the only thing that's keeping you cool here is the actual ground. we're trained to dig a hole right by your mouth to try to breathe through the ground where it's cooler. there's two types of heat. the radiant heat about 95% of that is reflected. you can imagine how hot it is. you have gloves on your hand. once your hands burn you can't hold it down. >> why do you suppose they didn't survive? >> unfortunately, one of biggest things is suffocation. a lot of times you don't have enough oxygen, you can't hold your breath long enough. we're trained not to lift it up. if you lift it up you get the toxins and that can be fatal as well. : just past the top of the hour. the first witness is about to take the stand of the george zimmerman trial. our coverage starts now.

breaking right now, zimmerman's side of the story. >> i fell down. he pushed me down. somehow he got on top of me. >> this video about to be critical evidence in sanford courtroom. >> felt his arms going down to my side. i grabbed my firearm and i shot him. will the judge admit the video. >> prior to you shooting him, he was on top of you. >> sanford investigator who found that zimmerman acted in self-defense on the stand. you're live in the cnn newsroom. . >> this morning we'll bring you live testimony from the george zimmerman murder. among those that could take the stand is is homicide

investigator. in a recorded interview he was clearly skeptical of zimmerman's version of events. >> what happened this evening is you saw somebody who you in good faith knew was doing something wrong? >> yes. >> you ever heard of murphy's law. this person was not doing anything bad. you know the name of that person this died? >> trayvon. >> trayvon martin. >> he was born in 1995. he was 17 years old. an athlete, probably somewhere, somebody's gonna be, a kid with a future. a kid with folks that care. in his possession we found a can of ice tea and a bag of skittles and about $40 in cash. not the goon. >> detective serino wanted to charge zimmerman with

manslaughter. there was a bunch of controversy about that. we'll take you live to the courtroom. we have a team of reporters a andisand analysts breaking down the testimony. george howell is outside the courthouse. good morning. >> reporter: good morning. there was supposed to be hearing at 8:30 this morning to decide about the statements. we're talking about that video rea reenactment. we understand that attorneys have reached a decision about their concerns with that statement. still unclear whether this evidence will be part of the trial. if it is, this will be the first opportunity really to hear george zimmerman in his own words explain to the jury and explain to attorneys exactly what he did. >> all i could think about was when he was hitting my head, it felt like my head was going to explode. >> reporter: it's george

zimmerman? his own words walking investigators through the incident less than 24 hours after killing trayvon martin. it's this statement that could become critical new evidence in the case. if judge debra nelson allows it the jury could exam his demeanor. prosecutors are expected to call on more witnesses this week including the lead investigator from the sanford police department, chris serino and doris singleton who found that george zimmerman acted in self-defense. jurors ended the week on day 5 hearing from the only eyewitness to the struggle between zimmerman and martin. john good told police he saw two people on the ground. the person on top was wearing darker clothes and the man underneath seem to have a lighter complexion. >> you saw the person on top in

an mma straddle position, correct? >> correct. >> reporter: good' testimony is important because it contradicts key witnesses. she heard yelling, stepped out of her home and saw a man who appear to be george zimmerman on top. >> the person on top did not respond to the first two times that you called to him, correct? >> correct. >> the third time he said just call the police? >> correct. >> reporter: another important witness for prosecutors rachel jenteal who was on the phone. through more than hours she maintained it was george zimmerman who was the aggressor. >> i thought you said it could have been, for all you know, trayvon martin smashing george zimmerman in the face is what you heard? >> what? >> just earlier today. >> by who?

>> by you. >> you didn't get that from me. >> reporter: week 2 picks up. live pictures here. you see the attorneys having a hearing there in front of the judge. we expect to have audio soon. we do expect that we could hear from several important witnesses. obviously chris serino and do s doris, the two lead detectives who decided he acted in self-defense. we could also hear from a ballistics experts. prosecutors will make this point that the gun was loaded and ready to be fired and also from the medical examiner to explain the bullet wound to trayvon martin's chest and possibly the trajectory of that bullet which could give some information about that struggle that ensued before the fatal shot. >> all right. george howell reporting live from sanford. joining me now with some

perspective, sonny hostin is in sanford, florida and page pate and jason jackson. welcome to all of you. thanks for coming back. let's head back to sanford and check in with sonny about this video reenactment. prosecutors want that out. defense attorneys want it in. do you know what went down in court this morning in regards to that reenactment? >> i'm not so sure the prosecutors want to keep it out. we have limited information about what was going to happen this morning. there was supposed to be a mini hearing at about 8:30 this morning but the hearing was cancelled. the judge let everyone know that the lawyers had come to an agreement and there was no longer an issue about any of the video tape statements. i suspect that we will be hearing testimony and perhaps also seeing those video tape statements. we've all seen them but the jury

has not. >> the first witness is about to take the stand. this is a doctor. he's testified as a defense voice analyst expert for the fbi during a separate hearing. don't know exactly what he's going to testify about but we suspect we do. let's listen. >> my name is hirotak. last name is nakasone. currently i'm assigned to the operational technology division of the fbi. and performs variety of duties as a senior scientists. i conduct research and development activities for the development of speaker recognition systems.

i perform voice related examine nations and speak analysis and acoustic analysis and gunshot analysis. lastly, as a senior scientist i provide advice, guidance, recommendations for the operational technology divisions in other fbi field office. >> how long have you been in your current position? >> since 2009 as a senior scientist for four years and prior to that i was hired in the seminole position since 1996.

>> tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury essentially what it is you've done, how long you've been in this field and what makes you qualified to hold your current position. >> when i was doing my phd at michigan state university i got into this forensic speaker recognition as part of my thesis. when i graduate with the degree i taught at michigan state as assistant professor for 18 months or so. after that i moved to los angeles county sheriff department in los angeles, california to take up a federal research project for the development of computer assisted. i stayed at los angeles county

sheriff department for seven years since 1985 to 1992. my title with the sheriff department was voice specialist. consequently i joined fbi in august of 1992 for the same responsibilities type of work that i did. i think i was qualified by fbi to conduct forensic examinations on the audio evidence in 1994. ever since i've been doing this kind of work until today. >> doctor, have you -- you mentioned a phd thesis, have you done work independently of just

your work? >> yes. my first independent would be my own phd thesis. this was titled as a automatic speaker recognition by usie deviation spectrum. when i moved to los angeles the research grants was provided to continue my work as i wrote in the thesis under the project name computer identification system. when i joined the bureau, i started specific modernization effort of the fbi technique to do voice identification until 1997 since early part of 1960s, fbi was using voice comparison for voiceprints. it was getting to be very

ineffective to establish scientific validity because of the subjectivity in the examination involved. 1997 i was charged to look into modernize speaker recognition technology. after that i initiated a lot of research project to identify any existing technology. i published a variety of papers related to speaker recognition technologies. >> if you had to guess how many papers or articles you published, how many would that be? >> i really never counted but maybe 30 or 40. >> as far as your actual work in

lab for fbi and other agencies that you've described, how many actual voice samples do you have. >> i can give you a rough idea. judging from the fact that i handled, anywhere from education per year and if i worked for the bureau that would amount to 1400 cases but since i've been working for more than ten years or so my best guest would be handled and analyzed and written report. somewhere in the neighborhood of 3,000 cases. maybe five times of the number of voices. >> have you ever testified in courts before as an expert in the field of forensic speaker recognition? >> yes, i have. however, most of the time when i testify in the courtroom i never

testified to the results of the analysis and examination that i conducted. rather i was requested to testify in the court to talk about the reliability and the scientific foundation of speaker recognition technologies. >> how many times would that be? >> while the doctor goes through his background we'll take a quick break. we'll be back with much more. this is what matters. the experience of a product. how will it make someone feel? will it make life better? does it deserve to exist? we spend a lot of time on a few great things.

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we've not gotten to the meat of the doctor's testimony. he's an expert voice analysis. if you're confused as i am and jason johnson. we thought a voice analyst wasn't allowed to be part of the

trial. >> right. the frye hearings, we spent weeks. i don't know if this was a trick by the prosecution. i don't know why the defense didn't object. this should be very interesting. i wonder what he's going to talk about. >> let's talk to mr. defense attorney. >> the judge said you can't have an expert testify to that question of whose voice is it we heard making the scream. maybe there are other things about that tape an expert can shed light. what i thought was interesting is the defense said let's bring him up. they seem excited about this testimony. >> the defense testimony said i'm eager to hear what he has to say. >> so am i. >> let's go back to testimony now. >> to evaluate the suitability of the data and we check and listen very carefully and then want to make sure speech sample we have at hand naturally

spoken. it would be devoid of disguise attempt. any evidence of intoxication there must be removed from analysis and also we pay attention to emotional state of this speech. if the person is uttering voice samples with the extreme happiness, their voice would be too joyous including lots of giggling, those must be removed. sometimes we run into voice being uttered when the person is going through stress or undue depression. the voice must be also be removed and any other unnatural voicing say like yelling, screaming. this type of voice must be removed from the analysis and

the standard operating procedures and when the speech is determined to be natural we would check the other aspects of conditions. for example, the duration must be at least 30 seconds after blank was removed. usually we can do meaningful analysis if the voice sample is 30 seconds, one minute, maybe up to three minutes or so. after three minutes the performance hits the ceiling. when the speech sample drops down to 14 seconds the examiner has to conclude the voice is -- the duration is not good enough for analysis and then we will also check the amount of

vibration in the speech. if there's a long amount of vibration, we will not proceed. the suspect voice recorded in the quiet room. if the telephone line has a bad quality, these days most of the telephone, especially land line carries decent quality. it can be usable. depending on the cell phone that distorts human voice. when we have to confront this disparity the examiner is mandated to stay away from further analysis. >> you've talked about sort the

factors that affect your ability to conduct an analysis. i think you mentioned there's variations in what is going on with the speecher in terms of mental state or physical state or emotional state, the way the speech is expressed. you were just talking about sort of variables that could go on with the mechanism of the recording, the cell phone distortion and that sort of thing. are there other environmental facto factors, the distance between the recording and the mic microphone, are there other factors over and above with the speaker and microphone that could have an effect? >> yes. thank you for opening that up. the effects of the distance to the voice is also regarded as something would have to be careful.

there are two terms to describe those. the first one is far field recording versus near field recording. when we typically talk on the phone our lips are very close to the microphone, maybe an inch away. that's a typical near field recording. it captures our voice very clearly. on the other hand when the person is say far end of the room and there are say ten feet, 15 feet away, we call this voice when captured by recording system, we call it far-field recording or far-field voice. far-field voice is problem because not only weakened signal. it has a noise with it. mixed with noise and vibrations

and echoes created by bouncing walls. that sort of smears the voice. another thing is that far-field voice tends to have very poor signal to noise ratio. signal to noise ratio is the ratio of signal divided by noise signal. say like in the courtroom the signal level when we measure it by sound pressure meter it might give something like 40 dd decibels. i'm talking probably with the total of about 80 db loudness and the signal to noise ratio is

an expression. we just use subtraction. 80 minus 40 gives me the voice. my voice carries about a 40 db signal to noise ratio and that's what you hear. 20 is 100. it's more than. >> this is a voice analyst for the fbi. all of us is struggling to understand why he's testifying because we thought that any voice analysis that would be introduced in court would not be allowed. we're talking about those 911 tapes and whose voice was on the tapes. sonny, what do you make of this? >> i think i'm just as confused as all of you are. you're right. not only was the decision made that there would be no expert analysis in terms of whose voice

was crying on the tape. the judge found that type of science was unreliable and just hadn't been accepted but this particular witness testified for the defense at the fry hearing which is why i suspect they said we look forward to hearing them. they have no objection to his testimony. i'm not quite sure what he is going to testify to by the prosecution. let's remember that this prosecution team is really sort of a dream team. between the three of them, he's tried hundreds of murder cases. i suspect they know what they're doing. there's a reason why this witness is on the stand. i just don't know why. >> page, earlier you said you were surprised this was the first witness of the day because after last week which was

devastating, you'd think there would be this exciting witness on the stand so the jury could pay attention. >> or at least one that's strong for the prosecution. trials are a lot about momentum. i think friday ended strong for the defense. monday morning if you're the prosecution you want to catch them when they are away and interested and start rebuilding some credibility toward your theme. >> he's asking more questions. maybe they will get to the meat of the testimony soon. >> i don't know. maybe there's some huge twist ending to this and look like geniuses at the end of the day. >> let's listen. >> i'm going to concentrate on what i did. by following this standard operating procedure i listened to entire recording.

i got it over four minutes. i want to check my note. four minutes to 2:34. out of that 2:34 the portion was around 45 seconds. until there was a loud noise, almost like gunshot like audio event. that duration was about 45 seconds. we listen to the entire conversation exchange between the female caller and female 911 operator. when i was listening to those conversations i could hear the voices going in the background,

altercation. somebody yelling for help. that was screaming. screaming goes in and out when the dispatcher and the female caller were talking and sometimes the screaming comes up isolated from those. since we cannot really analyze any voice which is a step over by something else or super imposed with other people's voice. i discounted the area and it came up a little less than three seconds, 2.53 seconds of screaming was standing by itself. >> let me make sure i got this clear. there was in that 45-second portion there was a series that you described as the screaming noise.

how long total you call step on and unstepped on? >> total, if i combine all of those segments it reached a little less than 19 seconds. 18.80 seconds or so. of those, 16 seconds was overlapped by other voices and less than three seconds was the only area where not else but screaming was coming through. >> what were you able to -- >> we're going to continue to monitor this for you. we'll fill you in on what you me missed. we'll be right back. cause as you get older you start breaking down. i love my car. i want to take care of it. i have a bad wheel - i must say. my car is running quite well. keep your car healthy with the works.

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specifically if you can tell if the voice is an old voice or a young voice. let's listen. >> we know people make mistakes. when we hear someone say a young's voice coming through. 20 years old probably but it can turn out to be 55-year-old talking or sometime a judge. i think everybody may have gone through this before too. you may think this man is very old, maybe 30, 35 but he can turn out to be only 18 or 19. this also depends upon the

individual too. guessing age is aly l co little complicated. >> tell me what you know about the pitch of a voice as it relates to age, gender and st j stages of development. >> pitch is the psychological perception of actual vibration of vocal cords. when i'm talking in this courtroom probably my vocal cord is opening and closing approximately 100 times per second. 100 repetitions of the same thing per second is called 100 hertz. maybe 120. the average front pitch of the

adult male is somewhere around 120 hertz. on the other hand the average adult female voice has about 225 hertz per second. it's twice as high as men. on the other hand a small child produce somewhere around 400 hertz on the average. small children has highest pitch. this is based upon the speech samples while everybody is talking in a normal speech, carrying out conversation. this pitch goes all over the place when someone extreme conditions like roller coaster

ride or pilot's voice right before a crash to the ground or somebody that goes through extreme emotional status. the pitch is known to raise way higher into 500, 600, 700 hertz regardless of the age. normally we're accustomed to hearing a person's pitch but they say another phenomena when we speak pitch is the baseline, pitch is with energy but the reason what we hear distinctive sounds from me is not because of the pitch. it's created by patterns formed into a tube by human vocal tracts. that's from the lips all the way down to the top of the vocal cord.

it's somewhere around 15 to 17 centimeters. this tube is constantly changing and creates a resonance. that can be changed when the person uttering somebody under extreme emotional state. >> doctor, have you yourself made attempts and actually taking exemplars and been able to estimate the age or at least the general age of a speaker with prior samples? >> it occurred to me but i decided it was not possible to determine. >> on this one? >> on this particular case. >> but you've done that before? >> yes, i have analyzed variety of voices in the past. >> sometimes you're able and did i understand, sometimes you're

not? >> that is true. i have analyzed voice coming from 16-year-old young men against 20-year-old men on a case. we were able to identify the voice and in other cases more often than not we not recommend to police department or field office, do not try to get voice samples from younger boy who are going through potential voice change. this puts a very special uniqueness in situation because depending upon individuals, one person goes through and complete his voice change in rather short period of time. he may start at 12. he may complete his voice change within a year.

some individuals may go through extended period of time before his voice finally gets established. >> that could take as late as how in life? >> i can't really call exact a year but usually -- >> we're still trying to figure out the relevancy of this testimony. we're going to take break. we'll be back with much more. i missed a payment. aw, shoot. shoot! this is bad. no! we're good! this is your first time missing a payment. and you've got the it card, so we won't hike up your apr for paying late. that's great! it is great! thank you. at discover, we treat you like you'd treat you. get the it card with late payment forgiveness.

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all right. we're continuing to listen to testimony from an fbi voice analyst. he's talking about the voices on the 911 call. he's saying no way to tell whose voice that was which is what we already knew. two attorneys on my panel today. they're confused about this. jason johnson who is a court observer much like i am. if you're sitting on the jury you're thinking what's the point. >> they might be nodding off

like george zimmerman on day one. it seems like really long build up. i don't understand what they're point is. i think people will listen to the tape and jurors will decide what they hear. >> what are they trying to do? he's now talking about how you can't tell whether it's a young person's voice on the tape or an adult and then the prosecuting attorney kind of turned it to like voices you hear in real life not on tape and can you tell if those persons are young or old. >> we all know you have to call fact witnesses even if they don't support your theory. if you don't do it, the defense will. it's not true with experts. it seems like he's undercutting one of the prosecution witnesses who seem to suggest it was the younger person who gave the scream. i have no reason why he's doing this especially at this point in

the case. >> sunny, you've been listening to this testimony about 20 or 30 minutes. can you make sense of it yet? >> i think we also need to take a step back. we all know about the fry hearing. we all know this information. the jury doesn't. the jury is listening to this with fresh ears and watching this witness with fresh eyes. that's the first point. the second point is we know that this witness is talking about voices, talking about older voices versus younger voices and we also have been told that perhaps someone from trayvon martin's family may get on the witness stand and identify the voice as that of trayvon, the voice that was yelling for help. this kind of testimony coming from an expert could support that kind of testimony. i don't think it's so out there that this person is getting on the witness stand, an expert, having been with the fbi for so

many years giving that context. yes, sometimes you can identify the difference between a younger sounding voice and older voice. he has done it before. it's making a little more sense. it's becoming much clearer. i suspect that's where it's going. >> also he also testified when a grown man is afraid, he sounds like a younger person. >> that's right. he says that pitch sometimes gets much higher when under stress but again, if trayvon martin was already young, his voice hadn't been established yet, if he's under stress then you're listening to a higher pitch and you have other witnesses that are saying, rachel said he had a baby voice. some of the witnesses said i thought it was a younger sounding voice and if the state puts on someone from the family that says i know that's my son or i know that's my nephew, that

could carry a lot of weight. i think i know where this witness is going. >> until the defense puts george zimmerman's family and say i know that's george zimmerman's voice. interesting stuff. >> exactly. >> we'll continue to monitor this for you. we'll be right back. we raise black and red angus cattle. we also produce natural gas. that's how we make our living and that's how we can pass the land and water back to future generations. people should make up their own mind what's best for them. all i can say is it has worked well for us. could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. yep, everybody knows that. well, did you know some owls aren't that wise? don't forget i'm having brunch with meghan tomorrow.

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there was a last question from the prosecuting attorney. he says the people who can best identify voices are people who know the person intimately and doctor agreed with that. might be logical but could be important. the doctor is about to be cross examined by the defense. let's listen. >> this is defendant's exhibit

ff for identification. >> yes. >> are you failure with that? >> yes, this is my curriculum vitae. >> in addition to the training and experience that you talked about a moment ago, does this contain references to your publications and research and other life experience as a voice expert? >> yes. this lists my professional affiliation. i have about half a dozen of memberships in the neck any cal associations. also this list award that i received in the past including

fbi director's award for the development of automated speaker recognition system and it also lists my current effort in establishing a scientific working group for formed and launched and kicked off on march 19 of this year and there are somewhere around 30 to 40 members among those 66 members from, they are voting members and the remaining advisory members and both of those memberships are made up of highly reputable scientists both in forensic and in technical

field mostly coming from federal, state,ing a damian and major industry who produces speaker technology. >> let's talk about that just for a moment. that's the working group mentioned that you are focusing on now is a group of scientists through voice identification, voice comparison experts that have pulled together to meet regularly in the issue of speech ore speaker identification? >> that is correct. >> how was the group started and what is its primary mission? >> the concept of this working group was born in 2009 when the

entire agency symposium was held and we recognized that there are lack of, you know, consensus or integrated or coordinating efforts in establishing a common standard operating procedures and it took about three or four years. >> because dr. nakasone is again going through his credentials, we'll take a break and be back with more in the newsroom.

. >> all right, somewhat unbelievably, that fbi analyst dr. nakasone is going through his credentials on cross. according to an orlando sentinel reporter inside the courtroom, jurors are oning now. they are borbored with his testimony they don't get where he is going. sonny is out there in sanford, jason johnson, the court observer, sonny, you have kind of found some reason to go through all of this so tell us more. what's the point of this? >>. >> reporter: well, i think i found the reason.

based on what he said during his testimony which was the last piece, familiarity voice recognition is reliable. familiarity someone could have with another person, a fema person experience stress, experience happiness, experience sadness, so my view in this is that this witness is the setup to queue up one of the trayvon martin family members to get on the witness stand and say, i knew trayvon my entire life or his entire life. i've seen him happy. i've seen him s.a.t. sad. i heard him under stress, that was his voice. when you have an expert witness say the best identification is won familiar with someone ooels else's voice, that's significant. >> let's go to page, then i have to take a break, page, a smart move in the end or? the jurors are oning?

right. >> sonny is right. you have to set up your witnesses later in the case the cross examination of this witness to me seems very odd t. jury knows this person is qualified, make your point. >> i guess the family member will say it's trayvon martin's voice on the tape. they can say, yeah, it's unreliab unreliable. >> we were all saying you would recognize their voice than some expert is going to. >> i got to take a break. we'll be back with more after this.

. >> good morning, i'm carol costello, sthaumpg so much for joining us. welcome to the newsroom. we're covering the george zimmerman murder trial. you are about to hear live testimony from dr. nakasone, an fbi voice analyst him he testified there is no way he can determine whose tape was screaming on that 911 call. he couldn't tell whether it was a younger man or an older man. he said the best way is to come from the person or person, they would best know the voice on tape. dr. nakasone is being

cross-examined by don west, george zimmerman's defense attorney who is talking more of the analysis of these kind of tapes, what it means, what it can demplt let's listen. >> technology is in 69 tick studies. >> if i heard you earlier yekt correctly, there is no methodology or science that can reliably evaluate screams as the speaker identification at this time? >> that is correct. >> the niche has not addressed the extreme voice samples like that. >> the work, group that you talked about include, you said, academics, are you talking college professors and researchers that don't necessarily run a laboratory? >> yes, in addition to those, we

also have representatives from forensic community inings say l we had a presentation from the dojsh that's fbi. >> doj? >> yes. >> the do justice? >> that's correct. we also have representation from u.s. secret service. we have representation from intelligence communities i'm not allowed to spell out the names. >> another acronym? >> multiple agencies are sending representation for this group indeed, you are here, are you not, with special representation of the legal council? >> yes, sir, assistant council allow me to testify for this

particular case. >> and as a result, in fact, the scope of your testimony is somewhat limited, if we were for the cc you questions outside the scope of this case? >> that is correct. >> is your fbi lab a forensic lab? >> yes. >> and i want to have you just address that for a moment. the jury may not know what forensic means in the context of the work that you do. by forensic, i'll summarize it or you correct me or that it's when a focus towards evaluating evidence for possible use in a courtroom setting? >> the other narrow definition and broad definition of the working forensics, what you just

defined is narrow definition of the forensics. usually, other people thinks that any existence should be able to be produced as evidence in the courtroom. however, there is another interpretation which is the broad definition of forensics simply mooin means the analysis that is being conducted for the of investigative guidance or terrorist investigations. >> so, in other words, if -- >> we will jump away from this cross and talk about it. as i mentioned in the last hour, some of the jurors are getting tired of this testimony several why oning. jason, you are my court observer, some are saying they don't get it. >> it makes no sense.

the defense isn't using it. the guy is droning on and on about his res may, it's a staff group. i'm in this group, none of that means to the jurors who will trying to decide, look, can you say anything about this voice, can we use that to determine if zimmerman is guilty. >> it's boiled down to, no, no can't expertly testify to whose voice was on that 911 call. if a family member got on that stand, mai-mai be better to tell who was screaming on that page, right, page? >> right. that's basically a one question cross examination s. that your opinion? yes, sir, no, sir, sit down. i really don't see from the defense standpoint the purpose of drag out his credentials over and over again unless you use this witness to support something later in your case once you get a chance to call witnesses. >> sonny, that in your mind, too? >> it seems with me with

attorney don west. he doesn't have the best sense, when you are in the courtroom, it's almost you are so in the weeds, are you in a volume. are you so in the zone that sometimes you don't keep your hand on the court and it just seems to me given the fact that he gave almost a three-hour opening statement it was rambling started with that knock knock joke around the world. he cross-examined rachel jeantel in a way that many find him offensive. now we have him keeping a witness on the stand a bit too long. sometimes as a trial attorney, are you so in the zone, you lose your sense of the courtroom. i'm sure page may or may fought have had that experience. i had it early in my career i 10 to 15 think that's what's happening. >> we were all expecting the

prosecution would put on one of the more exciting witnesses, detecti detective serino. you were surprised that witness wasn't put on the stand first. >> i was surprised trials are about momentum. you got the jury's attention, they're awake you start out with something this dry, you will lose them the rest of the day perhaps. >> while that testimony goes on, of course, we'll continue to monitor the witness in the vermillion trial. there is another tragic death of 19 elite firefighters in the arizona mountains, an out of control wildfire killed the entire crew last night. they were battling the yarnel

hill fire. this group was responsible for digging a fire break when fire simply overtook them. that fire has burned more than 6,000 acres, destroyed 100 structures and this tragedy decimated the fire department by 20%. >> families are in terrible shoblg. fire departments are like families. so the entire fire department, the entire area the state is devastated by the magnitude of this incident. >> cnn has more for you. >> the . >> /* the yarnell fire trapped 19 firefighters with no way out. >> we are devastated. we lost 19 of the finest people you will ever meet. right now, war in crisis. >> the fire department hot shot

crew, getting their name because they work in the had hoddest parts of the wildfires. they are setting up barriers to stop their destructive spread. >> these guys go out and they are quality people. >> reporter: the crew was trafficked with digging a fire line. the names haven't touched press scott. the team jumped in to help fight the blaze the fire burned 6,000 acres and 100 structures have been destroyed forced to evacuate, some only had minutes to grab their longings. others witnessed their things burn as they fled the scene. >> i went to get the wife because the fire was getting close sand i woke her up and got the evacuation noichlt we got the dogs, by the time we got the

dogs, we got the wife and it was gone. >> officials believe lightning may have sparked the fire. the area has been experiencing severe drought conditions. >> we are going to continue to monitor the george zimmerman murder trial. we'll be back with more after th this.

>>. >> all right. why don't you take us back live to sanford, florida, a voice analyst for the fbi continues his testimony. it's been going on for over an hour now. now the attorneys are starting this spat over the witness in a line of questioning the defense

attorney can ask. what's that about? >> you know, i didn't hear the first part of your question, i have been watching the trial during the breaks, it's interesting because the defense i think wants to use this witness as their own witness, so he's been trying to get a feel for what the direct examination is i can't tell where he wants to go. he certainly wants to go in a different direction the judge said, no, you can't get there yet. he would have to call this witness back in the defense case, perhaps the defense won't put on a case that would force them to put on a case, now they're at sidebar arguing about that very issue. >> yeah it's interesting. we are all stumped to what this witness can say beyond the fact that you can't tell through

skieven tick means whose voice it was on those 911 tapes. >> clearly, these attorneys have met with them before. this witness was a defense hearing. suffice it to say they have met with him a couple times, there is something he has given them that they want injected into this trial. will they be able to go there on the state's dime in the state's case? i'm not so sure about that. that's why i think you heard don west say let me treat him as my witness? of course, the government always objects to. that you say, sorry, this is my attorney, will you have your turn if you choose to do it. >> we were all expecting two homicide detectives to take the stand one detective serino initially questioned george vermillion after the event

happened his inclination was to bring manslaughter charges. do we have that tape available? we'll have it soon now, as soon as we get it, we'll let you listen. let's talk about that. there is some controversy. he since has been demoted. nobody can figure out why, jason. >> well, you know, there are so many political machinations going on. so a lot of other people got sovd. so i think he's a police officer. anyone who was a member of the law will be somebody this jury will listen to. >> i will play the initial interrogation between the detective and george vermillion he was questioned about the events of that night. let's listen to a piece of that interrogation. >> what happened is that you essentially saw somebody who you were in good faith over doing

something wrong? >> okay. this person, here's what happened, you know the name of the person that died? >> trayvon martin. >> trayvon benjamin martin. he was born february 5th. he was 17-years-old, an athlete, probably somewhere, somebody's gonna be in aeroknottic, a kid with a future, a kid with folks that care. in his possession, we found a can of iced tea and a back of skittles and about $40 in cash. not the goon. >> okay. so after this interrogation as i said, they decided george zimmerman probably should be charged with man slaurkts page brought up an interesting thing, page you said it doesn't much matter who was on top or on bottom. what does matter? >> well, at the end of the day

the judge will instruct the jury on the law of self-defense, what is important is the george zimmerman had to be acting lawfully at the time he used lawful or deadly force against trayvon martin. if he initiated the fight, if he's in there throwing punches, just because trayvon throws a few and may be winning does not give him the right to shoot him. zimmerman if he's initiating the fight, grappling with him, he's not acting lawfully at the time. >> is it enough that george zimmerman may have been following trayvon martin? is that enough to be the aggressor? >> i don't think so. we heard vermillion was asked, you don't need to do that. i think he had a lawful purpose for being there at the time. once you start throwing blows and start a physical alter indication, then it's a physical assault and battery. >> how can you possibly figure out who threw the first punch?

>> that's where racheljeantel comes in, she hears the phone drop. zimmerman had a gun in the chamber. he got out of the car with the gun ready to shoot. he didn't have the safety on. they build that. he gets out of the car. he has a bullet in the chamber. jeantel says i think trayvon was hit. they will have to string that altogether. >> also, maybe introduced later today, when you don't really know is this reenactment video. they brought him to the scene of the incident george zimmerman was animated. do we have the sound from that? >> i passed here. i didn't see anything, i was walking back to my truck. i got to right about here, he yelled from behind me to the side of me, he said, yo, you got a problem? i turned around, i said, no, i don't have a problem, man.

>> where was he at? >> he was about there, but he was walking towards me. >> in this direction here? >> yes, sir. like i sermsd i was already passed that, so i didn't see exactly where he came from. he was about where you you were. i said, i don't have a problem. i went to go grab my cell phone. i left it in a different pocket. i looked down and he said, you got a problem now. then he was here. he punched me in the face. >> you see that big band-aid on the back of george zimmerman's head, i want to ask you this question, detective serino said he didn't think he was particularly afraid of trayvon martin that night. >> yeah, that's really important. i think spaj right in the sense that what this case is going to boil down to is whether or not george zimmerman was the initial aggressor. in determining that, what the jury needs to look at, what is

provocation, how do you instigate? is following, approaching, coming fronting enough? i think it is, if you lock at florida case law and self-defense law, i think you use your common sense, which the jury will be asked to do once they get back into the jury room. that will be enough. then the analysis will change, it becomes if you start the fight, if are you the initial aggressor, then you have to be in fear of imminent bodily harm. you have to exhaust all imminent fear. i think what you have to think about it in a common sense way. all of this is legalese, lawyer speak. when you are a kid, when your parents come in, what do you say? he started it.

she started it. that's what the common law is about. it's about who started it. when you start a fight and are you losing, you then can't pull out a gun and kill someone, unless the tables have really, really turned. that's why i think detective serino or that tape may be important to the the prosecution. because it comes down to that important issue. who started it? did he start it or trayvon martin start it? >> we will take another break. so stick around. we'll be right back with more from sanford. .

. >> we're going to take you live back to the courtroom in sanford, florida, where defense attorney don west is now questioning this witness, dr. nakasone. something has just been introduced into evidence. i'm not sure what it is. let's listen and determine. >> there is a consensus to certain kind of voice samples that are suitable for forensic analysis. >> that is correct. >> so your decision in this case wasn't based solely on your personal view about what samples are reliable or suitable and which ones aren't? >> i strongly belief my opinion is supported by my colleagues in the scientific communities. >> let's talk about, first of all, the suit ability of the

samples in this case which boils down to the screaming the cries for help on that reporting. when you evaluated it, i know from what he said you took the total amount of the speech and you said that was about 18 seconds give or take. >> that is correct. >> out of the 45 second period from when the screaming started to the apparent gunshot? >> that is correct. >> so you distilled that to 18 seconds. >> then when you removed the masking noise or overland speech, you had considerably less to work with. fact, it was under three seconds. >> that is corrected 20.53 seconds. >> and are you saying it was

only 2.35 seconds that could to in anyway be considered suitable? i don't mean suitable that it was suitable, but that's what you had to start with to make that decision? >> yes, that was cleanest area that we attempt to do any kind of analysis, not just for scientific but any kind of analysis. >> when you would say you like 30 minutes or up to 3 minutes of speech for analysis, are you talking about normal speech ore screaming speech? >> normal, natural conversational speech. >> why is that? what's this notion of phonetically balanced speech? >> the computer takes statistics of dynamic variation of somewhere around 1,000 different

speech features. >> and he is continuing to ask dr. nakasone of the quality of the 911 tapes. basically what the defense attorney is trying to get at even if you know the person intimately the tape quality is so poor, it might be impossible to determine whose voice is on the tape, earlier, it might be to identify it by someone who is familiar with that person. testimony will continue along those lines after we come back. . (guy) i wannna catch a falcon! (girl) we should do that. (guy) i caught a falcon. (guy) you could eat a bug. let's do that. (guy) you know you're eating a bug. (girl) because of the legs. (guy vo) we got a subaru to take us new places. (girl) yeah, it's a hot spring. (guy) we should do that. (guy vo) it did. (man) how's that feel? (guy) fine.

(girl) we shouldn't have done that. (guy) no. (announcer) love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. vietnam in 1972. [ all ] fort benning, georgia in 1999. [ male announcer ] usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve military members, veterans, and their families is without equal. begin your legacy, get an auto insurance quote. usaa. we know what it means to serve. britta olsen is my patient. i spend long hours with her checking her heart rate, administering her medication, and just making her comfortable. one night britta told me about a tradition in denmark, "when a person dies," she said, "someone must open the window so the soul can depart." i smiled and squeezed her hand. "not tonight, britta. not tonight."

[ female announcer ] to nurses everywhere, thank you, from johnson & johnson. . >> all right. welcome back to newsroom. dr. nakasone still on the stand,

questioned by the defense attorneys, lets cut out so sanford, florida and sonny you bring our viewers up to date. >> i can tell you what is going on now and where don west seems to be going. he's going into listener bias. and the reason he is doing that again i think this witness is queing up someone from trayvon martin's family that will come on to the witness stand and say i am familiar with it voice. within i listen for the that 911 call, i hear his voice so notice doj west says isn't it true there are listener bias, you are listening to something. you may be familiar with that person the here is stress of listening to what would be your family member being killed on tape may skew your perception of

the voice. is where he is trying to go think about how crucial it will be if this witness has testified, yes, familiar voice recognition is reline. you get someone on the witness stand that says i am familiar with trayvon martin's voice that would be very important for the state w. rehearing the defense challenge that premise. >> we continue to be surprised this voice analyst was put on in the first place, we thought to keep voice analysis out of the mix, out of the trial now suddenly this witness is testifying an hour-and-a-half. >> he is not saying i believe it was zimmerman or trayvon martin. he is talking about the mechanics of it. how it is difficult to mike make that determination after the fact. bias affected eyewitness

testimony and audio visual things like that. because it's all in what the person per southeast and that person's background. >> will that be tough? what about trayvon martin's mother takes the stand and she says that's my baby. >> eboth sets of parents will say that's my kid. the witnesses we have so far. they didn't know either person. the majority, three out four we have talked to said they thought it was trayvon martin. so again, i don't see how this is hecheful. they think they heard the young man. >> we will continue to monitor this testimony. we want to talk about something else, it's important. former president bush is in zambia. he and the former first lady are there to set up a chancer clinic. they cover a variety of topics

that president bush himself launched. >> do you think he's a traitor? >> i know he damaged the country and the obama administration will deal with it. >> do you think it's possible for one man to really damage the security of the nation? >> i think he damaged the security of the country. >> when it comes to under surveillance, there can be real time understanding of what you are googling? >> i put the program in to protect the country. one of the certain tis is civil liberties were guaranteed. >> so you don't think there was a compromised between security? >> i think there needs to be a balance. >> you don't want to criticize the obama administration, that something you made a decision? >> i don't think it does any good. it's a hard job. he has plenty on his agenda. it's difficult. a former president doesn't need to make it harder. >> in the polls. >> i could care less. >> you don't care?

>> no. >> whether the people think you are favorable or unfavorable? >> the only time i cared was on election day. >> you know, i guess it's nice. let me rephrase it, thank you for bringing it up. >> you like the idea that people, perhaps, are looking at you differently? >> you know, ultimately history will judge the decisions i mand i won't be around because it's going to take a while for the objective historians to show up. so i'm pretty comfortable with it. i did what i did. i know the spirit in which i did it. >> george w. bush in africa, to do a little charity work. you can see more with the former president and first lady with wolf blitzer. of course, we are continuing to watch the george zimmerman murder trial. we are back in a minute.

. >> dr. nakasone the fbi analyst still on the stand questioned by defense attorney don west. he is getting into telling don west that it's virtually impossible for scientists to figure out whose voice it was on that 911 tape for various reasons. he testified to the fact that even if a person very familiar with the person, if that person heard a loved one's voice on

that 911 call, it doesn't necessarily mean they will be able to identify that voice with 100% certainty. after five days filled with headline making witness, colorful language and photos the zimmerman trial is starting to take an emotional toel toll. >> reporter: one week of graphic and at times disturbing testimony at both sides are showing sign of strain. trayvon martin's parents removed to tears on the first day, listening to opening statements. the very next day, they had to walk out when the court saw pictures of their son's lifeless body. it was particularly hard on martin's father. >> i thought they would give us advanced notice the state would be using some very sensitive pictures for that to come up on the screen very live really, really brought back a memory he had to walk out on. >> reporter: for trayvon's mother, the most difficult moment was the sound heard in

the background of a 911 call. >> all right. what is your -- >> gunshots. >> the gunshot signaling the end of her son's life. >> his mother doesn't like the gunshot t. gunshot, her hearing that and hearing about higgs final moments is tough forher. >> what impact the testimony is having on george zimmerman himself is harder to read. for the most part, he sits quietly, often gazing forward. in may, i spoke to mark o'mara about his client's 120 weight gain what that might suggest about his emotional state. >> are you worried he might hurt himself? >> no. >> he seems to be slowly doing himself harm by gaining all the weight. could he possibly do something severe? >> clearly, i'm not a skolg psychology, could he? i guess it's always itself possible. i lived with this case a year. i've lost the weight, so could i harm myself?

no, i'm not get going to harm myself. i think george is stressed out. i don't think he is going to harm. . >> i think he is extreme. >> i am concerned this case caused him to gain 120 or 30 pounds. is physically distracted. >> he's very sfresd out. he is. for a year-and-a-half he has been in hiding. now he's facing a potential life sentence, literally fighting for his life today as he was in february of 2012. it's very stressful an frighten i ing. >> around the trial goes on. george zimmerman sitting in court seemingly impassive. i want to talk to page, you are a defense attorney, how do you counsel defendants to look in court? >> it's very difficult. a lot depends on the clean. you want them interested.

you don't want them to react negatively, you know, through experience the jury is watching them very carefully. they're listening to the evidence and the testimony, but they want to see how this person responds, it's tough. your life is played out in front of you. you can't stand up and say anything during the entire trial. >> you can't show anger, frus strax, at times, it appears he fell asleep. although, we don't know that for sure, during this testimony, it's hard not to. >> what we try to do is if give them a pad of paper, notes, something you want to discuss with me later. write it down. he gives them something to do. >> all right. we will take brick break. we'll be back with more. s needs more cases. [ male announcer ] where do you want to take your business? i need help selling art. [ male announcer ] from broadband to web hosting

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he is redirect from the prosecution. we will continues to monitor this. we want to check our other stories. tragedy his the press scott arizona fire department. an entire firefighting crew was killed battling a wildfire from phoenix to flagstaff. it's the deadliest for firefighters since the 9-11 attacks. the wildfire burned 6,000 acres and destroyed 100 structures. also, president obama issued a statement saying they were heros, highly skilled professionals who like so many across our country do every day selflessly put themselves in harm's way to protect the lives and properties of the people they would meet. edward snowden may be spilling secrets. in the latest snowden fallout they are furious over the

offices they spied on. in the meantime, michael haydenned to face the nation he didn't know whether that report was actually true. starting today, state lawmakers approved the bill in may other countries allow same-sex marriages. 400,000way area workers with bart, the city's public transit system have gone on strike in egypt protesters are demanding president morissey leave by tomorrow or they will march on his palace at least 1,600 were killed in clashes since sunday. president obama is showing off dance moves with crowds welcoming him in tanzania this morning.

his last week stop. today he will top off with the president and visit a power plant one day after pledging $7 billion to combat blackouts in subsaharan africa. >> we will head to florida and you are hearing the voice analyst, let's listen. >> this concept of potential bias, you were talking in conject of having a scientist conduct what you call an unfamiliar voice or analyst where you don't know the supposed speak ear's voice before, right? >> yes. >> and, however, though, that happens in the voice lineup situation where you recommend to

fbi acts. >> sorry, i didn't mean to interrupt you. >> please avoid your comments. >> yes, judge. >> go ahead, doctor, you may continue. >> i said the, you know, the effort to guide them to remove bias happens not only to the technical analysis for unfamiliar voices but also it is equally important, the same you know safe guard against bias would be as important in the familiar voice recognition as well to remove risk of bias, and also to improve the credibility of the results of this you know identification precision. >> if i heard you about voice

lineups, you are talking of a situation where possibly a victim of a crime is asked to come down and lessen to potential suspects say what the perpetrator said? >> is that what you are talking about the voice lineup? >> yeah, that would be a part of that. sometime it happens there is not enough qualm in the voice recordings happening in the federal cases and recommend only thing they can do, to be to find somebody familiar with the voices an ad advise them if they have say, three or four potential individuals advise them to have each listen to the record voice over the time of the individual separately one at a time. it's a part of my

recommendation. >> okay. if we're talking about the potential for bias, that is exactly whats, potential? >> yes. >> if i were to have you and another person familiar with your mother's voice, listen to it together, are you about to compromise your ability to recognize someone with whose voois voice you are so familiar? >> well, there is always a cans i might get compromised. >> when you say there is a chance. >> yes. >> it certainly doesn't mean it will happen, does it? >> objection. leadi leading. >> if two voice at hand we have to compare are so obviously different, so obviously different or so obviously the

same the chance of company bias might be lesser tan the situation in which two voice sound alike or very difficult to an lies and i think they have a tendency to sort of follow the leader and that happens and it's the bias issue is a very serious, you know topic embedded within the 69 ticket working group for the speaker recognition as well. it's a very serious issue. >> does bias work both ways? by that, i mean, if you go into it not wanting or assume tag you are fought hearing the same voice? >> it can go either way. >> as far as familiar voice

identification goes, understanding the frailties of this particular tape, understanding what you've said is the more scenetistic computer assists mathd that doesn't provides here, do i understand yourful? >> that is correct. because there is no way for the computer to contain all sorts of in the futures coming from the voice. it's analyzing. this is just a one shot analysis. >> so if you've only got that one shot, the best person to do it is someone who has heard that voice under similar circumstances? >> that is correct. >> very briefly. at the fbi lab, you don't limit your analysis just to the

computer the automated speaker recognition, is that correct? >> that is correct. our approach is called in a hybrid approach. it's a method of ultimate speaker recognition by computer supervised by a trained reexaminer and this means the numbers by the computer alone cannot be utilized as a source of a report. the examiner will be conduct his examination independently from computers because human can extrablt some futures that the computers cannot and vice-versa, so ault always those two

components more than together ultimately speaker recognition with human in the loop. that's another term. >> you always have a trained examiner listening? >> that is correct. >> your examiners are trained in the various methodologist available for speaker recognition? >> that is correct. the computer cannot really assess whether, you know, inputting voices produce inference or computer cannot tell whether a person was happy, sad or voice was you know produced under, you know, normal duress. so to detect all of those, we have to depend up on the trained examiners. >> all right. we will step away and sort of like a at least conclude my show with a synopsis of what

happened, still on the stand. she's gone away from me. page, what this testimony boils down to is a person familiar with a loved ones voice, is able to identify voice on a tape. >> that's right. that's pretty much common sense. i don't know we needed an expert to tell the jury that. the one point the it was was able to make with this witness is that if you know the person whose voice it is, you may have some bias, yeah, it sounds like him, be positive it is him. it's mostly up to the person that kno the guy. >> you would think the defense has their witness. they will put a family member on the stand who will say that's my husband's voice streemg on that tape. >> there was a claim that it was far fetched.

i don't see why you need to tell me water is wet. >> i think she made a good point. don west likes to be very, very thorough. >> he does, obviously. this is not as bad as the knock knock joke. i think he's borboring the jury. i think he needs to make his point. otherwise the jury will miss that. if you have one good point and a witness up for two hours the jury may not have heard that point. hit it, hit it hard, move on. >> the next logical witness will be some member of trayvon martin's family? >> they can say, i remember when he was excited after a game or this so forth of environment. it helps who he is. >> we all heard of it a million times, the streaming stops immediately after the gunshot. as a defense attorney, what does that tell you, page? >> i think it will be difficult

for george zimmerman to say he was screaming and then shot trayvon martin. using common sense and jurors do that, that the person who was shot was the one that was screaming right up until they were shot? >> yeah, you think after you shoot someone, your adrenaline will be going like mad, you'd continue to scream something or say something. >> most delaware you just killed someone or shot someone, you would continue screaming, get this body off me, why would george zimmerman stop shooting as opposed to trayvon? >> will the prosecution get into that? >> they will certainly use that in closing argument. you can't really argue your case so much through the witnesses, you lay the foundation, you get out the points you hope to make and tie it all up in closing arguments. >> so again, we were all surprised. we thought one of the detectives would take the stand. he may during the morning. we just don't know.

it's more likely a family member will take the stand. we'll see. hopefully this witness has wrapped up on both sides, we don't know. thank you for joining me. i'm carol costello "newsroom" continues after a break.

. >> good morning, everyone, i'm ashleigh banfield live in sanford, florida. what a busy show we have ahead here. tragedy amid the arizona wildfire, a western heat wave that could be breaking records, okay, where i am live the george zimmerman second-degree murder trial continuing with evidence, people may not have expected they would hear. all of those stories coming your way, we are continuing our gavel to gavel coverage here. i want to beam you over to arizona right away, woo where an elite team of firefighters wer