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today, secretary lew took the first step by accepting the

resignation. >> this after more than 100 pages. he is on the grill with me tonight, live, plus horrible revelations of abuse and terry amanda berry, gina dejesus, and michelle knight, beaten with hand weights, ariel castro's wife also abused the same way. there is encouraging news that gina and michelle have spoken by phone. and one of the girls just discovered what an iphone is. also, jodi arias fighting for her life. >> the last thing he felt was the blade coming towards him. >> the jury found she was extremely cruel, and eligible for the death penalty. o.j. simpson never testified during his murder trial, and

finally he is taking the stand. >> do you think that you were acting legally? >> yes, i did. >> and why is that? >> well, it was my stuff. i followed what i thought the law -- >> biggest legal issues of the day, with gloria allred, and the big news of the day, ariel castro's daughter, emily is talked about what she saw in her father's house. she was interviewed in her prison cell where she is serving 25 years for the attempted murder of her 11 month-old daughter. >> the upstairs is blocked off with a big bass speaker. so i figured because he lived there so long, he didn't have any need for those -- what, there's four bedrooms upstairs. he didn't have any need for them. so i just kind of like -- i was like, can i, you know, sleep upstairs in my old bedroom. and he said no, because it's cold there. it's blocked off. you know, dusty.

and so i just was like, okay. >> we're going to cleveland, ed gallek is live for us. ed, every day there are new allegations, let's start with ariel castro's daughter who is serving a very lengthy prison sentence for trying to kill her baby. tell me about this. >> well, what stands out is her description of inside the house. again, talking about a base speaker blocking off some of the doors. and in effect, saying dad, let me sleep in my old room, and him saying, you know, the old room, it is dusty in there, the heat is not good. you don't want to go in there. and that is going to another point, how he was so secretive and able to conceal it. one story i heard, the women were put in a van, locked in the garage to keep this guy out of

sight when he knew he was going to have visitors come over. >> and in terms of the daughter herself, many viewers probably don't know much about her case. tell me what she did, because she seemed to have a complete mental breakdown and tried to kill her baby. >> yeah, she is doing up to 25 years for trying to kill her own baby, less than a-year-old, cut about four times. and this apparently, according to her, stems from a domestic problem she was having with the father of the child. but yet you wonder, some of the parallels are just chilling. >> right, absolutely. let's turn to talking of chilling. the statements made by ariel castro's legal team, i want to play a little clip from this because it really was quite shocking, i thought. let's listen to this. >> so when the judge at the arraignment says how do you plead to kidnapping? how do you plead to rape and whatever else, what are you going to say? >> it definitely is going to be

two words, not guilty. >> i can tell you that mr. castro is extremely committed to the well-being and -- committed to the well being and future of his daughter. >> he is a loving father, not a monster, when the sheer wealth of evidence against him to the contrary is right there in front of us. >> yeah, a couple of things stand out there. our news room talked to those attorneys just hours ago, they freely admit they are getting back lash, people are saying how can you represent an accused monster? you're not representing that guy. and their answers, hey, it is the american way, as attorneys everybody gets a fair trial, that kind of thing, but then again this guy is talking about how much he loves his daughter, the daughter born in captivety,

the child had never been to the doctor, had been born in the house, again when you consider i love my daughter but all of that? how can that be? well, the response we got to that today is we'll have to wait and see what all the circumstances are. and again, that begs the question on what kind of circumstances could possibly justify showing that you love your daughter? >> right, ed gallek, another big story today, o.j. simpson doing something he never did during his 1995 murder trial, taking the witness stand, simpson is serving three years for robbery, kidnapping and assault stemming from an incident in 2007. now he wants a new trial. cnn's george howell has more. we finally get to hear from o.j. simpson.

reporter: piers, you know, we saw an alert o.j. simpson, a person who seemed very comfortable back in the spotlight this time and for the first time telling his version of events leading up to and then during that confrontation with these two sports memorabilia dealers. but again, what did we see? we saw a 65-year-old who is heavier and visibly grayer. and instead of wearing those suit and ties that we're used to seeing this time. o.j. simpson sporting a blue prison jump suit, piers. >> and in terms of where this is going to go, it is going to come down presumably to his word against his former attorney's word, right? >> right, and there is a lot of ground work and foundation that he and his new attorney are laying down. but really it goes to the heart of this matter. o.j. simpson says he got bad legal advice. but get this, before the confrontation even happened he says that he had a conversation with his attorney and the attorney told him that he could go back, piers and take back his belongings legally.

listen to what he had to say. >> what was his advice to you regarding the entire plan? >> that if they didn't give me the stuff, we have to call the police. >> okay. >> and that is what i told everybody involved that if they don't give it to me, i'm going to get the police in there. >> okay. did you have any understanding whether you could detain people or not? >> not until the police came. >> okay. so at this point, your advice is no trespass on other people's property? >> yes. >> you can use some force. >> yes. >> you can demand your property? >> yes. >> okay, and if they refuse to give it to you, you can detain them for the police? >> yes, but i had no doubt that they would give it to me. >> you know, piers, there were also a couple of other big items that were mentioned. first of all, o.j. simpson says that his attorney did not tell him about a plea deal that he could have taken to take two years in prison instead of a

long prison sentence that he currently has. and he also says that the attorney told him, advised him not to testify in court, the attorney basically saying he would not be convicted. so he did not testify in court and simpson's new attorney is basically making the case that o.j. did not get that opportunity to testify against himself and the character for the several days. >> a fascinating insight about his relationship with alcohol, tell me about that. >> and we learned about this, the day before the confrontation, even the day of the confrontation, o.j. simpson says look he was in las vegas for a wedding. there was a lot of drinking before the confrontation, during the confrontation he said look, i wouldn't drive a car in my condition. listen to how he explained it in court. >> well, are you having any alcohol? >> yes. >> how much were you drinking if you can remember?

>> well, i had a joke that my doctor says i should never have an empty glass is what i should tell the waitress, we were celebrating, we were all celebrating. >> so simpson basically admitting that you know, alcohol could have been -- was a factor. it is still unclear how that could play out in the judge's mind. >> right, extraordinary, him finally giving evidence. now it is time for law and disorder, to break down cases that we're talking about from o.j. simpson, to ariel castro, to jodi arias. and our attorneys, all -- alan dershowitz. what do you make of him giving evidence? >> well, he is not a bad witness, most of the people advised him to stay off the witness stand during his murder

trial. that was good advice, i think, he has no shot of winning on the issue of his lawyer saying he should stay off the witness stand. that is just tactical advice, but he has a good shot if his lawyer did not tell him about the two years. >> but is that plausible? >> yes, the lawyers want a chance to be on television, in this case they could have been a conflict of interest. i have many cases where the lawyer fails to give advice on the plea. third, if the lawyer goes in and says this is what you can and can't do he clearly had a conflict of interest. he was then a witness, not a lawyer, so on two of the three issues he has some chance of prevailing. i think everybody out there ought to face one reality, if this were not o.j. simpson and if all americans didn't believe he had killed his wife and gotten away with it, no way is he going to get this kind of

sentence for doing what he did. he is being punished for what many perceive as having gotten away with murder. >> did you get all that? >> first of all, i think it is insulting to the judge who is the one that sentenced him. but i would respectfully disagree with mr. dershowitz in reference to his statement, oh, o.j. is not a bad witness, o.j. did testify in the civil case where the goldman family and the estate of nicole brown simpson were suing him for the killing of both of those individuals. and he did testify, and the jury did not believe him. and they found that he was liable for the wrongful death of nicole and ron. so i actually at the time and said my my book, i said he should have been investigated for perjury at that time because of what he testified to, he never hit, slapped, punched nicole. he said that, testifying to that

standing beside, or sitting beside large blown-up photos of her with a black eye. and obviously, that was not true. so having said that, he actually has 19 grounds that the judge is allowing him to present evidence to as to why he should be granted a new trial out of the 22 that he wanted and we'll see whether he is successful with any of them. >> but you know, the issue of whether he should be punished for what he was previously acquitted of, bears similarity to the irs, if you don't like somebody, it is justice, whether ordering him or giving him a harder sentence. gloria, i would like you to tell me if he would get 33 years for trying to recover his own property if his name were not o.j. simpson. >> well, first of all, he was convicted of robbery. and there were guns present, and although he denies knowing or having criminal intent and all

of that, the jury didn't buy it. so having been convicted of numerous counts. he was sentenced. i don't have any problem with his sentence. and now he tried to reverse it. we'll see whether or not he is successful. >> talking about behavior involving attorneys, i was pretty shocked by the tone that ariel castro's attorneys -- were you shocked? >> i was shocked. look, everybody is entitled to the intense, and if you have the unfortunate bad luck of being called to represent somebody who is genuinely a monster, you may have an obligation to do it. but you're not obligated to be a character witness. you're not obligated to go on television and tell the world this is a commendable person. you're obligated to go in court and tell legal issues, i was surprised, slipping over from a defense attorney to being a character witness. >> obviously, he is trying to affect the climate if there is a jury pool. if there is such a trial. i doubt there will be a trial. he is trying to position it for a deal so his client doesn't get

the death penalty. >> let's talk about jodi arias, one step closer to the death penalty now. i want to talk to you about other donald rumsfeld on "the grill." of hands in 5 uses. love it, or get double your money back. with the innovating and the transforming and the revolutionizing. it's enough to make you forget that you're flying five hundred miles an hour on a chair that just became a bed. you see, we're doing some changing of our own. ah, we can talk about it later. we're putting the wonder back into air travel, one innovation at a time. the new american is arriving. ♪ fly me to the moon ♪ let me play among thars

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especially cruel. we the jury, upon our oaths, do find that to aggravating factor, especially cruel, has been proven. signed, foreperson. >> jodi arias, the jury says cruelty was an aggravating factor in the killing of her ex-boyfriend, travis alexander, meaning she could face a possible death penalty when the jury reconvenes tomorrow. back with me now, gloria allred and alan dershowitz. now, that means she could be executed. should she be? >> exceptional cruelty or cruelty, we're going to hear the lenient factors, hard to imagine what they are, except her family saying she has been a good daughter or friend which i think will be hard to outweigh to aggravating factor with that. but it is not mandatory that the jury find the death penalty.

it's going to have to be unanimous, and that will be more difficult than finding she was exceptionally cruel. >> and the jury, saying yes, we think she is eligible for it. are they more likely to say, we think she should have it? >> well, the most likely outcome, she should get the death penalty. of course it was especially cruel, what kind of murder was not especially cruel. but in general women don't get the death penalty for domestic murders. o.j. simpson, the state didn't even seek the death penalty although it was a double murder, and obviously, whoever did it, did it with extraordinary cruelty. so whether you get the death penalty in arizona or anywhere else is extremely random and we should not impose the death penalty. >> i have donald rumsfeld, sweating out there, worried about what you would ask. if you had the chance to ask

him, what would you ask. >> well, if you think the irs commissioner should be fired. if you think the president of the united states george w. bush should have been fired for acting on faulty intelligence and sending soldiers to war. >> similarly, when nixon had a list and ordered me several times during his administration and other liberals, who he perceived was an enemy, how do we make sure the irs doesn't do this? >> he is not going to like this. and the resignation of the acting director of the irs, that is certainly not the end of the scandal. one of three that the white house is dealing with. we begin with jessica, jessica, first off the top, can you ever remember a time when a white house has been battling three big scandals at the same time like this? >> oh, i'm sure it happened during the clinton administration at some point, don't you think?

but i can't name exactly the day, this is unusual for the obama administration, one of the things the president has a problem with is quick response, they're really slow off the dime. but once they get into action they're better at reeling it in. it looks like president obama is finally in response mode and getting his foot in. he is starting today, piers. >> and the irs, possibly the biggest of the three scandals. tell me this, why is the acting commissioner, steven miller, why want there a real one? why has he had to go, when from what i hear he was not actually running the irs when all of this went on? >> you asked the money question because that is what everybody was e-mailing me to ask. no, he was not in charge when this happened. but you know, the man on top always takes the fall when something gets screwed up, bottom line, right? he was not in charge when all of this went down. but he is in he

was in charge when there was misrepresentation of this problem to congress. so he has to take some responsibility for that. and the auditor's report found there was shoddy management when he was on top. so he has to take responsibility for that. and in a letter to his staff, he said look, we have to resteady the boat and it will reset the team. i don't think it will end here, but it is a start, piers. >> and the fallout from the ap scandal, this morning, the obama administration wanted to reintroduce legislation to protect the identities of those sources from federal officials, where is that going? >> well, it is going further than it would have a couple of days ago. this is really interesting, piers, because this issue historically had bipartisan

support. in 2009, senator chuck schumer, an ally of the president was trying to get this through and sudden ly it got stopped in its track. according to schumer, the obama administration effectively didn't want it. they picked up the phone and called chuck schumer and said maybe it is time to reintroduce that reporter shield law bill. so that is exactly what he did. another example on all of these fronts the obama administration trying to do damage control. and this time through the legislation. >> and jessica, the third scandal, and hard to keep up with all of this. but benghazi, the massive e-mail dump. and the first look, it just seemed like the white house was being vindicated. many of the stuff coming out of the talking points being backed up by e-mails seemed to be at the cia's request. but the state department putting lots of pressure to remove stuff, as well. so where are we with this?

because the republicans are saying there are many more e-mails, we haven't seen them all. >> look, administration officials say this is everything. they say we've seen all the e-mails now. so if they want more it would only be notes about the e-mails. so they say this is the complete set. okay, that is that question. does this vindicate the white house. >> you will find whatever you're looking for. the cia seemed to take out the word al-qaeda, the cia seemed to take the attacked demonstration. if you're looking at press changes as well, there is evidence as well. the state department taking out the al-qaeda affiliate behind the attacks. there is evidence the state department did press for that change. so there is enough for both sides to grab at in these e-mails to keep this alive as an

issue for some time to come, piers. >> quickly, the pair of you, tell me which one of the three is actually the most damaging. i'll start with you, jessica. >> i think the irs because it hits americans where they understand it. >> okay, dana? >> absolutely agree. look, it sends a chill up our spine the concept of the federal government taking our press corps' e-mails or phone records. but i don't think the american people care as much as we do. the irs is something everybody gets, everybody has to pay taxes. they completely understand things they have to go through with regard to that. that is absolutely the worst. but i think if you take all of these together, big picture, the reason why they all have a common thread is because it is from the perspective of many people big government run amuk, that is exactly where from that republican point of view they have been worrying about for a lot of years from the obama administration. this will help them big-time,

politically, going into the mid-term elections. donald rumsfeld, coming up, more about tbenghazi and the ir, i'm going to throw every scandal at a man who has known a few of them in his career. -yeah! go, angie! -whoo-hoo! [ sound fades ] at a moment like this, i'm glad i use tampax pearl. [ female announcer ] tampax pearl protects better. only tampax has a leakguard braid to help stop leaks before they happen. tampax pearl protects better.

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>> i have reviewed the treasury department watchdog's report, and the misconduct that it uncovered is inexcusable. it is inexcusable and americans are right to be angry about it and i am angry about it. i will not tolerate this kind of behavior in any agency, but especially the irs. >> president obama speaking out about the irs scandal, and talking of the resignation of the acting commissioner. this crisis is just beginning for the white house. donald rumsfeld has more to say about this, and his new book is "rumsfeld rules," he joins me. how are you? >> excellent. >> well, we'll try and change that. >> come on, come on. >> you have been in this position where you get hit with all sorts of stuff and it all

comes like number nine bus, all at once. when you look at these three scandals in totality are they real scandals or run of the mill issues that any white house has to deal with? >> well, one is bad. two is four, and three is ten. it -- the pressure is enormous in the white house when this happens. it is the perfect storm. and we all have watched enough of our history to know that big and bad things can start from very small things. and the old rule is that there are two rules in washington. the first rule is the cover-up is worse than the event. and the second rule is, no one remembers the first rule. >> well, let's start with cover-up, because i want to come to the irs. which i think is arguably, which my two fell correspondents said are the most important to americans. but benghazi, the republicans

continue to say what is about a cover-up. it was about a deliberate attempt of the administration to avoid the american public hearing the truth. do you believe that, given all the e-mails that have come out today? >> i think the way to think of it is that -- as i think mark twain said, trust leaves on horseback and returns on foot. the united states, the president leads through persuasion, not command. he has to be trusted to be persuasive. and the incremental loss of trust, i came into the white house after the nixon resignation as chief of staff for president ford. and it was -- the reservoir of trust had been drained. and that is your leverage. that is how you lead. and what is happening here is incrementally, little by little, the press spokesperson, the president, other people in the administration saying things are

contradictory, and then they're confusing people. and then there is the second and third thing. i agree with you, i think the irs is what people worry about. the idea that the government with all of its money and all the tax dollars and all of those people turning against the american people is really something so fundamentally against what we believe in that that is at the moment the one that will have the greatest impact. >> we'll come to that in a moment. on benghazi, when i said i interviewed you on twitter tonight, i know you have an active twitter account, a lot of them said put him on the rack, he was among the senior republicans that took us into war, based on false allegations about wmd, who is donald rumsfeld lecturing president obama on the irs? what do you say to that? >> well, i would count them as kind of undecided. what you would say is anyone who suggests that the president lied

or that colin powell's presentation to the united nations is wrong. these are honorable people. they made their best decisions. the uk government agreed with it. the french government agreed with it. just a minute, just a minute -- just a minute. >> are you saying -- >> just a minute, congress agreed with it. hillary clinton and jay rockefeller and john kerry all agreed. there was a resolution passed by the congress, passed by the u.n. and it is easy for someone to throw out that allegation, bush lied, people died. but it is not fair, wrong, and inaccurate. that is what i would say about it. >> what is the difference between that and benghazi? i mean, are you suggesting that people, either hillary clinton or president obama have lied about this? >> no, i'm saying that what has happened is there have been different stories coming out. i mean, think of this. these people were well armed. the british were so concerned that they took their people out of benghazi. the people, the americans asked for security and didn't get it.

and four people were killed. and how was it explained? it was explained by the president that it was a spontaneous demonstration that related to some sort of a youtube video. >> yeah, but -- >> just a minute. >> but we now know the cia from the e-mails released today it was the cia who removed references to al-qaeda, a specific al-qaeda terrorist, removed those from their original talking points. it came from them. >> well, i don't know that. i think what we'll find is there will be hearings in the congress, they will go on, people will come on. and you will find that you're not quite right, probably. that there will be additional information. we don't have to go on what is out there. we -- what we can say is we don't know enough yet. take the ap story on -- that issue. i know i don't know enough about that to know why they did it. or what they did or whether they did something that mitigated that. >> but is it ever justified on

the ap thing, is it ever justified for any administration to basically order a hit on a news organization that may have been targeted to a hundred journalists, getting records of their phone calls, possibly getting their phone records, can that be justified? >> well, i've been in and out of government since 1962 when i was elected to congress. and i've been in the executive branch when a lot of things happened, and i have never seen it done. >> it is wrong? >> i said, one of my rules is if you don't know, say you don't know. and i don't know. when the attorney general of the united states stands up there and says to the people this ranks among the top one or two or three things most serious circumstances for our country, i say well gee, i'm not going to say much until i know what he is talking about. what is it? is there something so bad that

it might cause government to do something like that? >> or, as i suspect, is the potential person who leaked it so important and so high up the food chain they have got to find out who it was? >> i have no way to know. i just know i don't know. >> you know you don't know. i like that answer. >> i don't. >> that is the benefit of being entirely honest. >> when we come back, i want to get your thoughts on american terror and attacks on american soil. and also i want to get a rumsfeld rule from lynn cheney. >> my rule is that dogs don't bark at parked cars. it is a rule that gives you some comfort when you're a public figure because a lot of barking goes on. but the point of it is that as long as you're trying to do something that will happen. there will be critics. there will be people who object to what you're doing. the only way you get peace, the only way you can avoid criticism

altogether is if you don't do anything. i want to make things more secure.

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. back with me now on "the grill" is former defense secretary donald rumsfeld. >> why do you call it the grill? >> because i like to grill people -- stick him on the show for a half hour. >> that is a little arrogant, putting people on and grilling them. >> i don't think i will take lectures. i have two questions from my weighty guests before, over the irs scandals, alan dershowitz, are you as angry about nixon having an enemy's list? >> well, it is different. for a politician to say these are the people i like and these are the people i don't like.

and that is the enemy's list. and i suppose politicians do that. it is not a very productive thing, politics is addition, it is not very smart to do is that. >> any administration deliberately targeting people -- >> the irs, no, indeed, that is a totally different thing. once people get a sense that they have turned the government of the united states with all of those employees and all of those tax dollars against the people or some of the people, nobody likes it. the people that are not even targeted don't like it. >> i think it is outrageous, and i have no great truck for the tea party, but i think it is outrageous. >> it is also illegal, and anti-democratic and inexcusable and should be dealt with in a very, very firm way. >> was he right? the president to fire the acting chief of the irs? >> probably. >> should there be more heads rolling? >> well, i think some people may

end up going to jail. >> who do you think that will be, do you know? >> i don't, and i know you don't either. >> should eric holder consider his position, do you think? >> well, i have no idea about that. i just -- don't know. i think they need to have hearings. they need -- they may have to appoint a special prosecutor. and it has to play out over time. and you know, when i was a navy pilot, the thing you always remembered is if you're lost, you climb, conserve and confess, get altitude, take a deep breath and say you're lost. and take your time and don't put out partial information that turns out to be not quite right, even if it is well-intended. because then trust goes down. and that is the risk for a politician. >> but again, falls back to benghazi, as well. president obama, for two weeks would not say this was an act of terrorism. he said it was a terror act.

>> he said that once, and then he went around saying at the u.n. that it was a spontaneous demonstration because of a youtube -- and secretary of state clinton went to the families of the people who were killed and said we're going to find the man who did that video youtube or whatever you call it. and they promoted that inaccurate, narrative for days and days and days. and it was wrong, and everyone knew it was wrong. and the people on the ground knew it was wrong. and they knew they were well armed and they knew there was no demonstration. and i think the hearings on that are going to be terribly damaging. >> in terms of that and the irs and the ap situation, the real problem for barack obama seems to me as the president is that he promised to be different. he promised to be transparent. none of this looks very transparent, does it, the fact that we're having to pull these

e-mails out on benghazi, nine months later, kicking and screaming out of the white house even when they appeared to be quite helpful to them. all of it looks like a lack of transparency. >> it does, and trust gets eroded. the other thing that was disturbing was the people in benghazi, when they were under attack and then they were killed, and the president left town and went on campaigning in las vegas, as i recall. a president -- an executive doesn't do that. he calls the people into the white house and the secretary of defense, as i recall, leon panetta said that he had not talked to him about it. i think that the american people expect more of a president. i think they expect him to care, and to be engaged. and to call people in and say what in the world is going on? is there anything we can do. >> if it turns out that the president has lied about

benghazi, or about the irs, for example, if it turns out senior white house officials knew more than they're saying about what was going on and the original idea to target the tea party came from them, these are pure hypotheticals, how serious would that be? >> i think that the currency that a president has, a leader has, is trust. as it is incrementally eroded away, it hurts. i think i heard the president say he heard about this from the press. and i think the press spokesperson said that the white house had known about it for two weeks. >> eric holder didn't know about what his department was doing at all either, it is all a bit all. >> but he said he recused himself, and now, we find out he didn't do it. >> it is all very murky, let's take a break and get deep, down and personal with you, and get into this book, "rumsfeld's

rules," which is actually a damn good book. >> why do you act surprised? ...but you still have to go to the gym. ♪ the one and only, cheerios ♪ the one and only, cheerios a confident retirement. those dreams have taken a beating lately. but no way we're going to let them die. ♪ ameriprise advisors can help keep your dreams alive like they helped millions of others. by listening. planning. working one on one. that's what ameriprise financial does. and that's what they can do with you. that's how ameriprise puts more within reach. ♪

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and those people are what i like to call...wrong. metamucil has psyllium, which helps lower cholesterol, promotes digestive health, and helps maintain healthy blood sugar levels. metamucil. 3 amazing benefits, 1 super fiber. almost have six months of your current salary in the bank. with that, you will have the ability to leave any job at any time and never feel pressure to do something you do not think is appropriate. >> that is what her dad told me. >> donald rumsfeld's wife, they have been married 58 years, quite amazing, what did you make of the rumsfeld rule that joyce gave? >> well, her father told me that, he said he never went to college, came out of high school

and started working in montana. and then they moved to fargo, north dakota, and minneapolis and milwaukee, and he said there may be a time in your life when you're asked to do something you should not do. if you have six month's salary in the bank you can tell anywhere you're working for to go to hell. >> have you ever had that moment? >> that i felt that way. >> there are plenty of times i said no. >> like what? >> can you share one with me? >> well, sure, i have argued with presidents, i argued with people, i never have been asked to do something by a president that i thought was illegal or immoral or wrong. >> there have been twice as many attacks during the first quarter this year in iraq as there were in the first quarter of 2011. >> insurgent-type --

>> that qualify as an attack. it clearly has not worked, whatever we try to instill in iraq it has not worked. do you have regrets? >> of course you do, you would like everything to be better. of course the road you didn't travel it is always smoother. you look at the road you traveled it is always bumpy. that is the nature of things. you think of our country, the united states of america had slaves into the 1800s. had a civil war, thousands dead, women didn't vote in the 1800s. we have had a bumpy road, every country has different circumstances. now, are they better off today with the butcher of baghdad gone? saddam? >> are they? >> he used chemical weapons, the killing fields are filled with bodies. >> but as many people are killed

in places like baghdad and -- >> have you looked at chicago and washington, d.c., the number of people being killed there? human beings can do some god-awful things to human beings. but the country has been given a chance. will it be perfect? no. will it be bumpy, you bet. same thing in afghanistan, there are many more people being killed there now. americans -- when we were in office, i think there were 23,000 americans there. now president obama took it up to 100,000. six times the number of people have been killed. and is that bad? well, no, i think they have been given a chance. and the people that have served there have done a good job. they have got tough neighbors. the taliban is going to try to come back in. will it be a smooth path for them? no, but they have had elections and picked a president. and the country is vastly better off. the taliban were using the soccer stadiums to cut off

people's heads instead of playing soccer. now, can someone say it is not perfect? sure it is not perfect. nothing is perfect in our world, it is a tough world. >> in rumsfeld's rules, what rule would you have for me. >> well, i thought about that coming over here and i put down that the art of listening is indispensable to the right use of the mind. it is also the most generous, the most open and the most appealing of human habits. and you are in a position where you have to do that. and that was from the dean of st. johns college, a man named bar, a great book school here in the united states. and it struck me that that is a hard thing to do, to learn to listen. and -- >> i have a lot of problem with that. >> do you? >> no, i enjoy listening to interesting people. it is a fascinating half hour,

rumsfeld's rules, i highly recommend it. this is a fascinating book. good to see you. >> good to see you. >> we'll be right back. [ female announcer ] switch to swiffer sweeper,

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. this tweet is from anthony, he says i'm shocked to see you finally placing criticism where it belongs, the obama administration. which my answer is this, i criticize the president when he

deserves it. and let's face it. he is having a very bad week. anderson cooper starts right now. we have new details about the manhunt for the tsarnaev brothers, what really happened that night in the shootout with police. also, the latest on the investigation, i spoke with the dance teacher who lost the leg in the attack, we'll find out how she is doing a month into her recovery, and when she will be able to dance again. and also tonight, disturbing information on what allegedly went on inside castro's house in cleveland. how the three women were treated, the new law enforcement reports about the horror they n endu endured. we begin with breaking news, the response on the benghazi attack that left four americans dead. a while ago, president obama spoke out on charges that the irs singled out certain groups