>> this is ""piers morgan live"." welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world. it is 10:00 p.m. on the east coast and two stories are dominating the stories. ariel castro, charged with kidnapping and raping amanda berry, gina dejesus and michelle knight. his brothers, onil and pedro, no charges against them. listen to this dramatic recording at the moment the police found these women. >> might be for real. we found them. we found them.

>> and in phoenix, sex, lies and murder. jodi arias found guilty. police say she is on suicide watch, and tonight, she said she would rather get the death penalty than life in prison, and this is what she told fox affiliate in phoenix. >> i'll talk to a friend of jodi arias and friend of a man she killed. and a joyous family reunion. >> there she is. >> we are so happy to have amanda and her daughter home. until this moment for me, i still feel as it is a dream. i still pinch myself. >> police say the victims left the house of horrors only twice in a decade. and watched their parents on tv at vigils for themselves. they say when amanda berry escaped on monday, the other two victims chose not to run away. and that ariel castro, seen here in custody, would test them by pretending to leave, and then beating them if they made a move to escape. they also called a case against ariel castro a slam dunk.

now, out to cnn's poppy harlow, and now more dramatic details emerging throughout the night on the case, and what can you tell us about the latest? we are just told that amanda berry had the baby who is now her 6-year-old child in the home of aerial kas troeshgs and that the baby was delivered by michelle knight, and that is what the source says that castro grabbed michelle knight and told her to deliver the baby and deliver amanda's baby and we are also told that the baby was born, piers, in a plastic tub to contain all of the amniotic fluids. and we are also told that when

aman amanda's baby was born that the baby stopped breathing and everybody started to scream, and castro said if that baby dies,ly kill you. another important thing that i want to tell you, piers, this source tells us that what is most incredible here is that this girl who knew nothing about childbirth was able to deliver a baby that is now a healthy 6-year-old, and paints a chaotic and panicked and very, very picture, piers. >> absolutely. extraordinary details. ariel castro has been charged with the rape and kidnapping charges and he is due to appear in court, but the two brothers have not had any charges filed against them. they are complete innocent, and how can we read into the information today? >> that is absolute ti case piers. innocent belief leave that the innocent brothers are in terms

of the rape in terms of the crime of alleged rape and kidnapping and the police say they found, quote, no facts to link onil and pedro castro to the kidnappings, but however, both brothers will appear in municipal court in cleveland on misdemeanor charges and other charges, but the photos of the two brothers have been up for the whole time that the police have arrested them thinking that they had enough probable cause to rearrest them related to the charges against ariel castro, and now they are saying they have no facts to link them to each other. what is also important here that we are told is that the police believe that the brothers were in the dark about this, and this shows us just how, how private this all was, the fact that the brothers of castro, the police are now saying had no idea that this was going on and it shows just how separated kcastro and

the entire life that is alleged, that he is alleged to have was from even his own family members. >> thank you very much, indeed, poppy harlow live in cleveland. thank you very much indeed. those women were missing for nearly a decade and the families never gave up hope. listen to amanda's berry. >> horrible. you always want to keep hope, but after so many years goes by, you lose a little bit but in the back of your mind, you still keep it. like i mean, like jaycee dugard i think that is her name went missing for 18 years, and they found her, and you know, so, when you hear stories like that, that keeps your hope alive. >> i want to bring in karen mchenry who is a program director in cleveland, and many

people are horrified by the details of the case and people cannot believe that three women were kidnap and held in the dungeon for ten years and without anybody knowing anything about them, and what is your explanation for this and how nobody could have had a clue that they were there? >> well, you know, i don't know how they couldn't have had a clue they were there, but we know that when victims and we work with victims of sexual trafficking and abuse and negligent, and when they are under the control of someone who is so aggressive and abusing them physically and sexually they develop a learned helplessness, and this is because of the abuse. so, because they were living in ultimate fear, many of the victims that we work with every day at bellfair have been living in fear and unpredictable lives and never sure when they will be fed or taken care of or

nurtured. >> what is clearly emerging about this man ariel castro is that he rules with utter fear, and he would do tests to pretend to leave the house, and if the girls would pretend to escape, he would beat them up, and appalling details of multiple pregnancies involving one of the girls michelle knight and of course, this moment when amanda berry gave birth in a tub and they were warned if the baby died, they would die. utterly appalling, and is this the kind of thing that the sex traffickers do in your experience to the young women to ensure they stay in captivity? >> yes, they do a great deal deal in captivity and they put a great deal of power over them and whether they are going to hurt them or their family

members or somebody else, and it is crucial for the victims and one thing that we would like to celebrate here in cleveland is that with the horror that the women have survived, and we are all marvelled that they have survived, and it is just that their spirits are are so resilient and that is what we want to focus on that they are survivors. >> absolutely. karen mchenry, thank you very much indeed for joining me. now i want to bring in juan perez who lived just three doors down from the house where the women were held captive. thank you for joining me, mr. perez, you were for 22 years a neighbor of ariel kas troeshgs and living two doors down and you knew nothing about this appalling other life that he was apparently leading, and what is your reaction to this discovery? >> i was very excited that the

girls were found, but at the same time i felt guilt. >> i mean, you knew ariel castro very well, and you helped to refurbish his porch, and you knew him for 22 years. >> yes, i knew him for 22 years and since i was 5 years old, and he helped to change my tire once when i was 7 years old he would ask how school was, and it was a teenager and he would ask how school was, and he asked about relationships and he seemed like a really nice guy in the neighborhood. you know, talking to people on the outside and if you are having a get together, and he would have a part of it. always said hi, even if he was on the corner and saw you, and he had great mask, because everybody thought he was a nice guy. >> it is extraordinary that

living so closely to him and knowing him so well didn't have an inkling of what was going on there given how depraved we now know it was, and did you have any concerns over the last ten years that something may not be entirely right about the man's house? >> well, to be honest, i thought that the house was vacant for the last couple of years and he would come to check up on it a couple of times a week. he would only be here for what i saw ten minutes to an hour at a time. i thought he was checking on the property, and he has not sold it yet. next door, and the next two houses next door are vacant and boarded up. so his house had the windows covered up, i just thought it was vacant. i never saw him stay -- i never saw anything to be honest, nothing. >> it is extraordinary.

juan perez, it must be a huge shock to you and i appreciate your joining me, thank you very much. >> thank you. the other big story tonight is the arias verdict and the jury found her giuilty of the first-degree murder of her ex-boyfriend and now they will decide whether she will get the death penalty. casey wian is in phoenix for the latest. casey, no great surprise that she was found guilty, but the big question now, will she get the death penalty, and that may be decided tomorrow. >> it could be decided as early as tomorrow, but from what i am hearing, it may take a couple of day days. the prosecution has to prove that there were aggravating circumstances that is called the aggravation phase that is going to begin at 1:00 local time in the afternoon and what that means is that they have to prove, persuade all of the jurors that the murder was committed with extreme cruelty.

if they are able to persuade the jury and get a unanimous vote on that, then it moves to the actual death penalty phase of the trial, and that is where the defense attorneys will present mitigating factors, mitigating evidence as to why jodi arias' life should be spared. if the jury does not find that there was extreme cruelty in the case, then what happens is that it goes directly to the judge, and she has two options. she can either sentence jodi arias to 25 years to life or life without the possibility of release at any future time, pier s. >> casey, this is amazing interview that she gave afterwards when she said she would prefer to be given the death penalty. and she would rather die than face life imprisonment, and what would you make of that?

>> well, a lot of people are scratching their heads and attorneys are scratching their heads and why she allowed the interview to take place. she did say that she preferred death as opposed to a life sentence in prison. she also sent out a tweet through a friend who has been twe tweeting on her behalf throughout the trial a couple of days ago saying she had considered suicide, and that is something that she has mentioned in interviews previously, so as a result of that, the maricopa sheriff's office has put her on a suicide watch. they say they are not going to be allowing anymore interviews as long as that suicide watch is in effect. piers. >> casey wian, thank you very much indeed. coming up next, more on the two breaking stories, the arias verdict and the murder and rape charges for ariel castro for keeping three young women prisoner. and also, a man who was thanked personally today by one of the families after the break.

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arias, count one, we the jury dually impaneled do upon our oaths do find the defendant as to count one guilty of murder in the first degree. jodi arias found guilty of first-degree murder and she said she would prefer to die sooner as opposed to later. and should she get the death penalty or not? joining me is travis' former roommate and also garsissy who

knew him. >> well, there was no question that she had done it, and the fact that she found her guilty was not a surprise, but i would find it surprising if she got the death penalty. what happened was that she was responsible for, he was partly responsible for her snapping the way she did. >> but when you say partly responsible, i mean, no one surely is responsible for somebody shooting and stabbing them repeatedly and murdering them in that brutal fashion. why do you say that? >> i agree with that part. but, again, she was being abused by him. we know that. we know it from the e-mails back and forth between other parties that have shown up in court. we know it from my own personal experience, which i testified to. so there was a culpability involved of driving her, go away, come here, all of that kind of thing. again, i'm not saying he deserved to die. but i can see why it happened. and once the murder start --

once the fight started, again, i think she snapped and lost it, like they say she did. so -- >> let me bring in elisha. because i can see you shaking your head, elisha. you clearly don't agree with this. what is your reaction? >> yes, yes, yes. i do not agree with what gus has to say. i don't appreciate his comments at all. he did not abuse jodi arias. and i want that to be clear. he did not abuse anyone. he was the kindest man that you will ever meet. and it is a tragedy that he is gone. >> and elisha, do you think she should get the death penalty? >> you know, i have forgiven her a long time ago. and, you know, whether i -- think she deserves the death penalty or not, isn't up to me. i think solitary confinement actually would be worse for her. because she likes the spotlight. you know. either way, she did it.

she murdered my friend. we can't bring him back. and it is a true tragedy, because he did not deserve to die in the manner in which he did. even if he did abuse jodi, which he didn't, no man on this earth deserves to die the way that he did. >> and i've got to say, as someone who watched the case -- sorry. finish what you wanted to say. >> go ahead. go ahead. i'm done. go ahead. >> gus, friends of travis' do feel very strongly that he didn't abuse jodi arias. but even if he did, as i said earlier, nothing justifies what she did. and what people were put off by was her almost psychopathic lying and misleading and strange behavior generally throughout the trial, particularly when she gave evidence.

you didn't get an impression of somebody even remotely normal. what do you think of her mental state? >> well, here's what you've got to look at. obviously, she did something horrific, no question. i think at some point she realizes, oh, my god, i have done something horrific, and what do i do now? if you go back in her past history, she was a nice girl, lived with a guy, took care of his son. there was no past criminal records, nothing. all of a sudden she meets travis and everything goes south for both parties. there's no winner in this. it's completely tragic. he did not deserve to die. i agree with that. but i also understand the things that he did. he wasn't this pure virginess guy they portrayed him to be. and the combination of the two together -- >> that doesn't matter. >> became a star-cross problem. again, not a reason for him to die. i have said that, okay? but i don't think she deserves to die either. i think she is -- should be found guilty. she was. but i don't believe she should be getting the death penalty. >> well, they -- if i may jump in. the irony, of course, is she has

now come out herself after the conviction and said she would prefer the death penalty. which, as elisha said, may just be her way of avoiding a lifetime in prison, which would be the last thing she would want. thank you both very much indeed. i want to bring in vinny politan, host of "in session," and hln's "making it in america." vinny, we've reached the crashing point of this extraordinary case. what is your reaction to what happened in court today. >> first i want to react to what gus just said, completely mischaracterizing the evidence and the verdict rendered by eight men and four women today in maricopa county. they dismissed this allegation that she snapped. premeditated murder, a plan that was hatched in why reeka, california, days beforehand, weeks beforehand, in the way she got the gun, got the gas cans and made her way to mesa in the middle of the night and covered it up and forged an alibi.

so there was no snapping here, piers. i don't want any of your viewers to be misled by what gus just said on your air because it was incorrect, wrong and the jury said so. >> okay. let me go straight to gus who has been listening on that. we kept him on to see what you said. gus, what is your reaction to what vinny just said? >> well, based on what the jury saw and heard, this is what they have done. but one of the things i have contended all along, there is a lot of truth here that never made it to the jury. there is a lot of people that never came forward with information that may have changed some of that opinion. but, you know, it is what it is. he still didn't deserve to die. i agree with that. but, again, there was -- >> she brought the gun, she brought the knife, she killed him! >> then why not shoot him more than once? >> why not? well, because it's jodi arias. because she is obsessed with him. she wanted to be his last sexual partner. that's what's going on in this mind of herself. >> there is no evidence of that whatsoever. if you're going to say -- >> did you see the photos, gus? gus, did you see the photos? did you see the photographs? >> i've seen the photos and i've listened to you. >> did you see the photos

beforehand? >> yes, could have shot him in his sleep. if she was trying to kill him, would have shot him in his sleep. she wouldn't have got in a fight with him. >> this isn't a fight. a fight is when two people were going after each other. this was an attack, gus, a premeditated attack. and the jury said so. >> why not shoot him in his sleep? shoot him several times. that didn't happen. >> we could do a lot of why not do this, why not do that. >> that's right. >> she had a plan. it's not your plan, gus. it was her plan. she was -- >> it's not my plan. >> it's not your plan. right. it was her plan. she is the one fatally attracted and obsessed with this man. >> and he was fatally attracted to her too. >> oh, come on. >> he called her. >> come on. >> o come on. >> let me jump in. >> there's only one person -- >> gentlemen. let me jump in. let me ask you, vinny. should she get, jodi arias, the death penalty that she now says she wants? >> well, she wants it. she said it before the trial, she now -- that's the first thing she utters after the trial.

so why won't the eight men and four women of maricopa county give her what she wants? >> vinny politan -- >> the answer is they shouldn't be knowing about it. >> well, they find out tomorrow, obviously. >> gentlemen, it's an emotive subject, and i understand why you both feel the way you do. thank you very much for joining me. coming up, extraordinary video of ariel castro in an early brush with the law. i'll ask john walsh from "america's most wanted" what he thinks of it. nurses are dealing with a wider range of issues. and there are ever-changing regulations. when you see these challenges, do you want to back away or take charge? with a degree in the field of healthcare or nursing from capella university, you'll have the knowledge to advance your career while making a difference in the lives of patients. let's get started at capella.edu.

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everyone, especially the missing and exploited children, john walsh from "america's most wanted." >> that's the aunt of gina dejesus thanking john walsh for helping families find missing children. john, i want you to take a look at this before we start, a video of ariel castro in an early brush with the law in june, 2008. take a look at this. >> let me see your driver's license. >> excuse me? >> see your driver's license, please. >> what's wrong? >> first off, your plate is improperly displayed. it has to be displayed left to right, not upside down or sideways. >> oh, okay.

i thought they told me the plate forward. >> the law says they have to be able to read them from behind. >> i just got it out, so -- >> let me see your motorcycle endorsement. >> that i don't have. >> i suppose what struck me watching that, john, was how remarkably calm he is, given that one false move there, and the whole pack of cards falls down. the police could get to his house, and everything would be uncovered. what was your take of it? >> because he's a sociopath, piers. he has no -- he's not afraid of doing these things. but this begs a bigger question. in 2005, he beat his wife, who is now dead. he beat her so badly, he dislocated both her shoulders, broke her nose, knocked a tooth out of her mouth, and she had swelling of the brain and a blood clot. and because her lawyer didn't show up in court, the police didn't arrest him. he had those women in the house. how the hell are you not arrested for beating your wife so badly like that?

piers -- >> it is -- >> it's mind boggling. >> it is mind-boggling. and what is also remarkable with your probing into all this is back in 2005, you appeared on my predecessor, "larry king" show, and you cited a direct link between amanda and gina's disappearances. let's watch this clip. >> who are we looking for here? >> we don't know. she still hasn't been found, this little girl. >> this is a missing girl. >> missing 14-year-old girl. >> do you presume? what do you do with stuff like this? >> well, there's another little girl, you know, missing in that six blocks from gina dejesus. so the cops say they're not related. i say they're related. i mean, come on. you've got one 14-year-old girl and then another girl down the street six blocks away. they haven't found either girl. and they have no suspects. >> i mean, you put all this

together, john. what you were saying there very publicly on cnn, that the beatings that he had had administered to his wife, which was well documented, other incidents we're aware of, other claims by neighbors that they had notified authorities of suspicious activity, which have been denied by the police. but they still insist that they're correct. you put it all together, and you've got a bit of a mess by the cleveland police, to put it mildly, haven't you? >> you know, piers, i am the biggest supporter of law enforcement. this morning at our national center for missing and exploited congressional breakfast, we gave out awards to cops who had saved children, broke child pornography rings that were torturing 6-month-old babies, videoing it and sending it around the world. the cops do a great job. but i had my problems back then saying these are absolutely related, and now my theory was they got grabbed the same way, and now they're finding out that little gina, her best friend, was arlene castro. and the day this creep allegedly got her, arlene and gina were together and arlene needed to

borrow 50 cents from gina to call her parent to see if she could stay over at their house. and so gina had 50 cents, gives it to her friend, arlene castro, calls her parents and asks if she can stay overnight with gina, and her parents say no. gina does not have the bus money to take the bus home and walks 30 blocks and guess who grabs her. i believe ariel knew that she was walking home, just like he grabbed amanda, just like he grabbed michelle knight, and he grabbed little gina dejesus, because he knew her. his daughter was her best friend. he was obsessed -- >> i was going to say, just to clarify, arlene castro is ariel castro's daughter. >> right. >> and so the families were inextricably linked in this way. >> absolutely. >> again, you have to say, where were the police? they would have been surely tracking any friends of the family and then tracking for any domestic violence incidents that

may be on record. it doesn't seem to me a very complex trail if the police were doing their job correctly. and i'm with you. i'm a huge supporter of the police. but when you put together also all of the appalling errors in the cleveland strangler investigation, none of this looks good for cleveland police generally, does it? >> well, let me say this too, piers. why i went on "larry king," because i was so upset they weren't linking the two girls, and amanda berry's mother reached out to me and said she has been listed as a run-away. i know, mr. walsh, that "america's most wanted" will help me. i know she wasn't a run-away, i can't convince police this. i worked for three years to get the amber alert passed through congress before they made it a national mandated policy that you issue a amber alert when a child goes missing. gina dejesus was never issued as

an amber alert. she should have been, she was 14. i am the father of a murdered child and it took me 27 years to get the hollywood police to open my son's case and let me bring in outside investigator named joe matthews and a d.a., kelly hancock, who solved 300 murder cases and had an impeccable track record. and in one month, they solved adam's case. i love cops, but, boy, when they make mistakes, they need to man up and admit them and do a better job. maybe that's the lesson we learn out of this horrible, horrible thing. and this guy, he's not just a predator. he's not just a child abuser or sexual abuser. he beat these women so badly that michelle knight was pregnant five times, and he didn't buy her birth control pills when he had her captive there. he didn't give her pregnancy devices. she got pregnant five times and he beat her and kicked her so badly she aborted. she miscarried. this a horrible guy.

this is a really, really bad guy. >> and final question, and briefly, if you don't mind. ashley summers. i spoke to her family last night who were understandably, extremely concerned about what may have happened to her. she was snatched in a similar part of that town around 2007. what do you think may have happened to her? do you believe from everything you've seen that she may be in some way linked to ariel castro too? >> i don't know, piers. but i do know that there are thousands of parents out there, just like ashley summers, whose kids have disappeared and police have said, "we're not getting involved. we believe she is a run-away." she was listed as a run-away. they definitively said this girl probably ran and look at the three women that were in that house. look at those women. for ten years they were in a house of hell and nobody looked for them, really. and i know the cleveland police have done a great job since then. and it was probably cops that were involved way back ten years ago. but i'll tell you what. i think there is a great lesson to be learned. it's a wonderful thing these

women are back, piers. but there's big questions about what went down in the beginning of these cases. >> certainly are. john walsh, as always, thank you very much indeed. >> thank you, piers. great day they're back alive. >> it certainly is. coming up next, a case against ariel castro and the jodi arias verdict. i'll talk to alan dershowitz and gloria allred. that is coming up next. as part of a heart healthy diet. that's true. ...but you still have to go to the gym. ♪ the one and only, cheerios ♪ the one and only, cheerios

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to say or express the joy that we feel for the return of our family member, gina. and now amanda berry, the daughter, and michelle knight, who is our family also. >> pastor angel aroryo is a close friend of the family of gina dejesus, and he spent much of the day with her to dday. thank you, pastor, for joining me. how is gina today, would you say? >> i can just say that in the few seconds that i've seen her, she is very quiet, you very happy and grateful to be home with her friends and family. >> obviously, some very joyous scenes there, or obvious reasons. but do you think the family are concerned about her mental state, her physical condition? how would you describe that? >> i really have no comment personally for that question,

i'm sorry. >> okay. in terms of the family, maybe talk about their reaction. they must be absolutely overjoyed, aren't they, to have their girl back? >> the family is totally, totally, totally overwhelmed and grateful and happy. so much emotions that they have been expressing, just happy, crying. just nine years, from the beginning, always said yes, we know gina is alive, we're going to find her, every single rally, every single vigil. when we have gone to different places, when i've gone with felix, her father, when we have gone to detroit, to toledo, to akron, and when we spoke in high schools and gave the pr presentations in the streets and the rallies, it has always been that gina is alive and we will find her one day and until that day comes, i will not rest.

that has always been the attitude of the family and it has been committed since, and they are totally grateful and happy, and i can't express any other way besides that they are just rejoicing right now. >> pastor arroyo, great to hear that and pass on our best wishes to gina and the whole family. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. lots of questions tonight about why it took so long to find amanda berry, gina dejesus and michelle knight. let's talk about that with my legal eagles, attorney dershowitz, gloria allred. and linda fairstein, child advocate. alan, did they drop the ball? >> we won't know as to how effective he was in keeping what he was doing secret. we don't want to adopt the

boston plan as a kind of model. close down a city, search every single house. they could have found them, probably, if they had engaged in that kind of total investment. probably they could have done more. but we always have to balance the desire to solve crime with need to maintain some degree of privacy and some concern for civil liberty. so the question of whether the police struck the right balance will become clear over time. if there were leads that they didn't follow, or if there were opportunities to do this sooner, obviously, they should have done it. fwou monday morning quarterback police action is a always kind of dangerous thing. >> gloria allred, would you agree with that? a lot of people are getting angry about the fact all these young women were snatched, one age 14, one 16, all in a similar part of town, all being held in a house a few miles from where they were caught. what do you make of that? do you believe the police have made some errors here to some degree?

>> i agree with alan that we have to wait for all of the facts to be known until we reach a conclusion, but certainly a review of what they could have done or should do in same or similar circumstances, and unfortunately, there will be same or similar circumstances and hopefully not as horrific as this, but it is in order, and we will have to wait and see. >> we want to take a short break and talk to, you linda, when we come back about how the young women will be adapting to the new lives out of captivity and get to all of you about jodi arias and should she get the death penalty. with the theory of relativity, the next... not so much. but that's okay -- you're covered with great ideas like optional better car replacement from liberty mutual insurance. total your car and we give you the money to buy one a model year newer. learn about it at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance.

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state of arizona versus jodi ann arias, verdict count one. we the jury, duly impanelled and sworn in the above entitled action do find the defendant as to count one, first degree murder, guilty. >> jodi arias, guilty of first degree murder, but should she be executed for murdering her ex-boyfriend? back now with alan dershowitz. gloria allred. let's get to you first, linda, let's get to what the full scale

of this man, castro is capable of doing. you have covered many sex crimes over the last few decades. what do you think of what we're learning? >> it is incredibly heinous. we have seen abductions in which the kids have survived for all the years of this occurring and as john walsh said, that the resilience of the young women and coming out completely unable to cope, and yet it is the coping skills to help them survive what this torture was, chains, ropes, tied to walls and pregnancies and miscarriages and come out in this case supported re really lovingly which helps enormously by the families and supported by the public, and there is going to be a resilience and you have seen it with elizabeth smart and jaycee dugard and to help prevent their attacker from walking the streets again. >> and now turning to jodi

arias, and alan, no real surprise she was found of first-degree murder, but the debate begins over whether she should get the death penalty, and she has come out in a interview that she would prefer the death imprisonment. >> and that is a tactic, because maybe some jurors will believe it is less expensive to execute somebody is millions of dollars with repeated appeal, and whether she gets the death penalty will be a question of random luck and prejudicial factor factors. if she does not get it, it is because she is young, female and white. if she gets the penalty, it is because the man she killed is white. these are factors that play a greater role in whether or not the jury imposes the death penalty rather than the heinousness of of the offense. usually, the death penalty is

not unanimously found by the jury, but when you have a situation where the woman lied to the jury repeatedly and insulted the intelligence of the jury, she may have walked herself into the death chamber as a result of a tactic that she and her lawyers employed at trial. >> gloria, apparently three women on death row in arizona which has the death penalty, obviously. do you believe she deserves it for the crime she is convicted of? >> well, it is for the jury decide and i don't want to invade the province of the jury, but having said that, the prosecutor has a strong argument for extreme cruelty, and if the jury in fact believes and i do believe it that she took him and when he was in the most v vulnerable state, and she planned for it him to be in the shower and take the photo of him and while the back is turned to knife him and stab him 27 tims s and to almost decapitate him, it is really torture and making him

suffer and then ultimately dragging his body around and shooting him at some point in the head as though the suffering was not enough. if the jury believes all of that, they are going to find extreme cruelty and weigh aggravating and mitigating circumstances and the mitigation may be that she has no prior criminal history, but the aggravating circumstances may be such that they will find that they have to impose the death penalty, and her manipulation of the jury by saying i want to die, and in other words, give me what i want and they supposedly may be reverse psychology to not give her what she wants and give her life is not going to have an impact on them. >> i agree. >> and linda, why are we so obsessed with the case, because america certainly is as it was with casey anthony, and is there something particularly fascinating about the two women that drives this extraordinary interest, really, because there are many cases that are not dissimilar to them? >> i cannot understand for a minute why we are obsessed with

this case, because it has taken too long to stri the try and in some cases in this country where there is an intimate tragedy, and the judge has lost control of it, and there is no reason that it has had the attention it should. >> alan, dershowitz, is it television, and for example, we don't have television in courtrooms, and so these kinds of cases don't get the attention perhaps they do in america where you can watch them almost like a soap opera. >> right. we have all gotten to know the woman testify ad nauseam and you cannot turn on the television to watch her testify, and she has talked to us, and insulted our intelligence and we are routing for outcomes in the case, but how attractive people are and how attractive their victims are plays an important role. the other case is amanda knox who said in her own book if she had not been perceived adds a

beautiful young woman, people would not have cared about her, and sometimes how a person behaves on the witness stand will depend whether they get any sympathy rather than the underlying facts. >> and gloria, are you a fan of television in the courtrooms -- we have lost gloria. linda, are you a fan of television in the courtroom, and do you believe it gets in the way? >> i don't think it aids at all. i think that when judges and participants begin to play to the el is -- the television cameras and the trial is changed when ito was having birthday parties for the reporters in the office in the o.j. case. so it is a circus. >> but on the other hand, americans have the right to see

their courts in motion. and we have too little supreme court arguments. >> that is correct. thank you, alan dershowitz, and we lost gloria earlier, and thank you, linda. command is loc. five seconds. three, two, one. standing by for capture. the most innovative software on the planet... dragon is captured. is connecting today's leading companies to places beyond it. where tonight we've switched their steaks with walmart's choice premium steak. it's a steakover. it's tender. good flavor. it just melts in your mouth. mine's perfect -- man! we're actually eating walmart steaks. to tell you the truth -- they're pretty good. are you serious? that was a good cut of meat! [ earl ] these are perfectly aged for flavor and tenderness.

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that is all for us now. at 9:00 p.m. we will have the

latest of the women found in cleveland, and along with jodi arias' guilty verdict. and tomorrow, more details from cleveland. a disturbing story. jada pinkett smith will be with us tomorrow. anderson cooper starts right now, see you at midnight. >> piers, thanks. good evening, everyone, it's 10:00 here on the east coast. we have a lot of breaking developments here in cleveland. there's a lot of developments that have stunned the people that live in this area. jodi arias is speaking out as her lawyers prepare to fight for her life. arias said she would rather die than serve a life sentence. but the question is does she mean that or is she trying to manipulate the jury. and authorities have released the 911 dispatch call that sent the police to 2111 seymour avenue. >>