busch is watering down their beer to save money. other beers are named as well. namely mick lob namely michelob, king cobra, natural ice and busch ice. bish b usc h ice drinkers are the best. you can almost hear fraternity brothers silently saying, dude. an hheuser busch employees say is standard to water down the beers. they say, our beers are in full compliance with all alcohol labeling laws. we are proud of how we brew our beers which make them popular all over the world. >> i'm not much of a drinker of anything, really, and if you asked people, they would say, of

course those beers are watery. but this claim that budweiser, the king of beers, is watered down? it's kind of a big deal. cnn had to get someone on the taste. the obvious person for a taste test? wolf blitzer. >> all right, i'm sorry, that wasn't wolf blitzer, of course, that was frank the tank from d "old school." i get the two mixed up all the time. if you ask wolf nicely, he just might show you his six-pack. there is one way to make sure you're getting all the sweet, sweet alcohol you want. just make it yourself. it's like i always say, you can't go wrong with some good

tonight i promised you i would stay on this, and i meant it. guns in america. >> it will be okay, and it was not okay. >> hi, emotions as the senate takes on the assault weapons ban. >> if you think we're going to do paperwork prosecutions, you're wrong. >> just about the one person between you and an ar-15, senator dianne feinstein. plus, graphic new testimony, the scene from "law and order". >> yes, always. >> on dershowitz, marcia clark, and jodi arias. and what was placed on the job? yahoo!'s chief builds a nursery in her own office, is this the way to break the glass ceiling? good evening, the senate is locked and loaded tonight,

taking a look at the most explosive and divisive controversial issue, guns, you know i don't want to out law guns, just the ones that are the most dangerous. here is an exchange on the guns between senator lindsey graham and edward flynn. >> if it is such an important issue, why aren't we prosecuting people who fail the background check, and there are 15 questions there. they're not hard to understand if you're filling out the form. so i'm a bit frustrated that we say one thing, how important it is, but in the real world we do absolutely nothing to enforce the laws on the books. >> just for the record, from my perspective -- >> how many cases have you made? >> you know what? it doesn't matter. it is a paper thing, i want to finish the answer, i want to stop 76,000 people from buying

guns -- buying guns illegally, if you think we're going to do paperwork prosecutions, you're wrong. >> joining me now, dianne feinstein, welcome, senator, tell me about what happened today. it seemed very emotional. >> it was very emotional. it began with the testimony of neil heslin, the father of a youngster who was the light of his life. who was killed. and it was very emotional. and then dr. begg, who was a trauma doctor, who took care of some of the young people, who talked with us about what these weapons do. how they tear apart small bodies. and some interesting confrontations between senator and a great and awesome chief of police of milwaukee, i thought. really a cop's cop. who really knew what it is like on the streets. and i think this is one of the issues, piers, that people say,

i have an ar-15, and i take good care of it. and i say to them, no problem, but when you have the grieveance killer, when they carry out a weapons crime, and when they can carry clips up to 100 rounds that nobody can disarm them, that they can go out and just slaughter people. and when it happens to 6-year-olds, it is time for this country to take action. and i think as a matter of public policy it is right to say weapons of war, weapons that are designed to kill large numbers of people in close combat don't belong on the streets of our cities. >> i mean, i couldn't agree with you more, as you know, but there are critics out there who say you haven't got a cat in hell's chance of getting this through, that no way is there going to be an assault weapons ban, which i

find very disspiriting. are you just going to take that or is there a genuine prospect? >> i have walked into crime scenes, i have seen police out-gunned. a crime scene with these weapons is not like it is on tv. there is blood and matter just spread all over the place. it is terrible. and people -- their bodies get hacked apart. i think the time has come to say enough is enough. and if if can win this, i don't know. but if the people of america stand up, every single poll taken has shown that more than a majority of people want this assault weapons legislation passed. the nra is very heavy. they lobby heavy. members may be frightened. but i say it is time to stand up and do what is right for this country. >> i want to play just a clip from neil heslin, interviewed

him last night. he is an incredibly inspiring man, so simple and eloquent in what he says. >> it was 9:04 when i dropped jesse off. the school clock -- jesse gave me a hug and a kiss at that time, and said good-bye, i love you. he stopped, and he said i love mom, too. that was the last i saw of je e jesse. as he ducked around the corner. prior to that when he was getting out of the truck he hugged me and held me. and i can still feel that hug and the pat on the back. he said everything is going to be okay, dad. it is all going to be okay. and it was not okay. >> i mean, senator, it is

heartbreaking listening to him. but it makes me so angry, too, that somebody like neil heslin, as he said last night, he believes in the second amendment and the american's right to own a gun and defend themselves. but he cannot understand why the aftermath to a mass shooting, why his son was blown to pieces by a military-style assault rifle, america is not racing to bring in a control, to stop the children from facing that kind of slaughter. >> well, that is right. every one of those children had between three and 11 bullets in them. and the time has come. and america and the mothers and the fathers have to stand up. and they have to say enough is enough. neil heslin breaks your heart. i mean, this youngster was the light of his life. every promise, every dream lay ahead of him. and all of these children were, to their parents. and they're all gone. and you have these brave, young women who went in there, who put

their arms out. who protected them. who got riddled with bullets. is this the america we want to live in? it is not the america i want to live in. >> senator, i want to read you what wayne lapierre from the nra said about you personally, on saturday night. dianne feinstein commented she has had a gun bill on her desk, waiting for the right time. so people can be persuaded to her political agenda, so on and so on. very patronizing, very insulting from a man who it seems to me, his modus operandi, seems to be the sale of more guns. >> they have made it difficult for everybody, for the atf, the btf to do their jobs. they have made the law difficult to do proper research.

all so that manufacturers of weapons can produce more. and then they press all of this. so it is a gun culture. and that gun culture is letting bad things happen. >> well, you're doing a fantastic job on this, senator, and i absolutely applaud you. >> piers, thank you, you have been wonderful. thank you so much for your help. it is uphill all the way. >> senator feinstein, as always, thank you very much, indeed. >> you're very welcome, thank you. joining me, dr. william begg, who was in the emergency room on the day of the sandy hook elementary school massacre. thank you for coming on the show. you had extraordinary testimony today. you showed everybody basically how guns really work in the real world. and i want to show a part of what you did today right now. >> looks like we have a well-placed hit. get that out of the way. you can barely see it. there is the point of entry and it did not exit the block.

this is the right side of the block, and it is turned upside down. we just have a very narrow channel where it came in, three and a half to four inches, i noticed it was probably a half in deep and about a quarter inch wide. here is the point of impact. didn't even knock it off the table. not even close. see how that opened up. and that is the real story. is look at this massive cavity in this area. >> you demonstrated the difference between the handguns and the assault rifles, do you think people were surprised in what you were telling them? >> i think people don't really realize the difference between a handgun injury and assault weapon injuries. i quite honestly quite sure i could have given more vivid testimony. when it is an assault weapons injury, the bullet explodes

inside the person's body. while it would be inappropriate to discuss the specific injuries related to newtown children, you know, when i go to trial symposiums every year, and i'm able to see the injuries from assault rifles from afghanistan, those injuries are horrific. yes, there is a huge difference between a handgun injury and an assault weapons injury. >> yeah, i mean, i heard today, vice president joe biden saying he had seen material related to sandy hook, which was simply too strong for the american public to be able to tolerate if you told them about it. and from what i had been told by other surgeons who do these kinds of things, when these kids were hit by bullets, they were creating holes the size of baseballs. this is what a person did with the ar-15 assault rifle.

>> people have regular handgun injuries, most of them make it to the emergency room and we have a chance. when they have assault weapons injuries, most of them don't make it to the emergency room because the injuries are so horrific. and relating to the injuries, even one or two are horrific to the body, they go inside the body and basically explode the tissue. and so to tell society what happened at the sandy hook with the 3 to 11 bullets per body would be just beyond decorum, but it would certainly paint a picture per vice president joe biden's comments. >> yeah, and i just -- i don't personally think we should sugar coat it. the appa appauling nature, particularly in washington, where the cowardly politicians are worried about their

positions and worried about upsetting the nra, they need to be told right in their faces exactly what happened to these children with the ar-15 rifle. >> and some of the centers were saying there is no real data with the ban on assault weapons making a difference, but there is clear data in the united kingdom and australia, in 1996, they had legislation in australia, and great britain, and after that, australia has had no mass murders. it takes a few years to work, but it absolutely works. and that was the point that i was trying to get across today. >> well, you got it over incredibly powerfully and i was so glad you did what you did. because it is the reality check that people need. you know, this is not a game. these are killing machines that belong in military scenarios,

nothing to do with civilian life. dr. begg, thank you for joining us, i appreciate it. >> i appreciate the time. >> many americans are demanding stricter gun controls, and many are screaming absolutely not. believing it will make crime worse and america less safe. joining me, the author of "at the brink." you heard the very compelling testimony from not least, neil heslin who lost his son from sandy hook, and dr. begg, revealing in very graphic detail upon the hill today exactly what these weapons can do. and is your belief still that the only answer to america's gun violence is more guns? >> well, i think we all want to try to keep criminals from going and getting guns. the question is what is going to work and what will actually make the situation worse off? the doctor's discussion right now was very moving, unfortunately, i think it is a little bit misleading, rather

than classifying things as handguns and assault weapons. it would have been nice if he had just talked about rifles, because that is what these assault weapons are. if he wants to go and talk about a hunting rifle that can go and do the same damage, to talk about assault weapons didn't bring anything to the discussion. the true assault weapons are designed to wound, have the bullet go straight through the body. and the reason for that is we have learned over time, the military has learned that if you go and wound enemy soldiers, you pin down many more of their troops to take care of their wounded comrades. >> how many, mr. lott -- sorry to interrupt you, how many children at sandy hook were wounded and not killed? >> well, obviously, they were all killed. but i am not sure what the point is going to be there. it took 20 minutes between the first phone call.

>> well, the specific point i'm making to you is the ar-15 used against them killed those children, as you know and caused absolutely devastating damage to the poor bodies, 3 to 11 bullets each. and i'm told by experts that have seen the damage that it caused that it created holes the size of baseball bats. that is why people want those banned. the rights of those children, to me, supersede any other rights in america, to me, do they to you some. >> would the wounds have been any different if they had used a hunting rifle that fired the same size bullets, the same .22 pre-caliber bullets, would it have been any different if it was a hunting rifle? >> how many bullets can the average hunting rifle fire in a minute, do you know? >> the semiautomatic hunting rifles can fire exactly the same number of bullets per minute as your ar-15, because the ar-15,

functionally is exactly the same -- >> but mr. lott, this is the whole point, the whole reason why you have to also ban the high-capacity magazines. because the point of doing all this is not just to annoy people like you, who believe it hurts your rights. >> i never argued that. >> your argument has always been, more guns, less crime. i have always argued with you passionately, based on the evidence from australia, britain, japan, other countries who brought in tough gun control it is simply not true, is it? >> no. you just made multiple points there. the first one you said, again, the point of magazines, somehow differing assault weapons versus hunting rifles. >> nobody needs a high-capacity magazine to hunt, do they? nobody needs that. no hunter has told me -- >> i can give you --

>> since we last spoke, many people go hunting, none of them has said to me they need a high-capacity magazine or an ar-15 magazine, that is not hunting. >> would you mind. >> so if you remove hunting from the equation. >> i heard what you said. >> as a purpose for these weapons. >> no, no, two points here, one is these guns may look a certain way on the outside, but they're exactly the same as a hunting rifle. people use ar-15s to go and hunt for the same reason they go and use relatively small caliber hunting rifles to go hunt. it is exactly the same gun, looks different on the outside, if you want to ban all rifles, let's talk about that. as i said you brought up many points. i just want to mention to you i can find ten cases without trying too hard, i found them in december, where people use -- fired more than ten shots to

defend themselves against people who had broken into their homes. you had cases where three or four burglars had broken in at one time, and been able to fire multiple shots is beneficial. >> i'm aware there are some cases like that. more so where there have been numerous mass shootings. and you're aware of that, too. let's come back and continue the debate. when we come back, how many dead bodies have you seen that have actually been shot by these ar-15s in your life? because you are a guns expert. only gaviscon® forms a protective barrier that helps block stomach acid from splashing up- relieving the pain quickly. try fast, long lasting gaviscon®. omnipotent of opportunity. you know how to mix business... with business. and you...rent from national. because only national lets you choose any car in the aisle. and go. you can even take a full-size or above.

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assaulti . juesse's fatal shot was in his forehead. it went in -- right at his hairline, exited directly behind that -- jesse looked that coward, adam lanza in his eyes, and looked at the barrel. jesse didn't run or turn his back. that was the fatal shot that killed jesse. >> neil heslin, father of sandy hook student jesse, mr. lott, do you know how many mass shootings there have been in the last 30 years in america? >> i mean, i have written papers on it. i couldn't tell you exactly over 30 years. >> it is about 63 -- >> well, i think there is more

than that. >> well, it may be as many as 65, including this year, this is up to the end of 2012, mass shooting being defined by the fbi as more than four people shot dead. so if we agree on that as the terminology -- >> the weapons article -- >> look, let me ask you a question, do you know what weapons were used in those mass shootings? >> yeah, i mean, there has been a range of weapons used, everything from handguns to assault weapons, rifles, the point is -- >> there have been -- there have been 71 semiautomatic handguns, 28 rifles, 23 revolvers, 21 shot guns, but here is the point, of the 123 weapons used in the mass shootings, 62 would be out lawed by the weapons ban, this is a very specific campaign to try and remove from public civilian usage and availability the type of weapon being used to

slaughter americans. what i don't understand from all the expertise that you bring to this, is i'm -- i don't want to put words in your mouth. but of all the 35 proposals president obama has put forward, which ones would you actually agree with in terms of introducing more gun safety in america? >> before i get to that question, which i will get to. i want to go and deal with the points that you were just raising. and that was, it is not me. you look at the national academy of sciences in 2004, they looked at -- they looked at all the academic studies that have been done. and they could not find any evidence that the types of bans that you're talking about have reduced any type of violent crime. you look at the studies funded by the clinton administration. they could not find any evidence that those types of bans -- >> let me give you some, let me give you some. let me give you some, mr. lott, you just said what you said, let me answer you. in 1996, as you know there was a

horrible mass shooting in australia, 35 people killed. they brought in extensive gun control and bans in australia, in the ten-year period leading up to that there were 18 mass shootings in australia, do you know how many there have been since the gun ban has been brought in? >> depends how you define them, i know how you define them. >> very easy to define, more than four people. do you know how many were in australia since they brought in the gun ban? >> 1996. >> you know how many in new zealand? >> how many -- >> you're going to say searzero >> how many mass shootings have there been in a country before they had a massacre and changed their laws -- how many of their been since 1996? >> now you're going to let me talk for a second. >> answer the question. >> i just did. >> how many since 1996. >> i have already said the couple of times, the way you define it is zero. >> zero. >> just to clarify -- >> no, you agree with me, you

agree with me in a country that brought an extensive gun control and gun bans following 18 mass shootings, culminating in 35 people being slaughtered, there have been zero, zero, mass shootings since. >> no, no, no, you can't ask three or four questions at once, you have made many factual statements, let me respond. >> you have to answer my questions, not the ones that suit you and your agenda. >> wait a second, sir. >> you don't have to answer it, sir. >> it is very important for the premise of your argument. let me ask you this question, in the same year -- >> times. >> i'm going to keep talking so i suggest you keep quiet. in 1996, the same year as the massacre in australia, in scotland, as you know, 16 children of a similar age to sandy hook elementary school were slaughtered by a mass shooting, as you know, britain

brought in a ban on semiautomatic and handguns. i want to ask you again, how many mass shootings, individual shootings have there been at british schools since the scotland incident and guns were banned since 1996. >> there was one before, and there have not been any after. >> i just asked you one question. >> and i answered the question, i answered the question. >> how many shootings have there been. >> are you agreeing with me there have been zero, zero, zero, not five, not ten, zero shootings. >> i don't see what the point of having anybody on. >> because you're trying to change the question. >> sir. >> to the one that suits you. >> i'm trying to tell you as the man who tells america, in countries where they have brought in gun control. >> why am i on? >> they have seen zero mass shootings in one country, zero school shootings in another.

that is my point to you. >> how about germany, germany has even stricter laws than australia has, and up until newtown they had two of the three worst public shootings in the world. they had occurred despite these regulations. >> in the last ten years -- >> in the last ten years -- >> how many in the last ten years have been killed by guns in germany? >> germany had both of their shootings in the last ten years. >> and i'll ask you, how many people have been murdered with guns in germany in the last ten years? >> again -- >> you cited germany, do you know the answer to the country you have raised as an example to the proof of your argument. >> you change the question. >> you bring up the thing about school shootings -- -- >> thousand gun murders a year, mr. lott. >> what is the point of having anybody on. here is the deal, you bring up school shootings, i respond to

school shootings and then you go on to something else without letting me finish. >> i finally get the answer to the questions i ask you. >> you wouldn't let me finish the other answer. >> you're the man that wants to tell people like neil heslin the answer to what happened to his son. >> sir, i have let you make many sentences here, you have talked most of the time both before and after the break. so let me just try to deal with a couple of things. one of the things you have a hard time understanding is the difference between levels and changes. okay? countries differ in terms of murder rates for many reasons. if we take your murder question in germany, germany has relatively few murders, switzerland has even fewer murders than germany has. but the point is that germany also had even lower murders before they had the gun control rules that they had. the murders in uk, the murders in germany, the murders in other

countries have gone up after you have had bans put in place. and that seems to me pretty important. >> i ask you again, mr. lott, you are quoting statistics to suit your agenda. >> you just asked me about germany having a low murder rate. >> in the five-year period after the murder in scotland, when the full impact of the murder came in, in the last five consecutive years in britain it has fallen as you well know. you know it is a fact. >> look, sir, first of all it went up for the next several years. britain had an 18% increase in the number of police in the country at that point. and that helped drive it down. despite having 18% more police, the murder rate in britain is still higher now than it was before you had the handgun ban. why is it so much higher? >> how many people were murdered in britain before the guns -- how many, you are citing the murder rate in britain, answer

me how many people -- >> the murder rate in britain is about a third what it is in the united states. >> don't be so utterly ridiculous, what an absolutely. how many people were murdered in britain last year, by guns, how many? >> makes much more sense to talk about murder rates. >> tell me how many people were -- we are talking about guns, guns. >> i don't memorize number of murders -- so you don't care about the total number of people who died. >> in 2011. >> you don't care about the total number of people that died? >> the same year in america, 11,000 were murdered with guns, 18,000 killed themselves with guns, the statistics -- >> the statistics about the united states since you bring this up. do you know that 78% of the counties in the united states have zero murders in any given year, and that 3% of the counties account for over 70% of the murders? where do you think the gun

ownership is heavier? the gun ownership is heavier in the 78% of the counties that have zero murders. the gun ownership is lowest -- >> do you believe in universal background checks for everybody in america? >> in theory if they could fix the problems with the current background system. that would be great. unfortunately, about 95% of those people who are denied as a result of background checks are false-positives. it is people who -- mistakes being made in the system, because somebody has o-- like td kennedy getting on the no-fly list five times because there is somebody else who they want to deny that has the same name. but for many people that may simply be an inconvenience, but when you are talking about 1.7 million initial denials there, be you're talking about a significant, if small number of people who are being threatened, who need to get a gun quickly for self defense in order to save their lives. and that delay makes a

difference between whether or not they're going to be safe or not and defend themselves. >> okay, the final question before we go, just that you didn't answer earlier, but of the 35 proposals for gun safety that the president is trying to bring in, how many of the 35 do you support? >> i don't think i supported any of the ones that he had. i mean, a lot of them were not real proposals. >> you don't support any of them? >> a lot of them are not real proposals. sure, i think there should be a head of the btf, sure, he should appoint somebody, that is one thing that i think would be useful to do. there are a couple of other things like that. having people go and study certain issues are fine. but most of those things were not really serious things that were going to go and solving anything, were they? >> well, they are pretty serious if you're the father of a boy -- >> look, i have five kids, i can't imagine losing any of them for any reason, what you need to do sometimes is have shows about

people who save their lives, like these ten cases just in the last month of december where people had to fire multiple shots in order to save lives. >> thank you -- mr. lott, thank you for joining us. again, i -- look forward to talking to you again, about this as you know. i disagree with you passionately but respect your right to have your opinion. when we come back, more stunning question on two trials, the details are very graphic. i'll talk with two of america's top attorneys. ♪ and we'll be the best of friends ♪ [ male announcer ] introducing the reimagined 2013 chevrolet traverse. all set? all set. with spacious seating for up to eight. imagine that. chevrolet. find new roads.

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two shocking trials making headlines, we'll again warn you the trials are graphic, jodi arias finished her 12th day of testimony, let's begin with the host jane velez-mitchell. did we learn anything new? >> this was a triple x-rated day in court. of course, jodi arias says she killed her ex-lover in self defense. today, the prosecutor turned the table and made a very strong

case that she is the one who sexually corrupted him. he produced text messages that she sent to him where she said i want to bleep you like a dirty horny school girl. pardon the language, but that is a direct quote. she expresses a interest in wanting a spanking and expressed an interest in anal sex, the very activity that she had previously described as so terrible degrading. her demeanor, and the kind of bare-faced way that she just repeatedly lies and doesn't seem to be fazed when she is found out and contra dicts herself. >>

>> she has been inconsistent about her own lies and to what she said to "48 hours," and to what she said to "inside edition." so i'm not sure that she recognizes what the truth is, . >> have you were heard a case quite like this? >> never, i have never heard a case like this, and i'm asking myself, and i'm sure many people are asking themselves, what is the point of the defense? having all of the sex and lies and texts and e-mails and so forth, what is the point? the only point that i can think of is that maybe they're trying to have her up there for so many days, that somehow the jury will feel well, they know her, they like her, they wouldn't want to put her to death because now they know. whether they like her is another issue but at least they know her.

>> jane, she has cleverly been playing the jury today looking at them, trying to exude a different demeanor, and in previous days she has been weepy. she is playing a casey anthony attitude in this courtroom. >> a different jodi shows up every day. sometimes she is weepy, she is wearing these glasses to read she takes them off, they are totally for show. i spoke with a friend and he visits her in jail, and she according to him flat out predicts she will not get the death penalty. she predicts she will get manslaughter and basically skate on this, so she is extremely confident. >> i was at a dinner party where

it was the only subject of conversation. >> this woman is no longer the bleached blonde. she is no longer the heavily made up woman. and she is no longer the person who says she is the dirty little school girl. she is the meek person. she is the woman whose hair is closed in on her face. she is very quiet. she is very withdrawn. yet she is answering and not getting rattled by the prosecutor. so which jodi arias are they supposed to believe? >> it is a fascinating and compelling trial. thank you both very much. when we come back. more on the trial. and the cannibal cop. the only trial that is even more unsavory. sfarz to be the world's best sport sedan... ♪ ...people noticed. ♪

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canni it is the murder trial that everybody is talking about, jodi arias is accused of killing her boyfriend, and there is more graphic testimony. let's bring in marcia clark. they come together now with the magic of television. we spoke about this case. it is sinister in parts and lurid in others.

you are left with this odd woman who appears to be a very, very large chameleon? arrest -- or am i misreading it? >> i think they are focusing on whether or not she initiated the kinky sex. it sounds like she was entitled to kill him if she was pressured into having sex. i think they're diverting the jury's attention away from the fact that the evidence is overwhelming that she premeditated the death. she put gas in the car. she obviously stole a gun, planning to kill him. why don't they focus on the facts of the case rather than the lurid sex which bears no relation to the self defense or whether or not she deserves the death penalty?

>> marcia clark, do you see a point to what is going on in this courtroom? >> i do. i kind of disagree with alan. she is a liar. she has made herself out to be a victim. one of the ways she said he was abusive was sexually. he made me do this, and that. to the extent that the prosecution can show, that he didn't make you. you have been sending him nasty texts, they have showed her to be a liar on the stand. why do you have to do that? she is a liar based on the information she gave three different times based on how the killing occurred. why introduce sex into this? what it does is's attention awa actual facts of the case and the claims of self defense. less is more, when it comes to trying to prove somebody is a

liar. you know, when it comes to sex, people don't necessarily lie. they misremember, you know, a person may say, yeah, i remember, but why allow a jury to speculate on the sex part of it? why not focus on the lies that are central to the facts in this case? >> let's take a break and we have another case the cannibal cop in new york. and the question with him was, was he intending to do what he said he was intending to do? and if he wasn't, does he walk? which would be extraordinary. but there we are. real estate in hong kong, and the optics industry in germany? at t. rowe price, we understand the connections of a complex, global economy. it's just one reason over 75% of our mutual funds beat their 10-year lipper average. t. rowe price. invest with confidence. request a prospectus or summary prospectus with investment information, risks, fees and expenses to read and consider carefully before investing.

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. we have the case of the cannibal cop, i want to warn you about graphic details, a new york city cop planning to kill and eat dozens, including his wife. i'm back with the attorneys, alan dershowitz and marcia clark. >> all of this is utterly horrific. in one conversation to one of the women, i'm talking fantasy. it's make believe, i like to get dirty with the idea, if you take

him at face value, however, ghastly, the earlier material that i read, he is a criminal. >> absolutely not. it is not a crime to intend. it is not a crime to plan. it is only a crime to agree with another person. that is what he is charged with conspiracy. he is a criminal because he broke into computers. the only two possible ways that they can get him for anything related to murder is conspiracy or attempted murder. this is not an attempted murder. he didn't take the final step.

they have to find another person, not only who he spoke to, but who agreed with him to a specific criminal act. they have not shown that so far. so my prediction is, jury will convict him and it will be reversed on appeal. >> he referred to having a house in the mountains and an oven large enough to cook a woman. but the fbi never found the house or the van. so maybe he is making this stuff up for a kinky reason. you are lawyers and you could rise above the fray here. but real people in a jury listening to this will be so repulsed by this guy, they may just convict him on that, alone. >> correct. that is the point that i think

that allen was making as well. correct. when you look at it from a legal principle and purely that. you don't punish people from having fetishes. there is clearly something wrong with boyfriend. he is not clear in the head. a jury does react emotionally. this is where you would see a perfect trial to waive a jury and have a court trial. because you want the judge to look at it and say the elements are not fulfilled. just to hear the horrificness of it, he is right. that is a double jeopardy decladclaim, it will be dismissed forever. he is right about that, they need someone to agree with it. if they have that person, he will go down for conspiracy. >> marcia clark and i agree. >> one thing is for sure, alan, you will be back here to discuss it again. we'll talk about it for some

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