this is "piers morgan live." welcome, tonight drama in the courtroom. trayvon martin's friend takes the stand for the second day. the teenage girl who has a unique way of making sir sound like an insult. >> he did not tell me that, sir, he just told me he trying to get home, sir, but the man was still following -- following him, sir. >> and the last moment of trayvon martin's life captured on a chilling 911 call. >> [ inaudible ] >> do you think he's yelling help? >> yes. >> there is gunshots. we'll break down today's testimony and more on the woman

everyone has been watching and talking about. >> yes, sir. no, sir. yes, sir. no, sir. yes, sir. who is rachel jeantel? also, one of the 27 nfl players charged with a crime since the super bowl. >> despite the fact he has a fiancee and a baby and is a homeowner, he also has a means to flee and a bracelet won't stop him and not the $250,000. denying the bail. >> does the nfl have an image problem, or will the fans forgive as they normally do? i want to begin with the teenage girl, rachel jeantel took the stand today for a second day and face add heated cross-examination from the

>> you didn't have information from the news this was racially charged. >> no, i don't watch the news. >> okay. are you okay this morning? >> yes. >> you seem so different than yesterday, just checking. did someone talk -- >> is that a question? >> yes, did someone talk with you last night about your demeanor in court yesterday? >> no, i went to sleep. >> i went to sleep. i watched most of it, martin, live today and found it quite gripping because they have a 19-year-old not very well educated young girl, up against a super bright criminal attorney on the attack, and i genuinely felt by the end she held her own and although, i don't think everything she said was likely

to be entirely accurate given her age and experience of dealing with these things, i did find quite a credible witness. >> right, and i think that was part of the problem for the defense because this went on for so long and the longer it went on, the more people began to observe exactly what you were saying, is that here you had a man that is an expert at talking to witnesses. here you have a young lady that probably never had to testify in the national spotlight before and she did seem to hold up. did she speak the way most people would speak? no, she didn't use the king's english or anything like that, but she did hold firm to what she maintained, and as i say, that courtroom really was taking sides. some rooting and some not believing what they were hearing. >> martin savidge, another gripping day in court. thank you very much indeed. i'll bring in natalee jackson, she's an attorney for trayvon martin's family. natalee, welcome back to the show. >> thanks for having me.

>> fascinating day and really about this young lady rachel. you know her better than i do and most people. tell me about her. what kind of woman is she? >> well, actually, i've only met her once but i'll tell you this is a person that did not want to testify. she didn't want to talk to sybrina fulton about this case, and she certainly didn't want to talk to police officers about this case. i think we have to put her into context, piers. she's 19 years old. she heard her friend die. she heard the last moments of her friend's life and didn't find out about it until later that he died from that phone conversation. since then, this is a national spotlight case, so everyone in the world is criticizing her testimony that's been all over the internet, her interview, the way she speaks, the way they thought she looked because they thought she was someone else. it not easy for a 19-year-old and today, rachel jeantel had to go through it for a year and a

half and will have to keep going through it. this isn't her first time meeting don west. she's been drilled and deposed by jon wes prior to the stand. she does not like him and he's made his disdain for her. >> right, and i think she's definitely held her own, if not edged it i would argue. i want to play a contentious moment of today's testimony. let's play this and i'll come to you for your reaction. >> what made you think it was racial? >> yes. >> and that's because he described him as a creepy ass cracker? >> yes. >> so it was racial, but it was because trayvon martin put race in this? >> no. >> you don't think that's a racial comment? >> no. >> you don't think that creepy

ass cracker is a racial comment? >> no. >> so natalee, let's discuss natalee creepy ass cracker, because the country i come from if you're call add cracker, it means you're exceptionally good looking. i don't think that's what was intended in this context. would you use that phrase? i wouldn't say you would in polite company, but is it an offensive term? >> it is but however, later she cleared it up because if you listen to her testimony in whole, she also said that trayvon said this nigger is following me. he used nigger and creepy ass cracker interchangeable to disscribe zimmerman. she said that's slang in the neighborhood she grew up in. >> right -- >> slur words you don't like. >> right. let's tear up, what is a creepy ass cracker and what does it mean?

>> well, i think creepy, you know, speaks for itself. it's someone that is weird, that is just following you, suspicious and just, you know, gives you the chill -- makes you afraid. in florida and i guess other southern states, cracker some people embrace the term but the way nigger is used among the black community among some people -- >> is it a derogatory term used by black people about white people? >> it's a derogatory term used by white people about white people and black people about white people, yes. >> okay. but as far as you are concerned, from your knowledge of young people and maybe other trials that you've been involved with and so on, it would not be deemed automatically to be a racist slur? >> i would deem it a racist slur, so i mean, it's all where you're from, piers, and that's

the problem with this whole, you know, this whole case is that people want to categorize and group certain people or certain races and think they have the same thoughts, the same way of speech. they don't. we don't. so among my friends, yes, it's a derogatory term. around dd's friends it means that dude. so -- >> right. >> i'm sorry, around rachel's friends. it means that dude. it depends where you're at. >> i think that's absolutely right and i think she's from a different generation from don west and i admired her ten nasty in the way she stood up to him. we seem to have conjecture. there is a report she went to miami senior high and studied criminal justice for awhile. do you know about that? >> i don't know about that. like i said, i've only met her once. it was a short period of time.

since that time, i have not had any contact with her. >> okay. let's move on to trayvon's family. it's of usually been already upsetting and distressing in parts for them. how are they dealing with the reality of this trial now? >> i think for them once again, they feel like their son is being put on trial as opposed to george zimmerman. so i think that you can understand that. here we have a kid who was walking home from the store, talking to a friend on the phone, and people are wondering if he did something wrong because he was shot and through the heart with a hollow point bullet. i think you can understand their feelings. it's hard -- >> no, absolutely. it's heart breaking for any parent to have to go through this yet again the way they had to for the most of the last year or so. in terms of the way the legal case is playing out and in particular the evidence of

rachel jeantel, are you feeling quite confident that you've established now from everything that we've seen and heard in the first few days certainly a clear indication that it looks like george zimmerman was following trayvon martin and that could be significant? >> yes, i think that it's been clear. we've had, you know, witnesses talk about that but we didn't need witnesses for that. we heard george zimmerman say he was following trayvon martin by his own words. that's clear. what rachel jeantel established is that george zimmerman started the confrontation. that was the crux of her testimony. she said that she heard george zimmerman approach trayvon. she said that she heard trayvon saying get off. that was the crux. her statement on those two things have never changed from beginning to end through all her testimony and all her interviews. >> natalee jackson, thank you very much indeed for joining me. >> thank you very much. here now to break down the dramatic day, the host of "in

session" jane win drop and gloria. start with you gloria as you have the great honor of sitting opposite me and gleaming orange today. green yesterday, orange today, like a fashion show with you this week. let's get serious. this is a river visiting case. this young lady, rachel jeantel today, electrified everybody. i was on twitter watching the reaction. it was extreme both ways, and if you want to tweet me at piers morgan, give me your view about this trial so far, but really very, very fascinating testimony. but from a legal prospective, where are we? >> i think she did take some punches. i mean, it's difficult to be under cross examination. it's like having invasive heart surgery without anesthesia. yesterday she team seemed to be a different person than today. i don't know if she went to military boot camp overnight or someone advised her.

however, she was much better today. however, i think the creepy ass cracker comment that you asked about, i think that's important because i think that the defense is trying to show that in fact, it was trayvon martin who perhaps may have hidden and jumped out at george zimmerman and that -- >> his own form of racial profiling -- >> yeah, maybe he had racial hostility or fear -- >> do you think -- is it a racial slur? >> well, definitely is a racial slur. it is offensive. it means different things in different communities, but even trayvon martin's family's attorney just then conceded that it is a racial slur. >> right. >> but she says it may mean some dude. it definitely is going to, i think, be argued by the defense there was a reason they wanted to keep bringing that out. >> right. >> and bringing it home to the jury and repeating it and

because it ties into their theory that maybe he was the one who began the assault on george zimmerman. >> vinnie paulson, what do you make of it? it does as natalee jackson said, comes down to two key things. one is was george zimmerman following trayvon martin against the instructions of authorities? we know from the tape he was told not to do that and did he start the confrontation, the altercation with trayvon martin or not? if both those things are true and i'll verify it to be true as this trial continues, very hard to see how he can successfully argue self-defense. >> yes, but here is the problem, okay, you've got two people there at the moment of confrontation only one survives to tell the story. so george zimmerman is around, and he can tell his version. what the prosecution had, the closest they had to trayvon martin in that courtroom was rachel jeantel today. so her credibility, her story, her account of what she heard is

so important for the prosecution, and they have the burden, piers. they have to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt, and to rely on her is going to be difficult, but we'll see what the six women of seminole county thought of this young woman on the stand. >> all right. absolutely a crucial part of this. it's all women. let's take a short break and get jane on this, you're a defense attorney. i want to see how you think the defense is doing. how can you get back pain relief that lasts up to 16 hours? with thermacare heatwraps. the only wrap with patented heat cells that penetrate deep to relax, soothe, and unlock tight muscles. and now, introducing reusable thermacare cold wraps. pain relief without the shock of ice.

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so the last thing you heard was some kind of noise like something hitting somebody? >> that trayvon got hit -- trayvon got hit. >> you don't know that, do you? >> no, sir. >> you don't know that trayvon got hit -- you didn't know at that minute that trayvon didn't take his fist and drive it into george zimmerman's face, do you. >> please lower your voice. >> do you? >> no, sir. >> will rachel jeantel's testimony be the key to the case and does the jury believe her? let's go to you, jane, if i may, straight away from a defense point of view. plant on image in the jury's head of look, trayvon martin clearly threw the first punch or

blow in this altercation. >> well, it's very difficult road to go down, but as a defense lawyer on cross-examination it's not his job to be nice. she was an absolute gift to the defense. every time that everybody is talking giving her a pass because she's 19 years old and only a child, we put people in military at 18. so she's not a little child. she's very experienced. these aren't inconsistencies but lies. she admitted to three important things for the defense today. one, she admitted that he did call zimmerman a racial slur. two, she admitted that he acknowledged that he was getting angrier and angrier as he was being followed or her perception is he was getting damn mad at zimmerman so that's revving him up and the most important thing she acknowledged is trayvon martin said to george zimmerman, why you following me?

and that is the initial beginning of the confrontation. everybody can say what they want. the bottom line is who was on top out what moment and when because in tussling they probably went both rounds. zimmerman was bloody, had a broken nose to show. the woman -- his neighbor didn't recognize him within five minutes and the back of his head was smashed in on the cement. that did not happen being on top and being the aggressor -- >> actually -- >> here -- >> hang on. >> hang on one second. we -- vinnie, you take over. >> okay. here is the thing, though, in trayvon initiating the conversation, you have to take it in context. she also described how trayvon was saying he was behind him. he was following him. why is george zimmerman still pursuing him? his -- his direct quote to investigators the next day at the scene is that i walked straight back to my car. well, this confrontation was

this way, so he didn't go straight back to the car -- >> vinnie, you know better. justifiable force under the law, it doesn't matter what he should have done. she shouldn't have had a gun -- >> he is lying, though. why is he lying to police? >> that's not -- >> he's on trial -- >> let me bring in -- >> let me bring in gloria. >> gloria? >> we talked a lot about stand your ground law in this case but i think she stood her ground and obviously, as she doesn't have perfect testimony, some lie haves been pointed out. she had explanations for why she lied about going to the hospital instead of the funeral. she had explanations about why she lied about her age and maybe -- >> gloria, she's 17. >> and having said that, you know, i think that there are people who are going to believe her. there are people who will disbelieve her. the problem is she's a prosecution witness, and she really needed to bring it home, and i'm not sure that she did bring it home to every member of the jury.

>> let's watch a couple clips here. these are two of the crucial bits of testimony. the first one, let's watch this. this is about hiding in the bushes, watch this. >> so he told you that he could see the man again and the man was behind him, correct? >> yes, close. >> sure. >> yes, sir. >> and if he were hiding somewhere and the man walked close to him, they would be close together, correct? >> objection, argumentative. >> in any event, your sense of it was that they got close together at that point? >> he got close to trayvon, yes, sir. >> and the second clip i want to play straight away, this involves on what rachel said about that. >> you're saying that if trayvon martin was getting ready to assault this man that he would have said hang on a minute, i'll call you back. >> same objection, argumentative.

>> just one second. over ruled. >> no, sir. he would not let me on the phone -- >> no, sir, he would not -- >> allow me on the phone with him if he was about to have a fight. >> i didn't -- >> sir. >> i didn't understand that. say that again what about that he would have told you if he was getting ready to have a fight? >> if he was going to continue front the man, he would tell me i'm about to confront the man, see what he wants. he did not tell me that, sir. he just told me he trying to get home, sir, but the man was still following me -- following him, sir. >> see, vinnie, as i thought from the start of this, the bottom line is george zimmerman didn't have to get out of his car. didn't have to go after trayvon martin. the guy was unarmed, 17-year-old kid with a bag of skittles. i just don't understand why he

can successfully claim complete self-defense when all of the aggressive action until the point of this collision is from him. he's got out the car. he's defied advice of the authorities on the phone, and as she said there, rachel, in her testimony, would she have carried on talking to him on the telephone right to that point, if trayvon was the guy going after zimmerman. >> right, if you're hiding in the bushes in the darkness waiting to assault someone, why are you on the phone talking to your girlfriend or your friend? that's a problem that the defense absolutely has. the other problem is george zimmerman's inconsistent versions. you know, we're grilling this 19-year-old. she's not on trial. george zimmerman is and he's given multiple accounts with slightly different versions of what trayvon martin is saying to him -- >> vinnie, he had a lawful right to be there, and that's what the -- >> you don't have a lawful right to lie to police. >> vinnie, you keep going back to that. >> yes. >> there were three elements to

get a conviction in this case. the first, to use justifiable force, and the first is was he committing a crime? no. he was where he was allowed to be, george zimmerman -- >> was he lawfully -- no, no, if he begins the confrontation, he's lawfully there. >> he was lawfully on the property, was he not? yes. >> he put his hands on trayvon martin and stopping him, that's not lawful anymore. >> we don't know who put whose hands on who first. that's the problem. >> the problem is her testimony has evolved over a period of time, and she has been discredited somewhat. will they believe some lies cause them not to believe all of they are testimony or just part of her testimony. did they find her authentic but not truthful but not reliable? these are questions the jury will have to resolve. >> okay. gloria, jane, vinnie, thank you indeed. i'm sure we'll have you back. a riveting case.

a close look at the star witness in the george zimmerman trial. that's coming up next. rachel jeantel is the star hi, i'm terry and i have diabetic nerve pain. it's hard to describe, because you have a numbness, but yet you have the pain like thousands of needles sticking in your foot. it was progressively getting worse, and at that point i knew i had to do something. once i started taking the lyrica the pain started subsiding. [ male announcer ] it's known that diabetes damages nerves. lyrica is fda approved to treat diabetic nerve pain.

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rachel jeantel is the star witness. what does that all-female jury think of her? joining me is criminal defense attorney, mel robins and joe alan demetrus and judge hatchet. mel robins, you were there in court today. how would you assess the temperature of the jury as this was going down between rachel jeantel and don west? >> well, i can tell you exactly

what was going on. i'll walk you down the line, piers. you have the woman hispanic sitting in the front, and what was interesting about her today. she did not look at rachel barely once in the 45 minutes that i was sitting there watching it. she had her eyes focused on the attorneys piers. she did not want to be there at all. she didn't like rachel at all. she didn't look at anything. then you had the juror next to her, she's the woman that had the concealed weapons permit also called the police on kids in her neighborhood that were doing graffiti. she was visibly turned off, as well. the next two jurors were big notetakers. they had their heads down and watched the exchange like a ping-pong match, yes, sir, no, sir, yes, sir, no, sir, and the woman behind them, this was interesting, she was also intently leaned forward and there was a moment she couldn't understand what rachel was saying and raised her hand and said could she repeat that? i would say half of this jury is

engaged. they are taking notes. the other half, the other three women, piers, are turned off by the disrespect, by the tone, by the demeanor and that's a problem. >> joan, this is your will house, you're a jury consultant and expert. what would you make of the all-female six person jury? >> this is the first witness that anybody has seen in this case and she comes in and i'm sorry, she comes in in jeans and a sweater and a little blouse. it's not exactly creating the image of what i think the prosecution wants to present. it does not have the respect that usually a witness has when they walk into the courtroom, number one. number two, i think her demeanor in terms of how she responded to the defense yesterday before she

was worked with last night certainly did not show again any respect for what happens in the courtroom. jurors are painfully aware of a witness coming in. this becomes their home, and when they see a witness react the way that rachel did, that's going to be very disturbing, and we also know, finally, that women are much harder on other women than men are in evaluating a woman. >> well, that is true. let's go to maya franklin. having said all that, as i say, i watched it all live and i did find her not only a compelling witness, but also somebody that overall i tended to believe, even though she was awkward and a bit edgy and confrontational and so on. >> well, for me, i thought that, you know, there was a lot of flak that rachel caught with respect to her demeanor and respect to her. it's important to recognize she's 19.

she's, you know, been a witness to a horrible crime, and she's sitting feet away from someone whose admitted to killing one of her good friends. i mean, i think that would any of us at 19 be that polished to be able to relive over and over and over again those excruciating details? i thought that the defense after awhile really started to look like a bunch of bullies because they were trying to trip her up and regardless of what you think of her delivery, she was consistent. >> yeah, but let's -- >> wait -- >> the real problem is -- >> no, but let me just say this. i think i wouldn't go as far to say she was consistent, but i would say, piers, i thought she was authentic. because she could have come in and said all these floury wonderful things and yes, i heard zimmerman threaten to kill him. i mean, she really wanted to come in and say some things and really be a liar, she could

have. >> right. >> but instead, she made the comments about the -- you know what he said, was it distasteful? yes, it was. i think there is a generational as well as a cultural gap. that is not to excuse the comment, but i think between the defense attorney today and this witness, i really think the longer she was on the stand, the more sympathetic that she became. i really do. i think that she left there in much better shape than she came in there. >> yeah, that's what i thought -- >> i also thought -- >> i have to say my overview, mel, is that is what i felt as a viewer watching. >> here is the deal -- >> yeah, and i think it's important to recognize, too -- >> let mel speak -- >> so look, being in the courtroom with her, i believe she came off as credible, but not reliable. and that means that the prosecution didn't win with their star witness because they are not going to meet the burden. i mean, at this point, you know,

part of the problem with this witness is that yes, after seven hours on the stand, was she better off at the enthan she was -- >> you know, the reality is -- >> they didn't get where they needed to go. >> but we don't -- >> the reality is -- >> the prosecution doesn't have to win -- >> the reality -- >> she witnessed -- she testified. >> wait, wait, wait, okay -- let's will be let's take this one at a time. >> the reality is she was not consistent in her statements. she's been giving statements to the police. she's given statements in depositions, and she's not being consistent, and granted, i will give her her age as being an underlying factor, perhaps in some of that, but these are all of the pieces of the puzzle that the jurors are going to be evaluating as this trial goes on, and the fact that you have -- >> okay, okay. >> three female jurors that were. -- were not listening says

she was not credible. >> of course, you're going to say something different to a grieving mother to her than you would say to a criminal attorney or to the police. >> and i have been a witness. as a trained lawyer, it's not easy being on the stand and i was at a funeral of a friend who was murdered my freshman year in college, and i was devastated. so i can't imagine what this young woman is going through. it's not to excuse what has happened but there will be other inconsistencies with other witnesses and i don't believe the prosecution's case rests solely with this one witness and i do believe she established the fact trayvon was being followed and established the fact he was frightened and trying to get away, and i think those are all positive points for the prosecution. >> i agree. back -- >> it's important -- yeah, i

just think that it's important to recognize, as well, when she was on the stand there is a lot of generational cultural gaps on display and i think the fallout she received is indicative of the gaps, not only in the courtroom but the country, as well. if you look at twit e it exploded yesterday and people wanting to know who is this girl and why doesn't she look like me? why isn't she doing what i need her to do? and i think it's important to realize that you don't have to understand something in order to respect it, so i hope that's something that the jury walks away with -- >> and english -- >> the bottom line is. >> english is not her first -- >> i actually like this panel. come back again, maybe even as early as tomorrow. i really like this. i got to leave it there. i got three teenage sons, they will call me a creepy ass cracker by tomorrow morning. that's what happens in these trials when you have twitter involved. still ahead, what is coming up in court tomorrow and next the high-profile murder case unfolding tonight.

ex nfl star aaron hernandez under suspicion in another double-murder homicide. ♪ ♪ hooking up the country helping business run ♪ ♪ trains! they haul everything, safely and on time. ♪ tracks! they connect the factories built along the lines. and that means jobs, lots of people, making lots and lots of things. let's get your business rolling now, everybody sing. ♪ norfolk southern what's your function? ♪ ♪ helping this big country move ahead as one ♪ ♪ norfolk southern how's that function? ♪

ex-nfl star aaron hernandez is charged in the death of a murder of a friend but police are investigating a double homicide in boston last year.

the latest nfl star to be charged with the crime but does the league have an image problem, or do fans forgive and forget? we're joined with rick raleigh and rachel. rachel, i had bob on recently talking about this gun culture that pervades the nfl but despite these incidents, no real evidence it has any direct damaging effect on the nfl as an institution as far as fan's reaction. >> people aren't watching to see whether the patriots or jets are better citizens. they are watching to see them beat on each other. i think people in general expect the nfl players to play. they are not as interested in their off court -- in their off field lives but when it reaches a tipping point it becomes a problem and a few years ago roger gudel decided it was close to the tipping point. he instituted a tougher set of rules. he can suspend players earlier for off field incidents and do it before they are convicted. they don't get a trial.

he is judge and jury. so they are making an effort to clean things up for fans but honestly, it doesn't seem like the fans care much. you see ratings going up and up and up and up and the nfl wins the night all the time. >> that is a non-deniable fact. the nfl is so strict with rules. the player's socks have to be measured to hit the right height. what is not measured is gun cabinets. is this a sign of a problem with the nfl or a wider issue of america's culture or relationship with guns and the fact the crime rate in the nfl and players is probably like the crime rate outside the nfl. >> they are worried about the mice and the elephants are running over the sport. this is the 27th player arrested since the super bowl. that's half of one team. there is a gun culture in the nfl, and it's a lethal mix because players, young players

with suddenly all this money, they are also taught to be very violent on the field and then somehow be a good citizen off it. they don't know how to do that. there isn't a single psychiatrist on one nfl team. there is only one and that's the dallas mavericks. there should be. there should be somebody with these guys on the road, at home, anonymously so they can come into their office, hotel room and talk about problems because whatever they are doing now is not enough. there should be -- if you're caught with a gun violation, you should get a two-year ban from the league. they -- >> and guys -- >> into the collective bargaining agreement -- >> rachel -- >> i mean, 234 a nightclub after 1:00 you're out for a year. >> i don't disagree -- >> rachel, what do you think about that? >> i don't disagree it might not be enough but i want to say respectfully there are psychologists on a lot of these

teams. the cowboys have one and a masters in psychology. so there are several teams that do employ psychologists. in fact, the nfl -- >> rachel -- >> a mandatory eight-session mental health and sort of off field issue sessions for rookies. though are getting some things. are they getting enough is the question and what are they doing to take advantage of it is the other question, too? >> it's naive. the league is naive. they won't go to the psychiatrist that reports to the owner and coach because he -- on the mavericks, he does not report to mark cuban. he's anonymous. it's like that ride program they have in the nfl. call us if you're drunk, except they will tell the coach and general manager immediately that you were drunk. they need to make it -- what they are doing now isn't working. they have to make it work for the players, so they don't think they will be ratted out as soon as they go for help because right now players don't like to use it. >> if you look -- >> rachel, rachel, let me ask you a question. here is a guy who just signed a

40 million dollar contract. >> yes. >> and yet he has the arrogance or whatever it may be to take out allegedly a friend of his to a random location and effectively execute him. what does that tell you about the mind set of these players? >> it tells me about the mind set of aaron hernandez if, in fact, this is true. we have to be careful of painting every player in the nfl with this broad brush. there is 1700 players. 27, 29 players arrested since the super bowl. that's less than 2%. if the look at the fbi statistics, arrests for people in the u.s., their arrest percentage is around 4, 4.5%. we're talking about a problem. these are role models for kids. we want to see them behave better and get help, as rick points out, some need more help from us and the nfl but it's not pretend every guy in the nfl is running around shooting people.

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no, i'm not going to be scrambling jets to get a 29-year-old hacker. i continue to be concerned about the other documents that he may have. that's part of the reason why we would like to have mr. snowden in custody. >> even in africa, president obama facing questions about the nsa leaker. as far as we know, edward snowden somewhere in the moscow airport. joining me now is the attorney general under george w. bush, who says snowden has done real damage. welcome back to the show. i want to start with a different story. there's a report tonight that the former second highest ranking officer in the u.s. military, marine general james cartwright, is now the target of a justice department investigation into an alleged

leak of classified information about a covert u.s. cyber attack on iran's nuclear program. what is your reaction to this? >> my reaction is regret, number one. general cartwright is a very capable soldier and a terrific -- made terrific contributions to the intelligence capability of this country. if he is, in fact, the source of the information, it's hard for me to believe it was done without approval. >> approval from whom, would you surmise? >> the white house is a very small place. >> so your suggestion, obviously well informed suggestion, is that the white house would have directed him to do this? >> it's not well informed. look, his lawyer is a former white house counsel.

the nature of the information that was released was such that somebody of his stature i don't think would have released it without a wink and nod from somebody in authority. >> and that would be from the white house? >> yes. that's my initial reaction. >> right. extraordinary devepment. we'll see what happens. >> it will be interesting to know who leaked the story about the investigation. >> let's go to snowden. the guardian newspaper in britain reported you were the attorney general of george w. bush at the time you and defense secretary bob gates signed a document that okayed the mining of american e-mail in a program called stellar wind. first of all, is that true? >> i can't discuss that program, which as far as i know is still classified. i can tell you that in general, this has been reported, the united states has the -- the fisa court has directed various

providers to give the government data that they can use to construct a plan of how -- or to plot how it is that terrorists talk to one another, and they can consult that data when there's a reasonable showing that it's related to an investigation. >> do you believe overall from edward snowden story to date, do you believe that president obama and his administration have acted entirely properly? >> in what sense? >> i suppose first legally, and second, ethically. >> in collection of information? >> yeah. >> absolutely. >> all the stuff that snowden has revealed. >> absolutely. snowden is what is called within the trade of communicator, he simply sets up communications or did when he was working within

the system. he's the sort of guy who 30 years ago would have worn a tool belt to information. he obviously made off with information that he shouldn't have. but as far as collecting the information, i don't have a problem with that. >> michael, good to talk to you. thank you very much for joining me. >> good to be here. >> we'll be right back. cell heah plays a key role throughout our lives. one a day women's 50+ is a complete multivitamin designed for women's health concerns as we age. it has 7 antioxidants to support cell health. one a day 50+.

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