surprising nutrition tips from our fitness guru. it involves chocolate. that's good news. also, lynyrd skynyrd is in the studio. we'll talk to them about their new album and tour. "your money" starts right now. you are not happy. you're taking it out on the u.s. economy. welcome to "your money." the u.s. economy is barely growing. now this is about gdp. don't change the channel. gdp, gross domestic product is important. it is the broadest measure of the value of everything we produce as an economy. and as those bars go up, we feel better. now this week we learned that in april, may and june the u.s. economy grew at a rate of just 1.7%. that means as an economy, we produce 1.7% more value than we did in the same period a year ago. that and $4 will get you a cup of coffee. what that doesn't tell you or me

is how americans are feeling about the economy and how you're feeling decides whether or not this economy is going to get weaker or stronger. so i have compiled some numbers on the five economic indicators that have the greatest effect on you. think about this as the real feel of the economy. you can read about it in my column in the current issue of "money m "money" magazine. i've used government numbers to score economic performance in that time between one and ten. one indicates the worst level that that indicator has been at over the last 30 years. ten is the best. so take a look at where we stand right now on the things that you feel. unemployment, above 8%, 4.3 on the scale. personal income, adjusted for inflation at the low end. it's a 1.5 on the scale. because median wages fell last year. that's what happens when too many people are out of work pushing demand for your services down making your wages drop. personal savings, the thing that

saves you and your family and your house, not that good either right now. i can't tell whether that's because you're not trying to save or whether low interest rates are discouraging from you saving. home price appreciation. home values are finally bottoming out. it is still a 3 1/2 on the scale. there is one very bright spot in the measures. something called industrial production. the increase in what the economy physically produces -- oil, buildings, airplanes, the stuff that makes you feel like the economy is chugging along the busy highways, cranes and smokestacks. well this measure currently scores 7.6 compared to where it's been over the past 30 years. but even that's not cause for celebration because manufacturing is such a small part of america's economy. much smaller than it was 30 years ago. so the average score, the real feel on the economy if all of these five indicators, well, a measly four out of ten. that is bad given that we're

three years out of a recession. but this four is going to seem pretty good if we go into another recession and that could happen if washington fails to act to avert the so-called fiscal cliff very soon. we may be headed lower than this. so did we hear any of that from republicans during the party convention last week in tampa bay? no. we heard speeches. we saw platform about bringing back the gold standard, defining marriage as being between a man and a woman. we did hear about cutting taxes and cutting entitlements. what about jobs? nothing is more important to our economic recovery than job creation. i would have thought that's the main thing they talked about. well, in fact, thankfully mitt romney did talk about that. >> unlike the president, i have a plan to create 12 million new jobs. >> are you kidding me? i'll wear a dress for a week if

after four years we have averaged a quarter million jobs per month. that is an average. 250,000 jobs a month every month for 48 months in a row. it is not impossible. my next guest is going tell you it's possible much it's possible. but it is highly unlikely. and while i applaud big thinking, there is a fine line between big thinking and saying things so people will vote for you. and the romney camp knows that. joining me to discuss that remarkable and historic disconnect between the republican party and what is going on in america is stephen moore. he is editorial writer at the "wall street journal." he was at the convention. stephen, if i wanted to insure that i was not lying to the american people or making promise that's are not impossible to fulfill but are highly unlikely, like the promise of 12 million jobs over four years which is at best a cynical effort to win votes by duping unsuspecting voters and

at worst a lie, what would i really have to say to do -- to say and do to level with them? >> i'm going to hold you to what you just said. i want to see you wear that dress four years from now and a wig with it. look, i think it is a grandiose promise. that's what presidential candidates do. barack obama said he was going to cut the deficit in half and create millions of jobs. candidates make the promises. sometimes they come true. sometimes they don't. but i think it's unfair to say that he doesn't have a plan. does he have this tax reduction plan to restructure the tax system, make it more pro growth. he has a plan to cut spending to bring the deficit down. i think his energy policy of more production means more oil and gas jobs here in the u.s. so i think it's achievable. by the way, i want to say. this i think it's a good thing when these presidential candidates, and i hope barack obama does it too, shoot a target you can shoot for. let's shoot for 12 million jobs.

>> why don't we shoot for 20 million or 30 million? the point is leveling with them -- you know, the economists which is a rementively economically conservative publication like the one that you do work for called mitt romney's 59-point plan like "50 shades of grey" without the sex. it needs detail. can you tell me how you can get to 12 million jobs, i might believe that. in the end we'll hear from alan simpson later on in the show. the market will judge whether there is the case. so let's bring in our friend, the ceo at pimpco, the world's largest bond investor. let's give the mitt romney camp the benefit of the doubt for a mement moment on creating 12 million jobs in four years, 250,000 jobs a month. if that comes to pass, i'll wear a dress for a week. what would have to suddenly change in the economy that we are in, the 1.7% growth economy to accommodate the creation of a

quarter million jobs a month? >> a lot. a lot would have to change, ali. i agree that it's great that jobs are being put as an issue. g agree with stephen, let's have a target. but right now that target while desirable is not feasible. so what do we need to see? first and foremost, comprehensive structural reforms. that means better labor markets, better infrastructure and fiscal reform including tax reform. second issue, we need up front stimul stimulus. third issue, we need better safety nets. we need to better put our citizens in this structural transition. finally, the u.s. thooz has to the global leadership. we're getting head winds, not tail winds. and so far romney's platform doesn't get close to taking on this process. >> that's interesting.

let's bring stephen back in. if the world were not given the u.s. tail winds -- headwinds, if we had tail winds, then this is possible. a number of conservatives pointed out to me and i'll have another one later in the show, a lot of conservatives on the show. a lot of people said we have done this in the past. we had this successful economic growth. we've had that kind of job creation. >> that's right. >> but that requires a little runway. that requires a little tail wend. that requires things going your way with the highly specific plan. even you will admit we are not in that place right now. >> well, we're not. you know, i was thinking about this, preparing for this segment. i looked at the jobs numbers in the '80s and '90s under ronald reagan and democratic president of bill clinton. we created nearly 40 million jobs over that 18-year expansion. that is a pretty darn good number. i think what mitt romney is saying is we can do that again.

it is true 12 million jobs, 250,000 jbz a month obs a montht we're still 4.5 million jobs short of where we were in 2007, ali. adjust a third of that pick up in jobs that mitt romney is talking about is just getting back to where we started from. i think it can happen. i agree with both of you. you need an ambitious economic plan. and one last thing. i'm more of a growth hawk than a deficit reduction hawk. that is missing from the republican convention. tell us how you're going to create the jobs. how are we going to get that 4% growth rate? if you do that, the deficit comes down. >> sure. >> the deficit comes down when you put people to work. >> this is where we all agree. growth will solve a lot of the problems. how we get there remains the question. mohammed, always a pleasure to talk you to and stephen moore, great to see you as well. next, a man with a plan but not a nomination. former republican presidential

candidate john huntsman had a clear plan. he dropped out of the race in january. he said the gop lost its way. i'll ask him about the party's identity crisis next. [ male announcer ] now you can swipe... scroll... tap... pinch... and zoom... in your car. introducing the all-new cadillac xts with cue. ♪ don't worry. we haven't forgotten, you still like things to push. [ engine revs ] the all-new cadillac xts has arrived, and it's bringing the future forward. now we need a little bit more... a little bit more vanilla? this is great! [ male announcer ] at humana, we believe there's never been a better time to share your passions because the results...

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to keep those wheels turning. from business loans to cash management, we want to be your partner moving forward. so switch to regions. and let's get going. together. smaller, less invasive, less intrusive government, lower taxes, balanced budgets. these are traditional conservative values. the gop has become a party that appears to give an unnaturally large voice to social conservatives, feels exclusive and at times has championed the idea that compromises with those who don't share your views is a dirty word. all of this while there is a chance the u.s. could slip into another recession again. now that's not just frustrating to voters. it's frustrating to real social and fiscal conservatives like former utah governor john huntsman who while having one of

the strongest economic plans of all of the republican candidates for president, never polled into the double digits nationally. "the wall street journal" called his economic plan as impressive as any to datein the gop presidential field and certainly better than what we've seen from the frontrunners. what's more, he's also served as u.s. ambassador to china before entering the race. china is the biggest economic competitor but many in the gop ignored how that experience could help our troubled economy. instead, focusing on the fact that he served under president obama. he took a job under a democratic president and that maybe he didn't say crazy things. john huntsman joins me now. pleasure to see you, governor huntsman. many people looked to you as somebody who has fiscally conservative but have views that

seem to be in sifrync with creag economic growth. why didn't it work? >> well, i'd have to say it was very restive republican base. far more than i'd ever seen before. if you cross a partisan divide as i've done to serve a democratic president, that isn't always seen as a good move if you're going to run for higher office. in the old days, it was seen as something patriotic, something that was akin to putting your country before party which is what i believe in personally. in the early primary phases of presidential politics, that is not always looked upon favorably. i think a lot of the ideas that i brought to the forefront that were tied back to what i had done as governor, i thought i'm going to run for president. want to make sure that i got a track record as governor that speaks to what -- >> where you cut deficits? >> we addressed immigration in utah. >> we created a flat tax, for

example. we had the number one jobs related economy in the country. we did an alliance with higher education in terms of making the most of our brain power in our state. we reformed immigration. nobody else would at the federal level. all of the things that speak to growth and competitiveness is what we focused on. the country is just like a state. the population is larger. the needs are the same. we have to speak to the marketplace in way that's allow us to create jobs, expand the base and we're never going to be able to pay the bills going forward or take care of all of those legitimate needs we have on the social program side until we can expand this economy. >> you didn't end up going to tampa to the convention. i know -- i believe your daughters did. somebody else did. i want to bring in kathleen parker, good friend of mine who did attend the republican national convention. she's still there. kathleen, i have -- it's great to see you. i pointed my finger at a lot of

politicians on this show recently. who do you blame for this disconnect? governor huntsman calls it a restive republican base. who do you blame for this disconnect between some of the nonsense that is coming out of the republican party and some of the real problems that need to be solved in this country that the republican party could be kpet b competitive about solving? >> it's hard to put your finger on one person or one group. obviously, the social conservatives are determined to have their message heard over the economic message that governor romney and paul ryan are trying to get through to the people. and by the way, this is a very frustrating thing for a lot of people within the republican party including and especially women who are -- who feel like some of the men in their midst are going out of their way to be aggressively hostile to women. and that's not to say, excuse me, that's not to say that a lot of republican women aren't necessarily going for the philosophies, for example, the

pro-life positions. but they do feel there needs to be room in the party for differences of opinion. and when you are aggressively building a platform, for example, that declares, you know, life in terms of no exception for incest or rape, things like that, women can't identify with that even if they're pro-life. there's a point where you have to say, look, we have differences of opinion. we are a big party. we have big issues and serious concerns. and these kinds of issues are overshadowing and blocking and distracting from the very message that the nominee wants to get across. it's so interesting. the narrative of the democratic party has advanced. it is now the narrative that republican party is also advancing. with the exception, i should say, of a nominee himself. i don't think he cares one witt about this conversation and doesn't want to have it. >> i heard that. >> it won't be discussed. >> i heard that from people. i heard that from women who say

very frustrated with the platform. frustrated with the todd akins of the world. mitt romney is part of that. how do you reconcile this very key message that republicans want to put forward and fiscal conservatives put forward that government get out of my way so that the economy can do well except government gets in the way when it comes to manufacture the social issues? >> you either believe the government stays out you have your personal business or you don't. you conditioned hand pick and choose which ones the government is going to intervene on. that's why republicans lost a lot of women support both within and without the party. some of the women i spoke to for recent piece i wrote for "newsweek" magazine specifically said, you know, we feel like these people are no longer on our team. they're no longer listening to us. and women within the republican party and the congress and

senate are actually now organizing to have their voices heard and to try to offer some balance to the perception that the republican party is anti-woman. >> we're going to talk a little bit about how to broad than message and that base in the face of the scathing criticism. governor, stay right here. kathleen, great to see you. the column is remarkable read. very insightful. i appreciate it. kathleen parker from the republican national convention. okay, up next, why the word bipartisanship is a campaign killer on the path to the presidency. [ male announcer ] citi turns 200 this year.

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john huntsman is a two term republican governor from utah. he didn't attend the republican national convention this week because he thinks his party has lost its way. huntsman entered the race last june with ideas to turn this economy around. a resume to back them up and a tone of compromise for the greater good of the country. but in this republican party reaching across the aisle, setting aside some differences

for the good of the country is a no-win situation. john huntsman rejoins me now. why are you not -- tell me many your words. i just characterized it. why didn't you go to tampa? >> governor romney's show. it ought to be. he earned it. he deserves it. and his team is there. they're doing their thing. that's the way it ought to be. i've been to every convention almost with the exception of maybe one since 1984 when i was a reagan delegate. i have to tell you, increasingly when you have a party that lacks inclusiveness that, is not focused on real solutions and delivering the bread and butter bottom line issues that american people are looking for, that lacks the sense of optimism and the big picture strategic thinking about america's role in the world, all of that is so desperately needed today. and my comment when asked is as soon as my party -- as i know it will -- returns to that sense of inclusiveness, that big bold

confident optimistic message about broadening the tent and our role in the world which is au always been a confident role, we don't articulate messages based on fear. we articulate messages based on opportunity. >> all the messages have been about fear and why the other guy is worse. we really have. look, i know this has been going on for years. i know these are effective techniques and campaign strategists have mastered that. it almost seems like you ran a campaign absent of those cynical strategists and didn't get you anywhere. >> lesson learned. if i had to do it over again, i'd do it the same way because that's who i am. >> then you'd lose again. so when you say and kathleen says -- >> you probably answered whether i would environment doer that again. >> that's the sad part. i spoke to a woman this week, a pro-choice republican woman who used to have to go to the conventions with bodyguards and she says she measures success she didn't have to this time. i say why do you bother? why do you go back? she said because it's my party

first. i don't want these fringe issues taking over my party. so in some ways you not being engaged or you not running again says they won. >> well, no announcements here, obviously. but what we must do, we must expand participation in the party. we've got to figure out somehow, some way what to do about highly exclusionary early caucuses and primary events. so if you got a fraction of the population turning out in the early states at the exclusion of the majority who would otherwise feel differently about the issues, that's not our democracy in action. and i'm here to tell that you if we can break open the level of participation by people by going to direct primaries, by somehow making it easier for people to vote, here we live in a world of high technology. everything is on an ipad. everything is done on ipad except voting. it still takes you a week to register at the county commissioner's office. we should be taking the ability to participate in our democracy

directly to the people. and saying forget about the caucus process. forget about the exclusionary meetings that tend, i think, to gum up our democracy. let's move to direct primaries. let the candidates speak out on the issues. i'm also of the opinion that the super packs are destroying the politics. >> you're a man of the world. you've seen other countries where they have campaign limits in terms of the time can you campaign and the money can you spend. yet, people manage to get lekt -- elected. why can't america do that? >> we can if we set our sights on it. it's all part of addressing the trust deficit. so we have a fiscal deficit to be sure. we have a trust deficit, too. and it's a lot of young people in particular in this country who are losing faith in the direction of their democracy. and they're doing so because too much money, its incumbents always get re-elected, and the lobbyists play too big of a role

in the process. >> good to see you. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. it's a pleasure. next, u.s. government debt continues to spiral out of control and washington needs to do something now. >> simpson bowls. >> i can not tell you how many republicans and democrats have gone to the alter of bowls-simpsons. >> i'll speak with the architect of the plan that both sides of the aisle are talking about but nobody's doing anything about. that's next on "your money." how can we save these young people's lives? as a police chief, i have an opportunity to affect what happens in a major city. if you want to make a difference, you have to have the right education. university of phoenix opened the door. my name is james craig, i am committed to making a difference, and i am a phoenix. visit phoenix.edu to find the program that's right for you. enroll now. ♪

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in 2012 alone, the deficit is projected to be $1.1 trillion. to put that in perspective, if you spent $1 million a day, it would take you 3,000 years to reach that number. now this isn't the deficit. the deficit is the yearly budget short fall. the debt is the accumulation of all the deficits and the interest owed on it. america's debt is upward of $15

trillion. you are going to continue to hear calls from everybody who is running for office for a bipartisan plan to tackle the debt. except we have one. it is called simpson bowls. it is nearly two years old. it was ordered by president obama. it was called the national commission on fiscal responsibility and reform. it was made up of 12 members of congress appointed by their party leaders. it also included six nonelected officials appointed by president obama. the first one was allen simpson, former republican senator from wyoming and erskine bowles who used to be the chief of staff to president clinton. now it put everything, everything on the table and the result was a truly bipartisan plan to reduce america's debt by $4 trillion over ten years through spending cuts and tax reform. now you can see that green line is sort of where our debt is going over the next decade.

and if the commission's proposals are fald thaollowed, the blue line. federal workers would have been subject to a three year pay freeze and the commission would also reduce the overall size of the government workforce through attrition. the comprehensive tax plan involved would lower personal income and corporate tax rates while broadening the base of people who pay taxes. capital gains and dividends would be taxed as ordinary income. now back door government spending for certain industries would also be removed. things like the government subsidies for the ethanol industry. a portion of the money raised there would go directly to paying down long-term debt. now as i said before on this show, health care is one of the fastest growing costs to the u.s. government. simpson bowles would establish a budget for health care spending and cap the amount that doctors

and insurance companies have to pay out in malpractice lawsuits. mandatory practices would be adopted from the private sector to streamline the federal workforce retirement programs, the post office, student loan subsidies and other government programs. social security would be reformed as well. among other things, simpson bowles races the retirement age from 65 to 69 by 2050 and asks those who earn more to contribute more. what about congressional negligence? laws would be established to make sure spending hurdles are met. penalizing congress if it fails to meet the goals. now in order for simpson-bowles to make its way to congress, it needed something called a super majority vote. that's 14 out of the 18 members had to approve. this was to assure that it had bipartisan approval. now here are the number of people who voted in favor of it. five republicans, five democrats and one independent.

seven who voted no included four democrats and all three house republicans including vice-presidential candidate paul ryan which is odd considering ryan's decision to take on president obama during the republican national convention this week. >> he created a new bipartisan debt commission. they came back with an urgent report. he thanked them. sent them on their way, and then did exactly nothing. >> i spoke with former senator allen simpson, the co-chair of the simpson-bowles commission. the first question i asked is if paul ryan's comments upset him. >> well, nothing much upsets me at this stage in life. i've seen it all. we went to ryan afterwards and camp. i said to them, look, did you vote against this because you were scared to death of grover and norquist that he would beat you over the head with a club while he is wandering the nerea

in their white robe? he said no. he said we voted against it because if you get rid of employer health care premiums, the employers are going to be stunned and look around and say what do we do now and they're going to bloat obama care further. they're going to take their people into the new health care plan. that was their response. that's good enough for me. he can explain himself. he had his reasons. look at durbin, gutsy guy. i mean durbin is the assistant leader. think what harry reid must have tried to do to him. good god, you're messing with precious medicare. >> we need that leadership. we need guts. >> sure. >> simpson-bowles is a token now that anybody talking about debt or deficit throws around. they actually like it. they say i like simpson-boi/bow. politicians are doing this. mitt romney's campaign said the plan mimics yours.

i don't think it z he wants to cut rates across the board. that's where the similarity ends. doesn't raise any revenue. do you agree with your fellow republicans who say we don't have a spending problem -- we don't have a revenue problem. we have a spending problem? >> sure. we also have a revenue problem. we've never had less revenue coming into the united states since the korean war. wake up. 15.2% of gdp is the revenue. it's historically been about 19 or 20. so you can't tax your way out of this baby. you can't cut spending your way out of this baby and you can't dream your way out of this baby. you got to get in and do all the heavy lifting. and they won't do it. they being everyone running for public office before november 6. between november 6 and december 31st will be a whirl pool of $5

to $7 trillion bucks floating around f you go too far, you throw it into recession. if you go too little, you throw it into recession. merry christmas. it's going to be a lot of fun from now until december 31st. >> a pleasure to hear your straight talk, as always. thanks for joining me. >> sounds like a horse whisperer. >> fix the debt is the website. go to it if you want more information on the simpson/bowles plan or if you would like to sign senator simpson's petition calling on congress to pass a comprehensive long-term plan by july 4th, 2013. while you're online, visit cnn's america's debt challenge page to see the coverage of this critical issue. next, former labor second robert reich says the gop's economic plan is a disaster that will actually cost millions of jobs, not create them. you know why i sell tools? tools are uncomplicated.

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mitt romney has not provided much detail for his 59-point economic plan. the economist refers to it as 50 shades of grey without the sex. but his running mate paul ryan has one of his own and he has outlined a little bit more. former labor secretary robert reich, you see him here, has

served under president clinton and he thinks the paul ryan plan is a disaster. joining me now, robert reich, chancellor's professor of public policy at the university of california berkeley. he's also the author of a best-selling book "beyond outrage: what's has gone wrong with our economy and democracy and how to fix it" available in paper back on september 4th. he is a prolific writer to one of many books he has put out. bob, good to see you. thank you so much for being with us. you tweeted necessi eed me that. paul ryan echos mitt romney's ridiculous claim they would create 12 million jobs if four years if he lekted. the trick here, bob, you were labor secretary. the trick here is if that were true, then that would be a deciding factor for most people. they can provide 250,000 jobs per month on average for 48 months, that is a deal maker. now you say that paul ryan's

plan, the one that is more detailed and is out there, will lead to millions of job losses in the next two years because it would send america into that european style austerity trap. explain that please. >> yes. the ryan budget does incorporate the fiscal cliff in the sense that it requires massive cuts in spending right away. basically, next year and the year after and at a time when we have so much unemployment and we have so much underutilized capacity, that's what we don't know. that's what europe got in the problem with. when you cut that much, when you have so many people unemployed, that means more unemployment, less economic activity. and that in turn means that the ratio of your debt to the total economy is going to get worse and worse because your economy starts contracting. that's what europe is facing. that's what paul ryan is going to do to the united states if his plan is adopted. >> so people are probably tweeting right now to say robert

reich is a liberal. of course he's going to say that you can't cut things right now. but clearly our debt is a problem. our deficits are a problem. at some point we're going to have to cut spending. when is that point? >> i would suggest that we have a trigger built into the law, democrats and republicans both have to abide by. they build it into the law. that when unemployment gets down to 6% and we have growth at about 3%, that trigger means we have major severe cuts in spending and also tax increases to deal with the long term budget deficit. that means we can be back on the path of growth before we do the cutting. that's the proper sequence. this is a matter of sequencing. it's a matter of doing it in the right order. >> all right. bob reich, good to talk you to. thanks very much for joining us to day. robert reich is a professor of public policy at the uc berkeley. big numbers, big night. dueling debt clocks were center stage at the republican national

convention. mitt romney only said the word debt once in his speech. does he have a plan to dig us out and create those 12 million jobs in four years that he keeps talking about? we're going to ask one of his economic advisors. but because of business people like you, things are beginning to get rolling. and regions is here to help. making it easier with the expertise and service to keep those wheels turning. from business loans to cash management, we want to be your partner moving forward. so switch to regions. and let's get going. together. the economy needs manufacturing. machines, tools, people making stuff. companies have to invest in making things. infrastructure, construction, production. we need it now more than ever. chevron's putting more than $8 billion dollars back in the u.s. economy this year. in pipes, cement, steel, jobs, energy.

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the republican party is obsessed with the mounting debt in this country or at the very least talking about the mounting debt in this country. christine romans joins us now about this. you saw that debt clock. >> two ofthem. two of them. two of them at the republican national convention this week. two debt clocks. both of them keeping track. one of the lasting images of that convention, the two giant clocks counting down -- count be -- counting up america's debt. the other shows the total amount the government owes. it owes $16 trillion. you won't hear the republican backed policies that helped run up these clocks. here are official government

statistics, visualized by the center on budget and policy priorities. take a look at this. this is our debt. it is the size of our economy. right? look at this. this big chunk of debt here, these are the bush tax cuts right there. bush tax cuts. that much of the debt are the bush tax cuts. these are wars that began before this administration. right here this blue slice right here, this is the crisis. it is slamming the american economy. when growth stopped and in fact contracted, it added to all of this debt. you see this little thing right here, this little blue line? right there. that is t.a.r.p. fannie mae and freddy. those are the bailouts. this is the stimulus right now that so many conservatives hate. and this is all of this other debt that we were already piling up that's outside of this. if all this stands as is, the projection is by 2019 debt will account for more than 80% of our economy or nearly all the goods and services this country produces in one year without

these programs many of which were backed by republican lawmakers, we would be right down here at less than 20%. >> all right. i want to bring in kevin hasset, a senior fellow and director of economic studies at the american enterprise institute. as we say, kevin, we are on this show critiquing a lot of things that the democrats and the republicans have been doing and inviting a lot of republicans on to the show to set us straight. as christine just pointed out there was a focus on the convention on the ballooning national debt. was it fair to hammer the president and the democrats on that growing tab given what christine just described to us that a very, very large part of our debt and deficit in this country is a result of gop policies? >> well, i mean, it's a debt that's been built up over many years and of course, there are many policies that contributed to it, but if you look at the increase in the debt under american presidents, then in

post-war years president obama is way out in first place with something about 27% using the numbers you were looking at. second place was ronald reagan in about 14% and third place. and george w. bush, but the fact is that the debt increase, and in part because of the stimulus, and we call them the bush tax cuts. and the policy and that's somebody else's fault. they kept saying they were destroying the economy and they refused to let them expire because they knew tax hikes would hurt the economy. so i think that president obama most importantly dropped the bowles-simpson commission. we pushed debt because of all of the things that happened, the t.a.r.p. and the bailouts and all that kind of stuff. we pushed the debt to uncomfortably high levels and the academic literature says when it gets that high it's growth and something that you tacked about a lot and we didn't argue against it. that's why it's fair to attack this. >> i agree with you on that.

we spoke to alan simpson a few moments ago and we reminded everybody, that paul ryan who pointed out in his speech that president obama dropped simpson-bowles voted against it because it wasn't perfect. that wasn't the right thing to do. >> well, i mean, it wasn't up on capitol hill. they didn't submit it as a vote because president obama didn't really work with everybody on the hill to get a plan that people could come behind and support. you know, the fact is that what needs to happen is that you need to have a president that works with members of the other party, comes up with something that he says is going to be gold and then pushes it through congress. president obama hasn't done that. if you walk around into the buildings here in washington where you have economic staff like at the treasury, they're all idle. people say he's this policy wonk, but he never gets that engaged in policy. we've never had a point where the white house has said here ate bill that i've negotiated with paul ryan and the republicans. we've written it up at the

treasury and now i'll pass it through congress and no cherry picking, gentlemen. he's never done that. he's delegated the construction to people up on the hill and that hasn't worked because congress is broken. >> i keep bringing up what the economist, a generally conservative publication said about mitt romney's 59-point economic plan. he said it reads like "fifty shades of grey" without the sex. paul ryan has a more detailed economic plan and bob reich and some of our studies indicate that it could end up costing jobs rather than creating the 12 million jobs over four years they think you were party to writing. >> yea. i don't see how that can be. the fact is that we have this massive deficit and this massive debt and creates uncertainy and makes people unwary about investing into the future and that makes everybody want to locate their activity offshore. governor romney wants to get

ahead of the curve on those things and he's doing so in a balanced manner that broadens the base so it's not a big revenue reduction when it cuts the rate. so i think that having lower marginal rates and economic certainty because you're ahead of the curve on the deficit, i don't see how that could fail to produce jobs. is reich coming from saying higher marginal rates are going to -- >> i know you don't share information with the economic policy institute, paul ryan's plan, paul ryan, the vice presidential candidate, his plan may mean 1.3 million fewer jobs in 2014 and 2.3 million fewer in 2014 and we got the news from spain that they have 24% unemployment. the deeper you get into the austerity track at a time when people aren't spending money. that you get yourself into the trap where it's important that people don't spend money and what a lot of people don't remember is that cutting government spending means laying off government workers and more

people receiving government assistance. >> no, i think the real risk and it's where we are now that you can get into this debt spiral where you're on keynesian stimulus and not addressing the big problems that can move us forward. the bottom line is people listening at home know that if they save a little bit more this year and they have money in the bank and can have higher consumption in the future and the same is true in the country and they're taking the pennies that americans are saving so they can have a secure future and the government's borrowing that and spending it right away. so that as a nation we're not really saving for the future. if we don't have more assets to draw from in the future then we're not going have growth and create jobs. president obama's deficits are detroying capital formation in the u.s. and destroying jobs and governor romney has a proposal that would reverse that and i don't see how anybody that's a respectable economist could argue anything else? >> always a pleasure to have you on the show. >> he's a senior fellow and director of economic policy

studies at the american enterprise institute and an economic adviser to the mitt romney campaign. we've been hard on the gop in the show and i can hear you typing up the furious messages on twitter and facebook, before you hit send listen to what we'll be doing next week and i'll tell you about it after the break. d of battery more emergency workers trust in their maglites: duracell. one reason: duralock power preserve. it locks in power for up to 10 years in storage. guaranteed. so, whether it's 10 years' of life's sunny days... or... the occasional stormy one... trust goes a long way. duracell with duralock. trusted everywhere. [ male announcer ] if you think even the best bed can only lie there... ask me what it's like when my tempur-pedic moves. [ male announcer ] ...talk to someone who owns an adjustable version of the most highly recommended bed in america. ask me about my tempur advanced ergo. ask me about having all the right moves. [ male announcer ] these are real tempur advanced ergo owners. find one for yourself.

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the economy is growing. it actually is. that's what the numbers tell us, but you're not feeling it. you drive the economy and it can't grow unless you feel confident. you won't spend unless you are sure that you will continue to have an income. we're producing more goods, but that's only a small fraction of our economy. wages are stagnant and you are not saving money and with the fiscal cliff looming, there is a real danger that we could slip back into a recession, but the only economic message we heard from the gop this week was a relatively dishonest claim about job creation. it's true. we were hard on the republicans this week. it was their convention and we are holding a