on the planet, nsa leaker, edward snowden. rudy giuliani is here live to tell us what we should do about countries that help snowden. also, dr. oz in the chair. why james gandolfini's death should be a wakeup call to the rest of us. blockbuster opening day, why we can't let you hear what the prosecutor said in the trayvon martin case today. >> [ bleep ] punks, they [ bleep ] always get away. >> shocking developments in the george zimmerman trial. and is this toy gun too realistic? the man who invented it is on the grill tonight.

we begin with international manhunt for edward snowden. rudy giuliani joins me. how are you? >> i'm good, piers. >> i don't know what to make of all of this, i want you to clarify what i should be feeling. on my twitter feed today, i would say half the people want edward snowden brought back and slung in guantanamo for 30 years and the other half think he's some kind of hero. what is the correct view, do you think? >> i don't know. i never thought he was much of a hero. because i think you take an obligation to keep things secret, and you should live by that obligation and work through channels. at least at the beginning there was this sort of argument that he was revealing a program that a lot of people didn't know about, a lot of people in congress didn't know about, but to go to china, to go to russia, to now seem to be organizing to go to cuba and ecuador. this is a guy who's in favor of free speech?

you have to be kidding me. >> this is my issue. this is my issue, rudy, you hit the nail right on the head. this is -- let's come to what he's done since he did all this, in a moment. let's start first of all with his original action of linking the information in the first place. do you think there is a reasonable defense for putting into the public domain the material that he reasonably judiciously chose to put out there? >> there really season the a legal defense, there's an emotional defense. half the people that are tweeting are telling you, oh, he was revealing a secret that should be revealed. legally -- >> is there a public interest defense? >> you could try all that. if you could try on the law, he gets convicted in a second. he took an oath of office -- >> he's admitted that, he's admitted that he broke the law. so that's what i think -- i think there are two issues here with him, one is, he came out and said, look, i know what i've done as a crime.

but i believe it's in the public interest to have this out there. if you just judge him on that, i feel a lot more sympathy with him than i do since he went globetrotting to china, russia, and possibly cuba. >> he didn't want to take that gamble, i guess. i agree with you, i think the chances of his being convicted, even though legally he's absolutely clearly guilty. his chances of being convicted are equal to the texts you are getting, 50/50, he would have a shot at a strong emotional appeal to the jury. by having done what he's done. first of all, running off to china, making these additional allegations about the united states hacking china, which may not even be true. and trying to appeal to these countries that are very oppressive in the areas in which he supposedly is criticizing us. i mean, the united states is paradise compared to china, russia, ecuador and cuba, with

regard to the press. and with regard to secrecy and transparency. >> right, the other thing, donald trump tweeted today that this whole journey of adventure that mr. snowden's gone on, makes america look soft. do you agree with that? is there any more the president should be doing to try to bring him to justice? >> well, i think the president's doing everything he can to bring him to justice. i don't know what else he can do, he's using the legal system. i think his best chance in hong kong, with which we have a very good relationship. and with which we've done a great deal of interchange legally over the years. i remember doing it when i was u.s. attorney. it also turns out that we have extradition treaties with ecuador and cuba. we've done some exchanges with cuba. i hope the justice department is working behind the scenes to try to get this guy. because now it is affecting the credibility of the united states. we're looking like -- >> right, and one of the problems is that these other nations for perfectly self-interested reasons don't

want to play ball. let's watch what jay carney said today from the white house about this. >> we're just not buying that this was a technical decision by a hong kong immigration official. this was a deliberate choice by the government to release a fugitive, despite a valid arrest warrant and that decision unquestionably has a negative impact on the u.s./china relationship. >> you were chuckling there, rudy. >> i don't know if i agree with jay carney, i agree with him completely. this was not a technical -- technically, legally, they should have complied with our request, there was nothing wrong with our request. i've done many extraditions. this was perfectly legitimate extradition, it should have been complied with, they don't have a right to really second guess our laws. and the reality is, nine times out of ten, this guy would have been returned to us by hong kong. >> if edward snowden's name was lee chung and he came from

shanghai with four laptops full of china's secrets? they would have said, off you go, you're going straight back without trying to analyze the political gain? >> i think we would, piers. it would be different if he was spying on us, we caught someone from china, russia, ecuador, cuba spying in the united states, we're not going to return them. if he had revealed their secrets. you know, if he had made a revelation about china's programs el lily, and china wanted him back, and we had a sense that he was going to be treated fairly in china, i think we would send him back, i mean, the fact is, if he's sent back to the united states he's going to be treated fairly. he's going to have a trial, he's going to have a lot of people defending him. he's got some percentage of america agreeing with him now.

he's not coming back into a totally hostile environment. there's no real fear of persecution if he comes back to the united states. he's going to get a trial, the government's going to have to prove liz guilt beyond a reasonable doubt and he's going to have a lot of people cheering for him. i won't be one of them. a lot of people would want to see him convicted. he has a lot of people supporting him. >> that would have been an act of personal heroism by him. if he said, i'm going to reveal this, i know what's coming my way, i'll take my chances in the american court. i will appeal to the american people in that trial and tell them why i did this, there's a lot of people who felt his original information he released through. glenn greenwald, the guardian and others was legitimately in the public interest to be exposed. now he's seen as somebody who's going to the very countries which fly completely against all he stands for, and trying to get their help. that's where he misplayed it. >> i -- i don't agree that his original actions were justified correctly.

i think they were -- i think they were illegal and wrong. i don't think we elected mr. greenwald to decide what should be classified and what shouldn't be classified. when we start doing that, an awful lot of americans are going to die because mistakes are going to be made. his original revelations have put a lot of americans in jeopardy. in any event, he had a more justifiable case if he had stayed here and fought his case here. now, here's a guy that wants to be a hero with the first amendment going to countries that persecute people. hey, in russia, there are people that have been killed for criticizing the government. we're talking about countries that desecrate the first amendment and he's seeking their help and their assistance. to me, this guy is a total phony. >> rudy giuliani, always good to talk to you. thank you. >> thank you. so how strong is the case against edward snowden? and an extraordinary first day in the george zimmerman trial. i want to start with, there's

been a big fuss about glenn greenwald being asked whether he had aided and abetted edward shouldn't you, mr. greenwald, be charged with a crime? >> i think it's pretty extraordinary that anybody who would call themself a journalist would publicly muse about whether or not other journalists should be charged with felonies, the assumption in your question, david is completely without evidence, the idea that i aided and abetted him in anyway. >> you see, look, i'm a journalist, i've been a journalist for nearly 30 years. i find it extraordinary that a journalist would be complaining about a journalist asking him what seemed to be a perfectly reasonable question. edward snowden said, i committed a serious crime, the newspaper

has put this out there. surely he should be prepared to answer questions about whether anything they have done in cahoots with this guy, we don't know how far he goes, anything they've done borders on criminality. i think it's a perfectly reasonable question. >> well, it doesn't border on criminality. it's right in the heartland of criminality. the statute itself does publish the publication of classified material if you know that it's classified. and so greenwald in my view clearly has committed a felony. for him to take umbrage at the question. now, he's right, though, that the government doesn't usually go after the publishers, they don't go after the new york times, the washington post and the new york papers case, though they could have. they don't go after other newspapers in the wikileaks case, though they could have. they've made a discretionary decision to go after the leaker but not the publisher, but look, greenwald's a total phony.

he's anti-american, he loves tyrannical regimes, and he did this because he hates america. this had nothing to do with publicizing information. he never would have written this article. >> let me throw this to gloria. look. i -- you've expressed this view of him before, i actually quite admire glenn. i like those kind of renegade, more blogger than journalist journalists, guys who put it out there and are polarizing. i don't see limb as an enemy of america. however, there is an issue of him refusing -- >> i don't know how he does it. >> let me ask gloria. what do you make of all this? are the journalists remotely involved in any sort of criminal activity here? or should we be focusing on snowden himself? >> well, i think the journalist has the power and the right to ask any question that they want. and the person who is being interviewed in this case, mr. greenwald has the power of not answering the question.

or answering the question however he wants to. and it's bizarre that he's really upset that that question is being asked. it's an obvious question. i wouldn't necessarily call mr. greenwald a journalist, i would think of a journalist as someone who is neutral. i see mr. greenwald as more of an advocate, defending his source almost acting as a lawyer for his source. and -- >> don't all journalists do that in the end? i mean, they do, they defend their source. let's move on from this. it's an interesting point, i think greenwald should calm down a bit, and admit he's going to be asked certain questions. let's move on to the trayvon martin case. it was a strange day, and let me start with you, gloria, on this one. in the sense that the defense guy, don west decided to suddenly crack a very inappropriate joke which set a very odd mood for the day. listen to what he had to say. >> knock knock. who's there?

george zimmerman. george zimmerman who? all right, good, you're on the jury. nothing? that's funny. >> the whole point was, it wasn't funny, that's why nobody was laughing. if you contrast this with this clip, which is what the prosecution did, let's watch this. >> [ bleep ] punks, these [ bleep ] they always get away. those were the words in that man's chest, when he got out of his car armed with a fully loaded semiautomatic pistol and two flashlights. >> gloria, your reaction today to both of those moments but also the day in totality? >> the opening statement by the prosecutor was very strong, passionate, well organized, backed up by the facts that they

say. that they will put into evidence. and that was in stark contrast, of course, to the defense. that joke was obviously a misplaced joke, attempt at humor. perhaps he was trying to bond with the jury and what they've been through. but i think it backfired on him. a case involving a charge of second degree murder is not a case where a joke is appropriate, especially not in the opening statement, and i think it's going to hurt him. >> alan dershowitz, there were interesting nugget that is came out. george zimmerman is very large now, he's ballooned in weight since he was in custody. he was 200 pounds at the time. trayvon by contrast was 158 pounds. considerably lighter, and we were reminded very slight framed. also, you've had this tape we just played, we had to bleep some of it, where zimmerman's state of mind you could argue is pretty set against these f-ing

punks, the a-holes as he put it, who get away with it. it would indicate a mentality of a guy who wanted to get after this guy, come what may. what did you make of it? >> first of all, if i were george zimmerman, i would be furious at my lawyer, unless the lawyer told him he was going to open with that joke. i would ask my other lawyer to petition for a mistrial. i think he was insensitive. i can't imagine a worse opening. and, you know, you can't tell a client how to look, but putting on all that weight is not going to help him. because his defense is going to have to be, he was weak. he was underneath a much younger and stronger man who was banging his head against the ground and that he had no choice but to take out his gun and kill him. the way he looks now, it seems to me a jury might think he

could roll the guy over and just walk away. i think unbalanced, it has been going very badly against zimmerman, partly as the result of his lawyers problem. >> yes. i agree. thank you both very much indeed. coming up, tavis smiley is here. i want to know what he thinks about the trayvon martin case and about the obama white house. one... more... step! [ mom ] my little girl...she loves to help out on big jobs. good thing there's bounty select-a-size. it's the smaller powerful sheet

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or go to lifelock.cotoday. as you heard, a shocking start to the george zimmerman trial, with knock knock jokes and curse words. what's your reaction so the eagerly awaited day one of the trayvon martin murder trial. >> the joke wasn't funny. when you have to tell the jury it was funny, i would be furious

with my attorney, if my life were hanging in the balance. >> they've gone out of their way to try to park the raise sentiment to one side here. make it more a case of a local vigilante type character who's just gone after and gone into a fight with a young youth. do you think that will sustain itself through the trial or it inevitably will turn into a race trial? >> i think it's hard to avoid race in this trial. johnnie cochran said famously years ago, race is a part of everything in america. i said many times and believe race is the most retractible issue in this country. it's lard to imagine it doesn't rear its head, legitimately in this case. having said that, i don't believe that justice delayed is justice denied, but it's taken so long for this trial to get to court, they've beaten up on trayvon martin so horribly in

the process of these 18 months or so. i hope justice delayed will not be justice denied. >> there was no evidence of bruising on trayvon martin's fist. the implements that would have created them were not bruised. >> it will be fascinating to see how that plays out, the evidence that was allowed in, that's not been allowed in, how that's going to play out. i finished taping a piece before i came to see you. i was talking with a number of my staff personnel today, it so happened at this moment they were all women as we were transitioning from one show to the other. this topic came up about zimmerman, i found it fascinating that all the persons in my company at that point said to me, given that the propensity, the number of women

on this jury. the preponderance of the women on the jury, no matter what color they are, women tend to be mothers and there is -- there's a level of empathy -- >> that's what i think is going to be key. >> they have often times men don't have. their sense is, that trayvon has a chance of getting some justice in this trial, given the number of women on the trial. >> mothers hate to see that. they would not want to see their child subjected to that. >> i haven't followed the case as much as others have, i was fascinated by the conversation earlier, i really haven't been following the trayvon martin case much more. >> how much do you care about your own private data being made available to a government. >> i care tremendously. i think part of what's happened, part of what troubles me most, i

talk about this all the time. in the name of national security, we now have a government that's gone too far. they're out of control. it's sad to see in the obama era, i've said this before. it troubled me that a -- that three black men, mr. manchin -- black people know this, we've been through this before. even in the name of national securities, it doesn't make it better because african-americans have arrived at this level of authority, that we engage in activity that dr. king, the black panthers -- i think our country is a bit out of control -- we're a bit out of balance with civil liberties and national security. i don't like the idea that everything and anything can be done in the name of national security. >> particularly when you become

the president you say, i'm going to be different, i'm going to be transparent. the one thing this is not is transparent. the one thing jim carrey tweeted today, he cannot promote his new movie because of the level of gun violence in there, it was finished a month before sandy hook, he now feels he's going to make a stand. what do you think of that? >> we all grow, we all develop. and we all come into different revelations at different points in our lives. if on this side of sandy hook, that's the revelation that mr. kerry has come to, god bless him. you've been on the issue of gun control. >> to be fair to him, so is he. i haven't been watching his tweets since sandy hook. it doesn't entirely surprise me. difficult if you're on that movie, they put a lot of work into it, he did make the movie. an interesting case. >> it is disappointing since i last saw you, that congress punted. >> it's utterly shameful, isn't it? you can't even get background checks. >> congress punting on gun control. supreme court punting on

affirmative action. >> nobody wants to make a decision? >> yeah. >> that's what they're paid to do. >> let's ask about paula deen quickly. she's been completely vilified, dropped by sponsors. is it an over reaction? my immediate thought was unacceptable what she has done. if you were to get every american aged 55, 60 or over, put them under oath, have you ever used the n word in your life, it's a pretty disturbingly high number of people who would have to say yes. is it an over reaction? >> i'm not sure it is. corporations have every right to best serve their consumers, and if they think that having someone on the air who has admitted to doing this would damage their brand, god forbid the day comes up, you used it, cnn would have to deal with you, or pbs would have to deal with me. i'm not one that sides with corporatists, but they have to make their decisions. here's my issue with paula deen, we're not human and divine.

we're just human. what i look for in the lives of fellow citizens is growth, development. if you used it 40, 50 years ago, that's one thing. when stories come out that you've said and done -- >> it shows a pattern. >> you're so dark we can't see you stand against that wall, come out in the light where we can see you. that kind of off-color stuff is troubling for me. i look for growth and maturity. we all fall down, we all get a chance to get up. change is inevitable. but growth is optional. everything changes, but are you growing? >> i agree with you. >> that's a different issue. >> that's a good point. i want to leave by mentioning the new weekday show on blog talk radio. the show will run for 20 minutes a day, but goes on as long as you like. >> yes, i think internet radio is the wave of the future.

it has 20 million unique visitors a month. >> how long could you talk if you wanted? >> i'm no fidel castro, but i can go for a little while. it's having the opportunity to go live any time you want no matter what the breaking story. >> congratulations on the star on the hollywood walk of fame that's coming your way. >> appreciate it. >> a great, great honor for you, tavis. coming tomorrow, paula deen's sons break their silence tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. eastern. coming up, the doctor is in, he's here talking about what killed james gandolfini and what we can do to alter our risk of heart disease. i also want to talk to him about the flu jab he gave me. i got the flu a week later, dr. oz. bayer migraine formula, means powerful relief. its triple action formula targets migraines for relief of the tough pain, and symptoms that come with it. try targeted relief with the power of bayer. try targeted relief i dbefore i dosearch any projects on my home.

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new jersey flags flying at half staff today marking the passing of the late great james gandolfini. his funeral is set for thursday in new york. an autopsy confirmed he had a heart attack. fans the world over are shocked by his death. we're all at risk for hard disease. and dr. oz is in the chair with me. welcome back to the show. >> thank you very much, piers. >> an incredibly sad, tragic early end to james gandolfini's early life. you treated two of his soprano colleagues for heart related issues. you have a great perspective on this all this. tell me what your reaction was when you heard the background to james gandolfini's death. >> the soprano's is all about family, taking care of the people that are dear to you. they take care of their

families, they don't take care of themselves. when i first heard he died, that was the first thought to my mind. these wonderful human beings, they were on the cast of soprano's, while their show was on the air, they noticed subtle systems, symptoms that folks right now would have missed. it brought them to our attention, we were able to do life saving surgery on them. unfortunately that doesn't happen a lot, when young people -- 51 is young, it's not unusual for people that age to have heart attacks. it should be on all of our radar screens, the number one cause of death in america is still here, and still kicking. >> let's go through the checklist of what the warning signs should be, for anyone who is looking for this, worried about it, maybe has heart issues and so on, what should they be really really looking for? >> well, the first sign which both of these cast members had was shortness of breath. you may not think that's a big deal. most folks look for chest pain.

about half the people who have a heart attack never knew it was coming. they never realized the subtle signs were out there, because they were looking for chest pain. if you look like mr. gandolfini, that's a warning sign as well. a waist size that is more than half your height is a warning sign. the increased girth predisposes you to high blood pressure, diabetes and high cholesterol. if you don't know whether you have shortness of breath or not, you're not going to pay attention to your waist size, at least know those risk factors. what you last ate. often your last meal is truly the last meal. fatty foods literally close down the arteries of the heart, that's a problem, because if you already have a blockage there

and they spasm a little bit. you don't have any blood going to the heart, you have a heart attack. >> how much would it be a factor of his admitted previous cocaine use and sort of previous drinking and so on. does that have a material impact on later heart issues? >> it's a risk factor for heart problems, it can damage the heart while you're taking the cocaine or doing some of these other drugs or alcohol. it doesn't cause his heart attack. i have an animation that i think is an accurate rendition of what happened when he was in that hotel room. he goes to the bathroom, his blood pressure drops, there's his heart. let's go to the major vessel, that little plaque you see, that starts when you're 18 years of age. young gi's who died had autopsies. it ruptured, he had a big meal, he did something, strained on the toilet.

now they're building up a clot over a scab. what you just witnessed is the leading cause of death in america. that's what we're talking about with sudden heart attacks. what we're talking about, will it rupture in you? are you going to eat the wrong thing tonight? are you going to do the wrong kinds of activities? that's why the number one cause of death in america is hard disease, it also happens most oftenly on monday mornings, you've had indiscretions over the weekend. you're tense about the workweek ahead and you trip up. >> is it genetic at all this kind of heart attack? >> it is genetic, but it's only a third genetic, two thirds of how long we live is driven by our lifestyle. and that's why the young man, his son who found him in the toilet has to worry for the rest

of his life of witnessing your father on the bathroom floor, he's also got to think about his genes. if your dad or mom died of heart disease or cancer, don't think it's your destiny, it's not. it's the lifestyle that often drives whether you have that problem. if you don't have a big waist size your genes may not need to protect you against that problem you may not be predisposed to heart disease. very important warnings that you're giving. let's take a short break, come back and talk about famous people who have been in the news, various health matters. angelina jolie, and kim kardashian had a baby who weighed 4 pounds 15 ounces. and i want to grill you about this flu i got. i'm blaming you personally. out there owning it.

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the myth about these is that you can get flu or flu-like symptoms simply by having the shot, is that true? >> you cannot get the flu from the flu shot, the material is dead flu virus. it cannot cause a problem for you. it's based on whatever virus was present in southeast asia a few months ago. >> that is a myth? >> that's a myth. >> right, dr. oz, i want some answers out of you. i had never had a flu shot in my

life, and within ten days of you desecrating my arm, i went down with flu, and then i got it again ten days later. when i went to see my doctor in los angeles, he said to me, here's what happened, he had a lot of people coming in, who had had the flu shot, they had it for the wrong strain, the one that the government had basically put all the shots out for, it was a different strain that was getting people. does that make sense to you? >> it's exactly what happened. a few months after i desecrated your arm, i got -- god knows where you travelled to to pick up those two strains of the virus. the flu shot this year only worked about 56% of the time. most of the folks who got the flu shot who came down with the flu they didn't get it from the shot, the shot didn't protect them. there are folks who didn't get the shot because they don't think it protects them well, and this year they were on target.

>> can you just say you're sorry? >> i'm sorry, piers, i'm really, really sorry. let's move on to angelina jolie, she had a double mastectomy. one cancer survivor melissa etheridge called it a fearful choice and was critical. where do you sit? >> it's an interesting perspective. miss etheridge has the same gene and decided not to have the operation angelina jolie had. the big story is that not all these genetic predispositions are going to force you to have your breasts taken off or your ovaries removed. we're going to be told predictive things about our future, and then either act or not act, the real question is not whether you're brave or not brave or fearful or not fearful,

it's whether you embrace the fears that are out there, that's what this technology gives us the opportunity to do. if you know there's a risk out there, what you do with it is the real issue, not whether you run from it or run toward it. >> two pregnancies, one that's come to fruition, kim kardashian's baby, north west came in at 4 pounds 15 ounces. she looked very heavily pregnant. by contrast, kate middleton has gained much less weight. can you talk about what's been going on there for women who are curious? >> if you can keep your weight down within a reasonable amount, it makes life easier for you and the baby. babies who are born to moms overweight are more likely to have problems as they go through life. let me talk about the early birth of kim kardashian's daughter. a lot of kids are born early, we have four, my youngest was born five weeks prematurely.

i'm acutely aware of the fears parents have. their immune system is not fully developed. it's anything can you do to reduce stress during pregnancy and delivery is hugely valuable. i know that people consider hip know birthing, it takes the anxiety out of the delivery. we believe that a lot of emotional issues that happen in adults can be tied back to strenuous pregnancies and time around delivery. that tie-in, and early process of introduction to this planet has revolutionized what we think about the early childhood years. >> dr. oz, it's always fascinating to talk to you, even when year not giving me the flu. i want to you. congratulations on your emmy.

season five of the dr. oz show returns september 9th. you have a magazine launching in early 2014. as if you were weren't busy enough. >> if i can say one thing. i'm proud of this magazine idea. so many folks talk about the idea they want things written down for them. we can talk about life in an uplifting way and make it fun at the same time. i'm looking for it. >> that can be your first cover story, how dr. oz nearly killed me. >> fair enough. >> great to talk to you. see you soon. when we come back, is this toy gun too realistic? the man who invented it says it feels like firing an assault rifle. this is it. this is what matters. the experience of a product.

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teacher turned avengers, a video game controller that looks and feels like an assault rifle. it is controversial in the wake of the sandy hook massacre won't let his son play with it. welcome to you both. for viewers watching this, i want to show you immediately what this is.

>> this is an assault type rifle, and i'll just get -- >> this can be used with any game like call of duty, any of the popular games. >> anything, and other systems, x box, ps 3, pc, the new generation. okay. >> is it working? >> yeah. >> you were trying to find the game to play, right? okay. look, it is not going to work, but i can see what happens. you fire the gun at it. >> okay. there's a sensor here, so that basically when i want to, i zoom. >> right. >> okay. i'll show you right now.

i go like this, put my face down, it zooms, lift my head up, it does it, zooms, it has a kickback. there's a wheel that gives that kickback. i can reload. >> for all intents and purposes, it is like the real thing. >> yes. >> and feels like firing the real thing. >> yes. >> i get it. you don't like this much. >> no, i don't. >> i don't like it much. i have three teenage sons, they play these games and love them, but there's something about being detached in a video screen, when i see this, this to me is adam lanz a, hoerms in aurora coming to reality.

>> i agree. we have two boys 8 and 11 and they're not allowed to pick it up. in fact, after boston, even though guns were not involved in that, i told him you have to stop. this is not the time. there's too many things going on in this world, it is not the time. if i won't let our kids pick it up, i don't know that i want anyone else's picking it up. >> my sons would love to use this. they play other games, they have the wii and the tennis racquets, they'll say it is a natural extension because they're teenagers, but i don't want them to have it. i don't see how this is going to do anything other than make potentially disturbed minds even more disturbed. >> i want to show you something. these are not bullets. battery pack. >> right. >> it is a gaming gun. >> here is the problem. everyone tells me there's no link, scientific link, between

violent videogame playing and these atrocities. we know adam lanza was addicted to call of duty, we know the columbine killers, same thing. i interviewed a guy who shot his parents and this is what he had to say. watch this. name is joshua cook. >> a lot of these shooter games, when i would play these games, i just -- it did a lot for me mentally where i could release my aggression with these games, and i could almost bring my fantasies to fruition the way i would just immerse myself in these games. sometimes i would play them 12 to 15 hours a day without leaving my room. >> i mean, it was pretty clear he felt there that this was a direct link. and my sense is if people are slightly disturbed to start

with, these games can make them more disturbed and potentially trigger them doing something. i don't see how this, which is, you know, like an ar-15 shot in houston, looks a bit like it, fires like it, how is that not to a disturbed mind, and this is a sniper rifle. >> yes. >> how are these not going to make people like joshua cook, adam lanza and others, immediately i hate this. >> i agree with you. we had this discussion. >> i can see they're hugely popular but i hate them. >> yes. >> it is like a rifle, very exciting. a lot of kids will be doing this who potentially have a form of mental illness, we have seen a pattern of this recently, a guy here in los angeles in santa monica who picked up a real one and began killing people. >> and it is realistic. >> give you the last word there. you have your wife and me against you.

tell me ethically how this works for you. >> it works ethically because i have to say that there's -- should i say it? okay, i'm going to say it. there's five people that want one from your staff, said to me i want one of these. this is the coolest thing that i have. i would love to have this. your staff wants it. i meanand you know, would you take that away from them, the joy of having a little fun inside their house? >> i think the argument, the least effective argument i heard about guns, especially with the ar-15s which these replicate, they're just good fun. unfortunately it is not enough for me that they're good fun. when i look at the stories like the sandy hook kids, it is not enough for me that it is fun. something has to stop. this to me is quite terrifying escalation in video games, and i know there's a link because i interviewed these people and they told me there is.

>> when you were holding that sniper rifle, did you feel like shooting someone? >> no, but i'm not mentally disturbed, that's the problem. you don't know who is getting their hands on these. >> piers, are you not supposed to build a building that's high -- >> my final point, to be fair to you, the hollywood movies are just as culpable in this thing, everyone has a responsibility. david, i thank you for bringing it in. melissa, i am with you on this. >> i am with you. >> hope it is not successful. sorry, mate. next, self defense or murder, the george zimmerman trial. anderson cooper breaks down the testimony starting in a few moments. hi, i'm terry and i have diabetic nerve pain.

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good evening, welcome to self defense or murder, in depth look at the george zimmerman trial. all this week at this hour, we will be recapping what happened in the florida courtroom, break it down with some of the greatest legal minds. this is a controversial, racially charged case, we will bring extended moments from the court proceedings so you can decide for yourself what really happened that terrible night in sanford, florida. george zimmerman is accused of murder. he was a neighborhood watch captain when he shot martin. he doesn't deny pulling the trigger. the case hinges on why he shot the african-american teenager. zimmerman says it was self defense. the jury of six women will decide the case. the trial began today in