down and i promise to god you can put as much on it and no one is going to say anything. >> this is why i have 25 ketchup packets on my person at all time. i like to be ready to keep the peace should a condiment emergency arises. by the time the police arrived, the sandwich artist had left the building. this makes the second time we have heard about someone calling the police due to a sandwich based situation. roll the tape. >> i'm at grateful deli, and i specifically asked for little tucky and little, umm, ham, and a lot of cheese and a lot of mayonnaise, and they're giving me a hard time. i was wond ering if you could stop by. i was wondering -- >> you're calling 911 because you don't like the way that they're making your sandwich? >> exactly.

>> so don't buy it. >> great advice. 911 operator. if you don't like the way someone is making your sandwich, don't call 911. just don't buy it. when all else fails, speak softly and carry a ketchup bottle. we'll see you in an hour. "piers morgan tonight" starts right now. good evening. on a day when accused aurora shooter james holmes listened to testimony about his brutal massacre while family members in the courtroom sobbed, on a day when still traumatized students in newtown, connecticut, were sent to school on the first monday of the year, this country is grappling with gun violence like never before. here is my position loud and clear. i am in favor of a nationwide ban on semiautomatic assault weapons and high quantity magazines and require dealers to

run background checks on buyers at gun shows and i would like to see the president increase mental health funding for all americans who need it. these are entirely reasonable reactions to the outrages that have occurred in america over the last few months. tonight, i'll go head to head with a man who actually want to deport me for having these views. apparently, 104,000 americans are in agreement with him. first, a preliminary hearing is on the way for james holmes, charged with using a military style semiautomatic weapon, killing 12 people. tell me about what happened today. >> reporter: well, good evening, piers. this was the day where we first heard from the officers who first came into contact with james holmes the night of the shooting. these are officers we have not heard from tell their stories in their own words. it was very difficult for many of the family members and survivors who attended this

hearing. we spoke with several of them heading inand out of the courtroom throughout the day today and we talked to them about gun control issues that have been debated so fiercely here in the last few weeks in the united states. and we started off by talking with tom. his son alex was one of the victims gunned down in the aurora theater shooting back on july -- on the night of july 20th. he talked about assault rifles and what he thought should happen with them, and if they should be banned. listen to what he said. >> there's only one reason to use this weapon and that's to murder people. we probably should call them murder weapons and we probably should get them off the streets. >> people kill people. guns don't kill people. >> unless your job entitles you to having a gun, i fell like they should be illegal. >> my cousin is a cop, and he would tell me about kids walking around with guns. so i mean, access to guns is a little too lenient.

>> reporter: piers, a mix of opinions from many of the people we spoke to today who came to listen to this preliminary hearing today in colorado. >> joining me now, jessica watson who was in the courtroom in today's hearing. her cousin died protecting his girlfriend from the shooting. she joins us now. dave's nephew is one of those kills in the aurora theater. welcome to you both. let me start with you, jessica. it must have been a very difficult day for you and indeed for all of the relatives involved in the appalling incident. what was your feeling today as you sat in the courtroom watching the events? >> uh, it was definitely very sad. very traumatic to hear new detail details regarding the shooting and the position of, you know, where everybody was in the theater when their bodies were recovered. and also to just look around the

courtroom and to see the other family members and the amount of grief that everybody is still going through. >> when you saw the shooter up close as you did today, did it shock you even more that he was able to arm himself in the horrifying manner that he did? >> yes. and not only that, but you know, it was amazing to me the amount of ammunition he had. not only in the weapons that he used but also in his pockets and what was found on the floor and in the parking lot. >> let me turn to you, dave hoover. as i said, you're the uncle of aj. you have been active since the aurora shooting in trying to frame some new legislation here. tell me about what you would

really like to see happen. >> piers, i can't say how much i agree with your opinion and what you have stated previously. i appreciate you having your first amendment right, and i am glad you're speaking out because that's exactly what we need to do, is have a conversation, a reasonable conversation. this country needs to realize that we need to make sure that these guns are not in the hands of those who shouldn't have them. they need to be in the hands and an a rr-15 or an ar-16, same weapon, just different designation, needs to be in the hands of the police or military only. high capacity magazines have no place in the world of hunting. what we need to do is make sure people can protect themselves at home and protect their families, but we do not need to be throwing more guns on the streets to be used by criminals, and we need have a framework, at least something set in place that will tell our community and

our country this is not right. this is where we're going to live. guns do not need to be out there, like i can buy a loaf of bread. it's insane to do that. nobody wants to come in and say that if i'm a depressed individual going through a rough time in life, we're going to come take your guns away. but if you're talking to a therapist and you're saying i'm going to the theater or i'm going to church and i'm going to wreak havoc, that person doesn't need to have a gun or access to a gun. they should be having their background checked. anybody who is a reasonable gun owner, which i am. i hunt, i went hunting this year. i harvested my dear. i'm happy to go through any background check, and i expect any other gun owner in this country is going to go through the same background check that i am. >> dave, thank you very much for joining me. and indeed to you, jessica. anyone who has watched the show over the past few weeks knows i have taken a pretty strong stand on guns in america. it has led to a petition on the

white house official website, no less, entitled deport piers morgan for attacking the second amendment. more than 400,000 people have signed it. joining me now is one of the people behind the petition, alex jones. he hosts the alex jones show. >> thank you for having me. >> why do you want to deportm m? >> we did it as a way to bring attention to the fact that we have all these foreigners, he's the only guy who the the guns, so we did it to point out that this is globalism, and the mega banks that control the planet and brag they have taken over, brag they're going to get our guns as well. they have taken everybody's guns but the swiss and the american people. when they get our guns, they can have their world tyranny while the government buys 1.6 billion bullets, armored vehicles, predator drones, armed in u.s. skies, being used to arrest

people in north dakota. the second amendment isn't there for duck hunting. it's there to protect us from tyrannical government and street thugs. take the woman in india, the piece on cnn earlier i was watching during anderson cooper's show, didn't tell you the women of india have signed giant petitions to get firearms because the police can't and won't protect them. the answer is -- i have fbi crime statistics that come out of a year late, 2011, 20-plus percent crime drop in the last nine years. real violent crime because more guns means less crime. britain took the guns 15, 16 years ago. tripling of your overall crime. true we have a higher gun violence level, but overall, those men raped that woman to india to death with an iron rod 15 feet long. you can't ban the iron rods. they didn't do it, the tyrants did it. hitler took the guns, stalin

took the guns, chavez took the guns, and i'm here to tell you, 1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms. it doesn't matter how many lemmings you get on the street begging to have the guns taken. we will not relinquish them. do you understand? that why you're going to fail and the establishment know s no matter how much propaganda, they will rise again when you try to take our gun. my family was at the core on both sides because santa ana came to take the guns at gonzalez, texas. piers, don't try what your ancestors did before. come to america, i'll take you out shooting. you can become an american and join the republic. >> are you finished? >> yes, i am finished. you will not take my right. you go through background checks to get guns. how about prozac? that's a big sponsor, isn't it? that whole class of drugs. >> let me -- >> got to cut that off, don't you. the u.s. number one cause of

death is suicide now because they give people suicide mass murder pills. your answers give more answers to psychologists to get people to kill themselves. >> let's try to have a debate. >> i'm sick of this same old script, bud. >> that's fine, bud. how many gun murders were there in america last year? >> 11,448, and about 70% of those were gank relag related. how many people died from infections in hospitals? 198,000. >> how many gun murders were there in britain last year? >> how many great white sharks kill people every year but they're scared to swim? >> how many gun murders were there in britain? >> a very low amount. >> how many? >> only a few hundred. >> how many gun murders? >> i have the statistics. oh, wait, uk violent crime capital of europe. >> simple question. you're a very loud man.

>> you're asking me little factoids. >> they're not factoids. we're talking -- let me -- exactly my point. >> you have hoards of people burning down cities. they arrest people in england, if they defend themselves, that's on record. my god, you have a total police state. everybody is fleeing the country. you had to flee, bud. you fled here. why don't you go back and face the charges for the hacking scandal? >> answer this question -- >> why did you get fired from the daily order. you're a hatchet man. i'm going to say this here. you think you're a tough guy. have me back with a boxing ring and i'll wear red, white, and blue, and you'll wear your jolly roger. >> let's try again. how many gun murders were there in britain last year? >> how many chimpanzees can dance on a head of a pin? i already went over those

statistics. >> you know the answer? you said hundreds. >> it's very low. >> you said hundreds. it's actually 35. against 11,000. do you understand the difference in 11,000 and 35? >> yeah, england wants to ban knives now because people are getting stabbed. the knife doesn't kill people. the gun doesn't kill people. >> do you understand? >> do you understand you're not going to pull on america's heart strings. they know your script. you're not going to get our guns. by the way, you say we only want to take the semiautos. when they're not even used in a fraction of the crimes. you can pull those numbers up, okay. hold on. >> let me ask you one question, which weapon was predominantly used in the aurora theater shooting? >> an m-4. >> a semiautomatic weapon. >> yes. but statistically, very low. >> do you agree it was the single biggest shooting in terms

of america, in terms of people hit by a shooter. do you know that? >> i believe there were others -- over 30. >> this was the single biggest mass shooting -- >> listen, there have been bombings of wall street. why can't -- we trust them to fly the planes. >> you had a lot to say. >> my fact is the second amendment is sack rosank and you're not getting it. do you know what weapon was used in the mall shooting? >> i understand that the inhinters who play the shoot 'em up games -- because there's criminals, i don't lose my rights. >> just answer the question. do you know what the weapon used was? >> let me ask you a question. i have the fbi statistics -- listen, that the so-called semiautos. >> when we come back, try and answer my question. >> all you are going to do and play little factoid questions.

overall driem has gone up 20%.

back now with alex jones a

man who says i should be deported for my stance on guns. here is how it's going to work. it's entirely down to you. i'm going to ask you questions. in the spirit of a proper debate. you have had a lot to say on the show, a lot of it aimed at me. >> it's not a debate. you're in the show. you have your note cards. i gave you fbi statistics that violent crime and gun crime is down over 20%. >> alex, let me ask you this -- >> you want to go to little factoids. anybody can pull those up. do you have a body guard? why do you have body guards? >> i don't have body guards. >> i have seen you on the news with them. why does dianne feinstein tell "60 minutes" she plans to take mr. and mrs. america's guns. you want to disarm all of america. >> no, i don't. >> dianne feinstein does. >> let me clarify for you -- >> first you register, then you

confiscate. give me your crew cards and i'll answer your questions for you. >> what was the wpen used at sandy hook? >> i have already gone over it. >> we haven't talked about sandy hook. >> it's a 224. they're using a low percentage. but you guys, people wouldn't go swimming because the movie "jaws" because great white sharks kill 5 people a year. you're trying to scare people. >> the same type of weapon was used in the last three mass shootings. >> and hitler used semiautoma c semiautomatics to kill people. why about fast and furious? why did our government send guns to mexico? why did they blow up -- >> alex, i get accused when i get you guys on of talking over you, of being rude. i'm trying to be civil. you have got to try and answer some of the questions, right? here is my issue for you. why do people need, civilians

need an ar-15 type assault weapon? >> i said statistically, they're using in a low amount of crimes. that's an fbi act. >> but they ahave been used in the last three mass shootings. >> because they advertise in the media. everybody knows if someone jumps off the empie state building, they put security out there because there are copy cats. go commit suicide by killing a bunch of kids and use this because this is what the army uses. >> why do they need them? >> to protect us. a study shows they killed 290,000 people. google it. >> should everyone in america have an ar-15 if they want one? >> statistically, where there's m more guns, there's lower crime. >> the 23 richest countries, you have -- >> america was born on guns and whiskey. it's true we're a violent

society. >> right. america has the most guns -- >> have you seen the fbi numbers? knives, bats, rocks, kill many, many times more. >> alex, let's talk about the guns. >> it's not the rock, it's not the knife. when a mother chops her kids up with a cleaver -- >> tell me -- >> why don't you want to get rid of drugs. america's number one cause of death is suicide. >> you accuse me of attacking the second amendment of the constitution. >> i want to get people off pills that ininsert says will make you commit suicide and kill people. i want to get to the real culprit, suicide pills, mass murder pills. >> let me ask a question. >> first time anyone has heard this, by the way. >> your belief, if i'm wrong, under the second amendment, your real concern is you will be overrun by a tyrannical regime.

>> look at mexico. total gun ban for the citizens. highest crimeerate rate in the. total gun ban for the citizens. switzerland has the lowest gun rate in europe. america h >> let me ask you -- >> it's brains. it's people. >> i'm trying to get inside your brain. >> if you punched me right now, it would not be your first but your brain. >> let me get inside your brain. i'm serious, you have a very, very big platform. you're airing on 63 networks. >> i'm on like 140 stations. xm. >> over millions -- >> statistics are posted right now. >> who do you believe was behind 9/11? >> absolutely know, i have the police on cnn saying get back, they're going to blow up seven. i have bbc reporters. i have the proof. i heard them on cbs radio. >> who? >> they announced they blew up

the towers on cbs radio. new yorkers are saw it and heard it. >> who do you believe was behind it? the american government? >> criminal elements, the same ones who staged the mass shootings of operation gladio. ooh, the cia doesn't like this. >> you mean president bush and his administration were behind 9/11? >> i mean even mainstream news reported that the hijackers were ord eered to be allowed into th united states. >> so the bush administration was part of the conspiracy? >> to murder -- i can speak in an accent as well. he fire bombed his own country to bring in martial law in germany in 1933. governments have staged terror attacks throughout history or allowed terrorists to attack as a pretext to invade --

>> how many gun do you own? >> i probably own more than 50 fi firearms. many have increased in value two or three, maybe four times. i sleep very comfortably outside austin, texas, knowing i can defend my family. >> this is the man who wants to deport me from the country. >> it's to point out you're a foreigner, a red coat, here telling us what to do. >> whatever. >> go back where they took the guns if you don't like it. tragically, their buddy got sacked by blackouts. but it's our tradition! that's roughing the card holder. but with the capital one venture card you get double miles you can actually use. [ cheering ] any flight, anytime. the scoreboard doesn't lie. what's in your wallet? hut! i have me on my fantasy team. ♪

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someone has agreed to defend me from deportation. you defended john lennon, no less. you saw the encounter with alex jones. he's the guy behind the petition to have me deported. he's really one of the reasons i'm so concerned about the lack of gun control in america. he's a man who owns 50 weapons. he has sort of a path logical view about it. he seems unhinged to me. the irony of these gun rights guys saying to me that i'm rude to them won't be lost on my regular viewers, i'm sure. i try to stay calm, and really there's no other way to deal with him because he's sort of this ranting guy who doesn't want anybody to grab his guns, but no sense of awareness about the wider issue of a particular type of weapon being used to commit these mass outrages. >> we lawyers refer to people like that not as witnesses but as exhibits.

he was an exhibit, like a piece of evidence. you see him speaking and you say to yourself, i don't want that man to have a gun. i wouldn't feel comfortable having an argument with him in his home where he had access to his 50 weapons, and if he got really mad at something i said or if i disputed his contentions or i told him he was lying about the fbi statistics, and that he was lying about the claim more guns equal less crime, i would be worried he would grab for his semiautomatic to try to resolve it. >> what really would concern me about somebody like him is not the influence he has, a growing influence, as he boasted. he's got millions of people listening to him. some of his youtube rants have got tens of millions of people watching them. and he ferments this fear of a tyrannical regime, and that is why everyone in america needs to be armed with ar-15s, and it's the stuff of nonsense, isn't it. >> >> it's much more dangerous

than nonsense. he was essentially comparing president bush to adolf hitler. he was saying somebody, the criminal elements within our banks, the bloombergs. >> you can't dismiss him as just a crackpot because millions of americans tune in to him now on a daily basis and believe what he says. that is why to me he is a very relevant guest here and he perfectly exemplifies the problem. >> but the reason you perform such a great service by having him on is he usually preaches to his own little paranoid choir. people who listen to him or are listening to him for entertainment purposes the way i sometimes listen to rush limbaugh or because they really believe him. >> this is a little exchange that happened at the end here that others haven't seen. >> i'm here to tell you, 1776 will commence again if you try to take our firearms. doesn't matter how many lemmings you get out there on the street begging for them to have their guns taken. we will not relinquish them.

do you understand? that's why you're going to fail and the establishment knows no matter how much propaganda, the republic will rise again when you attempt to take our guns. >> when you have this debate on the east coast or even the west coast, i find a lot of americans come up to me and they're totally behind what i'm trying to do. it's a very specific thing. it's not about taking away his right to defend himself or his family at home or to grab anybody's guns other than these military-style assault weapons. he doesn't want to hear the nuances of the debate. he couldn't tell me how many people get murdered -- >> he doesn't want to hear it. >> one thing i would suggest -- everybody hates commissions, but it's time for us to have a commission of ten great distinguished scientists to put lie to this notion of more guns, less crime. i know the statistics, i know the fbi data, i teach it, but most americans believe the nra propaganda. the nra buys scholars.

they buy statistics. it's just wrong. >> lies. total lies. britain has strong gun control, for example. and averages 35 gun murders a year. america has very lax gun control and has 11,000. britain is about a fifth the size of america. i can do simple math. japan has the toughest gun control in the world. they have two or three murders a year. australia had a massacre in the '90s. they brought in a ban on all main high-powered guns and assault rifles and so on. they have had no mass shootings since. this is not rocket science. it's there to be had. the problem is that the nra, and i'm sure mr. jones is a big fan of theirs and probably helps them. >> he probably thinks they're way, way,way too much part of the establishment. he's way, way to the right of the nra. >> the political power the nra now wield means that politicians are too coward to say anything. i have people say to me, you're so brave. hot is brave about wanting to stop 20 more children getting

murders? >> i don't think it's the nra power. it's people like us, not the two of us, but americans who care about guns aren't doing enough to make our case to the public. >> why not? >> because we think it's their issue. we have given that issue over to them because they have lobbyists they pay money. in the end, the people determine the outcome. and it's wrong, and it's racist and it's bigoted to say that guns are quintessentially american. they may represent a part of america, but my grandparents who came over from poland and live in brooklyn, new york, are just as much americans, people who came over from ireland, people who came over from italy, we're just as much americans. we live on the coast and we have a right to define the america we want to live in and we have the obligation to win politically, to vote for people to put gun control as a high priority. they put it as a number one priority. we who favor gun control put it as a 16th or 17th priority. so it's our fault, not the nra's fault. >> and the important thing of getting people like alex jones

on the show is to hear him actually say that he believes president bush, the american administration under him, were responsible for 9/11, and that is why he wants americans armed, to defend themselves against that kind of murderous tyranny, and it's the most dangerous rhetoric i have heard in a very long time. >> it's very important he be exposed on your show because decent americans don't want to be associated with that kind of paranoid view of american history. they don't want to believe that our government is capable of engaging in the kind of tyranny that he fears. you know, government does a great deal of good for people. yes, there are reasons to constrain government. that's why we have the bill of rights. the second amendment is part of the bill of rights. justice scalia who wrote the opinion said very clearly the second amendment has reasonable regulation to prevent people like him from getting guns, for prevention of people with

criminal records from getting guns. we have to do more to fulfill what the real meaning of the second amendment is, reasonable access to guns for self protection and for hunting. and there's no room in america for the semiautomatic, automatic, and others kind of weapons that are simply designed to create mass havoc. >> i believe an increasing majority of americans do not agree with the likes of alex jones. i think they realize a tipping point has been reached. when you have a movie theater shot up, and then a school, an elementary school, enough is enough. and they mustn't let the agenda be driven by people like him. >> and when the nra gets up and says the solution to it is to arm teachers in elementary schools and give kids guns -- >> it's lunacy. >> we don't want to live there. >> thank you so much. when we come back, a man who truly does believe the solution to gun violence is yet more guns. sheriff joe arpaio on why he wants armed volunteers outside schools.

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i am not someone who believes that having multiple armed guards in every school is something that will enhance the learning environment, and that's our first responsibility inside of school, is the learning environment. you don't want to make this an armed camp for kids. i don't think that's a positive

example for children. we should be able to figure out some other ways to enhance safety. >> new jersey governor chris christie. my next guest says armed guards are exactly what american schools need. in the wake of sandy hook elementary school massacre, sheriff joe arpaio has called for armed volunteers to patrol about 50 schools in his jurisdiction. welcome to you, sheriff. >> how are you doing, piers? >> explain to me why you believe that the answer to these gun massacres is to have a lot more guns. >> well, you know, i'm not going to get into that. we have many, many laws pertaining to guns already. we ought to enforce those laws, but i'm taking immediate action. i have a volunteer posse made up of 3,500 armed, well trained, 100 hours of training. we just finished another program at the malls. very successful. so why not utilize and mobilize a posse, which a sheriff can do,

in the perimeters? i don't believe in putting the posse in the schools, but protect the kids and teachers by outside patrol, visible deterants and keep the bad guys out of the schools. >> at columbine, you were aware there was an armed sheriff, 12 students got killed and a teacher. ft. hood, which is one of the most protected army bases in the world, 13 people were killed, 29 wounded. virginia tech, there were a number of armed security people. why are on earth do you think these patrolmen, as you put it, who you have taken off the streets and given training to, could do any better? >> we don't pick them off the streets. they're well trained and they have the authority under the sheriff. nothing is perfect. look at norway. you remember the massacre in norway that don't even allow guns. so you never can say everything is perfect. but you sure can take action, try to deter any operation.

don't surrender. don't just talk about it, that every politician seems to be doing. get something done, so that's what i'm doing. >> what about this quaint idea, what about taking guns off the streets rather than flooding the streets with more guns? >> well, i don't know. we have a second amendment, as you know, you have been through this, many conversations about this. you have a first amendment, there's a second amendment. but guns do not kill people. we just had two murders, my office investigated, by knives. should we take all the knives away? where do you draw the line? >> here's my point, sheriff. here's my point, which i tried to make to alex jones, but he was ranting too loudly to really focus on what i was saying. >> don't take it out on me. >> no, no, i won't. in britain, we had a very similar massacre in 1996. as a result, as i'm sure you know, a national handgun ban was

brought in and it also banned all automatic and most semiautomatic rifles as well. it would have banned the weapons used at aurora, at sandy hook, at the oregon shopping mall, and others. since then, there has been no single shooting at a school in britain, and there have been two smaller massacres in that period, both by people who actually had licenses for these arms. but in the main, britain has been almost gun murder free, and it averages about 35 gun murders a year, as i tried to tell alex jones. in america, where you have 300 million firearms in circulation, and you have extraordinary lax gun control, you have between 11,000 and 12,000 gun murders a year. britain is just a fifth of the size of america. five times 35 is not 11,000. so clearly, america has a particular problem. it has by far the greatest number of gun murders of the 23

richest countries in the world. again, my question to you really is this, why do people keep propagating a myth that more guns means less gun murder? >> but piers, why are you comparing your country with the united states? i believe we have 350 million people that live in this country. i was in london, for your information. i spent a week with bbc, they were following me around on how we operate our jails. but i brought up the gun issue. the media didn't even want to address the gun issue when i said the bobbys should be armed, too, because things are changing in england, but nobody wants to talk about it in england. which is really strange. you're talking about it, i'm glad you are. >> it's not that strange. the situation hasn't changed because the number of gun murders hasn't changed. we can talk about lots of things wrong with my country. there's terrible problems with

knife crime, with obesity, with gang violence. all sorts of social ills. i'm not claiming my country is perfect at all. i can tell you one thing that we got right. when a load of school children were massacred by a gunman with a gun, we banned guns in that country. i'm proud of those politicians and of the public for rising as one, left to right, and getting something done that has meant there's been no school shootings since. there probably will be in the future, but gby god, we made it defr difficult. what i don't see in america, is any collective will to try to make it more difficult for people who are disturbed to get their hands on these ar-15 style military style assault weapons, which are killing machines. >> well, i think smith and wesson six-cylinders kill, too. so you know, this is the second amendment. we do follow the constitution in this country. and that's the way it is.

if you don't like it, go change the laws. i'm here to enforce the laws. i'm doing the best i can to enforce the laws and protect the people of this county, maricopa county. if you want to change laws and everything else, okay. find a way. i know you're going to say something about this. but tomorrow, tomorrow is the year anniversary where my deputy sheriff was gunned down with an assault rifle. you know what i'm going to do? i'm going to arm every one of my deputy sheriffs with automatic and semiautomatic weapons. they're going to defend themselves against anybody, anybody that tries to kill my deputies. whether it's with a gun, a knife, or a bomb. >> okay. sheriff, that's entirely your prerogative, as you say, until the laws change, you are perfectly entitled to arm everybody you like in your jurisdiction with an ar-15, and if that's your decision, you

think that's the answer to america's gun problem, that is entirely a matter for you. thank you for joining me. >> thank you. >> now some breaking news. the white house has just responded to the petition to deport me for my stand on guns. from press secretary jay carney, i quote, the white house responds to all petitions that cross the threshold, which is 25,000, and we will respond to this one. in the meantime, it's worth remembering that freedom of expression is a bedrock principle in our democracy. >> there you have it, not deported just yet. when we come back, america's leading political family, the kennedys, know all too well about gun violence. they're here to talk about that and how this country deals with mental illness. what are you doing? nothing. are you stealing our daughter's school supplies and taking them to work? no, i was just looking for my stapler and my... this thing. i save money by using fedex ground and buy my own supplies. that's a great idea. i'm going to go...

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we have a completely cracked mentally ill system that's got these monsters walking the streets, and we've got to deal with the underlying causes and

underlying causes and connections if we're ever going to get to the truth of this country and stop this. >> the nra's wayne la peaer and they have a lot to say on both of these issues, patrick kennedy. welcome to you both. two kennedys. i can't think of two better people to ask about this debate and your reaction i guess initially to the interview i had with alex. what did you feel? >> it was disheartening, i think. just to see the anger there and he kept talking about the second amendment, the second amendment, it should be revisited every 20 years, to see if it is still appropriate. i mean, this is something that was written a long time ago, and he probably doesn't know what the real intent of the second amendment was, so for him to quote this and just the absolute

vitteral is there is really disheartening. >> i was just disturbed, disturbed as a human being that this is what our civil discourse has come to. what makes our country so great is it we're about passing power peacefully and not violently. in my last year as a member of congress, i would say perhaps half of the members of congress had to live wearing bullet proof vests and had armed guards. >> really? >> during the aftermath of obama care when there were the president was being held in eff effigy and these comments were blocking members of congress from being able to go and vote and you may recall that and people like john beau wisconsin were being called racial epithets. this wasn't isolated. this was happening in our

nation's capital and around the country. whether it is guns or the issue of mental health or anything that is a hot button issue, where we can't talk to one another, and that i think is the more disruptive, disturbing thing. i felt threatened when he was threatening you. the fact that we're not thinking about one another in those ways, he was assaulting your human dignity. >> i mean, personally i never felt threatened by him. what i felt was it was one of those things we will let him talk because getting inside the mind of a man who has millions of people that listen to him every week and believe what he says, there is sort of leading commentator in american society actually saying the american government under president bush ordered 9/11 -- i mean, this is the stuff of madness. >> it is scary. i think the underlying thing is when you are talking about the

guns with being able to be purchased by people who have underlying mental illness, and i have written this book that is about addiction and 50 to 70% of the people that present with addictive disease or mental illness have the other, so we're talking about really ill folks who are able to get weapons of mass destruction really. >> and that's what these weapons are. this is what i find so disturbing about the debate. peel like alex shout so loudly and so regularly they cloud the debate and frame it in the way they would like it to be. they're trying to grab our guns, second amendment, all of this stuff. i don't want to change the second amendment. i don't want to change an american's right to bear arms in their home to defend people. i want to get rid of the killing machine assault weapons off the street. get hid of them. >> when you had the sheriff say guns don't kill people, people kill people yet try killing that many people in such a short amount of time with a hammer or knife.

that just shows how -- >> we know in the same week as sandy hook a mad man in china attacked a school and stabbed 22 children. they all lived. that's all you need to know. had he had a gun, they would all be dead. of course guns kill. that is their only purpose. >> i also think patrick and i come from a family where gun violence definitely affected us. >> of course. >> and it affected the people immediately but it affects a family for generations. people that have been gunned down in these places like aurora and sandy hook, those people will be affected for generations, and to see the lack of compassion by folks who are demanding their right to be able to have these guns, for those that are suffering is disconcerting. >> are you surprised following the assassinations of john f. kennedy, of bobby kennedy, that

we are in a position in america now where these kind of lawless mass shootings are happening with regularity and no one is doing much about it? >> well, as i said, i think that the lack of discourse so that that is really what's offensive in our country where we should be able to debate our problems without impuning the integrity of the people who have positions, and i think we need to have a for fundamental discussion because our whole democratic stm is falling apart as a country. we cannot understand and bridge the divide between this and that leaves us to fight each other and look at in an an tag nightsing way of each other as enemies. i think that's a fundamental problem. i think this gun issue is sparking this, but you can see all around, our democracy is in peril right now and it is that kind of fear, vit tril, paranoia substituting for debate. >> and very real consequences because what happens as we saw in december is america then has

a surge in sales of these assault weapons and ammunition. i could talk to you all night about it. it is a terrific book. recover to live, kick any habit, manage any addiction, christopher kennedy lawson, great to see you. great to see you again. >> god bless. >> we'll be right back. and a choice. starts n take tylenol or take aleve, the #1 recommended pain reliever by orthopedic doctors. just two aleve can keep pain away all day. back to the news.