was carried away, difficult even now for mike dow. >> he turned to me and said something to the effect, mike, don't worry. i'm going where -- where i've always wanted to go. and when i get there, i'll say a prayer for you. >> reporter: to this day, his remains are buried in a mass grave in north korea. his nephew says still the family would like to bring him home. barbara starr, cnn, washington. >> powerful story indeed. that's it for me. thanks very much for watching. the news continues next on cnn. the battle over background checks and standoffs with north korea. this is a special "piers morgan live."

i want to welcome my studio audience and you at home. taking your questions and comments. tweet us at piers morgan live. a lot to get to tonight, the senate's big gun vote hours from now with the looming threat from north korea. will they launch a missile and if so when? we begin with breaking news. gun debate added urgency. four firefighters held who is damage by barricaded gunman are safe after an ordeal that lasted for hours. the suspect exchanged gunfire with s.w.a.t. officers and is now dead. the firefighters had superficial injuries. cnn's david mattingly is live for us in suwanee, georgia, with more tonight. david? >> reporter: piers, this started as a standard sort of medical call. firefighters got the call that there was someone in medical distress. they showed up at this address, came out with their equipment, had a gurney, went inside the house. and at that point they realized there was something very wrong here. they encountered a man with some

kind of weapon who then held them hostage for several hours. we were able to hear the voice of one of the firefighters after they encountered this man. this was from scanner traffic that was overheard as he was radioing back, telling everyone what the situation was that they ran into. listen. >> we are in a situation where we have a, uh -- an armed person. and he is requesting certain -- certain utilities to be turned back on at his house. and he is armed, and we are in the room with him. >> reporter: at this point, authorities saying that was the only demand this man made, was to have his utilities turned back on. negotiators, the s.w.a.t. team,

showed up very quickly after all this was going down. the negotiations apparently did not go well. just a couple hours later, the s.w.a.t. team was making their move, using concussion grenades, tear gas and going and exchanging gunfire with this man. the man was shot and killed. we don't know if it was actually from one of the officers or if he took his own life. but this man also shot and wounded one of the police officers during this operation. he was shot in the hand. it is not a life-threatening injury. the firefighters for themselves, the four of them that remained in that room with that man, they sustained minor injuries, because of the explosive devices that were used in this rescue operation. but they're all okay. and tonight investigators trying to get to the bottom of why this man tried to do this. piers? >> david mattingly, thank you very much indeed. against the backdrop of the hostage drama in georgia, the battle of guns in america is even more crucial.

the senate begins a formal debate that would expand background checks. joining me now, senator robert casey, who says the newtown massacre changed his mind on guns in america. senator, thank you for joining me. explain to me why you have changed your mind. >> because, piers, i saw what the whole country saw with regard to the tragedy that we saw in connecticut. and i was haunted by two things. number one, and first and foremost, what happened there. in a classroom where 6 and 7-year-old children were shot repeatedly at close range with a high-power rifle with huge pieces of ammunition tearing through them over and over again, shot 10, 11 or more times. the other horror, of course, what could have happened. where this gunman was going to kill every child in that school. hundreds of children would have died if he got his way. so that's what haunted me. and it caused me to take a very close look at positions i had taken in the past.

and i decided over the course of a couple of days to make a change and to vote for some of the measures we'll be voting on starting tomorrow and the next few days. >> i believe you also were very moved by an interview on this show i conducted with a family of one of the hero teachers who sadly lost her life. i have one of vicki's sisters with me, carlee soto, right now, who already is very moved, i think, by what you have been saying. obviously bringing back a lot of powerful memories. but the fact that the senate is prepared to admit he is changing his mind is extremely significantly right now in this debate. when you watch that interview, as i did, with the soto family, what was it about that that particularly struck you? >> well, just how broken these families were and how devastated they were by this tragedy. and i think in so many ways, the whole country had the same reaction that i had.

and i think we have to ask ourselves, if you're an elected official that has a vote, you've got to decide how will you use that vote when it comes in front of you. and i -- i think in some ways, it's good -- it's very positive that we've got a bipartisan agreement on a background check bill. that's good news. but it's not enough. the test here is not what the deal is in washington or whether democrats or republicans come together. that's important. we've got to strive to achieve that. the test here is what if one of those children was staring you in the face right now. what would you say to them when they said, have you done everything you can, have you voted and acted in every possible way to protect me from being killed in the way that i was. the tests are these children. the 6 and 7-year-olds and whether or not we're taking every step possible to protect these children in such a way that this won't happen again, or that we reduce the likelihood,

substantially, immeasurably that it won't happen again. >> the big barrier that keeps coming up is the nra, and they have been explicit they don't want any universal background checks, they don't want anything. you had a high rating from the nra. an "a" and b-plus in the past. you are making an enemy of the nra now with what you're doing and they will come after you, won't they? >> well, they may, and probably will at some point. here's the good news on that, piers. the country has come together in ways that i don't think we have ever seen in recent history. most of the country understands that like we have in pennsylvania -- we've got more than 1 million gun owners in pennsylvania. it's part of our tradition, part of our culture. and it's very positive in our state. and i think we can say to those gun owners, we want to respect your rights in every way that is possible under our system. you can have a gun for protection, and a lot of people need a gun for protection. you can have a gun to engage in

hunting or sporting. you can do that within the limits and within what we will vote on the next couple days. i think we've got to make sure that we limit the magazines, the ammunition that's available in one weapon at one time and one place. and we saw the effects of that not only in connecticut but in a lot of places around the country. so i think we can respect those rights and have common sense measures and still make sure we take every step possible to protect children in similar circumstances. >> i completely agree with you. senator, thank you very much. i want to turn to carlee soto, and i think what the senator said is pretty extraordinary for a senator to be so outspoken in his change of mind about this. >> i think it's amazing that, you know, he did change his mind. and he was completely right with, you know, they did come to an agreement today and

everything. but that's not enough. it's really not. these kids were brutally murdered. my sister was brutally murdered and it's just not enough what they said about the background checks. >> you see, this is my problem with all of this. and i'm curious as to how you think we get through this. if what happens tomorrow leads to some form of enhanced background checks, that's all well and good. and that will be a good thing. i don't dispute that. but it's not going to stop another adam lanza. it won't stop another holmes, the aurora shooter, another loughner, the man who shot gabby giffords and nearly killed her. those three, in the way they went about acquiring their weapons and their high-capacity magazines and their assault rifles and so on would all be free to do exactly the same thing again. and 95% of it completely legally, up to the point they commit their atrocities. how are you going to convince the politicians in washington to listen to people like carlee and the other families? because i see that you get it.

what i don't see is that the others get it. >> well, i think people of good faith can come together on this, piers, in ways that probably weren't passable before. and unfortunately for the families, this tragedy is the one event in recent american history i think that has moved people. but -- and it will take time. we've got a ways to go. this debate we'll have in the next couple days won't be the end of it, even if the background check bill passes. and i want to commend the work done by a number of senators, including pat toomey with whom i serve from pennsylvania and joe manchin from west virginia. but we've got a long way to go, even if it does pass. we've got more work that we have to do. and i think people of goodwill, if we focus on the children, if we focus on what could have happened, if we took steps years ago, that olivia engel, for example, a 6-year-old who was going to appear in a nativity play that night as an angel. that she would have been able to play that role that night.

so if we focus on those children and answer their question that we -- or the question they would be asking us, have you taken every step possible to make sure that this can't happen again. and that is a -- that's the question that we've got to ask ourselves, especially those of us who have a vote. >> i want to play a quick clip. this is from senator joe manchin today who got emotional when he talked about his meeting some of the families in washington from sandy hook. >> i'm a parent. i'm a grandparent. i can't imagine. >> you got it. >> let's all share. i can't imagine. i had to do something. >> carlee, i've got four kids. i've got a sister.

i've got two brothers. if something like what happened to vicki happened to any of them, i would be incandescent. never mind grief-stricken. i would just want something to happen. when you see the politicians reacting because they connected in that way, and i applaud senator manchin, he's a good man doing a good thing. but what do you say to those politicians, the senators up there, who are more interested in saving their seat politically than in doing something to prevent another sandy hook? >> i'm 20 years old. my sister was 27 years old. i picked out my own sister's casket. i picked out what my sister will be buried in. i had to do that. no one should ever have to do that. it was a horrible feeling. and maybe if they had to feel that, they would change their mind. they would think differently about this. if they lost someone so close to them, they would definitely change their mind. >> the type of weapon that was

used, this ar-15 assault rifle. do you think it has any place in civilian life? >> no. not at all. you know, i stood at the barrier leading up to sandy hook. and for hours just watching, you know, military personnel and police officers with these huge guns. and then finding out that he had one of these. it was horrible. and you know, i didn't know that there was a difference. and the bullet holes that it would leave. i thought it was just a normal bullet hole. until i saw my sister's clothing that she wore. i saw the baseball-size holes that were in my sister's clothes. they were huge. it was unbelievable to imagine that a normal person could just have this gun. a normal person can walk into a school and just start shooting at little kids. >> and these baseball-sized holes, it was the same for the children. each one was hit 3 to 11 times.

and i believe that you very recently this week met with some of the children that survived. what was that experience like for you? >> it was amazing. sorry. my sister died protecting those kids. and it was nice to see the kids that made it out. the kids that my sister was able to protect. it was nice to meet them. and you know, they just looked at you and they were like, oh, you look just like ms. soto. you look just like her. and it was nice to see that. but why we met them wasn't a good circumstance. >> people have suggested that if any of the families released a photograph of the devastating injuries that happened that day, it would change public opinion like that. do you think there's any merit to that argument? >> personally, i feel like we haven't seen the crime scene photos. and that's a horrible thing to have to see.

and it's sad to think that, you know, people would change their mind after seeing these photos. but i'm telling you. they had baseball-sized holes. in them. that's horrible enough. can't you just deal with that? do you really need to see the pictures also? >> he used, the shooter, 30-bullet magazines. still many senators, many other politicians in america, see no reason to try and limit their availability. what do you say? >> the youngest boy, noah, was shot 11 times. that's almost half one magazine. that's disgusting. why should anybody be able to have that much ammunition? you don't need that much ammunition. and it's disgusting to think that people think otherwise about it. >> do you think that some of the children may have survived if he hadn't had such a high-capacity magazine in his weapons? >> definitely. very much so.

it's just mind-boggling to think that he had that much ammunition on him. >> president obama has made this very personal. michelle obama is very personal today about it from chicago. is he doing enough? are you happy with what he is trying to achieve here? >> i think he's doing an amazing job. he's trying so hard for this not to happen again. and there's only so much he can do. and he's just -- he's been amazing through all of this. and i've had the pleasure of meeting him and talking to him. and he's a very nice person, to me, and he's trying. but like i said, there's only so much he can do about this. >> carlee, it's very brave of you to come on the show and talk this way. i think it's -- how anyone can listen to any of the families from newtown and not just race to contact their politician, their senator, their congressman, their

congresswoman, and demand action is completely beyond me. so keep doing what you're doing. and we will be right behind you. >> thank you. >> thank you for joining me. >> thank you very much. when we come back, yeah, i think we should -- oh, he's a fighter alright.

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stern warning on north korea. american radar and satellites trained on the east coast of the peninsula watching for signs of an impending missile launch. kyung lah is live in south korea. kyung, the tension builds. what is likely to happen, do you think, over the next 24 or 36 hours? >> reporter: well, it's very much a guessing game. just like we were guessing yesterday, along with the u.s. government and the south korean government. because when we are talking about the hermit kingdom, it is very much a guessing game and a very unpredictable one, at best. so what we are seeing throughout this region is a high level of readiness, that tension here is the highest it has been, according to many people, since the end of the korean war. so there's a lot of concern. we're seeing patriot missile batteries pointed at the sky. the assumption here is that this -- if the test launch does indeed happen, it will be a test launch. a missile test launch. it won't be aiming at anything.

but kim jong-un has proven to be a very unpredictable leader, piers, so they are preparing for the worst here. >> kyung, thanks very much. i want to go to the audience. ask your question. >> thanks, we have some ideas on what the worst-case scenario with north korea might look like. but what are some of the best case scenarios for a peaceful resolution and what are some concrete steps that the u.s. administration can take to get us there? >> it's a great question. i think the best case would be that kim jong-un, the present leader who has occasionally sent signals of reform as well as signals of bellicosity begin to pursue economic reforms and take a path that china did in the early 1970s and then accentuate after jinping came to power in 1979. and china would very much like to see that happen. they would like to see themselves do to north korea

what, you know, what they themselves did. and i think that is about the best possible hope. for right now. >> is it much of a hope? at the moment, you've got this guy who is un -- unknown. he's young. he's inexperienced. potentially extremely unpredictable. this is a recipe for potential disaster, if only through a mistake. >> you know, i think that almost everybody who looks at it thinks that most likely north korea is just throwing a tantrum. because this is a strategy that has worked in the past. that they -- threaten a sea of fire in seoul. and eventually maybe people will pay attention to them. and then maybe will bribe them to take a different route. but there is, as you say, always this concern that they may play their cards. they have more of a case for brinksmanship. in 2010, they attacked a south korean vessel with 109 lives aboard. things can can go wrong and if they do, it's not just an issue

of nuclear weapons. seoul is in reach of north korean artillery and have chemical and biological weapons, as well. >> there is a big holiday coming up in north korea monday to celebrate what would have been the 101st birthday of kim jong-un's grandfather, kim il-sung. that could be a day for some kind of action, we think. because they tend to celebrate these days with -- >> yeah, it's a national holiday and kim il-sung, the grandfather, is -- after he died, he was named the president forever. i mean, some countries have a president for life. he's a president for death. and it really is just the wackiest country around, piers. and yet it's got nuclear weapons, it's got this artillery trained on seoul. >> in the worst-case scenario, who would have the lead role in any kind of containment for north korea? would it be america or china? >> well, what do you mean by -- if there is --

>> for example, took any action directly against south korea, for example, who would you expect to lead any kind of retaliatory action? >> the u.s. will be the central force there. and china will be pleading with the u.s. to restrain things. china doesn't like north korea and north korea doesn't listen to china. but china does not want a consolidation of the two koreas under south korean control. and -- but if there is conflict, that will be the end. if there is a real war, that will be the end of north korea. it's just that in 1994, during a period of hostilities, the u.s. pentagon estimated that in a war there would be 1 million casualties if there were another korean war. so if that were to happen, it would be an extraordinarily brutal event. >> let me ask you quickly about guns. obviously a huge day tomorrow up in washington. but listening to carlee soto there. >> she was so moving. >> so powerful, so eloquent. where is this debate going to go? not just tomorrow, but my sense

is, the optimism i have, and it's not a lot, but it's some, we're still talking about this, it's still leading the news three months after newtown. >> and if you count both suicides and homicides, 10,000 people have died since that shooting. and this will keep on happening. you know, i guess i'm a little bit optimistic. i see this -- there is no silver bullets here, as you know. there is silver buck shot. universal background checks are one of those silver buck shot. they will make a real difference. and that, i hope, will lay the ground work for other modest steps that over time can reduce the murders and can reduce the suicides, can limit gun access to some degree. >> good to see you. thanks for coming in. >> good to be back. next, i talk to an nra member whose sister was shot to death, and congressman mike thompson at the center of the capitol hill debate. later, the video you've got to see, chicago store owners

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zina was a beautiful person who loved life. all she wanted to do was be a good mother. >> zina lived life fearing her husband radcliffe would kill her. >> zina claimed she suffered through years of physical abuse. >> zina had a restraining order against her husband that prohibits him from buying a gun. so if the killer bought his gun from a private, online seller and did not have to go through a background check.

>> the tragic story of a woman called zina shot to death by her estranged husband. her brother elvin daniel is a gun owner and nra member who believes that background check may have saved his sister. also richard feldman, president of the independent firearm owners association. welcome to you both. >> thank you. >> elvin, incredibly sad story. it should never have happened. tell me why you believe a background check would have possibly saved your sister. >> i do believe a background check would have saved her life, because the killer went online. and purchased a gun in a mcdonald's parking lot the day before he committed the murder and then he went to the salon and shot seven people and killed my sister. and two of her co-workers. so i not only believe a criminal background check would have helped but also a cooling off period. that may help in that case, as well. >> richard feldman, we've debated this a few times. but when you hear something like that, what is your response to that?

do you still believe there's no need for universal background checks? >> well, piers, the independent firearm owners supports universal background checks for people who don't know each other. be it at gun shows or online, to prevent exactly this particular type of tragedy. we brought the legislation today. >> you talked with president biden today. >> yes, i was. >> so you would support the manchin compromise. >> from everything i heard, absolutely. >> when you see the nra statement that says expanding background checks at gun shows will not prevent the next shooting or not solve violent crime or not keep our kids safe in schools, do you disagree with that? >> well, there is a lot of truth to what they say. shifting criminals obtaining guns from one source to another doesn't prevent their misuse. but that shouldn't be an excuse not to shore up where we can and this is an instance where we could have. we don't know what would have happened in this instance, had that person not bought that gun at that time. >> but there's this excuse all

of the time -- >> that's why we support it. >> right. this excuse the nra always puts up about criminals will always be criminals. of course they will. they're criminals. and that's what the law is designed for. to stop criminals breaking the law and to punish them when they're caught. it doesn't seem to me to be any logical argument to the prevention of the wider issue of gun violence. >> well, today in my discussion with vice president biden, i did bring up a new subject matter. and i said to the vice president that i think it's time in this country that we have an adult discussion about the role, war on drugs plays in perpetuating violence across this country. every narcotics officer i've spoken to, and there are hundreds, say that gun violence in their city, a huge proportion is directly related to control over the illegal black market in drugs. we need to make this part of the conversation if we're serious about doing something about the problem of gun violence.

>> well, i totally agree with you. i think that, and i think mental health, all those issues, to me, things that have to be attacked. it's a multi-pronged thing here. but in relation to what is going on in washington, when you have the nra, and let me come back to you here, elvin, so determined to not even have a universal background check, and you look at what happened with an investigation by cnn tonight, by martin savidge, which aired on anderson cooper's show earlier and we've got a picture of the guns that martin savage was able to acquire going to four or five gun shows around america. there they are. including the ar-15 assault rifle, which was used at sandy hook, and a variety of handguns, not a single check was made. nobody knew his name. nobody asked for his name. nobody knew if he was a felon, he was mentally insane. nothing. that was our guy. just paying cash to people who didn't ask any questions. when you see that happening, what is your reaction? >> well, 20% of all gun sales

are done without background checks. >> some say as high as 40. >> it could very well be. i'm being conservative saying 20%. i urge congress to be reasonable and work with each other. and pass a background check for all gun sales to keep our family safe. >> senate voted to bring the gun bill up for debate tomorrow at 11:00. that's the first step. what will happen in the house? joining me from the gun vlt violence prevention task force, congressman mike thompson. congressman, is this just the first step in a much wider, ongoing battle in washington, to bring in proper gun control, do you believe? or is this going to be as good as it gets? an expansion of background checks? >> well, first thanks for having me. the truth of the matter is, the background check is our first line of defense. that has to be done. every piece of legislation, every issue that's dealt with in

congress, is an ongoing piece of work. but first and foremost, we have to pass the background check. we need to make sure that criminals and dangerously, mentally ill folks don't have access to firearms. and you can't do it if you don't do background checks. >> but tell me this, though. it's all very well having the background checks and i completely endorse what you just said. the reality is no one is attempting in washington to try and ban the assault rifles we used in either aurora or sandy hook. no one is trying to ban the high-capacity magazines. and so all the promises and all the outpouring of emotion and anger that follow what happened in newtown seems to have fallen on completely deaf ears in washington. why is that? and how can this reflect the wider public opinion in america? >> piers, there's a number of people in washington who are trying to do various things in regard to preventing gun violence, and background checks, stopping straw purchases,

stopping gun trafficking, those are the first steps. and they will continue to be people working on this for a long time to come. we have to prioritize. we need to make sure that we pass not only what we can pass, but what will have the most impact in preventing gun violence. and i believe that's the background checks. as elvin said, it's up to 40% of the people who buy guns today do so without going through a background check. and that's not right. and the american people know it. nra members know it. gun owners know it. there's overwhelming support for this. we can do it, we can do it now. and we can save lives. >> congressman and elvin daniel, richard feldman, thank you very much. next an incredible story. i'll talk to a hero neighbor who saved the life of a young mother accidentally shot by her 2-year-old son. and later, two chicago store owners who fought back against armed robbers. but i wondered wha customer thought?

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no one is immune from gun violence. this week he we saw how young the victims and the shooters can be. a 4-year-old shot and killed a sheriff's deputy wife. in new jersey, a 6-year-old was shot in the head by a 4-year-old playmate. and in tennessee, a 2-year-old

found a gun under the pillow and shot her in the stomach. michael, indeed you were heroic. what an awful story. tell me how, first of all, your friend is, and what you know about what happened. >> as far as i know, they got her in stable condition. and she is going to be okay. probably going to be in the hospital for a couple months. >> and the understanding is that her husband is in the national guard and had a habit of leaving a loaded gun under the pillow. and that's what happened. the 4-year-old son got hold of it, is that right? >> yes, sir. >> the 2-year-old. a glock .9 millimeter? >> uh-huh. >> i mean, let me ask you as somebody who knows the family. it seems to me an extraordinary thing that anyone would leave a loaded pistol in a pillow where you have two young kids running around. >> yeah, definitely.

i didn't know them real good. they just moved in a couple months ago. >> well, what you did was an extraordinary thing. and i thank you for joining me. thank you very much indeed. i want to go to janet taylor. you've dealt with lots of incidents like this. this is one of many. we picked this out because it happens almost every day now in america. one of these awful stories. and i keep being told, look, you know, the only way to save people in america from gun violence is get more guns out there. what do you say to that? >> i think it's a reminder most crime happens within families. i want to bring out a point about separating the dangerously mentally ill from criminals. criminals belong in prisons and mentally ill people need treatment. and i think underlying it all is a lack of accessible treatment for most individuals. >> we also need good ideas. i want to bring in lauren sorge, you have a great idea, called the lifeplate. and you designed this because you had relatives caught up in school shootings, not personally, but were there when they happened.

and you thought enough is enough. what is the idea you came up with? >> okay. so this right here is the lifeplate shield. this is kind of an example of what it looks like. and this one specifically was shot close-range with a .44 magnum. and you can kind of see where the bullet penetrated. but it does not go through. and most bullet-proof shields or protection, for that matter, are made out of kevlar, which is like the universal material. but this isn't made out of kevlar. this is actually made out of a fiber called polyethylene, which is 15 times stronger than steel and also 40% stronger than kevlar. >> that's a great idea, janet, quickly, that we need. don't give these kids guns in schools. it's complete madness to arm kids in schools. but to give them one of these as a prevention against possibly being shot seems to me a great idea. >> well, that and also teach our kids how to be more empathic and have compassion and bring on

family values so we don't even have to deal with these crazy issues of kids feeling like they have to resolve a conflict with a weapon. teach them how to communicate and spread love with each other. >> totally agree with you. thank you both very much indeed. michelle obama got choked up during a speech in chicago today talking about the gun death of hadiya pendleton. could the first lady help to turn the debate on guns? michael, tell us why you used priceline express deals to book this fabulous hotel. well, you can see if the hotel is pet friendly before you book it.

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try e-mail marketing from constantcontact. it's the fastest, easiest way to create great-looking custom e-mails that bring customers through your door. sign up for your free trial today at constantcontact.com/try. science and evidence based drug and alcohol treatment center. where your addiction stops and your new life begins. call now. hadiya pendelton was me. and i was her. but i got to grow up.

and go to princeton and harvard law school and have a career and a family and the most blessed life i could ever imagine. and hadiya, oh, we know that story. >> an emotional michelle obama speaking about 15-year-old hadiya pendelton shot and killed in chicago. will a gun deal in washington keep americans safer? my special guest now, senior legal analyst and new yorker writer jeffrey toobin. and gale trotter, senior fellow of the independent. let's go to one of our audience questions here. because linda, you have of a question about background checks. >> in regard to the background check, i really don't see where we're going to be able to keep guns out of the hands of the mentally disturbed. >> what is your view of the call for universal background checks? >> i think we should not restrict women's rights to have access to firearms. the more restrictions we put on

law abiding citizens being able to have access to firearms? >> why just women? >> 90% of violent crimes happen without the use of firearms. in that situation women have a disadvantage. if they're armed or have a right to choose to be armed, they can reverse the balance of power. and have possibly an advantage over their violent attacker. >> no one's saying they can't buy a gun, they just have to pass a background check. >> it creates limits for them. if they're being threatened by -- >> limits if they're mentally disturbed or criminally minded? >> no, it's a restriction. >> yes, yes, yes. not no, no, no. yes, yes, yes, yes. >> if you make the fees go up for buying guns, they particularly affect women who are in disadvantaged neighborhoods. as you increase, you limit the types of guns they can possess, like saturday night specials and require them to buy more expensive guns. and pay higher fees and the women live in dangerous neighborhoods. >> you're talking about people

with criminal records and people who have mental illness. that's what this law is, all that stuff about women and minority neighborhoods, that's just spin and nonsense. come on. >> that's not true. >> it is true. >> that is absolutely not true. eric holder's justice department showed that private citizens account for more than one third of violent criminals who have been killed during the commission of a felony. >> so what? >> we're already relying on armed citizens to protect us. >> why would you -- given you think women are in such danger from guns -- >> no, no, no. you missed my point. they're not in danger from guns, over 90% of violence attacks are not with guns. you're missing my point. >> clarify what your point is. if they have a gun, they will not be subjected to domestic violence. >> no, that is not the point. the point is, most women, when they are violently attacked, their attacker does not have a gun. if the woman has a gun or has the right to choose to have a gun and we have concealed carry laws and attackers don't know if

a woman has a gun or not. she has the ability to defend herself. >> here's where i find your argument baffling. why would you -- >> it's not funny. >> i'm not laughing. would you not want a universal background check that would pick up men, who may be criminals or may be mentally ill? why wouldn't you want to flag both people and stop them from buying guns? >> i testified before the senate judiciary committee in january and had over 20 examples of women defending themselves and loved ones with firearms. a guest you had on earlier, his sister died from an attack -- from her estranged husband -- >> but you're taking part in the wrong debate. >> let me finish. >> you're arguing the wrong point. >> she had a pistol in her purse and she was able to draw it and protect herself and all the other people. >> right. >> if that woman had been in a place where someone had arms, easy access to arms, and law

abiding -- >> i don't know why you're not answering my question. my question is very straightforward. if you're trying to make women safer, why would you not want to stop men who are criminals or who are mentally insane from getting their hands on guns. we've already seen tonight at cnn, we managed to acquire an arsenal of firearms. we could have been criminally minded or mentally insane. or determined to attack women with those guns. why do you not want to flag out people who may want to harm women? your feminine argument. >> the second amendment says we have a constitutional right. gun restrictions disproportionately harm women. you increase -- >> can i ask you about those restrictions? >> yes. >> if a man has a domestic violence restraining order against him, should he be allowed to buy a gun? >> no, he should not. >> i thought you were against -- >> his sister was killed by by family who had a restraining

order against him, got it on the internet. why do you want that guy -- >> everybody who thinks this is wrong should be petitioning our federal government to go after all those people who are not passing the background checks. we should be prosecuting them. our background system does not work now. why do we want to throw all these other people in the system. >> no, it doesn't. >> we're not prosecuting people who are failing the background checks. >> gail, stop talking for one moment. >> certainly. >> it does work, it flags them and they're not able to buy the firearm. yes, they should be prosecuted when they're caught lying. of course they should. but it does stop them getting their hands on weapons. >> and then their hands are weapons. you look at the cases of people, people who kill their domestic partners, not using guns. look at the arthur kellerman study. they always use to try to show that -- >> gail, one last chance because the audience -- >> do you want to hear about the study. >> the audience is sharing my bemusement. >> it is not funny.

>> earlier we had a woman subjected to domestic violence. she was killed by the person who had she had a restraining order against. we had her brother here saying if a background check had picked him up he couldn't have bought that weapon on the internet. why would you not want her to be protected? >> my answer to that would be, allow someone to be armed in the place that she was. and we try -- >> why wouldn't you want to stop him from getting a gun? >> no, guns make women safer. it would be more helpful to women if you highlighted the cases of women defending themselves and their families and their vulnerable family members from violent attackers with guns. >> am i going mad? >> no. no. >> final word. >> piers, there are 2.5 domestic abuses every year. >> abuses. >> we had a man on who said, if that man had been given a background check, he wouldn't have gotten the gun that killed my sister. your answer is give her a gun.

his answer is stop the guy from getting a gun in the first place. next, the store owner who fought back, amazing video of what he did when a couple of gunmen tried to hold him up. we'll have that after the break. . would you take it? well, there is. [ male announcer ] it's called ocuvite. a vitamin totally dedicated to your eyes, from the eye care experts at bausch + lomb. as you age, eyes can lose vital nutrients. ocuvite helps replenish key eye nutrients. ocuvite has a unique formula not found in your multivitamin to help protect your eye health. now that's a pill worth taking. [ male announcer ] ocuvite. help protect your eye health.

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