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tv   Anderson Cooper 360  CNN  July 4, 2013 1:00am-2:01am PDT

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from election to ejection. after one year in office, a dramatic exit in egypt for morsi. >> now that he is being pushed out, what is next for the country. hello, welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world for this special edition of "cnn news room." >> i'm becky anderson in cairo for you at 10:00 a.m. local time. thank you for joining us.
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egypt's first democratically elected president has been forced out by the military. the muslim brotherhood's ruling party says morsi is now under house arrest. i can tell you, it is unclear, at this point, on thursday morning, 10:00 a.m. local time, exactly where he is. his opponents are celebrating. supporters of the former president says he is a military coup. rounded up and taken into custody. the arrest of some 300 at this stage. the army paving the way for a new government. the head of egypt's supreme constitution. a man we know little about. he'll be sworn in as the interim head of the first state later on
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today, possibly within the next half hour. the constitution here has been suspended. a huge moment in politics in egypt. egypt's new leadership was announced and televised speech to the nation around 9:00 p.m. last night, wednesday. state media say 32 people were killed in clashes on wednesday. hundreds more have been wounded. that's the story and the picture here in egypt. let's see how this is being received regionally and around the world. there has been a mixed reaction from international leaders. president barack obama has said he's concerned about the removal of egypt's first democratically elected president. he was elected by the will of the people at the ballot box a year ago, almost to the day.
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saudi arabia's king abdullah sent a message of support to the new interim council and the military and incoming leader who, as i say, will be installed in the next half hour or so. let's get analysis on what's going on here. we have the professor of middle east politics at a&m. what is happening now? >> i think we are waiting to find out thchlt is a profoundly historic moment in egypt. it's still early in cairo egypt. it's going to be regulatory in understanding the speech last night. >> he'll be installed as interim president. what do we know about this man? >> not a lot. there's speculation about his
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background. he's someone who was appointed by mubarak. again, as with everything else in the process, more questions than answers. >> what do you make of the reaction from the international community? let's start off with you. >> i think the u.s., as you mentioned, the statements from barack obama last night has been conscious and restrained, which many people think is quite smart in reaction to the fluid nature of events right now. the international community is waiting to see. this is something unprecedented. this is something very different. a new permeation. >> unprecedented. egypt's revolution. you couldn't call it democracy as those in the west would know it. what we have seen is an effective military coup. we have seen the removal of a
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democratically elected president after only a year because the people of egypt decided you know, we don't like him after all. he was elected by 51% of the population a year or so ago. this isn't democracy has a lot of people know it, is it? >> the last few days have been proving the complexity. democracy is one of the most debated concepts in the academic literature. i think the reaction that we are hearing from egyptians and the resis tense of calling this is coup is a testament to that. the reactions the last few days have been supported by many people. 13 million on sunday. >> there is a muslim brotherhood that took 80 years to get a foothold on politics. we have to be clear, there are
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millions of people here in egypt who do support the brotherhood and serious concern now about how some of those might act going forward. >> that's a real concern. there are reports over the last few hours of arrest of muslim brotherhood leaders, travel bans on top leaders, as well. supporters, lots of members of the population that support the musl muslim brotherhood. what kind of reaction is going to unfold? the expectation is violence will escalate and how the transitional government or the transition deals with it now is crucial. >> they said they will invoke all factions, all political parties. you want to be involved in this process. it has to be inclusive as opposed to exclusive. thank you for joining us.
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the potential for unrest, very, very high still over the next few days. let me just describe the scene behind myself and erin here. it is very, very quiet after what was scenes of mass jubilation, giant rallies across the city last night. hundreds of thousands if not a million people in the square below me and the noise, the cheering, the horns, the fireworks, went off well into the night. just being told the swearing in of the new transitional president is happening as we speak. let's get to beirut for you. another one of our reporters on this story looking at regional developments and reaction. mohammed is standing by now.
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regional reaction, not only king abdullah of saudi arabia that morsi is over and the military intervened. your thoughts? >> reporter: well, becky, we have been waiting throughout the morning to see what the reaction would be. earlier, it looked like it was mixed. the first people out of the gate, the biggest sunni power players here, saudi arabia, a lot of people surprised they issued a statement as early as they did. normally, they are more stand offish to releasing statements. he congratulated the egyptian military for what they pulled off. in his statement, he added, we strongly shake hands with the men of all the armed forces who managed to save egypt from a
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dark tunnel. god could only apprehend its dimensions and repercussions. it's how concerned they were about what was going on in egypt and the effect it could have on the region. the uae issued a statement. they are no fan of the muslim brotherhood. they said it's a band organization in the uae. they are following with satisfaction the development that is transpired. making it clear they are happy that morsi has been ousted there and it is a big blow to the hopes in egypt. most interestingly today from em battled syrian president. we can only describe his statement as one that had a gleeful tone. he was gloating, pointing out he predicted the muslim brotherhood would fail in egypt. he stated, this is why, from the
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beginning i said their project is a failure before it began. this is what made the muslim brotherhood experiment fall quickly because it is wrong and what is built on a wrang principle will definitely fall. they are trying to stick it to the muslim brotherhood, especially morsi, someone who encouraged the down fall, encouraged the rebels in syria and taking an opportunity to say i told you so and claiming he knew they would fail in this experiment as he calls it, becky. >> fascinating times. not just for egypt, the region and the eyes of the world. thank you for that. i want to get to where he is being sworn in as egypt's
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transitional president. quite remarkable times. let's listen in to the swearing in ceremony now. all right. okay. some pictures there of what is a monumental moment in egyptian politics as i lose my voice, slightly. i'm going to chuck this back to john at the studio. john. >> thank you, becky. let's take a look at other stories we are following this hour. in turkey, a controversial building that triggered violence. plans to rebuild istanbul's park to turn it into barracks.
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the court ruled against the plans in june, but the information wasn't made public until now. in the u.s., prosecutors in the george zimmerman trial presented dna evidence. zimmerman is charged with killing 17-year-old trayvon martin in february. the two got into a fight and he was forced to shoot martin in self-defense. experts it haved no traces of zimmerman's dna was on his sweatshirt or under his fingernails. >> the comparison of my other standard from trayvon martin to the mixture, i determine trayvon martin was excluded to being part of the mixture. >> part of exhibit 203, the swab or the dna that you developed from the pistol grip is positive
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for blood, correct? >> yes. >> there was a mixture. the major was george zimmerman? >> yes. >> you were able to exclude trayvon martin as having dna on the pistol, is that correct? >> yes. he was excluded to being a mixture on it. >> egypt had two leaders toppled in the last two years. how does this country now move forward? we'll discuss it after a short break.
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welcome back to cnn news room. the down fall of the government and the economy is expected to take another hit because of the ongoing turmoil. if washington decides they have a coup, the u.s. could suspend more than $1 billion in aid it gives to egypt every year.
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we have a market strategist for etx capital. he joins us from london. looking ahead t problems remain the same for egypt. it's just not a functioning econo economy. >> unemployment is up to 13%. deficit is 11.5% in 2013. reserves are drying up. household consumption is contracting. the picture is not pretty for egypt. the economic aspect is bleak. donations are going to be scaled back. the imf's loan or deal for a loan is dead in the water. they can't bank on a country that hasn't got a stable government in place. for investors on economic perspecti perspective, the investment case for egypt is ugly at the moment. despite the fact we have seen
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the removal of mr. morsi and we may get another democratic party winning the next election is removed and the civil unrest that is taking place in egypt. >> this is the problem. interimly, military generals are not known for long term economic reform. can you see this cycle continuing? the economy tanks, people take to the streets, political instability and a new leader comes along? >> yeah. >> how do they get out of this problem? >> we have the elections. they have the task of imp limiting measures. it's going to antagonize the population. the stock market is likely to rally on the back of that. on a broader level, for the next few months until we do have a
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firm time line in place for the elections. we are going to see a similar unrest, backlash from morsi supporters and terrorism in some places. it's really going make the situation worse. so, egyptians are not going reaction positively to these deep cuts they are going to put in place. it's a situation that is not going to be resolved overnight. it's going to require a strong egyptian government in place. >> there's talk washington may be legally bound to with hold the money it gives to egypt. how crucial is it for that foreign aid to continue? >> absolutely crucial for egypt. president obama chose his words carefully yesterday when calling
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it a coup. when it comes to foreign aid, they are lacking that. they are going hold back the nations, injecting funds since morsi took over. libya has a $2 billion interest free loan with egypt, which i'm sure they are going to want back. the imf deal is dead in the water. unlikely it's going to pick up anytime soon. it seems like for the next few months, we are going have a very, it's a prolonged, uncertain atmosphere for egypt. the country deeply requires the need of donations and foreign aid to function and remain afloat. otherwise, we are going to see the country in a deep, economic contraption for the years ahead. >> quickly, the libyans want their money back. if the imf says no to the $5
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billion, where do you get capital from? >> absolutely, where do you get it from. companies like rascom look attractive. there are still assets that remain in egypt, particularly companies exposed to production. we have companies in the uk running on the back of morsi's removal. investors will have to start picking the rights of assets where we may see some, we may get a more positive turn when it comes to economic growth when it finally kicks in. there's opportunity there. a lot of egyptians are helping that change in government will restore confidence in the market and the rest of the world as they start to increase. >> okay. there may be a bright side in all of this, but there's still
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bumpy days ahead, i guess. marketing strategist in london. thank you for that, we appreciate it. let's get back to becky who is live covering all this in cairo at this hour. becky? >> yes, we are going take a very short break, i believe. at this point, we'll be back after this.
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at 20 past ten or so local time in cairo, it is a very warm welcome back to this special program here on cnn. i'm becky anderson for you. all the political and economic uncertainty in egypt now prevails. what the future holds is unclear at this point. what we do know is it is a new day and a new dawn. the transitional president has been sworn in. the military intervening some 13 hours ago and ousting the former president, morsi. rounding out and arresting members of the muslim brotherhood overnight. very uncertain times, as i say, going ahead here in egypt. we are live in cairo today with
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the international crisis group. many questions. many unanswered questions at this point. what do you make of what we have seen and heard over the past hours? >> well, i mean it's a very chaotic scene at the moment. we are not sure where the country is exactly headed. we have completely done away with the constitutional process that was under way and we are obviously in a transitional phase headed by the military and very clearly controlled by it. we are going probably have a civilian government and president who is head of the supreme constitutional court. it's very key at this moment that the new transition avoid the same mistakes of the first. it cannot be exclusionary. it needs to include all parties, including the muslim
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brotherhood. the signs we are hearing so far are very troubling. >> some of the things we have heard in the past hour or so, the armed forces who quite frankly you suggested and you are right to say are in charge here said two things over the past hour or so. they said they will not tolerate any attacks on islamic groups here. we know the muslim brotherhood is under an awful lot of pressure. they will absolutely not tolerate attacks on anybody affiliated with them. they have also said this will be an inclusive system going forward. they have said they will include all political factions. do you see evidence of that, at least already? >> so far, we have seen arrest warrants issued for muslim brotherhood and detentions of leaders. morsi has been detained by the military. also, the, you know, freedom
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party, though the president of that party has been arrested last night. so, you know, that could be a tactic to pressure the muslim brothers to compromise and come to the negotiating table and try and actually partake in this new transition. i hope that that's the case and not the beginning of a crackdown that could only spell further violence, further bloodshed and further instability for egypt at a time that can ill afford it especially economically and for the cause of social peace. >> sure. thank you for that. from the international crisis brief here in cairo via skype for you. viewers get a sense of the statement that was made by the head of the military, the defense here and around 9:00 on
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wednesday evening. this is what he said. >> families that -- >> translator: the armed forces calling the egyptian people to continue to have peaceful protests and in the crisis and shed the blood. it will respond with cooperation of the interior ministry with a strong determination if they deviate in accordance to the law. >> right. a man who i know will say that was music to his ears. a man who is being part of the growing opposition here in egypt. he's a founding member of the party and very much involved in what was called the june 30th movement here. very instrumental in the removal of the muslim brotherhood and the former president, morsi. a new day, a new dawn and a
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future that you will tell me is bright this morning. >> i would love to be that optimistic but i am cautiously optimistic. we are going through a big process that will take months until we have a process in egypt rather than going to the streets. >> what the united states wants to see this morning, i want to talk to the u.s. and its involvement here in egypt now. the president barack obama has said that he is concerned about the removal of a democratically elected president. we do know that the u.s. has an influence here, certainly it has in the past. will it have going forward? >> the u.s. and this administration had catastrophic influences for the past few years. we know for a fact they have pushed with all their efforts
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for a muslim brotherhood to begin with before elections. we know they have supported the muslim brotherhood. >> how do you know this? >> through internal talks and negotiations. how they are confident of the american support. the american officials and american politicians as well. >> you are telling me this morning, the reputation of the united states is not a good one here today. >> this administration has the worst campaign for the american government in decades. they have the worst diplomats ever. the american ambassador who has been anything but diplomatic. we have seen egypt's politics pushed and compromised by the american policymaker in favor of the middle east.
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>> i have certainly seen protests and process against the ambassador here. just briefly, what can the states do in your mind? not everyone will agree with you, but you are making your point. what can the united states do to improve their reputation with this transitional government? >> morsi was the vision policies he was installing united the whole of the egyptians were in a bit of a standstill for the past few years against him. he struggled against egyptians and his militant supporters are now attacking churches, civilians and going on a rampage. the americans aligning themselves in support of morsi claim thg is a democracy, this is opposite. they are making themselves unnecessarily enemies of the egyptian people movement.
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yes, we are now, the military is aligning itself to the egyptian people. my friends, my fellows are heading to the nation by the muslim brotherhood supporters and to support anything that no attacks -- their freedom of choice. we do not support their government. this is a democratic move. morsi was elected by 13 billion egyptians. more than 13 billion egyptians marched into the streets saying please, please save our country. don't go into civil war. don't push your political agenda against ours. we have zero to oppose any political policy that morsi installed. he did not do a good job in putting back parliament. he imposed a law that would have deprived them of a choice. the only way, the only democratic way that is there was
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early elections. you have failed in management. you have to leave the country. we were very inclusive. the problem is, if morsi and the muslim brotherhood continue in a campaign against egypt, how it is possible they want sanctions and political intervention. the president that was claiming there was interventions from the outside in the country is now, their supporters are calling for him to come back to oppose the egyptians. >> all right. i understand. you made very good points. thank you. >> thank you very much for having me. >> we have to take a very short break. you are listening to analysis here of the ongoing and fluid situation here in egypt this morning. a new transitional president already installed and testing times. back after this.
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welcome back to cnn news room, i'm becky anderson in cairo in egypt. >> i'm john at the cnn news center. we are closely following things in egypt. president morsi is under arrest after being ousted by the military. his access to the outside world has been cut off. a short time ago, the new interim leader was being sworn in. he is the head of the supreme constitutional court. he will take over as the interim leader. state media says 32 people were killed in clashes on wednesday. state run media reporting that members of the former
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president's staff are being rounded up and taken into custody. opponents of the former leader have been celebrating. his supporters of morsi say this is, in fact, a coup. the constitution has been suspended. just what the muslim brotherhood will do next is the next question. it's the largest islamic organization. itis been part of the political seen for 80 years. the brotherhood was outlawed. december that year, the freedom and justice party emerged as the most potent force dominating parliamentary sources. morsi was egypt's first civilian president only to be accused of trying to impose the brotherhood's islamic views on society. a lot more on egypt. let's go back to becky who is
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standing by live in cairo this morning. becky? >> that's right. about 35 minutes past 10:00, local time here. so, we are about 13 or 14 hours after the military intervention announced on state television by the head of the military, the defense chief here. morsi held under house arrest. the military here in egypt is rounding up members of his party, the muslim brotherhood. let's bring back aaron snyder, a processor at texas a&m university. before we bring in erin, i want to get to ian lee outside the court where the transitional president has just been installed. that has happened in much quicker than you and i wof
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expected this morning. >> right here behind me you have the supreme constitutional court. it was just a year ago where morsi did the exact same oath. security has been tight here. we have armored personnel carriers behind me. the police, the army tight security. supporters or protesters, people who supported what happened yesterday are outside. we see people who supported former president morsi say thg is the right and they are opposed to what is taking place right now. >> yeah, i mean you rightly point out that this is exactly the same place where a democratically elected morsi was installed just a year ago. one of those who are out there protesting these changes saying
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this morning there is a sense there could be unrest going forward. not everybody cheering this change. >> that's exactly right. people here who are protesting this as a military coup. by definition, it was. they say their feel cheated that their democratically elected president was overthrown in such a way since they felt he was legitimate government of egypt. you have those protester who is say what happened yesterday was a popular uprising. the army facilitated a transition to what we have now who is now the new president of egypt adly mansour. he's with the interim government to guide egypt through this period, drafting a new constitution as well as
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parliamenta parliamentary. >> ian lee with breaking news that egypt now has a new transitional president. things are happening quickly here in cairo this thursday morning. let's bring back erin schneider who is here with me for analysis. they are holding morsi under house arrest, rounding up members of the muslim brotherhood, including civili s civilians. we have just seen adly mansour, a man few have heard from in the outside world let alone in egypt. then people will have known as the former u.n. watchdog for nuclear power. obviously front and center in politics here going forward as well. are they going to be in charge or are these two men fig leafs for the military?
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>> it's a great question. essentially, we don't know. there's an enormous amount of ambiguity. it's a fluid situation. we are waiting to see how things are articulated by the military and how this is going to be received by the public and different elements of the public as well. >> we know how the public here cheered in tahrir square, jub lent by the decision of the military to intervene. the morsi administration. we have also heard from the international community this morning. it's important to get this view. they start off with the united states. previous to you, they said the reputation of the united states here in egypt isn't very good at the moment. they were supportive of the morsi administration and the muslim brotherhood. the will of the people got rid
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of that. do you agree -- do you agree the united states has a bad reputation? >> the united states government has had a credibility problem for many years. this is not new. a lot of people, scholars and analysts have attributed it to the administration of george w. bush with the democracy and the approach after 9/11 that was chosen with a great deal of fanfare and rhetoric. there was an effort to push through democracy without, you know, without being committed to it. it's been the critique. it's been a hypercritical haphazard commitment to that. >> they played a bad hand in this arab revolution? >> i think it's been handled clumsily. the administration struggled with how to respond to change in
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the region. an enormous amount of change that turned on its head, the dynamic that guided policy in the region for the last 30 years and, you know, it's still, i think, trying to figure out how to proceed without respecting what the people in the region want and retaining national interest as well. >> john kerry has been on the road for weeks now. he will be watching what is going on here over the past 48 hours. i'm sure wondering whether policy changes back home as a result of what he's seeing. thank you very much, indeed for joining us. erin snider. we are going take a very short break. i'm becky anderson live in cairo for you at around 10:45 in the morning. back after this. wyuu1 0 &xfr
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welcome back to cairo in egypt where it is a new day and a new dawn. morsi is under house arrest. members of the muslim brotherhood have been arrested overnight. it was the handling of the economy, one of the driving forces behind the protests that ultimately led to morsi's down fall and the demise here certainly short time of the influence of the muslim brotherhood. the current political turmoil could create even more economic uncertainty. i want to bring back john out after abu dhabi.
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we have seen the rush hour. things appear to be working this morning after hours after what was a military intervention. this morning the installation of a transitional president. it is important, isn't it, what happens next as this economy is concerned? your thoughts? >> yeah, indeed. i think your point is well taken here. nobody seems to be in big shock. we have to wait and see how this plays out in tahrir square, for example. the business community was looking for a smooth transition. look where we were 12 hours ago. this could be a prolonged transition and would have been messy here negotiating with the muslim brotherhood. the business leaders i spoke to overnight are happy it happened quickly. we had the swearing in of the interim government. mansour is trusted and not
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starving for power. that means they would try to get the constitution rewritten quickly, get to elections and move. that's what the markets would like to see right now. they know there's a lot of work to be had. the military promised a smooth transition in a six month period. it took well over a year. we are watching carefully how it transpires. there's a big inbox for the government. they only had $15 billion in cash reserves. itis half the level prior to the revolution. it's been a benefit to them for the middle east benefactors. saudi arabia, uae, turkey and libya have been giving them money to get through the crunch period. they have not qualified for the $5 billion imf loan. the new government knows what needs to happen and the military needs to send a signal to the international community that is not eager to hold on to power
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for a long period of time. they have technocrats in. it's something president morsi has not done. >> thank you very much, indeed, for that. john is making very, very valid points this morning for what is a new dawn for egypt and its people. a very uncertain future as things stand. let's get you other news with john now back at cnn center. >> thank you, becky. >> france is apologizings for refusing to allow a jet into its air space during a return trip to russia. the president arrived home to a hero's welcome. he was showered with confetti. he was a victim of an act of aggression by france and other european countries.
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they denied his jet overfly rights because of suspicions edward snowden may have been on board. the bolivian president said the united states was behind the whole thing. >> translator: i would like to tell you that some european countries have to free themselves from the american empire. i cannot believe that some countries are faithful servants of american imperialialism. >> turns out snowden was not on board his plane. the former intelligence analyst is believed to be stranded at a moscow airport and the fallout of leaks is only just getting started. the french government wants to delay trade talks. the parliament is setting up their own investigation. live to london. let's start with the french. they wanted to lay that big eu
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trade deal. is this a serious threat? >> the president suggested the talks should be delayed for two weeks because of this, what seems to be happening is the european union nations decided to continue with the trade talks. also, at the same time, parallel to the talks, initiate talks about the alleged spying of european union embassies in the u.s. and brussels. the talks will run in parallel. it appears to be how the trade talks get under way. europe took this seriously. there have been a number of discussions about whether or not the trade talks should continue because of this. you cannot underestimate the impact this has had. >> the u.s. president is trying to smooth relations, he spoke with angela merkel by phone. what was said during that conversation? >> yeah, they talked specifically about the allegations president obama assuring angela merkel,
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according to the white house, they are taking their concerns seriously and reiterates that washington was willing to discuss the issue and to sort of straighten out what had happened. essentially, it sounds like a lot of explaining for what's going on. germany, in particular is sensitive about data protection and privacy. to them, they have made several strong statements saying this is reminiscent of the cold war and don't expect it from such a strong ally of the united states. germany has been key in the talks. a south african judge intervened in a bitter mandela family feud, ordering the grandson to return the bodies of mr. mandela's three deceased children. all of this as the father of south african democracy fights for his life in a hospital. that's where we have this thursday. the judge was scathing of
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mandela's grandson. what did he say? >> exactly. he was, he called mandela's behavior scandalous. it's worth keeping in mind that mandela is being investigated by the south african police for a criminal charge of tampering with graves. we are suspecting his oldest grandson will address the media today and will start speaking any minute from now. we have not heard from him yet. what we did pick up from the court papers from the court application is additional information about mr. mandela who is still critically ill in the hospital behind me. his oldest daughter saying his condition is perilless. this is real. there is an urgency in dealing with where he will be laid to
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rest, ultimately. john? >> okay. we can hear the singing behind you there as supporters gather once again outside that hospital. thank you. we'll take a short break here on cnn news room. we'll be back in a moment with a final look at the day in egypt.
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welcome back to cnn news room. i'm john in atlanta. >> i'm becky anderson in cairo for you. i want us to step back for a moment and reflect on what has happened here in egypt over the past few hours. have a look at this. >> may god preserve egypt and its people. >> it's not just here.
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i was traveling throughout central cairo a half hour ago and i saw these pockets of egyptians celebrating what many of them felt was the imminent overthrow, you could call it, of egypt's first ever democratically elected president, morsi, elected just a year ago. i'm frankly quite stunned at how much ill will he generated among so many egyptians that they just felt it was time now to throw away the electoral process and simply start fresh. it imposed a lot of challenges here. it was remarkable to see the soldiers, the troops, the police, the special forces deploying on bridges, on major roads, blocking traffic, especially around areas where morsi supporters set up protest camps, one in particular that we
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visited in front of the university of cairo. i met some of the young men walking through there that were not military. one said of course this is a military coup, but i want this. i want to protect the people from the muslim brotherhood who are out for blood. it's what one supporter of the move by the military said to me. i walked 200 yards from special forces and police and armored personnel carriers to the muslim brotherhood supporters firing off fireworks an hour ago. they said this is a military coup. we are not going anywhere. we are non-violent. we are going say here and defend our man, morsi, even if it takes us dying. we have incredible polarization now between the people who celebrating the suspension of the egyptian constitution and
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those who voted for morsi, some of whom are saying, at least, they are willing to die for him to stay in office. wolf? >> you just heard the announcement from the top -- >> the mood here is very dark, very angry. we are hearing chants which mean victory or martyrdom. >> i'm becky anderson in cairo for the time being. it's a very good day from egypt. >> i'm john from cnn news room. "early start" is next. stay with us. there's more cnn news room after the break.
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breaking thu morning, revolution in egypt, truly stunning, the first democratically elected president. troops on the street. a new leader in charge. new questions for the white house about how to navigate through this crisis. >> evidence mounting in the murder case against former nfl star aaron hernandez. we now know what police found inside his secrete apartment. a woman trapped when