerbated by people who are in totally safe seats, as you know. and the economy, difficulties have exacerbated that. i have to put a lot of blame on republicans and democrats but i would also argue that perhaps the president of the united states could have done, like bill clinton did, after the democrats suffered defeat in election, he called bob dole and newt gingrich over and they did reformed welfare. they made some agreements. i would love it see the president, maybe now it's too late, until after the election,

if he is re-elected, to call republicans and democrats together. if romney is elected, call republicans and democrats together. you are seeing the rise of the independent voter in this country. i don't know exactly what is going to happen. but the dissatisfaction with both parties is palpable. >> you have been very vocal about fund-raising. for parties of candidates. i interviewed justice scalia last night and he was fascinating. he said under freedom of speech, the power to raise as much money as you want. to express your freedom of speech. what do you think of that? >> i think that it's very unique interpretation of the real world, to say that money is speech. very brief anecdote. when jack kennedy assembled his candidate after he was elected and it was the best and bright nest america. and they went to lindon johnson and they said, what do you think of this.

the most brave people in the world. he said, i just wish one of them would have run for county sheriff. i just wish one of these five would have run for county sheriff. when sandra day o'connor and justice rehnquist were on the supreme court, they came it a different conclusion. money does corrupt. money is a corrupting factor in politics and there's thousands of examples of it. this supreme court in their ivory tower, somehow believes that all we need to do is let everything be unleashed. and now we are seeing clearly, money in campaigns, the likes of which we have never seen. >> it is unbelievable and seems to be unstoppable and figures are getting ever more outrageous. and it will get to the stage where people can literally buy an election. we see a direct correlation between the money you have available, the television spin you have at your disposable to blow away your opponent and on the power of the media you can buy. >> i promise you, there will be scandals and there will be major

scandals. there is too much money washing around for there not to be major scandals. if you think water gate was big. if you think abe em off was big, wait until you see what happens in this thing. >> if that's the case, why are so many republicans involved in the ad. what is the fundamental principle that you object to. >> the fundamental principle is that it does not rain in any way of the labor unions. there with a as story in the washington post they were involved in $4.4 billion of activity. they take union members dues without their permission. and put them into various campaigns. one of the guy that was head of the service employee's union in the 2008 campaign borrowed $200 million to spend for the obama campaign. that's not right. so there's got to be a general reining in on both sides. a prohibition on unions using

members' dues without permission would be two of the fundamental principles. >> if the unions put themselves under the scrutiny -- >> yes -- >> you would sign up for it. >> absolutely. unfortunately this act we voted on has no impact of labor union activities. >> people say this week, after they watched you yesterday, railing in against michele bachmann, we've got john mccain back. this is the guy we love most. because he is not just having a go of the president. he is taking on his own on the point of principle that everyone agrees with, this is completely out of line what she did. what motivated you to do that. and how do you feel when you hear people say, we've got the real john mccain. >> i say, i never left. but piers, the point is, that i know her. i know her from traveling with her. i know her reputation.

i know the great story that we love. the immigrant who comes, to our country, and does so well. and it was really unfair to do what was done to her. but it wasn't -- whether it was five members of congress, by the way, not just michele bachmann. and it is not so much that i'm attacking them as it is defending her and also i hope that this sends a message to other people on both right and left that we shouldn't attack people's character unfairly. >> would you like michele bachmann it apologize? >> i don't know. >> to abedin in particular. >> i think she is in a very uncomfortable position right now, obviously. there was no substance to this allegation that she got from this organization, whose head, by the way, i've known many years. frank, i've known many years, he is a friend. but what they did is wrong. >> what does this say about the state of moltin politics.

>> we just had a sheriff, of maricopa county again, who has taken it upon himself to prove that president obama was not born in the united states of america. need i say more? >> i think you need say one more thing, what does it tell you about the state of politics? >> it's crazy. it stokes the fires of extremism and the passions of people that really is very unfair. so it is unto us to try to steer things into a more rational behavior and thought. but this is still the greatest nation in the world. still the best people in the world. still the most innovative nation in the world. when i get depressed, i get out of this town and go home and go to different places in america. i was in fargo, north dakota not too long ago. what a great experience. had trouble understanding them. you betcha. you betcha. you betcha. yah, yah, yah. wonderful people, wonderful people. >> let's take a final break. i want to talk to you about

family. and about vietnam and the lessons that you learned personally from that extraordinary experience that you had out there. >> sure.

what goes through the mind of a wife in this situation? >> it is day by day. you get through -- with 24 hours news cycle the way it is now, you are forced into a situation where you have to be on absolutely on tap at every minute of the day. so i not only do i understand how tiring this is for them, but also how fun it can be. >> the senator, you heard with a your wife had to say. by the way, a magnificent woman, if you don't mind me saying. incredibly impressive. >> thank you, very much. >> but this campaigning that the romneys are going through, it is torturously, enduresing testing, but also great fun. is that your memory of it? >> yeah, it's exhilarating. i have to tell you in all honesty, i knew after the stock market crashed and the economy was in the tank, i flew that there were very long odds. but at the same time, the friendships that the

experience -- look, i'm a guy that took fifth from the bottom of his class at the naval academy. if you would have told my old company officer, when i graduated that john mccain would be running for president of united states, he would have thought there would have been some drugs in use. i am the luckiest guy you will ever interview of all the thousands of people you have interviewed. i'm the most fortunate person. i've had the fullest life. i've had the greatest friendships. those guys that i was in prison with in vietnam that i know and love, everyday one of them calls me up. it is a -- i've had the best life. and when i lost, you know, you can either start feeling real sorry for yourself or just be proud that you were able to o do what you were doing. and move forward. and that's what i -- i keep telling myself. now that isn't always the case. and i wallow in self pity from time to time. it makes you feel good. but over all, i've realized how lucky i am.

and i have just -- i truly had the most remarkable life when even i look back on it. >> they say you lose a hundred percent of the gambles and risks you never take. >> exactly. >> you have always been a maverick. it's always been this thing attached -- what i always admired about you. when you took a big roll of the dice with sarah palin, and that's what it was. it could have been a success that drove to you triumph, or an success. do you actually regret, in reality, if you are honest, do you look in the mirror and regret at least going for it. >> oh, no, listen. i think that sarah palin, and i know that she inveg rated our campaign. she galvanized our base. she is a -- she and her husband and family are wonderful people. i'm very proud to have them as my friends. and i think that she, at the end of the day, was the right

choice. i really believe that. >> it could have worked? >> well, it's not that it could or couldn't have. i really believe that honestly, the day that -- we were three points up the day the stock market went down 700 points. at the end of that day, we were like five points down. i understand that. i understand why people would -- and you have to give great credit to president obama. he ran a great campaign. hope and change. i don't know what's happened to that. but he -- he galvanized african-american voters. and low income people. you have to give him credit also. >> in the movie game changers, i watched it, and i enjoyed it as a form of entertainment and politics, you swear a lot. your character. your wife said to me, he doesn't swear that much. >> no, i don't. and i didn't see the movie. but i was told that that was the case, that i used the f word all the time. i don't. i just don't.

i don't know why they felt that to be necessary. >> when you were in vietnam and you went through this five or six years of absolute hell, repeated tortures, beatings and so on, what did you learn about yourself that has now dictated the way you are as a politician? >> i was proud of my ability to resist all kinds of pressures from my captors. both mental and physical. but i also recognize that i had limitations because at one point, after sufficient physical extended mistreatment, i broke and signed a confession. so i realized that i wasn't the tohest -- i wasn't john wayne mccain as some used to call me in my earlier days. so i think it made me aware that all of us have our -- not failings but vulnerabilities and sometimes we don't always do

what we would like to do. but the point is, pick yourself up as i did after that, go right back into the arena with him. >> what has been the greatest moment of your life? if i could relive, outside of marriage and children, if i could have the power to let you relive five minutes of your life, what would you do? >> probably the day i left prison. that i left with all of my comrades. a couple years earlier, they offered know go home early and i am so glad that i did not leave my comrades behind. >> great thing. thank you. dent wait so long next time. >> absolutely. you heard what john mccain said about syria. next i will ask general george casey if u.s. forces should step in. ♪ i want to go

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that is the consequence of the third veto by our colleagues on the council today. >> taking aim at russia and china, u.s. ambassador susan rice at the u.n. the fighting in syria is intensifying with deadly battles now waged in the capitol. is it time for america to step in and use force against assad. former chief of staff general george casey. general, welcome. >> thank you. >> i spoke to senator mccain earlier. he said it is time for obama to react. he said it is time for safe zone, quit the resistance, to do something. do you agree with him? >> i don't disagree with that at all. you know, three strikes and you're out. that's the third te they've gone to the united nations. i think we have done everything we can to get russia and china to support this. it seems clear to me that they are not going to. but i also agree very much, that if f we act, we need to act with a coalition. given the background of

everything else we have going on in the middle east. we shouldn't act unilaterally. >> what people say, is because china and russia, clearly huge powers in the world, have dug their heels in. they, if you talk to them, say we don't trust this opposition. we think many of them may be terrorists. some of them may have links to al qaeda and so on. can we trust the opposition rebels? do they have a point? >> i don't think we know enough about the opposition. yet. and it's not likely for sure. there is a population of about 6 billion people. syria's 20 million people. that population in libya is fairly homo genius and in syria you have sectarian differences. where you have the minority all white regime that has been governing and repressing 75% sunni for decades. >> still 70% of the military is

obviously a vital weapon for him, you're a military man, at what stage do we reach a tipping point. or when will the military turn on assad? >> that's an interesting point. i was recently in egypt and tunisia and in both of these countries, it was the military siding with the people that allowed "the revolution" to proceed. assad seems to have much better hold over his military than the leaderships of the other countries had. so i don't know what would cause that to tip. i suspect though that military would have to perceive that assad wasn't going to win. >> we saw an incident in bulgaria, a bus bombing, five israeli tourist, in bulgaria, and bus driver were all killed. russia is blaming iran as they have many times in recent months in incidents. this is a dangerous time. how realistic is it that iran may be putting on these kind of

incidents, these terrorist attacks? and what should be done about it? >> yeah. i saw that attack as an indicator of what i see as the era that we're in. i've been calling it for years an era of persistent conflict. where there is protracted confrontation between states and nonstate actors. >> do you think syria has chemical weapons? people are saying, look, they've definitely got chemical weapons. we heard all this about saddam hussein and when we went to war, it turned out he didn't have it. he may have at one point, but he didn't when we went to war. america can't risk that pretext if it isn't sure. >> i think we have more information about syria chemical weapon stocks, to include their locations. and i think that the chemical threat coming out of there is in fact real. the other significant threat that makes it very different than libya, is the al qaeda

threat. and you mentioned that pip watched in iraq for years, a facilitation network operated by al qaeda that brought suicide bombers through syria into iraq. so al qaeda is there now. it is not a question. they are there now. they have a network and that is a significant factor. >> when you see tunisia and egypt, people look to the arab spring with great hope, and then came the kind of cynicism, despondent, oh, it is not going to work out. what's the reality? did you feel optimism? >> i did come away heartened. especially with egypt and tunisia with what is going on and other parts of the middle east like syria. they have difficult days ahead of them as they try to come to grips with at least two fund manically different views for the future direction of both those countries. but the good news is, if i could, is they are working it through the political and judicial process.

>> so there's a democratic system that's working? >> no, i wouldn't say that. they are building a democratic system over time. >> let's turn to one final matter. since you retired, you are involved in helping veterans. very disturbing statistic about the instance of suicide in the military. suicide spiked to average of one a day american servicemen and women killing themselves, the highest rate of a decade in afghan and iran. >> this is an issue that we in the military have been working hard for years. we have studied it. we have started $50 million study through mental health. we did this several years ago to try to get into it. we have increased the number of mental health advisors. we have significant programs since 2007 to reduce stigma of getting mental health treatment when have you a problem. when you come right down to it, you can't know what is going on

inside someone else's head. and as we have looked at it, we have analyzed the data on people who committed suicide, and problems seem to go back it relationship problems, financial problems. and they are usually exacerbated by drug and alcohol abuse. it is a huge, huge challenge. and not just a challenge for the -- >> and a long time pressure of active service. >> i can't imagine that the increased pressures of repeated deployments to combat hasn't had an impact. i saw something the other day that said suicide average suicide rate in the united states is 24 for iraq/afghanistan veterans, it is like 38. so there has to be an impact. but if i could, the other significant challenge the veterans have is unemployment. and i've seen statistics that basically if you're an

iraq/afghanistan veteran, your unemployment rate is about 3% higher than the national average. if you are 18 to 24-year-olds, it pushes up to 30%. we did k do better than that for our veterans. >> we can. general, thank you. >> thank you, piers. next, the backlash over the new yahoo!'s chief decision to have baby. how disgraceful. [ male announcer ] break the grip of back or arthritis pain

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for tonight, only in america, having a baby and heading a company. on monday night, the new boss of tech giant yahoo! joined the ranks of 20 women ceos in the fortune 500. the 37-year-old executive had more reason to celebrate. she also revealed she was pregnant. she and her husband are expecting their first child, a boy, in october. but not everybody shared this additional joy. yahoo! stock rose higher then dropped just. even the media focused on her impending baby story. wall street falling with the men's locker room chatter that ms. mayer would be too distracted with diapers to concentrate on her new job to be

to revive yahoo!'s fortunes. hear what brian sullivan said about it on msnbc. >> marissa mayer is 37. she is pregnant so she is -- unfortunately she says she will work through maternity leave. yahoo! has been in trouble for years. my advice, take time off, get your baby, raise the kid for a little bit, then work on the company when you can. >> what a load of sexist patronizing clab trab. she responded by saying, i understand the rhythm of things. i'm only a few weeks along and i will work throughout it just like many women do these days, either because they have to or want to and they do it successfully too. some spend 18 hours changing corporate office desks, never see their families or indeed the real world. where did that get america in the last decade? yes, into the worst financial crisis in history. i suspect the distraction