that's all for us tonight. anderson cooper and cnn special, "self-defense or murder, the george zimmerman trial" starts right now. >> good evening. welcome once again to our "ac 360" special coverage, "self-defense or murder, the george zimmerman trial." self-defense or murder, how the jury sees these injuries could answer that question. as the prosecution tried to show today, are we looking at the kind of cuts and scrapes from a garden variety scuffle, one that did not have to end with a teenager did on the grass? that wasn't all, as the prosecution tries to struggle from a string of witnesses that at times appear to help the defense. we have our team of legal experts on board tonight.

along with a top foreencic scientist. but first, martin savidge sets the stage. >> reporter: prosecutors switched from using george zimmerman's friends against him to using his injuries. >> the injuries to the defendant's back of the head consistent with repeatedly being slammed into a concrete surface. >> no. >> reporter: a medical examiner testified that zimmerman's wounds were not life threatening. the key reason zimmerman is given for shooting trayvon martin. >> how would you classify the injuries to the defendant's head? >> they were not life threatening. they were very insignificant. they did not require any sutures to be applied to mr. zimmerman. so i would refer to them insignificant injuries. >> reporter: on cross-examination, the defense attorney mark o'mara implied valerie rao owed her job to the special prosecutor in the zimmerman case.

and then walked her back from some of her findings. >> it's your position that it's consistent that george zimmerman may have only received as little as three -- did you call -- what term did you -- smasher? >> sorry? >> slamming. three slammings into cement, correct? >> i didn't use the word slamming. >> i'm sorry, i thought that was your word. >> no, i got that from the re-enactment. >> what word would you use? >> impact. >> so it's your position there are at least three impacts between that head and cement? >> yes. concrete. >> reporter: earlier, zimmerman's best friend took the stand, it was mark osterman who first convinced zimmerman to buy a gun. he also housed george and shellie zimmerman for a time after the shooting and wrote a book about the case. >> you wrote a book where you quoted what the defendant, george zimmerman, told you, correct? >> correct. >> and you recall in that book writing, do you have a problem with that, that's what he said trayvon martin said? >> right.

correct. >> reporter: in that book, osterman said zimmerman tried to reach for the weapon on his hip, actually touching the gun. >> the defendant is claiming that the victim actually grabbed the gun, grabbed the -- >> that was my understanding, that he grabbed the gun. >> reporter: but a latent print technician found no trace of martin's prints but conceded rain or other factors could have washed prints away. >> so that fingerprints may have existed on an item that you have a list from a latent from and there be no latents whatsoever, correct? >> correct. >> even though it's been handled by two or three people? >> that's correct. >> reporter: osterman wrote that zimmerman jumped on the teen's back after the shooting and held down martin's hands, fearing mighten still might be a threat, but indicated the teen's hands

were found folded underneath his body. >> you recall the victim's hands being underneath his body? >> yes, sir. >> could someone say that was inconsistent? >> yes. that positioning. >> reporter: the day began with the jury being told to ignore a key moment of monday's testimony. that moment, when the defense attorney o'mara got the sanford police department's lead investigator to say he believed zimmerman told him the truth. martin savidge, cnn, florida. >> we're going to speak with mark o'mara later on in the program, as well as a attorney for trayvon martin's family. as always, we have the best legal team around and a forensic scientist here. lawrence koppel lynnsky joined me. and former federal prosecutor sunny hostin, jeffrey toobin. sunny was in the courtroom today.

danny cevallos and mark geragos are all here. we heard from the medical examiner, saying that zimmerman's wounds were not significant. do you agree? >> i don't. first of all, you can bet on the fact that the defense will have a medical examiner that will contradict everything that we heard today. yes, these wounds appear to be superficial. that does not mean that george zimmerman was not in fear for his life. and further more, although wounds can appear to be superficial, there can be a great deal of serious, underlying trauma. for example, subdural hematoma can result in death. >> so somebody can have their head slammed repeatedly on concrete and only have that little laceration in the back? >> yes. >> zimmerman said several times he was slammed repeatedly. on the crete. i want to listen to more of what the medical examiner said today.

>> dr. rao, using your definition of slamming, your common understanding of slamming, are the injuries to the back of the defendant's head consistent with having been repeatedly slammed into a concrete surface? >> no. >> why not? >> because the injuries are so minor that to me the word "slam" implies great force. and this -- the resulting injuries are not great force. >> what type and extent of injuries would you expect to see if the defendant's head had been repeatedly slammed into a concrete surface? >> so if somebody haesd ahead is repeatedly slammed against concrete with great force, i would expect lacerations, i would expect a lot of injury that would bleed profusely that would necessitate suturing. so i don't see that in this picture. >> mark, what do you make of her testimony? and does it matter as long as george zimmerman felt his life was in danger or he believed he

was going to black out as he said to law enforcement? >> look, at the risk of infuriating some of the psychos on twitter who follow "ac 360," this woman has probably never been in private practice. my guess is, she's never treated a live patient. i also probably bet that there's never been anybody that she's treated who was -- who needed her help. i think she, if anything, was a disaster for the prosecution. the idea that she thinks that three slams on the head against a concrete curb couldn't do damage to you, i just think it's laughable. i don't understand what she's talking about. i've had cases, i have defended within the last 24 months murder cases where my client was charged with hitting somebody who hit the concrete curb one

time and died and he was charged with murder. so i don't know what she's talking about. lawrence maybe can inform you. but to me, this was a no-brainer. this woman is abysmal. she's like the worst defense expert that you would get. and somehow, the prosecution thinks this is helpful? only in sunny's world would this be helpful. >> well, let me go to sunny. sunny, you think this was helpful for the prosecution? >> of course, it was helpful. i've got to tell you, i just don't know which trial mark, my friend, is watching. the prosecution wants to show that these injuries were insignificant and they certainly weren't life threatening. because in order for george zimmerman to have pulled out a gun and used deadly force. the standard is reasonable. was it reasonable for him to feel like he was in danger of death, imminent death, great bodily harm? there was no great bodily injury. >> sunny, can i ask you --

>> he didn't want to get mental health. come on. >> he didn't -- >> i just want to ask you one question. >> mark, go ahead. >> let me ask you one question, sunny. you're a prosecutor, you're sitting in your office and the police come in and they show you the pictures of george zimmerman's face and the back of his head, and you're the filing deputy. and they say, the police say we want to file assault with a deadly weapon with gross bodily injury. as a prosecutor, you're seriously with a straight face on national tv going to tell me you wouldn't file adw with great bodily injury based on these pictures? >> absolutely, because it's not just the pictures. it's his reaction. >> oh, my god, sunny sunny, then you're not -- >> okay, okay. >> once again, save this tape. >> jeff? >> i thought this was symbolic of a microcosm of the whole government's case which

was, you know, potentially incriminating, but potentially not. but her testimony was susceptible to an interpretation that he had essentially no injuries and was lying about the seriousness of them. it was also susceptible to the interpretation that he was actually in serious jeopardy and did have his head banged against the floor. >> and dr. kobelinsky was saying, they can bring in their own person who says these injuries through otherwise? >> right. when you are the prosecutor, you're supposed to put on evidence that is entirely incriminating, and as with so many witnesses in this case, this interpretation is susceptible to two interpretations, and that's not good for the prosecution. >> danny, where do you lie on this? >> can i just say one thing? >> mark is groaning here. >> i just -- i just don't understand something. >> come on, mark. >> i want to take dorothy rao's

head and let me bang it against the curb three times and tell her, oh, i'm sorry wow, like me to bang it a fourth or a fifth? give me a break! this woman is crazy. she's never had a live person as a patient. ever. >> this woman is crazy says the man who is screaming at the top of his lungs. go ahead. >> mark is right about one thing. i have to agree about what mark says about prosecutors. prosecutors would charge this as an aggravated assault. >> no way. >> sunny, look at the photographs. >> have you been a prosecutor, danny? >> i have not. it doesn't mean i haven't seen plenty of aggravated assaults. and the standard is serious bodily injury. i think that based on these injuries, it's clear, there are a lot of d.a.s that would charge this as serious bodily injury. with that in mind, we don't have to prove that zimmerman suffered serious bodily injury. only that he was in reasonable apprehension of serious bodily

injury. anderson, if i shoot a gun at you, and the bullet misses, you haven't suffered any injury. but were you in apprehension of serious bodily injury? absolutely. so, yes, it is compelling what his injuries were, but the standard is not his actual injury, it is the apprehension, the reasonable apprehension. >> there was also testimony, martin savidge played a little bit of it, of george zimmerman's best friend, who described what zimmerman told him about trayvon martin, claiming that trayvon martin grabs for his gun. i want to play a little bit of that testimony. >> as you stated, the defendant told you that the victim, trayvon martin, grabbed his gun, correct. >> yes, grabbed for his gun. >> he didn't -- >> the gun didn't come out. but he grabbed the gun in the holster. >> that's what i'm saying. >> yes, sir.

>> the defendant didn't tell you, mr. zimmerman didn't tell you, he grabbed for it, he said he actually got it? >> that's what i thought i heard, yes. >> if that is true, and trayvon martin grabbed for the gun, would there have been fingerprints on it, because they said they didn't find any? >> i don't think it's likely. guns are not good substrates for finger prints. generally, we don't get usable fingerprints. >> why is that? >> because the surface is not smooth. it's textured. usually fingerprints are smeared. she couldn't even find george zimmerman's prints. >> the public psyche -- it's interesting with fingerprints. fingerprinting is not a science, it is a technique. and it's fascinating how the public comes to accept it like science like dna. it's done by nonscientists and it itself is not a science. >> well -- >> well, you're not going to say it's a science. >> fingerprints are a very good form of identification. >> that -- wow, compared to dna?

they're never going to be -- they are a technique, they're not even a science, jeff. it is done by nonscientists and it is a nonscience. it a technique. >> i'm familiar with what -- i mean, the idea that fingerprints are somehow not good identification techniques, frankly, absurd. but the point is -- >> really? jeff, why don't you cite the case of the lawyer in oregon who was indicted as a terrorist based on the fbi's fingerprint analysis? >> yeah, mark. and you cite the tens of thousands of people who are in prison because of finger prints. >> only because they didn't have an expert. >> let me finish. what i'm trying to say is, absence of -- the famous phrase absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. if there's not fingerprints, it doesn't mean he didn't touch it. sometimes fingerprints just don't show up.

the fact that it's not on the gun is of very little significance. if they were on the gun, it would be of significance. >> well, i have a question. >> go ahead, mark. >> one question, was george zimmerman's fingerprints found on the gun? >> no, they found no usable fingerprints. >> oh, well, then that must mean that george zimmerman didn't fire the gun because there were no fingerprints. there you go, sunny. the case is not over, you're right. >> we're going to take a break. we've got a lot more to talk about, including the decision to bring a second degree murder charge and whether or not the jury is permitted to convict on lesser charges. also key testimony on whether the lead investigators in the case thinks that the zimmerman racially profiled trayvon martin. and we'll talk to defense attorney mark o'mara. and we'll talk to one of the martin family attorneys, and how she thinks the prosecution's

case is going. you might be surprised by her answer maybe not when we continue.

jasmine, how do you think the prosecutors have done who think they are having a tough time proving second degree murder at this point. >> i think the prosecution has done exceptionally well in this case. from the very beginning, they told us they were going to show zimmerman's tangled web of lies. that's exactly what is before us now. detective serino was a strong witness for the case.

>> i don't know anybody who knows that thinks that detective serino was a strong witness for the prosecution. just about anybody discussing this case, my program and elsewhere, have said they have never seen a police officer testify so favorably for the defense. the police officer has been called by the prosecution. >> i think what we also have to remember, detective serino, whether this information gets to the jury. detective serino himself recommended manslaughter charges for george zimmerman. >> what does that tell you? >> that tells me there are a lot of inconsistencies with the story. we heard him say that today. we also have to say we can't consider detective serino's testimony in a vacuum, we have to compare it by what other witnesses say to undiscover the inconsistencies. >> the fact that detective

serino himself did not think that a first degree murder charge was warranted, as he testified on the stand, that zimmerman was pretty credible in the things he said. that his story actually held up? >> no, not at all because as detective serino said he was in the initial stages of his investigation. and bernie de la rhonda pointed out that detective serino has not pointed out all the evidence. >> trayvon martin's parents are in the courtroom today. how are they doing thus far? are they confident with the prosecution's case thus far? >> they're confident with the prosecution's case. an emotionally toiling time for them, to have to hear their child scream for help. they're in pain. hearing your child scream for help and not being able to help him. >> i just want to go back to your testimony.

there was a lot of talk, perhaps their testimony, because it was, in a lot of people's opinions, clearly not your, so favorable to the defense that this was some sort of payback for the difficulties between the law enforcement and the prosecution? >> you know, i didn't perceive it that way. i think that's all pure speculation. and i think that we are going to see the prosecution bring this tangled web of lies home during the closing. >> you talk about a tangled web of lies, but that's not what the police themselves were saying, the police who were investigating this. i mean, in cross-examination, by mark o'mara, it seemed pretty clear that the police officers felt like george zimmerman's statements basically held up. there were a few minor inconsistencies coming out -- he said that trayvon martin came out of the bushes, okay, trayvon martin's hand, et cetera, but overall, the police seemed relatively satisfied with what

george zimmerman told them time and time again. >> i think that these were not consistencies. george zimmerman claiming that he was so severely injured that he had to pull out a gun and kill trayvon. detective serino said he didn't believe zimmerman was punched 23 times. and it was more consistent with someone punched only once. and at maximum had his head hit on concrete as well. i think all of these witnesses are bringing into play the injuries. >> jasmine rand, i appreciate your time, thank you. co-counsel mark o'mara joins us. he spoke exclusively with me earlier tonight. i just want to play this for the viewers. >> if we were to take

pathological liar off the table for the purpose of this next question, do you believe he was telling the truth? >> yes. >> how important was your answer? >> well, i think the chief investigating officer, when he was to include evidence, i think he should give insight during his investigation. but it was sort of the comment on the credibility of another witness and we have a rule that addresses that. >> i talked to an attorney by the martin family. they said they were pleased by the testimony given. every other defense attorneys i've talked to, they said they have never seen a police officer testifying so favorably for a defense witness. are you pleased with how the cross-examination has gone,

particularly the lead investigator have told you? >> if they're telling the truth, so be it. as long as they're telling the truth, we'll find justice at the end of the trial. i'm surprised that the martin family attorneys would think that chris serino testimony is favorable to the prosecution. it seemed most what he was saying supported self-defense. >> tomorrow morning, judge nelson is expected to rule a couple reasons, based on what we're bringing, the past to the table, it brings in what trayvon martin brings to the table. all of his violent acts that we know about, some of the fight that he's involved in. but that's not going to be in the table. it's encouraging that george

encouraged stand your ground. and he didn't get a great grade in the course either. some textbook that has nothing to do with florida law. >> you talked about trayvon martin coming out of bushes. the positioning of trayvon martin's hands have been raised. to you, are those not consequential? >> certainly, whether he came out of the bushes, even as chris serino said, he's going to be expected everything that he can. i'm not to worried about that inconsistency. the idea that george zimmerman held his hands out in some form until mr. manalo showed up, i think it's consistent with the facts that trayvon martin brought his hands back in. even john guy suggested that

trayvon martin was clutching his hands. it makes much more sense that it happened that trayvon martin clutched his hands back. >> it seems that the trial is moving fairly quickly. is the time line going faster than what you expected? >> a bit faster than i expected. i think the state may be done tomorrow or friday. that means we start friday or monday. we'll probably take most of next week, hard to say, maybe not. there are still some decisions that the court has to make about the add missability of evidence. he's very worried, he's very stressed. he's glad he finally has his day in court. this is very real to everyone, most importantly, george

zimmerman, we have the state of florida trying to suggest that he killed trayvon martin of some ill-will and hatred. >> now, because of audio tapes talking to police, he's been able to give his version of the events without being cross-examined. you cannot see at this point putting george zimmerman on the stand, can you? >> the first decision point is whether or not i believe the state has proven their case beyond a reasonable doubt. if i think they have made their case in chief, then i'll make the decision whether or not to put the defendant on the stand. if they come up with something the next day or two, i may revisit that decision. >> at this point, do you see having to mount a lengthy defense here? >> we have a lot of witnesses that we want to present to the jury to counter some of the innuendo or suggestions or allegations thrown out there by the state. so we're going to put on a case.

>> mark o'marao'mara, i appreci your time. thank you. >> thanks. just ahead, we're going to get the panel reaction to mark o'mara's testimony. and also the lead investigator serino's testimony minutes before.

welcome back. as we said, tomorrow, the judge is expected to rule on whether george zimmerman's criminal justice course work is admissible. before the break, we heard from the attorney that talked about the testimony from chris sereno, the lead investigator.

today, the judge instructed jurors to disregard part of the testimony serino gave yesterday. i want to get our panel's reaction. back with me is sunny hosten, jeffrey toobin, at the defense table, danny cevallos. and mark geragos. mark, you just heard marks o'mara say the fact that zimmerman's past is likely going to be brought up to open the door for the defense to bring up trayvon martin's past. but trayvon martin isn't on trial, is he? >> he isn't, but you have a self-defense case and the law is that he can bring that stuff up. having said that, i think mark was crossing his fingers behind his back when he was saying a lot of this stuff. i, for the life of me, can't understand why he would prolong this case after the prosecution rests. he has absolutely -- as i said, when this case started, he needs to just hire bodyguards to make sure he doesn't fall and hit his

head before the closing argument because this case is over. >> jeff toobin, you don't see this going into next week? >> mark was saying it's over and he's going to be acquitted. i'm saying it's almost over in the sense that it will go to the jury soon. >> you don't believe that the defense will take all next week? >> no, no way, they may call a handful of witnesses. they don't even have to put on any evidence here. this whole business of his course work, why is that relevant under any theory? i just think -- just talk about stretching, putting in irrelevant evidence. course work that he may or may not have been present or or assignments that would have prompted him to do what? >> sunny, do you think it's important at all? >> oh, i absolutely think it's relevant. >> oh, absolutely, did she >> yeah, did she agree with me. i mean, i think the law provides for it. bottom line, george zimmerman said many times that he didn't know the law, he didn't know anything about self-defense, he didn't know anything about stand your ground.

if you were in school for 149 hours, learning about criminal justice and the system and you wanted to be a cop and you even applied to be a police officer, i think all all of that is relevant because the prosecution has to prove what's going on in his head. what's going on in his head is he has that background so it's completely relevant. >> sunny, sunny -- >> i know you're going disagree with me mark, but you're wrong. >> sunny, i know i'm wrong, but i will question -- when that prosecutor today -- >> this is like your third question, mark. >> when he asked the lead detective do you read the comics and he said no, he said do you remember when in the comics they had that little bubble over their head, seriously, didn't you cringe? done really think at that point this prosecutor has basically lost his mind? because i suspect they're just throwing the case. >> oh, come on, mark. these ridiculous. i think they're throwing the case. >> that's absurd.

but, sunny, what i don't understand is, what does it prove if he took these courses, and he knew what self-defense was? everybody knows what self-defense is. i just don't know the relevance. >> it proves that he lies. it proves that he can embellish. >> he said to sean hannity he didn't know about it. >> he may have been a bad student. >> there's that part where -- i mean, if you gave me, if you considered me not credible or even untruthful because i couldn't remember some things i learned in school, then i'm the least credible person in america because i don't know if i remember anything. >> i don't remember what i did yesterday. >> right. >> are you kidding me? i want to check out toobin's college career. i want to know what toobin was doing in college. >> i think toobin did well in college. i think he did well. i want to turn to the continued testimony today of the lead investigator, chris serino. the prosecution was trying to

drill down the issue of ill-will despite zimmerman with his call to police. listen to this. >> come straight in, don't turn left. he's running. >> which way is he running? >> down towards -- [ inaudible ] >> what entrance is he heading towards? >> the back entrance. >> did you hear that last comment, these [ bleep ] punks? >> yes, sir. >> is the word pardon the language [ bleep ] punks something that you would refer good about people when you would reference them? >> no, it's not. >> that not indicate ill-will and hatred towards somebody? >> no, it does not. >> calling somebody [ bleep ]

punks? >> that is ill will and spite. >> it is? >> yes. >> sunny, the prosecution is trying to get to the heart of the second degree murder charge here, right? >> that's right. i thought, you know, bernie's redirect examination of this witness who is kind of a hostile witness to the prosecution, was masterful. the prosecution has to show that zimmerman had a depraved mind. how do you show that? that he had ill-will, that he had hatred, that he had spite. now you've got the chief investigator who just yesterday was, i don't know, if the defense's pocket of saying actually, yeah, it is ill-will, it is hate, it is spite. that gives the prosecution enough to go to the jury with second degree murder. that is evidence of ill will. so i think, you know, this was a huge victory for the prosecution today. huge. >> mark is being sarcastic. >> huge! sunny, what planet are you on? it may get them past -- it may get them past the judge throwing this case out. but i'm telling you, i think -- >> definitely get them past

that. >> both sides are right here in that this cull comes down to that ill-will. you see mark o'mara, cramming in that language from the statute. now you see the prosecutor doing a trick job of trying to bring the jury back and quibbling over that ill-will. so the case will go to the jury on at least that issue. that's what this is going to come down to. do we believe calling people blanking punks, can that general anger towards a class of people that have been burglarizing the neighborhood, be transferred to this unknown individual, wandering through the neighborhood? that's an ultimate question that will have to be decided. >> anderson, anderson? >> yes? >> can i just put in one thing? >> just one question, yes.

>> look, if this judge -- if this judge actually did her job, she would say there is no enough evidence to put this case in front of the jury. >> that's not true. >> so when sunny says -- no, i'm just telling you -- >> i know you're telling us. >> right now, absolutely, she could say there isn't enough, i'm going to dismiss it right now. so maybe -- >> no. >> -- that kind of bozo the clown prosecutor gets them past that, but that's it. then it goes to the jury. it's a not guilty, save the tape and you're going to be, i think, sunny, pay off the bet. >> i can't wait to save the tape. i cannot wait. >> i want to bring in dr. kobilinsky. the lead investigator was asked about the injuries, about zimmerman's alleged assault. he was questioned about the injuries. i want to play what he said. >> i think on cross-examination, you were asked something about exaggeration. do you recall being asked about that? >> yes, sir. >> do you recall i think either you uttered it or mr. o'mara

asked, uttered it, on behalf of the defendant, exaggeration, do you recall what that was about? >> pertaining to the defendant's statements. >> you felt he was exaggerating certain parts of it? >> among other things. >> you were asked specifically about exaggeration. did you feel he had exaggerated the manner in which he had been hit? >> yes, sir. >> from a forensic standpoint, from what you've seen of the injuries, do you think he was exaggerating? >> i don't. you have to put yourself in the moment. there's fisticuffs. there's a lot of slamming and hitting, smashed in the face. the head is smashed against the ground. you act by reflex, by pure emotion. i'm getting killed, i've got to save myself. you know, we are sitting here and we're trying ing ting to a step-by-step, what was he

thinking did he remember the statute? was it stand alone? we're trying to analyze step by step what happened is -- what happened in the matter of a few seconds. >> it also seemed to me, your adrenaline is pumping so much, you don't think clearly. you're not perceiving things clearly, just in the limited experience i have been punched, is that your understanding? >> that is my understanding. when you have your head smacked against the sidewalk, i think it's a very dangerous situation and i think he feared for his life. >> it is. but it's also worth remembering that he didn't just take a wild swing back at trayvon martin. he shot him dead. >> right. >> and that's very different. and i think we should, and the law does impose a higher standard on people before they shoot people than they take a swing at them. >> i don't think the prosecution -- i don't think this case has gone well for the prosecution, but it is worth remembering that this is a case about someone -- an unarmed kid who was shot dead. >> but the important element is he said that trayvon martin was going for his gun. it wasn't a matter of swinging

back. that was a deadly situation. >> we're going to take a break. we've got more coming up. and more on what george zimmerman's best friend said on the stand today. we'll be right back.

a lot of testimony today on

the weapon that george zimmerman fired. earlier, let's listen to the testimony. >> so during this conversation then, he's telling you that he's trying to keep an eye on trayvon martin however he can. >> that was his intent, was to keep him under observation. >> and at some point -- tell me then, at some point did he say to you i couldn't see him any longer or he lost sight of him? >> that's one of the reasons he got out of the vehicle. >> tell me how he related that to you. >> he said he went in between the sets of townhomes down the walking path. >> when you say "he," you mean trayvon martin? >> right. he lost contact in the darkness in between the townhomes on the walking path. and then he got out of his vehicle to -- it may have been the time when someone was asking

him where is your exact location because the officer was getting close. so as the police officer gets closer and closer to the actual scene, the dispatch likes to tell them exact street house and street numbers so you can find your place exactly. >> we played the wrong sound bite. that wasn't about the gun. but the importance of that sound bite is the prosecution is trying to establish inconsistencies in george zimmerman's story. earlier, there had been reports of zimmerman trying to get out of the vehicle in order to check a building number. now he's saying he was traveling martin or lost sight of him. why is that so important? >> what an interesting witness. because osterman is the prosecution's witness but he's been in law enforcement for a number of years. you watch him. he may have had a little trouble with the sweating, which i guess you can forgive. that's been observed. otherwise, law enforcement, police officers, people in law enforcement are trained testifiers. you can see that when he's testifying. he turns and talks to the jury and he talks about how what zimmerman did dovetailed in right there nicely with police

practice. he's validating zimmerman. >> and the point you wanted to make earlier is that he said that he was the one who told zimmerman to get a gun. why is that so crucial? >> it's so important because i think for many people watching this case, there are many people that are not conceal carry people. they don't have a weapon or a firearm. to them the question is, what was this guy doing running around carrying a gun? it's not something that is in my world. now consider what osterman offers. he's a person in law enforcement and he considered george zimmerman to be his best friend that humanizes george zimmerman. why does george zimmerman carry a gun? this gentleman who has been in law enforcement since 1992 told him unquiver cable unequivocally, you should absolutely be carrying a gun. he validates and answers that question for a lot of us. >> he said everybody that is not a felon should carry. >> many people choose not to, but it begins to answer that question. >> jeff? >> yes, that's helpful. but why as a prosecutor would you call the defendant's best friend.

why give him a forum to say what a great guy george zimmerman is? plus, why would you play the tape of the interview with -- >> because they're throwing the case. >> oh, stop. >> they're throwing the case. >> mark, stop. >> why would they be throwing the case? >> can i tell you why? >> yes, please. >> i really -- i know, jeff, i know you don't believe this, i honestly believe at this point, after watching the cops, after watching the cops do payback and everything else, i really think -- and watching the prosecution sit there when mark o'mara asks questions that are beyond a reasonable doubt objectionable, and they don't object, they wait until the following day, and then when honoring the bell, i think they just decide they're going to phone this in. they're going to lose this. following day, i think they've just decided they're going to phone this in, they're going to lose this and say, you guys wanted us to file this case, we filed it.

>> jeff, jeff, go ahead. >> meanwhile, back on planet earth, the idea -- >> oh, my gosh. why would the prosecutor -- mark, let me finish. >> such an ex-federal prosecutor. >> again, why would the prosecutors put on the sean hannity, fox news interview, with zimmerman? again, a very sympathetic portrayal. >> you just proved my point! >> let sunny talk. >> it shows consistencies. >> yeah, it makes perfect sense because putting a case together like this is like putting a puzzle together without having the picture on the box. so the prosecutor needs to put all the pieces together so they can overlay all the statements -- >> it's like putting a puzzle together -- >> so that the picture comes together. that's what they're doing. it makes perfect sense. >> we've got to go. it's taken me 20 minutes to figure out who was whistling. mark geragos whistling. i've never heard a guest just

not speaking anymore, just whistling. thank you very much. big news tonight out of egypt, where the death toll is climbing, the clock is ticking down to a deadline. we'll take you there next. [ male announcer ] for diarrhea, you take kaopectate.

but for all these symptoms, you also take kaopectate. new kaopectate caplets -- soothing relief for all those symptoms. kaopectate. one and done. it's been a big night for news around the country and the world. susan hendricks is here with the "360" bull pen. in egypt, state run media is reporting that 16 people were killed and 200 injured in clashes at cairo university. and president mohamed morsi told military leaders he won't bow to their ultimatum to change his government and refused opposition calls to resign,

saying voters chose him in a free election. in response, the military released a statement saying the army will sacrifice blood to defend the country against any terrorists, extremists or fools. in the u.s., the obama administration is postponing a key provision of the affordable care act. the treasury department said the requirement that businesses provide their workers with health insurance will be delayed by one year. penalties will now begin in 2015. business owners had expressed concerns about the complexity of the reporting requirements. edward snowden's options for asylum are shrinking. 11 of the 21 countries he's applied to have said they can't consider his request until he shows up at one of their embassies on on their borders. three have said no outright. blifr bolivia or venezuela has signaled they might give him asylum. and dennis rodman told "sports illustrated" he deserves to win a nobel peace prize for his outreach efforts to north korea.

rodman met with kim jung u.n. for his controversial trip to the country. this is my computer? this is your computer. let's go on the internet. let's go. click it? yes. ok. i cursor in between the r and the e.

when i say dot, i want you to just push the period. she's going to love me all over again now. that's it! jamaica here you come! here we go. all right. good job. thank you. thank you. i did it. by myself. feel smarter.

♪ developing right now, crisis in egypt. this morning, deadly protests and defiant president refuses an ultimatum from his army to step down. could egypt now be heading for a civil war? and storms flooding the east coast as the sun bakes the west. extreme weather from coast to coast. will it let up in time for the holiday weekend? and that brutal weather fanning the flames this morning of the deadly arizona wildfire that killed 19 firefighters. now, we're learning now heartbreaking information about the sole survivor of that elite firefighting crew. >> good morning, everyone. welcome to