is it within the purview of the government to bring those prices down, or are we looking at the new normal? >> candy, there's no doubt that world demand has gone up but our production has gone up and we're using our oil very efficiently. and what governor romney just said is true. we have opened up public lands, we're actually drilling more on public lands than the previous administration and the previous president was an oil man. and natural gas isn't just appearing magically, we're encouraging and working with the industry. and when i hear governor romney say he's a big coal guy, keep in mind, governor when you were governor of massachusetts, you stood in front of a coal plant and pointed at it and said, this plant kills and took great pride in shutting it down. and now suddenly you're a big champion of coal. so what i have tried to do is be consistent. with respect to something like

coal, we made the largest investment in clean coal technology to make sure that even as we're producing more coal, we're producing it cleaner and smarter, same thing with oil and same thing with natural gas, and the truth is our oil consumption is down, oil production is up, natural gas production is up and we're starting to build cars that are more efficient. and we're creating more jobs and we can export those cars because it will save money around the world. that's what we need and that's what we're going to do in the next four years. >> but that's not what have you you done in the last four years. that's the problem. in the last four years you cut permits and licenses on federal land in half. >> that's not true, governor romney. we have actually produced more oil. >> how many licenses have you given for oil drilling on federal lands.

>> i'm happy to answer the question. all right, and it is? >> here's what happened. you had a whole bunch of oil companies who had leases on public lands that they weren't using. so what we said was, you can't just sit on this for 10, 20, 30 years and decide when you want to drill, when you want to produce. when it's most profitable for you, these are public lands, so if you want to drill on public lands, you use use it or lose it. so we're taking away those government plans and releasing them. >> production of oil on government lands is down. there's no question that the people recognize that we have not produced more oil and gas on federal lands and in federal

waters and coal production, coal production is not up, coal jobs are not up. i was just at a coal facility where 1,200 people lost their jobs. the right course for america is to have a oil and gas policy. you'll get your chance in a moment i'm still speaking and the answer is i don't think that's the case. that wasn't a question, that was a statement. i don't think the american people believe that, i will fight for oil, coal and natural gas. the proof of whether the strategy is working or not is the price at the pump. if you're paying less than you paid two years ago, then the strategy is working. when the president took office, the price of gas was $1.86 a gallon. now it's over $4 a gallon. when the energy policies are working, you're going to see the price come down.

>> taking advantage of the oil and coal we have here, drilling offshore in alaska, drilling offshore in virginia where the people want it. those things will get us the energy we need. >> mr. president could you address what the governor said, which is if your energy policy was working, the price of gasoline would not be $4 a gallon, is that true. >> think about what the governor just said, when i took office the gas is $1.86? why is that? because the economy was on the verge of collapse. that was because we were about to go through the worst recession since the depression lt. it's conceivable that governor romney could bring down gas plieses because with his policies we might be back in that same mess. what i want to do is to create an economy that is strong, and

at the same time produce energy. and with respect to this pipeline that governor romney keeps talking about. we have built enough pipeline to wrap around the earth twice. i'm all for pipelines, i'm all for oil production, what i'm not for is us ignoring the other half of the question. when you've got thousands of people right now in iowa, right now in colorado who are working, creating wind power with good paying manufacturing jobs. governor romney says, i'm opposed i would get rid of them. we need to win that future and i intend to win it as president of the united states. >> i got to move on. the next question is for you. >> i get the next answer.

>> the next question is for you, so if you want to continue on. but i don't want to leave all these guys sitting here. >> candy, i don't have a policy of stopping wind jobs in iowa and they're not phantom jobs, i appreciate the jobs in iowa and colorado i appreciate the coal and oil and gas, i know that bringing back our energy policies will -- 3.5 million more jobs in this country. it's critical to our future. ♪

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>> i'm used to be interrupted. >> i'm going to move you along to taxes. the next question comes from mary follano. >> governor romney, you have

stated that when you're elected president you will work with the congress to eliminate deductions to make up for the loss in revenue. concerning these various deductions. the mortgage deduction. the charitable deductions. the child tax credit. and also the -- what that's that other credit, i forgot. >> you're doing great. >> the education credits which are important to me because i have children in college. what would be your position on those things, which are important to the middle class. >> thank you very much. and let me tell you, you're absolutely right about part of that, which is i want to bring the rates down, i want to simplify the tax code, and i want to get middle income taxpayers to have lower taxes. and the reason i want middle income taxpayers to have lower taxes is because middle income

taxpayers have been buried over the past four years, you have seen as middle income people in this country incomes come down $4,300 a family. even as gasoline prices have gone up $2,000. health insurance premiums up $2,500. utility prices are up, food prices are up. the middle class in america have been crushed over the last four years. so i want to give some relief to middle class families. that's part one. how about deductions because i'm going to bring rates down across the board for everybody, but i'm going to limit the deductions and credits for people particularly at the high end. because i'm not going to have people in the high end pay less than they're paying now. the top 5% of taxpayers will continue to pay 60% of the taxes that the nation collects. middle income people are going to get a tax break. in terms of bringing down deductions everybody gets

$25,000 in deductions and credits and you can decide which ones to use, your home mortgage interest deductions. but your rate comes down and the burden also comes down on you for one more reason. and that is every middle income taxpayer no longer will pay any tax on interest, dividends or capital gains, no tax on your savings. that makes life a lot easier if you're getting interest from a bank, if you're getting a statement from a mutual fund or any other kind of investment you have, you don't have to worry about filing taxes on that because there will be no taxes for anybody making $200,000 a year and less on your interest, dividends and capital gains? buy am i lowering taxes on the middle class? because over the last four years, they have been buried and i want to help people in the middle class, and i will not

under any circumstances reduce the share that's been paid by the highest tax brackets. the president's spending t president's borrowing will cause higher taxes as a result of the spending and borrowing of this administration. i will not let that happen. i'll get us on track to a balanced budget and i'm going to reduce the tax burtd on middle income families. what's going to do? it's going to help those families and lit create incentives to start growing jobs again in this country. >> thanks governor. >> my philosophy on taxes has been simple and that is i want to give middle class families and folks who are striving to get in the middle class some relief. because they have been hit hard, over the last decade. over the last a 50 and over the last 20 years. so four years ago i stood on a

stage just like this one and i said i will cut taxes for middle class families, and that's what i have done, by $3,600, i said i would cut taxes for small businesses who are the drivers of economic growth. and i want to continue those tax cuts for middle class families and for small businesses. but what i have also said is if we're serious about reducing the deficit, if this is gene -- genuinely a moral obligation to the next generation, if we're going to do tough spending cut, we have got to make sure that the wealthy do a little bit more. so what i propose is your first $200,000 worth of income, no change. that means 97% of americans and 97% of small businesses will not see a tax increase.

what i have also said for above $250,000 we can go back to the tax rates we had when bill clinton was president, we created 23 million new jobs. that's part of what took us from deficits to surplus. it will be good for our economy and it will be good for job creation. now governor romney has a different philosophy. he was on "60 minutes" just two weeks ago and he was asked, is it fair for somebody like you making $20 million a year to pay a lower tax rate than a nurse or a bus driver, somebody making a 50$,000 a year. he said yes, i think that's fair. he said i think that's what grows the economy. i fundamentally disagree with that. i think what grows the economy is when you get that tax credit that we put in place for your kids going to college.

i think that grows the economy. i think what grows the economy is when we make sure small businesses are getting a tax credit for hiring veteran who is fought four our country, that grows the economy. when governor romney stands here during the campaign, when during the republican primary he stood on stage he said i'm going to give tax cuts, not tax rate cuts, tax cuts to everybody in the top 1%. you can believe him because that's his history. we want a strong middle class and an economy that's striving for everybody. governor romney? >> you heard what i said about my tax plan, the top 5% will continue to pay 60% as they do today. i'm not looking to cut taxes for wealthy people. i am looking to cut taxes for middle income people. why do i want to bring rates down and at the same time lower exemptions and deductions

particularly for people at the high end. because when you bring rates down, it makes it easier for small businesses to keep more of their capital and hire people. for me this is about jobs, i want to get america's economy going again, 57% of americans work in small businesses. for me, i look at what's happened in the last four years and say this has been a disappointment. we can do better than this. we don't have to settle for 43 months with unemployment above 8%, 43 million americans struggling to find a job there. there's 3.5 million more people in poverty than when the president took office. energy independence for north america in five years. opening up more trade,

particularly in latin america, cracking down on china when they cheat, getting us a balanced budget, fixing our training programs for our workers and finally championing small businesses. i want to help small businesses grow and thrive. i know how to make that happen, i have spent my life in the private sector. i know why jobs come and why they go. they're going now because of the policies of this administration. >> governor let me ask the president about something you just said. the governor says he's not going to allow the top a 5% to get a tax cut. settled? >> no, it's not settled. look, the cost of lowering rates for everybody, across the board 20%. along with what he also wants to do in terms of eliminating estate tax, along what we wants to do in terms of corporate

changes in the tax code. it costs about 5 trillion. governor romney also wants to spend $2 trillion on additional military programs, even though the military is not asking for them. that's $7 trillion, he also wanting to continue the bush tax cuts for the wealthiest americans, that's $8 trillion. now what he says is, he's going to make sure that this doesn't add to the deficit and he's going to cut middle class taxes, but when he's asked how are you going to do it, which deductions, which loopholes are you going to close? he can't tell you. the fact that he only has to pay 14% on his taxes when a lot of you are paying much higher. he's already taken that off the board, capital gains are going to continue to be at a low rate, so we're not going to get money that way. we haven't heard from the governor any specifics beyond big bird and eliminating funding

for planned parenthood in terms of how he pays for that. now, governor romney was a very successful investor. if somebody came to you, governor with a plan that said i want to spend $7 trillion to $8 trillion, and we can't pay for it and we won't tell you until after the election how we're going to do it, you wouldn't have taken such a steppy deal and the american people won't do it either. what's at stake here, either candy this blows up the deficit. because keep in mind, this is just to pay for the additional spending that he's talking about. $7 trillion to $8 trillion that's before h we get to the deficit that we already had. and additionally it's got to be paid for by not only closing the loopholes for healthy

individuals, and you're going to be paying for it, you'll lose some deductions and you can't buy this sales pitch that evening goes to add up and work out. >> before we get to vast array of what who says what, if it shouldn't add up. if somehow when you get in there, there isn't enough tax revenue coming in, if somehow the numbers don't add up, would you be willing to look again at a 20% -- >> of course they add up. i was someone who ran businesses for 25 years and balanced the budget. i ran the olympics and balanced the budget. i ran the state of massachusetts as a governor to the extent any governor does and balanced the budget for those four years. and in terms of it not adding up, what about $5 trillion added to the deficit? that's math that doesn't add up.

we have the president talking about a plan that's completely foreign to what my real plan is, and then we are his own record. we have four consecutive years when he said when he was running for office that he would cut the deficit in half, instead he's doubled it. we have gone to $7 trillion of national dead to $16 trillion of national debt. this takes on a road to greece. he says yours is a $5 trillion cut, no it isn't because i'm withholding some of the deductions. >> i understand both of you but i will get run out of town if i don't --

>> i just described to you precisely how i do it with a @pp

president the next question is for you. it's kathy fen son who has a question for you. >> in what new ways do you plan to correct inequalities in the workplace. specifically women who earn 70% of what their male counterparts earn. >> that's a good question. and i was raised by a single mom who had put herself through school while looking after two kids and she worked hard every day and made a lot of sacrifices to make sure we got everything we needed. my grandmother, she started off as a secretary in a bank. she never got a college education, even though she was

smart as a whip and she worked her way up to become a vice president of a local bank. but she hit the glass ceiling. she trained people who would end up becoming her bosses. she didn't complain, which is not something you did in that generation. the first bill i signed was something called the lily ledbetter bill, it was named after a woman who had been doing the same job as a man for years, found out that she was getting paid less and the supreme court said she couldn't bring suit because she didn't find out about it earlier, she had no way of finding out about it. so we fixed that. that's an example of the kind of advocacy that we need because women are increasingly the breadwinners of the family.

this is not just a women's issue, this is a family issue, this is a middle class issue and that's why we have got to fight for it. it also means that we have got to make sure that young people like yourself are able to afford a college education. earlier governor romney talked about that he wants to make pell grants, other education accessible for ying people. the truth of the matter is this's kbaktdly what we have done. we have expanded pell grants for students all across the country. we did it by taking $60 billion that was going to banks that were the middle men for student lones and we said let's just give it to students. as a result we have made sure millions of young people are able to afford college. but we have got to enforce the laws which is what we're doing and we have got to make sure that in every walk of life, we're going to --

>> governor romney, pay for women. >> thank you, important topic and one which i learned a great deal about, particularly when i was serving as governor of my state because i had a chance to pull together a cabinet that all the applicants seemed to be men. i said why are all the these applicants men? well, these are the people that are qualified. i said can't we find some women that are qualifiesed. we went out and found women that were qualified to be part of our cabinet. i was proud of the fact that after i staffed my cabinet and the senior staff that the university of new york in albany did a survey in all 50 states and concluded that mine had more women in senior leadership positions than any other state

in america. one of the reasons i was able to get so many good women to be part of our team was because of our recruiting effort, and number two, i understood that if you're going to have women in the workforce you have to be more flexible. she said i can't be here until 7:00 or 8:00 at night. i need to be home at 5:00 because of making dinner for my kids and be with them when they get home from school. so we said fine, let's have hours that will work for you. we have to have employers in the new economy, in the economy that i'm going to come to play, are going to be anxious to hire women. in the last four years, women have lost 580,000 jobs, that's the net of what's happened in the last four years. we're still down 580,000 jobs. more women are in poverty than four years ago.

what we're going to do to help women is having a strong economy and have employers that are looking for great employees and are adaptable to a flexible work schedule that gives them opportunities that they might other piz not be able to perform. this is what i have done, and i know what it takes to make an economy work, and i know what a working economy looks like. and an economy with 7.89% unemployment is not a strong economy. an economy with 50% of kids graduating from college that can't finds a job, or a college level job, that's not what we have to have. i'm going to help women in america get good work by getting a stronger economy and by supporting women in the work force. >> mr. president, why don't you get in on this quickly please? >> i just want to support that when governor romney was asked if he supported the lily

ledbetter bill, he said i'll get back to you and he never answered that. i want to -- health care, a major difference in this campaign is that governor romney feels comfortable having politicians in washington decide the health care choices that women are making. i think that's a mistake. in my health care bill, i said insurance companies need to provide contraceptive coverage. to everybody who's insured because this is not just a health issue, it's an economic issue for women. it makes a difference. this is money out of that family's pocket. governor romney not only opposed it, he suggested that employers should be able to make the decision as to whether or not a woman gets contraception through

her insurance company. that's not the kind offed a voe -- advocacy that women need. when governor romney said we would eliminate funding for planned parenthood. there are millions of women all across the country that rely on it for not only for contraception, they rely on it for mammograms and other issues. it makes a difference in how well women are able to work. when we talk about child care and the credits that we're providing, that makes a difference in terms of whether they can go out there and earn a living for their family. these are not just women's issues, these are family issues these are economic issues. and one of the things that makes us grow as an economy is when everybody participates and women are getting the same fair deal as men are.

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>> i want to move on to susan katz who has a question and governor it's for you. >> governor romney, i'm an undecided voter because i'm disappointed in the progress i have seen in the last four years. however i do attribute america's problems to the failings and missteps of the bush administration. since both you and president bush are republicans, i fear a return to the policies of those years should you win this election. what is the biggest difference between you and george w. bush

and how do you differentiate yourself from george w. bush? >> thank you and i appreciate that question. i just want to make sure that, i think i was supposed to get that last answer, but i want to point out that -- i don't believe. >> i want to make sure our time keepers are working. >> the time keepers are all working and let me tell you that the last part is for the two of you to talk to one another and it's not quite as onerous as you think. go ahead and use the time any way you would like to. >> i don't believe that washington should tell someone whether they should have contraceptive care or not. and the president's statement of my policy is completely and totally wrong. let me come back and answer your question. president bush and i are different people and these are different times and that's why my five-point plan is so different than what we would have done. for instance, with can now by

virtue of new technology actually get all the energy we need in north side america without having to go to the arabs or the venezuelans or anyone else. that wasn't true in his time. that's why my budget starts with getting all that energy in north america and become energy secure. number two, trade, crack down on trade in china. president bush didn't. and i'm also go to adds more free trade agreements to we'll have more trade. number three, i'm going to get us to a balanced budget. president bush didn't, president obama was right, he said it was outrageous to have deficits of trillions of dollars throughout the bush year, but then he put policies that caused twice that much. so that's the next way i'm different from president bush. let's take the last one,

championing small business. our party has been focused on big business too long. i came through small business. i understand how hard it is to start a small business. that's buy everything i'll do is designed to help small businesses grow and add jobs. i want to keep their taxes down on small business. i want regulators to see their job as encouraging small enterprise not crushing it. one of the things that i find troubling about obama care -- there's a long list, but one of the things i find troubling is that when you ask small businesses who they -- my priority is jobs, and president bush had a very different path for a very different time. my path is designed in getting small businesses to grow and hire people. >> thanks governor. mr. president? >> well, first of all, i think it's important to tell you that we did come in during some tough times, we were losing 800,000

jobs a month when i started. but we had, in digging our way out of policies that were misplaced and focussed on the top doing very well and middle class folks not doing well. we have seen 31 consecutive months of job growth. 5.2 million new jobs created and the plans that i talked about will create even more. but when governor romney says that he has a very different economic plan, the centerpiece of his economic plan are tax cuts, that's what took us from surplus to deficit. when he talks about getting tough on china. keep in mind, that governor romney invested in companies that were pioneers of outsourcing to china. and is currently investing in companies that are building surveillance equipment for china to spy on its own folks.

governor, you're the last person who's going to get tough on china. and what we have done when it comes to trade is not only sign three trade deals to open up new markets, but we have also set up a task for trade that goes after anybody who is taking advantage of american workers or businesses and not creating a level playing field. we brought twice as many cases against unfair trade practices than the previous administration. and won every single one that's been decided. when i said we had to make sure that china was not flooding our domestic market with cheap tires, governor romney said i was being protectionist, it wouldn't be helpful to american workers. it saved 1,000 jobs, and that's the kind of tough action required. the last thing i want to say is this. there are some things where governor romney is different than george bush. george bush didn't propose

turning medicare into a voucher. george bush embraced comprehensive immigration reform, he didn't call for self-deportation self-deportation. he never suggested that we eliminate funding for planned parenthood, so there are differences between governor romney and george bush, but not on economic policy, in some ways he's gone to a more extreme place when to comes to social policy and i think that's a mistake. that's not how we'll move our economy forward. yummy, scrumptious bars. hmm? i just wanted you to eat more fiber. chewy, oatie, gooeyness... and fraudulence. i'm in deep, babe. you certainly are. [ male announcer ] fiber one. >> announcer: meet tom, a proud dad whose online friends all "like" the photos he's posting. oscar likes tom's photos, but he loves the access to tom's personal information. oscar's an identity thief who used tom's personal info to buy

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>> i want to move you both along to the next question. it's in the same wheel house. you will be able to respond. the president gets to respond to this question. i want to call on michael jones. >> mr. president, i voted for you in 2008. what have you done to earn my vote in 2012? i'm not as optimistic as i was in 2012.

most of the things i need for every day living are very expensive. >> we've gone through a tough four years, no doubt about it four years ago, i told the american people and i told you, i would cut taxes for middle class families, and i did. i told you i would cut taxes for small businesses, and i have. i said i'd end the war in iraq, and i did. i said we'd focus attention on those who attacked us on 9/11. and we've gone after al qaeda's leadership like never before. and osama bin laden is dead. i said we would put in place health care reform to make sure insurance companies can't jerk you around and if you don't have health insurance, would you have a chance to get affordable insurance and i have. i said i would rein in the excesses of wall street and we passed the toughest wall street reforms since the 193 0z. 0s. we have created 500,000 jobs. we saved an auto industry that

was on the brink of collapse. now, does that mean you are not struggling? absolutely not. a lot of us are. and that's why the plan i put forward for manufacturing and education and reducing our deficit in a sensible way, using the savings from ending wars to rebuild america, putting people back to work. making sure we are controlling our own energy, and also the energy of the future. all of those things will make a difference. the commitments i've made, i've kept, and those that i haven't been able to keep? it's not for lack of trying, and we'll get it done in a second term. but you should pay attention to this campaign, because governor romney has made some commitments as well, and i suspect he'll keep those too. when members of the republican congress say we'll sign a no tax

pledge so we don't ask a dime from millionaires and billionaires to reduce our deficit to still invest in education and helping kids go to college, he said me too when they said we're going to cut planned parenthood funding, he said me too. repeal obama care, despite it's the same thing that it was the same thing he passed in massachusetts and is working well, he said me too. that is not the kind of leadership you need, but you should expect, because those are promises that he is going to keep. >> mr. president -- >> and the choice in this election is whose promises are more likely to help you in your life, make sure your kids can go to college, make sure you are getting a good-paying job. >> mr. president. >> medicare will be there for up. >> mr. president, thank you. governor. >> i think you know better. i think the last four years as

the president described, and you're not confident that the next four years will be better either. i can tell you if you elect president obama, you know what you will get. you'll get the repeat of the last four years. we can't afford four more years like the last four years. he said by now, we'd have unemployment at 5.4%. the difference between where it is and 5.4% is 9 million americans without work. i wasn't the one that said 5.4%. this was the president's plan. didn't get there. he said he would have by now put forward a plan to reform medicare and social security, because he pointed out, they are on the road to bankruptcy. he would reform them, get that done. he hasn't even made a proposal on either one. he said in his first year, he'd put out an immigration plan that would deal with immigration challenges. didn't even file it. this is a president who has not been able to do what he said he would do. this is a president that said he could cut in half the deficit. didn't do that either.

in fact, he doubled it. he said middle income families would have a reduction in their health insurance premiums by $2,500 a year. it's gone up by $2,500 a year if obama care is implemented fully it will be another $2,500 on top. the middle class is getting crushed under the policies of a president who has not understood what it takes to get the economy working again. he said i created 5 million jobs. that's after losing 5 million jobs. the entire record is that the unemployment has not been reduced in this country. the number of people still looking for work is still 23 million americans. more people in poverty, one out of six people in poverty. how about food stamps? when he took office, 32 million people were on food stamps. today, 47 million people are on food stamps. how about the growth of the economy? growing more slowly this year

than last year. and more slowly last year than the year before. the president wants to do well, i understand. but the policies he put in place from obama care to dodd-frank to tax policies to regulatory policies. these policies have not led the economy to take off and grow. you might say do you have an example when it worked better? yeah, the reagan recession when unemployment hit 10.8%. in that equivalent period of time today, reagan's recovery created twice as many jobs. 5 million jobs doesn't keep up with our population growth and the only reason the unemployment rate seems a little lower today is because of all of the people that have dropped out of the workforce. the president has tried, but his policies haven't worked. his grade as a speaker and describing his plans and vision, that's wonderful, except we have a record to look at, and that

record shows he just hasn't been able to cut the deficit, to put in place reforms for medicare and social security to preserve them, to get the rising incomes. median income is down $4,300 a family. and 23 millions out of work. that's what this election is about. who can get the middle class in this country a bright and prosperous future and assure our kids the kind of hope and optimism they deserve. >> governor, don't go away. we have plenty of time to respond. we are quite aware. i want to bring in a different subject here.

lorain osario has a question for mr. romney, and we'll be right with you, mr. president. thanks. >> what do you plan on doing

immigrants without their green cards that are currently living here as productive members of society? >> thank you. lorain? did i get that right? good. thank you for your question. let me step back and tell me what i would like to do with immigration policy broadly and include an answer to your question. first of all this is a nation of immigrants. we welcome people coming to this country as immigrants. my dad was born in mention cough american parents and ann's dad was born in wales. i want our legal system to work better, i want it to be streamlined and clearer. i don't think you should have to hire a lawyer to figure out how to get into this country legally. i think we should give visas to people -- green cards to people rather to people with skills that we need. people with accredited degrees in science and math, get a green card stapled to their diploma, come to the us of a. make sure our legal system

works, number two, we have to strap i will stop illegal immigration. 4 million people are waiting in line to come legally. i had not grant amnesty to those who are here illegally. i had put in place an employment verification system. and those who hire those who are here illegally will be sanctioned. i won't put in magnets for those coming illegally. i wouldn't give driver's licenses for those who come illegally as the president would. the kids of those that came here i will i will illegally, they should have a path to becoming legal citizens. and when the president ran for office, he said that he put in place in his first year, a piece of legislation, file a bill in

his first year that would reform our immigration system. protect legal immigration, stop illegal immigration. he didn't do it. he had a democrat house, a democrat senate, supermajority in both houses. why did he fail to even promote legislation to provide an answer for those who want to come legally, and those who are here illegal today? i think that's a question that the president has a chance to answer right now. >> i look forward to it loraina? lorain. we are a nation of immigrants. and we're just a few miles away from ellis island. we all understand what this country has become because talent from all around the world wants to come here. people are willing to take risks and people want to build on their dreams and make sure their kids have bigger dreams than they have. we are a nation of laws. we need to fix a broken immigration system and i've done everything i can on my own, and

sought cooperation from congress to make sure that we fix the system. first thing we did, we streamlined the immigration system. to make it easier, cheaper, for those waiting in line to make sure they could come and contribute to our economy. that's good for economic growth. contribute to our country. that's good for economic growth. they'll start new businesses, make things happen to create new jobs here in the united states. number two, we have to deal with our boards, so we put more border patrol on more than any time in history. and the flow across the border is actually lower than it's been in 40 years. i've also said, if we're going to go after folks who are here illegally, we should do it smartly and go after folks who are criminals. gang bangers, people who are hurting the community. not after students. not after folks who are here just because they are trying to

figure out how to feed their families and that's what we've done. and i've also said for young people who come here, brought here oftentimes by their parents and have gone to school here, pledged allegiance to the flag, think of this as their country, understand themselves as americans. in every way except having papers and we should give them a pathway to citizenship and that's what i just said. governor romney says he want to help those people too, but under the republican primary, he said he would veto the dream act that would allow those young people to have access. his main strategy during the primary was to say we'll encourage self-deportation. making life so miserable on folks that they'll leave. he called the arizona law a model for the nation, which says

law enforcement officers could stop folks because they suspected, that they looked like they might be undocumented workers and check their papers. you know what? if my daughter or yours looks to somebody like they are not a citizen, i don't want to empower somebody like that. so we can fix this system in a comprehensive way and when governor romney says the challenge is, well, obama didn't try. that's not true. i sat down with democrats and republicans at the beginning of my term, and said let's fix this system, including senators who previously were on the republican side. it's very hard for republicans to support comprehensive immigration reform if their standard bearer says this is not something i'm interested in supporting. >> let me get the governor in here. let's speak to the idea of self-deportation.

>> let me go back to speak to the points that the president made and let's get them correct. i did not say the arizona law was a model for the nation. in that aspect. i said the e-verify portion of the arizona law, which is the portion of the law that says that law enforcement could determine if someone was here legally or illegally. i asked a question that hispanics and immigrants all over the nation have asked. why when you said you would file legislation in your first year, didn't you do it? he didn't answer it. he said the standard bearer wasn't for it. i'm glad you thought i was a standard bearer four years ago, but i wasn't. four years ago, you said in your first year, would you file legislation. in his first year, i was just getting -- licking my wounds from having been beaten by john mccain, all right? i was not the standard bearer. my view is that this president should have honored his promise

to do as he said. let me mention one other thing. self-deportation, letting people make their own choice. what i was saying. we won't round up 12 million people, undocumented illegals and take them out of the nation. instead, let people make their own choice, and if they find that they can't get the benefits here that they want, and they can't find the job they want, they'll make a decision to go a place where they have better opportunities. but i'm not in favor of rounding up people and taking them out of this country. i am in favor as the president has said, and i agree with him, which is if people are committing crimes we have to get them out of this country. let me mention something that that i didn't get a chance to when he was describing chinese investments and so forth. >> candy, hold on a second. >> mr. president, i'm still speaking. >> i'm sorry. go ahead and finish, mr. romney. if you can make it short.

all of these people are waiting for you. make it short. >> any investments i have made over the last eight years, have been by blind trusts and they include investments outside of the united states, including chinese companies. have you looked at your pension? >> i have to say. >> have you looked at your pension? >> i don't look at my pension. it's not as big as yours. so it doesn't take that long. i don't check it that often. >> let me give you add vice. you also have investments in chinese companies and investments outside of the united states, through a cayman trust. >> we're way off topic here, governor romney. completely off immigration. >> i know we're talking about immigration. >> let me come back -- >> if you could sit down, governor romney. thank you. >> i want to make sure we understand something. governor romney said he wasn't referring to arizona as a model for the nation. his top advisor on immigration is the guy who designed the arizona law, the entirety of it, the whole thing. that was policy and it's bad

policy. and it won't help us grow. when we think about immigration, we have to understand there are folks all around the world that still see america as the land of promise and provide us energy and provide us innovation and start companies like intel and google, and we want to encourage that. now, we have to make sure we do it in a smart way, a comprehensive way and we make the legal system better. but when we make this into a did visive political issue, and when we don't have bipartisan order, i can deliver a bunch of democrats to get comprehensive immigration reform. >> i'll get it done. i'll get it done. >> mr. president, i need you to move on. things have been a little strange.

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i want you to speak to kerry ladka who wants to switch the topic here for us. >> okay. i'm sorry, what's your name? >> kerry ladka. this question comes from a brain trust. we were talking about libya, and we became aware of reports that the state department refused extra security for an embassy in benghazi, libya, prior to the attacks that killed four americans. who was it that denied enhanced security and why? >> let me first talk about our diplomats because they serve all over the world and do an incredible job in a very dangerous situation. these aren't just representatives of the united states, they are my representatives. i send them there. oftentimes into harm's way. i know these folks and i know

their families. so nobody is more concerned about their safety and security than i am. so as soon as we found out that the benghazi consulate was being overrun, i was on the phone with my national security team and gave them three instructions. number one, beef up securities and procedures, not just in libya but every embassy and consulate in the region. number two, investigate exactly what happened. regardless of where the facts lead us. make sure folks are held accountable and it doesn't happen again. number three, we are going to find out who did this and we're going to hunt them down, one of the things that i said throughout my presidency is when folks mess with americans, we go after them. now, governor romney had a pretty different response. while we were still dealing with our diplomats being threatened, governor romney put out a press

release. trying to make political points, and that's not how a commander in chief operates. you don't turn national security into a political issue, certainly not right when it's happening, and people -- not everybody agrees with some of the decisions i've made. but when it comes to national security, i mean what i say. i said i'd end the war in libya, in iraq, and i did. i said we'd go after al qaeda and bin laden, and we have. i said we'd transition out of afghanistan and start making sure afghanis are responsible for their up security. that's what i'm doing. and when it comes to this issue, when i say that we are going to find out exactly what happened, everybody will be held accountable and i am ultimately responsible for what's taking place, because these are my

folks, and i'm the one that has to greet the coffins when they come home, you know that i mean what i say. >> mr. president, i have to move us along. governor? >> thank you, kerry, thank you for your question. it's an important one. i think the president is right when he says that the buck stops at his desk and he takes responsibility for providing the failure in those security resources and those terrible things may have like that from time to time. i feel deeply sympathetic for the families for those who lost loved ones, and today is a memorial service for one of the family members who was lost in this tragedy. we think of their families and care for them deeply. there were other issues associated with this tragedy. many days passed before we knew if this was a spontaneous demonstration or terrorist attack. there was no demonstration. it was a terrorist attack and it took a long time for that to be told to the american people. whether it was misleading or it

just didn't happen, i think you have to ask yourself, why didn't we know five days latest when the ambassador to the united nations went on tv to stay this was a demonstration, how did we not snow in i find more troubling than this, the day following the assassination of a united states ambassador, first time that's happened since 1979, when we have four americans killed there, when apparently we didn't know what happened, the president -- the day after that happened, flies to las vegas for a political fund-raiser, and the next day to colorado for another event. another political event. i think these -- these actions taken by a president and a leader have symbolic significance. and perhaps even material significance in that you hope during that time we could call in the people who were actually eyewitnesss, we've read accounts about what happened. it was very clear. this was not a demonstration. this was an attack by terrorists. and this calls into question the president's whole policy in the middle east.

look what's happening in syria, in egypt, now in libya. consider the distance between ourselves and israel. the president said he would put daylight between us and israel. we have iran, four years closer to a nuclear bomb. syria is not just the tragedy of 30,000 civilians being killed by a military, but also a strategically significant player for america. the president's policies throughout the middle east began with an apology tour and pursue a strategy of leading from behind and this strategy is unraveling before our very eyes. >> because we're closing, i want to get a lot of people in. i want to ask you something, mr. president, and then the governor quickly. your secretary of state says she takes full responsibility for the attack on the diplomatic mission in benghazi. does the buck stop with your secretary of state as far as what goes on here? >> secretary clinton has done an extraordinary job, but she works for me.

i'm the president, and i'm always responsible. no one is more interested in finding out exactly what happened than i did. the day after the attack, governor, i stood in the rose garden and told the american people and the world that we were going to find out exactly what happened. that this was an act of terror. and i also said that we're going to hunt down those who committed this crime. and a few days later, i was there greeting the caskets coming into andrews air force base and grieving with the families. and the suggestion that anybody on my team, whether it's secretary of state, our u.n. ambassador, anybody on my team,

would play politics or mislead when we've lost four of our own, governor, is offensive. that's not what we do. that's not what i do as president, not what i do as commander in chief. >> governor, if you want to reflect quickly, please. >> i think the president said something interesting, on the day after the attack he went to the rose garden and said this was an act of terror. you said in the rose garden the day after the attack, it was an act of terror? it was not a spontaneous demonstration, is that what you are saying? >> please proceed, governor. >> i want to make sure we get that for the record. it took the president 14 days before he called it an act of terror. >> get the transcript. >> he did, in fact, sir. he did call it an act of terror. it did as well take two weeks or so for the whole idea of there being a riot out there about this tape to come out. you're correct about that.

>> the administration. the administration indicated this was a reaction to a video and was a spontaneous reaction. it took them a long time to say this was a terrorist act by a terrorist group. and to suggest -- am i incorrect in that regard, on sunday -- >> candy. >> excuse me. the ambassador went on television shows and said this was a spontaneous. >> i'm happy to have a longer conversation. >> i want to move you on and people can go to the transcripts and -- >> i just want to make sure all these wonderful folks will have a chance to get their questions answered.

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>> president obama, during the democratic national convention 2008, you stated you wanted to keep ak-47s out of the hands of criminals. what has your administration done or plan to do to limit the availability of assault weapons? >> we're a nation that believes in the second amendment, and i believe in the second amendment, we've got a long tradition of hunting and sportsmen and people who want to make sure they can protect themselves. but there are too many instances during the course of my presidency where i've had to comfort families who have lost somebody. most recently out in aurora. just a couple of weeks ago, actually, probably about a month, i saw a mother who i had met at the bedside of her son, who had been shot in that theater and her son had been

shot in the head. and we spent some time, and we said a prayer and remarkably, about two months later, in young man and his mom showed up, and he looked unbelievable. good as new. but there were a lot of families who didn't have that good fortune and whose sons or daughters or husbands didn't survive. so my belief is that, a, we have to enforce the laws we've already got. keep the guns out of hands of criminals. those who are mentally ill. we have a lot more to do when it comes to enforcement. but i also share your belief that weapons who were designed for soldiers in war theaters don't belong on our streets. so what i'm trying to do is get a broader conversation about how do we reduce the violence generally. part of it is seeing if we can

get an assault weapons ban reintroduced. but part of it is also looking at other sources of the violence. because frankly in my hometown of chicago there's a lot of violence, but they are not using ak-47s, they are using handguns. what can we do to intervene to make sure young people have opportunity? that our schools are working. that if there is violence on the streets, working with faith groups and law enforcement, we can catch it before it gets out of control. what i want is a comprehensive strategy, part of it is seeing if we can get automatic weapons that kill folks in amazing numbers out of the hands of criminals and the mentally ill. i want want to get into the community and catch violent impulses before they occur. >> governor romney, the question

is about assault weapons. >> i'm not in favor of new pieces of legislation on guns or taking guns away or making certain guns illegal. we, of course, don't want automatic weapons which is already illegal in this country. what i believe we have to do as the president mentioned toward the end of remarks, to make enormous efforts to enforce the gun laws we have and change the culture of violence we have. we ask how are we going to do that? he mentioned good schools. i totally agree. we drove the schools to be number one in the nation in my state. i believe we give people the hope and opportunity they deserve and perhaps less violence from that. but let me mention another thing. that's parents. we need moms and dads helping to raise kids, and the benefit of two parents in the home, that's not always possible. a lot of great single moms, single dads, but to tell our kids that before they have babies they ought to think about getting married, that's a great idea. if there's a two-parent family,

the prospect of living in poverty goes down dramatically. the opportunities the child will be able to achieve increase dramatically. so we can make changes in the way our culture works to help bring people away from violence and give them opportunity and bring them into the american system. the greatest failure we've had with regards to gun violence in some respects is what is known as fast and furious, which is a program under this administration and how it worked exactly, i think we don't know precisely, but we are thousands of automatic and ak-47-type weapons were given to people that ultimately gave them to drug lords, they used those weapons against their up citizens and killed americans with them. this was a prom of the government. for what purpose it was put in place, i can't imagine, but it's one of the great violences that

occurred in society, which occurred during this administration, which the american people would like to understand fully. it's been investigated to a degree, but the administration has carried out executive privilege to prevent all of the information from coming out. i want to understand what led to this. thousands of guns going to mexican drug lords. >> governor, if i could, the question was about assault weapons that were once banned and are no longer banned. i know you signed an assault weapons ban when you were in massachusetts, obviously for this question, you no longer do support that. why is that, given the violence we see sometimes with these mass killings? why is it that you have changed your mind? >> candy, in my state, the pro gun folks and anti-gun folks came together and put together a piece of legislation and it's referred to as an assault weapon ban, but at the signing of the bill, both the pro-gun and the anti-gun people came together. because it provided

opportunities that both wanted. there were hunting opportunities that became available and so forth, it was mutually agreed upon, a piece of legislation. that's what we need more of, candy. what we have in washington is gridlock. >> if you could get people to agree to it, you would be for it. >> we haven't had the leadership in washington to work on a bipartisan basis. i was able to do that in my state and bring these two together. >> go ahead, mr. president. >> first of all, i think governor romney was for an assault weapons ban before he was against it. and he said the reason he changed his mind was in part because he was seeking the endorsement of the national rifle association. so that's on the record. i think one area we agree on is the important of parents and the importance of schools. i believe if our young people have opportunity, they are less likely to engage in these kinds of violent acts.

we won't eliminate everybody who is mentally disturbed and we have to make sure they don't get weapons. we can make a difference in terms of insuring that every young person in america, regardless of where they came from and what they look like, they have a chance to succeed. candy, we haven't had a chance to talk about education much, but it's very important to understand that the reforms we put in place, working with 46 governors around the country, are seeing schools that are some of the toughest ones for kids are starting to succeed, starting to see gains in math and science. when it comes to community colleges, we are setting up programs, including with nassau community college to retrain young workers, including those who dropped out of school, are getting another chance. training for jobs that exist right now. and employers are looking for skilled workers and we're matching them up.

giving them access to higher education. as i said, we made sure millions of young people are able to get an education they weren't able to get before. >> mr. president, i have to move you along here. we need to do it here. >> one second because this is important. this is part of the choice in this election and when governor romney was asked, whether hiring more teachers was important to growing our economy, governor romney said it doesn't grow our economy. >> the question is, mr. president, with guns here, so i need to move us along. the question was guns. >> i understand. but this will make a difference in terms of whether we can move the economy forward for young people and reduce our violence. >> i understand. okay. ♪ [ male announcer ] this is karen and jeremiah. they don't know it yet, but they're gonna fall in love,

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i want to ask carole goldberg to stand up and this question is for governor romney. >> the outsourcing of american jobs overseas has taken a toll

on our economy. what plans do you have to put back and keep jobs here in the united states? >> great question. an important question. because you're absolutely right. the place we've seen manufacturing go is china. china is now number one, it used to be the united states of america. a lot of people have lost jobs. a half a million manufacturing jobs have been lost total over the last four years. one of the reasons for that is people think it's more attractive in some cases to go offshore than to stay here. we have made it less attractive for enterprises to stay here than go offshore from time to time. what i will do as president is make sure it's more attractive to come to america again. this is the way we're going to create jobs in this country. not by trickle down government. we are going to hire more government workers, raise more taxes, put in place more regulations. trickle down government has never worked here, it's never worked anywhere. i want to make america the most

attractive place in the world for entrepreneurs, small business, big business, to invest and grow in america. now, we have to make sure as we trade with other nations that they play by the rules and china hasn't. one of the ways is by artificially holding down the value of their currency. because if they put their currency down low, that means the prices on gods are low. that makes them advantageous in the marketplace. we lose sales and manufacturers in the u.s. making the same products can't compete. china say currency manipulator for years and years and years. and the president has a regular opportunity to label them as a currency manipulator, but refuses to do so. day one, i'll label china a currency manipulator. which allows me as president to put in place tariffs where i believe they are taking unfair

advantage of our manufacturers. so we'll make sure people we trade with around the world play by the rules. let me not just stop there. don't forget what's key to bringing back jobs here, not just finding someone else to punish, and i'm going to be strict with people who we trade with to make sure they follow the law, play by the rules, but to make america the most attractive place in the world for businesses of all kinds and bring on the tax rates on small employers, big employers, so they want to be here, canada's tax rate on companies is now 15%. ours is 35%. if you were starting a business, where would you rather start it? we have to be competitive to create more jobs here. the rate of regulations quadrupled under this president. i talked to small businesses across the country and they say we feel like we're under attack from our own government. i want to make sure regulators see their job as encouraging small businesses, not crushing it.

no question, but obama care has been an extraordinary deterrent to enterprises of all kinds hiring people. my priority is to make sure we get more people hired. if we have more people hired, if we get back manufacturing jobs, if we get back all kinds of jobs into this country, then you'll see rising incomes again. the reason incomes are down is because unemployment is so high. i know what it takes to get this to happen and my plan will do that, and one part of it is to make sure we keep china playing by the rules. thank you. >> mr. president, two minutes. and then we'll move on to the last question. >> we need to create jobs. and both governor romney and i agree we should lower our tax rate. it's too high. there is a difference on how we would do it. i want to close loopholes that allow companies to duct expenses when they move to china, that

allow them to profit offshore. and not have to get taxed so they have tax advantages offshore. all of those changes would make a difference. governor romney wants to expand those tax breaks. one of his big ideas when it comes to corporate tax reform would be to say if you invest overseas, you make profits overseas, you don't have to pay u.s. taxes. of course, if you are a small business, mom and pop business, or a big business, you have to pay a reduced rate even that governor romney is talking about, and it's estimated that will create 800,000 new jobs. problem is, they'll be in china, or india, or germany. that's not the way we'll create jobs here. the way we'll create jobs here, not just create our jobs, but double our exports. we are on pace to double our exports. one of the commitments i made as president. that's creating tens of

thousands of jobs across the country. that's why we kept on pushing trade deals, but trade deals that make sure american workers and american businesses are getting a good deal. governor romney talked about china. as i already indicated, in the private sector, governor romney invested in pioneers of outsourcing, that's not my phrase, that's what reporters call it. and as far as currency manipulation, the currency has actually gone up 11% since i've been president, because we have pushed them hard. we have put unprecedented trade pressure on china, and that will help to create jobs here. [ male announcer ] one in four americans can't sleep.

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>> mr. president, a really short time for a quick discussion here. ipad, the macs, iphones, all manufactured in china, and one of the reasons is, labor is so much cheaper here. how do you convince a great american company to bring that manufacturing back here? >> the answer is very straight forward, we can compete with anyone in the world as long as the playing field is level. china's been cheating over the years, won by holding down the value of their currency. two, by stealing our intellectual property, designs and technology. there is a counterfeit apple store, in china, selling counterfeit apple goods. they hack into our computers, we need to have people playing fair. number two, we have to make america the most attractive

place for entrepreneurs for people to expand a business, that is what brings jobs in. >> how much time, candy? >> the president's plan is completely false. >> let me go to the president. we're really running out of time. the question is, we can't get wages like that. it can't be sustained. >> candy, some jobs are not going to come back. because they are low wage, low-skilled jobs. i want high wage, high-skilled jobs. that's why we have to emphasize manufacturing, investment in advanced manufacturing. we need to make sure we have the best science and research in the world. when we talk about deficits, if we're adding to our deficit for tax cuts for folks who don't need them and we're cutting investments in research and science that will create the next apple, create the next new innovation that will sell products around the world, we'll lose that race. if we're not training engineers to make sure they are equipped here in the country, then companies won't come here, those

investments are what will help to make sure that we continue to lead this world economy, not just this year, but 50 years from now, 100 years from now. >> government doesn't create job. government does not create jobs. >> governor, i want to introduce to you barry green, he's going to have the last question to you first. >> hi, barry. >> hi, governor. >> i think this is a tough question for each of you. what do you believe is the biggest misperception that the american people have about you as a man and a candidate? using specific examples, can you take this opportunity to debunk that misperception and set us straight. >> thank you. that's an opportunity for me, and i appreciate it. in the nature of a campaign, it seems some campaigns are focused on attacking a person, rather

than prescribing their future and focusing on what they would like to do. in the course of that, the president's campaign tried to characterize me as someone that is very different than who i am. i care about 100% of the american people. i want 100% of the american people to have a bright and prosperous future. i care about our kids. i understand what it takes to make a bright and prosperous future again for america. i spent my life in private sector, not in government. i'm a guy that wants to help with the experience i have for the american people. my passion probably flows from the fact that i believe in god and i believe we're all children of the same god. i believe we have a responsibility to care for one another. i served as a missionary for my church. served as a pastor in my congregation for about ten years. i've sat across the table from people who were out of work and worked with them to find new work or help them through tough times. i went to the olympics when they were in trouble and try to get them on track, and as governor of my state, i was able to get

100% of my people insured, all of my kids, about 98% of the adults. and i was able to get the schools ranked highest in the nation. i understand we don't have to settle for what we're going we don't have to settle for gas leap at 4 bucks. we don't have to settle for up employment at a croppicly high level. we don't have to settle for 47 million people on food stamps. we don't have to settle for 57% of kids coming out of college not able to get work. we don't have to settle for 23 million people looking for a good job. if i become president, i'll get america working again. i'll get us on track to a balanced budget. the president hasn't, i will. i'll make sure we reform medicare and social security. the president said he would, he didn't. i'll make sure we get our incomes up. and i have done these things.

i served as governor and have showed i can get them done. >> last two minutes belong to you, mr. president. >> barry, i think a lot of this campaign and maybe over the last four years has been devoted to this notion that i think government creates jobs, that that's somehow the answer. that's not what i believe. i believe the free enterprise system is the greatest engine of prosperity the world has ever known, and i believe in self-reliance and individual initiative and risk takers being rewarded. and i believe everybody should have a fair shot, and everybody should do their fair share and everybody should play by the same rules. because that's how our economy is grown. that's how we build the world's greatest middle class. and that is part of what's at stake in this election. a fundamentally different vision of how we move our country forward. i believe governor romney is a good man. loves his family, cares about

his faith. but i also believe when he said behind closed doors that 47% of the country considered themselves victims? who refused personal responsibility? think about who he was talking about. folks on social security who have worked all their lives. veterans, who sacrificed for this country. students who are out there trying to hopefully advance their own dreams, but also this country's dreams. soldiers who are overseas, fighting for us right now. people who are working hard every day, paying payroll taxes, gas taxes, but don't make enough income. i want to fight for them. that's what i have been doing the last four years. because if they succeed, i believe that the country succeeds. when my grandfather fought in world war ii, came back, got a

gi bill that allowed him to go to college, that wasn't a handout. that was something that advanced the entire country. and i want to make sure that the next generation has those same opportunities, and that's why i'm asking for your vote and another four years. >> president obama, governor romney, thank you for being here tonight. on that note, we have come to an end of this town hall debate. our thanks to the participants for their time and to the people of hofstra university for their hospitality. the next and final debate takes place monday night at lynn university in boca raton, florida. don't forget to watch. election day three weeks from today. don't forget to vote. good night. [ male announcer ] eligible for medicare?

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and now it is 53 minutes after the hour. i'm john berman along with zoraida sambolin. last night's presidential debate will be remembered as high drama. the two candidates were in your face and feisty. >> both president obama and mitt romney have plans to bring down the deficit. here's our reality check. >> both candidates were made in the corner stone of this election to talk about the deficit, the difference between how much money the government is spending and how much it is taking in in taxes and they both have talked about their plans in this debate. >> i'll get us on track to a balanced budget and i'm going to reduce the tax burden on middle income families. what's that going to do? help the families and create incentives to grow jobs again in this country.

>> if we are serious about reducing the deficit, if this is genuinely a moral obligation to the next generation, in addition to tough spending cuts, we've also got to make sure that the wealthy do a little bit more. >> this is the deficit right now. 1 trillion, 90 billion dollars if we all wanted to pay it off, every man, woman and child would have to kick in about $3500. that's a lot and each candidate says confidently i can reduce the deficit. how would they do that? well, first let's talk about what they agree on. they all say we have to contain the spending of the government, control it. we also have to rekri the tax code and get the economy moving again because that's going to produce money and revenue and really solve the problem. but beyond that, they don't agree on much. let's look at the romney plan first. if this were to represent everything he wants to spend money on and he needs this much to cover it, he knows he's not going to get it because he has a

deficit. so how does he deal with the deficit in he says he's going to do it with tax cuts. tax cuts initially will make the deficit worse. so he needs to offset them. he says he'll do that by looking at deductions and loopholes, things people use to avoid paying taxes. he says he won't go after the mortgage reduction or the health care deduction, things many middle class people rely on, at least he suggests he won't go after those, but that's the problem. the economists say if you grab up all the other deductions that you might put on wealthier people and put them all back in this pile, it's not going to be enough. you're going to end up eventually having to tax the middle class or watching the deficit just get bigger. at least based on the plan as they know it right now. barack obama has a different version of the same song. he's got all the things he wants to pay for. he also will not have all the money he needs for it with a deficit, too, and he says you can deal with it by taxing the wealthy. this is a popular plan with many voters, but it also has a

fundamental flaw. there are not that many wealthy people in the country. if you define wealthy as being people who individually make more than $200,000 a year, as he often does, for every one there is like that in the country, this is how many there are who don't make that much money. you would have to tax this person at a much higher rate than the white house is talking about to solve this problem and even then you probably wouldn't get enough money to really make up the deficit. the simple truth is both of the plans are woefully short on important details to tell us if they would really reduce the deficit. we need to hear more from both candidates. in the meantime, when they say i can reduce the deficit, all we can do is give that a grate of i for incomplete. >> that's so sad. following the debate supporters of the candidates make themselves available to reporters to put the best spin on their candidate's performance. here's a sampling from last

night. >> the president had a dominant performance tonight. he laid out very clearly where he wants to take the country, economically, his jobs plan, his plan to grow the economy based on the middle class. i think he exposed governor romney, his tax plan, the president said it's a sketchy deal and i think governor romney wilted under the scrutiny. >> president obama spent no time speaking of any specific plans for a second term. i thought one of the most telling question was when the voter said i voted for your fore years ago, why should i vote for you now? look at all the broken promises. >> i think the president overwhelmed mitt romney tonight with facts and with a vision for the future. >> the president was on the attack. he came out swinging and said he would do that. you can change your style but that doesn't change your record. and he didn't defend it tonight when mitt romney went through the litany of higher food stamps, unemployment zone. the president didn't have an answer. >> everyone has an opinion. of course, we expect the same after the third and final presidential debate next week.

it is 58 minutes after the hour right now. president obama and mitt romney wasting no time hitting the campaign trail after last night's long island debate. the president will make appearances today at cornell college in iowa and ohio university in athens, ohio. >> his gop scheduler will be in chesapeake and leesburg, virginia. >> the post-debate coverage continues on cnn with "early start." in the octagon -- >> governor romney says he has a five-point plan. governor romney doesn't have a five-point plan he has a one-point plan. >> why am i lowering classes in the middle class? under the last four years they have been buried. >> president obama and governor romney rumble in the town hall. this time each candidate gave as good as they got. >> is that what you're saying? >> please proceed, governor. >> and it got ugly. >> have you looked at your pension? mr. president, have you looked at your pension? >> i don't look at my pension. it is not as big as yours. this morning we go to the score cards, hear from the

voters and keep the candidates honest. >> that was not a question, that was a statement. in a special edition of "early start." good morning, i'm zoraida sambolin. >> i'm john burman. president obama fighting back from his first debate showing more energy and passion last night. mitt romney standing his ground attacking the president aggressively on the president's handling of the economy and in libya. >> here is how america scored it all. a cnn/orc poll of registered voter who is watch the debate give the edge to the president, 46% to 39%. >> dana bash is here in studio. according to the poll, voters thought obama did better