whether or not pilot error. 180 people and dan. what's with this interview. it seems crucial what the pilot has to say. we know a couple of things. first of all the pilot never landed this type of plane at san francisco's airport. the boeing 777. only had 43 hours of experience on that aircraft. is that what they are focusing on today? >> well they're going to be focusing on everything. this is day two of the interviews. we believe they are still in progress. obviously what the intentions were, what the procedures were.

it will be an important part of the investigation as well. this is a veteran flight attendants. she had been with this airline for two decades. put yourself in her position. she knocks on the cockpit door and asks should we begin the evacuation orders or the procedures. the pilot instructs her to basically hold on. this is what she had to say.

>> translator: after the plane stopped completely i went into the cockpit to see if the captain was alive or not. the captain asked and i asked are you okay. he said yes, i'm okay. i asked should i perform evacuation? he told me to wait. >> reporter: if that account is true it's very bizarre and very curious why the pilot would say hold on. you just crash landed and the passengers want to get off and to delay that in any fashion seems to fly in the face of common sense. all that will be looked at by

investigators. not just what happened in terms of crash but the evacuation procedures as well. >> the flight attendant that you mentioned she was the last person to leave the plane. the burning wreckage and she helped guide a lot of frantic passengers off the plane and she didn't even notice to stop that she was injured herself. we have more about what happened after the crash. >> reporter: moments after the asiana crashed they escaped. now those flight attendants are being called heroes. >> translator: it was not the landing we usually do an it was more than a hard landing. we bumped hard, bumped again and

stopped. then the emergency slide popped from the first door on the right and popped inward. that's when i knew that the situation was not normal. >> reporter: the cabin manager's kicked in. >> translator: my brain was clear and i planned what i had to do immediately. i was not thinking but acting. as soon as i heard emergency escape i conducted the evacuation. when there was a fire i was thinking to extinguish it. >> reporter: rescue workers arrived quickly to assist the evacuation. they were impressed with the crew's quick action. >> i interacted with one of the crew managers. she was so composed i thought she was brought in from the terminal. she had evacuated herself off the plane. she was not concerned for her safety but everyone else's.

i was impressed with the crew as quell. >> reporter: the training flight attendants receive is extensive. they have a special 22 hour focus on emergency escape. something the cabin manager is known to have excelled in. many believe it's this training that prevented a higher death toll. >> some crash survivors are being criticized because they collected their carry on bags before getting off the plane. they are accused of putting other passengers at risk during this emergency evacuation. one person wrote i am so disappointed those passengers think their bags is more important than other people's lives. another said, foreigners, especially americans don't understand that in china human lives are cheaper than money. others say passengers may have been stunned not thinking

clearly. in defending them one person wrote grabbing the bag is an instinct response. three women held captive tr a decade are breaking their silence. this is in that cleveland house that ended two months ago when rescued. amanda berry, and michelle knight are speaking. we see what they are saying about their ordeal. >> reporter: in a four-minute you tube video they're speaking publicly for the first time. >> i want to thank everyone that has helped me and my family. >> i would say thank you for support. >> thank you everyone for your love, support and donations which helped me build a brand

new life. >> reporter: more than a million dollars has been donated to the courage fund to help the women heal after a decade of abuse by ariel castro. he's charged with beating, raping and starving them. the women seem upbeat, not bitter. >> i'm getting stronger today. i ask that everyone continue to respect our privacy and give us time to have a normal life. >> be positive. learn that it's important to give than to receive. thank you for al your prayers. >> reporter: michelle knight held the longest. >> i will not let the situation define who i am. i will define the situation. i don't want to be consumed by

hatred. with that being said we need to take a leap of faith and no that god is in control. >> reporter: they were once known only as silent victims. now they want the world to know they have a voice and have reclaimed their lives. >> pamela brown joins us live. you've been following this from if beginning. tell us why you think they came out now, the timing of this announcement and do we think this is the format they will continue to speak about their recove recovery? >> it's a good question. i spoke to the women's attorney and a family friend of one of the victims and i'm told that this is a way for the young women to give a direct thank you to all the people who have not only supported them but donated to the courage fund. more than a million dollars has been donated to the courage fund. as the attorney told me this was their message delivered the way

they wanted it to be delivered. it was way not only to say thank you to let everyone know that they're moving forward with their lives but to reiterate they need privacy and need to continue to heal and the family friend i spoke with reiterated to me they are not planning on doing any sit down interviews until this case is over with. >> i know there's been an outpouring of support for these young women. it's amazing to see the pictures of them as young girls and now as young women. the million dollars in this fund, what do they hope to accomplish? is this part for education or is it for therapy ? how do they want to use the resources? >> instead of choosing to take the money in a lump sum they will have it di vied up. it will be up in separate trusts, three for the women and for amanda berry's 6-year-old daughter. we're not sure how they plan to

use the money. we know that every penny will go into these trusts and in addition to the money they are receiving there's been several offers, several services offered. one university offered free tuition for the women. a lot of companies and steppin them out. >> thank you. george zimmerman's defense team wants to see a 3-d reenactment. is the judge going to allow this? we're live inside the courtroom, up ahead. plus, he wore a cowboy hat while tending to his garden. we're talking about osama bin laden. new details about he lived his last few years and tried to avoi capture. hey linda!

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[ male announcer ] now get 50% off brake pads and shoes at meineke. the death toll in the canadian train explosion is now up to 13. they say some victims were likely vaporized by the sheer intensity of that fire. 1200 people now being allowed back into their homes and the chairman of the company that owns the railways says there's evidence the train had been tampered with. he doesn't believe it was malicious or an act of terrorism. investigators say they have seen no evidence of sabotage. in egypt they are trying to get a handle on the violence. state media says the govent will investigate monday's

killings. it was called bloody monday. in cairo 51 people were killed. 435 wounded in fighting between military forces and supporters of the president morsi. this was the deadliest day since the revolution that forced out former president mubarak back in 2011. he's outlined a timetable for new elections. we are learning new details about the final years of osama bin laden's. among other things the master mind wore a cowboy hat with a big brim while tending to his garden and playing with his grandchildren.

>> reporter: he would wear a cowboy hat when walking around his compounds from prevent prying eyes or satellites seeing him. he was a involved father and grandfather. he was supervising a dozen kids. he was awarding people prizes if they grew particularly good vegetables. it gives a sense of the domestic din la den at the same time explaining why he was able to live undetected for nine years. one interesting detail his wife had four kids. one of his wives had four kids on the run. she went to pakistani hospital. they would inform the doctors and nurses that she was deaf and dumb. so there would be no questions of who she was and why she wasn't a local. bin laden was practicing careful operat

operational security. >> that's fascinating report. fast moving prop cal storm chantal churning towards the eastern caribbean. that's right now. it's packing winds of about 50 miles per hour add well as bringing torrential rain. could swamp haiti, the dominican republic and puerto rioc. they both said it was their son screaming on those 911 tapes. that call with heartbreaking testimony from the mothers of trayvon martin and george zimmerman. is it a good idea to have family members take the stand. >> the risk of having loved ones speak to the jury. hey kevin...still eating chalk for heartburn?

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we're watching the courtroom in sanford, florida. you can see the live pic. they're on a lunch break. they'll be back shortly. testimony set to resume any moment. this is george zimmerman's murder trial. we'll take you back to the courtroom as soon as that starts. most emotional testimony we heard so far in the trial has come from, in doubt, the family members. both from the victims as well as the defense. you might think the jurors give special consideration to the family's systtestimony, right? doesn't always work that way. >> reporter: duelling testimony from mothers on both sides over just who was screaming during the 911 call.

>> that screaming or yelling do you recognize that? >> yes. >> who do you recognize that to be? >> trayvon benjamin martin's. >> do you know whose voice that was? >> yes, sir. >> whose voice was that? >> my son, george. >> reporter: during emotional trials family members are star witnesses. put on the stand for their sometimes emotional and personal insight in hopes of gaining favor with the jury. the question is, is it effective? sometimes yes and sometimes no. >> a lot of times jurors will disregard family testimony because they simply believe there's so much bias involved that that's not a neutral witness or truthful witness. >> reporter: that hasn't stopped attorneys from trying. sometimes the person testifying helps. after sentencing one of the killers to death, several jurors from a horrific triple murder case in connecticut said they were amazed by the strength of

the victim's husband and father in court. >> seeing him there, seeing his courage and seeing his strength after everything he's been through that transferred to us. >> reporter: it can be risky and backfire. after michael jackson was acquitted of child molestation cha charges they had a hard time believing the mother. >> we didn't think she was a credible mother. >> reporter: in george zimmerman's case both sides see it as a risk worth taking. two members of his family testified and three from trayvon martin's. >> that was my best friend in life and to have him gone is a tragedy. >> i was on the computer and that voice just came and hit me. it hit me in a way i heard that but i felt it inside my heart

that is george. >> we've got to believe somebody and a lot of it goads down to credibility. >> reporter: with a case where the facts remain so elusive credibility may ultimately be the key. anybody that has done home renovations will tell you it's a long process but we have basic steps that will help make it all worth it. [ male announcer ] this is kevin. to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet?

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they say they will do alike the say they'll be there at 9:00 and show up at 10:00, don't talk to them. >> every penny you invest you might not get it back. back to you. >> thank you. you see the little box. that's because we're waiting for the trial to resume. they should be back in a couple of minutes. we're told that dr. vincent dimaio will return to give more testimony after the break. at a dry cleaner, we replaced people with a machine. what? customers didn't like it. so why do banks do it? hello? hello?! if your bank doesn't let you talk to a real person 24/7, you need an ally.

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we're keeping a close eye on the live trial. you see george zimmerman sitting there. the jury is being brought back from their launch break. the defense attorneys brought earlier today a forensic pathologist who will be taking the stand continuing his testimony. he has expertise in gunshot wounds. this is dr. vincent dimaio, his analyst backs up zimmerman's side of the story. he says he believe it was trayvon martin on top of

zimmerman after the fight leaning forward and threatening him. i want you to listen to this from earlier this morning. >> if you lean over somebody i would notice that the clothing tends to fall away from the chest. if, instead you're lying on your back and somebody shoots you, the clothing is going to be against your chest. the fact that we know the clothing was two to four inches away is consistent with somebody leaning over the person doing the shooting and that the clothing is two to four inches away from the person firing. >> i want to bring in our legal analyst sunny hostin and mark

nejame. we've been watching all morning and hearing about the prosecution had his head in his hands and shaking his hands. first of all, is that true? do you think that's the way the prosecution took his testimony and secondly how are the jurors responding? >> i was in the courtroom. i didn't see the prosecutor's head in his hands. i didn't see that at all and i was looking at the table. the government has been writing notes. i did see him scratch his head but i didn't see despair. be jury is riveted. we had them at hello. let's see what he's got after hello. >> we share another thing in common. now, you're not saying -- you're

not testifying to what led up to the death? >> that's correct. >> you're not saying who attacked who whether it was george zimmerman who attacked trayvon martin or trayvon martin who attacked george zimmerman? >> that's correct. >> you can't testify as to who threw the first punch? >> that's correct, sir. >> fact, you can't testify whether there was a first punch throwing? >> that's correct, sir. >> you can't say whether it was trayvon martin defending himself or george zimmerman defending himself in terms of when this first started? >> that's correct, sir. >> you're really testimony is only focusing on at the time of the actual shot, correct? would that be accurate? >> that's correct, sir.

>> you're not stating here are you that everything george zimmerman stated at the statement you saw, the reenactment is the complete gospel truth? >> that's correct, sir. i'm just stating the nature of the gunshot wound being consistent with the account. >> were you aware, sir, that the defendant had given one, two, three, i believe at least four, maybe five statements prior to that one? >> i believe you had mentioned that to me, sir. >> i think i mentioned that in your deposition, right? >> yes, sir. >> is there a reason why you only focused on the reenactment as opposed to the original statement? >> i know what the reenactment said and he's holding to that account. what i'm saying is i evaluated

the objective in regards to the account being presented here. >> i apologize. were you finished? >> that's fine. >> let me know if i interrupt. you i told the court reporter i would be slow. if you can do the same thing, she needs to get everything down. make sure we don't talk over each other. >> yes, sir. >> am i correct in stating that you believe that the first statement is the most accurate statement? >> the first statement is usually more accurate than when given weeks or months later? >> okay. >> you get that in depositions. >> i got you. >> you mentioned your prior experience with the medical examiner, head of the medical examine's office in san antonio. >> that's correct. >> when you go to the alamo you

go down but you go down somewhat. >> it's about two levels you're on the river walk. >> you mentioned when you worked there for 15, 20 years? >> 25 years and ten months. >> didn't mean to cut it short. as a medical examiner it was important for you, was it not, to before you render an opinion make sure you understood all the facts? >> depends upon the case. some cases you want more information. everything is personal. >> i guess what i'm saying is when police bring you a case, the medical examiner and, that bring you the besiody and you'r doing the autopsy you want all the witnesses. you want to know what everybody educational sa else said to make sure it was consistent with the evidence. >> in this particular case you just focused on the defendant's

statement and i believe you said mr. good's statement, correct? >> i focussed on the defendant's statement because as you pointed out earlier in your cross-examination that's all that i'm concentrating on. is it his statement was consistent with what i found and what was found. the rest i can't say. >> right because you weren't provided with all the other statements of all the other witnesses, correct? >> again, i couldn't say -- i would have to disregard them in regards to the gunshot wound. the only one present there is mr. zimmerman. you have to go by what he's saying. >> i respectfully beg to differ. there was another person there in. >> there were a couple other witnesses. >> i mean respectfully the other person there is not among us

anymore? >> right. because he's the only one communicates. >> he can't speak because he's dead? >> yeah. >> okay. were you aware that the deceased, the victim in this case, trayvon martin was on the phone with lady? >> yes, sir. >> you didn't review her statement, did you? >> no, sir. >> when you worked with the medical examiner's office you in most cases attempted to find out all the information before you came to an opinion? >> it depends on what the case is about. often the information from the witnesses goes more towards the manner of death rather than the cause of death. in this case there's no question the manner of death. >> are you suggesting that in all the witnesses testimony should be disregarded?

>> for my purpose, not for the jury but for my purposes it's not important in my giving my opinion. >> in terms of your limited opinion in terms of the gunshot wound of how it could have occurred? >> right. the other statements are for the jury to evaluate, not me. >> you're not saying that we should just disregard what led up to this, whether somebody was following or whether somebody was attack. you're not saying that should be disregarded? >> that's not what i'm doing. the rest of that is the jury. that's why they're sitting there. >> i didn't mean to imply that you were saying that. i want to make sure the record was clear. >> no problem. >> mr. west asked you a few what we refer to as hypotheticals, what if, assuming this fact and in order to give an opinion when somebody gives you a

hypothetical, it has to be based on facts that are accurate and truthful, correct? >> hypothetical doesn't have to be true. it's just supposed this and this happened. >> we would be speculating or potentially speculating? >> it's not speculating. you're giving a presentation and asking what is this. >> okay. you would agree that at least the one statement that you relied on was his fourth or fifth statement that mr. zimmerman had given, the reenactment that he has a self-interest when talking to the police? >> yes, sir. >> one could even argue he has a bias in not telling the truth? >> one could argue that. i think that's your argument. >> you would also agree that if

his statement doesn't match the evidence then it's not the truth, correct? >> that's correct, sir. >> i guess in your, what you reviewed you're aware, were you not, that the only person armed out there was george zimmerman and not trayvon martin? >> yes, sir. >> okay. were you aware that he wasn't just armed with a firearm but that he was armed with a flashlig flashlight? >> yes, sir. there's a photograph of the flashlight in the photos. >> may i refer to the witness, your honor? >> yes, sir. >> this right here? may i approach the witness? >> i thought it was one of those

old heavy things. i wouldn't consider it a weapon. >> you think it wouldn't cause bruising like that. it's not heavy enough to be significant. >> you were not provided with the statement of jane syderka who described george zimmerman on top of the trayvon martin before the shooting? >> i was not provided with that statement, that's correct. >> you were not provided with the statement of saleen? >> no, sir. >> you mei think you stated oriy

a statement? >> yes, sir. >> were you ware he gave an additional sworn statement in which he describes not hearing this at all? >> no, sir. i don't think so. >> were you aware that he also stated under oath he did not hear any concrete at all? >> no, sir. >> i want to go back a little bit about your cv and your qualifications that mr. west talked about in terms of where you've been and that kind of stuff. you mentioned something about shooting animals. are we saying this was done

while the animals was alive? >> following federal regulations, yes. what you have to do is the animals have to be kept in a federally arrived area and then a veterinarian has to be present at the time of the experiments and the animals have to be anesthetised. s . >> how many times were they shot? >> i have to read the paper. it was a test to determine whether the testing method used by bomb examiners were valid. >> you determined it was, correct? >> yes, sir. >> you also mentioned that you testified all over the world really or part of the world? >> a couple of places. >> you testified for the government, state and defense in. >> correct. >> you were asked about several

cases you testified on behalf of, i think you testified in the -- you were nice enough to send me and mr. west your list of your cases at least within the last five years since you've been in private practice. is it seven years? >> six going on seven now. >> okay. i think you said over 50 times or so or do you recall the number? i don't think i said a number. most of them are civil cases. >> i think one of them you mentioned was the drew peterson ca case? >> that was criminal. >> also the spector? >> yes, sir. >> both cases you testified for

the defense. >> yes. >> how much are you getting paid? >> $400 an hour. >> i know you have to take a trip back. up to yesterday $2400. this is not exactly a complicated case. >> you mentioned that, i think you brought your notes with you, correct? >> yes. >> i guess most experts have their notes. what do you you it for to refresh your memory? >> because if you get a whole bunch of papers and you are only interested in one fact it's easier to put the fact on. >> like little cheat notes. i'm not saying anything improper. >> i know what you mean. >> just bullets you would be able to answer something. >> right, bullets.

>> i think you prepared a five or six page of notes that you provided to me this morning and to mr. west? >> yeah, five pages. it's five pages but it's double space, double sized so it's probably closer to ten or eight something like that. >> i think you also mentioned as part of your review of this case, obviously you couldn't be there when the autopsy was done so you reviewed the autopsy report, correct? >> yes. >> your opinion is in part derived from reviewing dr. bao's medical examiner report? >> that's correct. >> in terms of the photographs that were taken but in terms the findings, shot to the heart, correct? >> yes. >> there's no dispute about that. the victim in this case, trayvon martin was shot in the heart? >> that's correct, sir. >> did i understand you correctly that if you came over here and pulled my heart out that i could sit there and walk

and talk for how long? >> 10 to 15 seconds, yes. >> okay. if you pulled my heart out now i could keep talking and talking and talking for and just talking and talking without a heart? >> that's between ten and 15 seconds dependent on oxygen supply to the head. that is why some of the people will prefer shooting somebody in the head if it is a situation where the person has like a gun on somebody else. >> even though my heart is gone i would still feel pain or would i not? >> yeah. you would still feel pain. >> i think you stated that in this case you believe it was 12 to 15 -- 10 to 15 seconds?

>> no. what i said is i can't say. all i can say is that the minimum amount of time is between ten and 15 seconds. >> you said the maximum would be up to three minutes? >> i said that in all medical probability the individual would have no cardiac function after i would one to three minutes. three minutes is the outside. >> and by the way, you are not here to testify as to while this was going on who was yelling for help whether it was the victim or george zimmerman? you can't say right? >> no, sir. i am not testifying to that. >> you can't testify as to one of the statements that george zimmerman said where he said he pulled the gun from his holster and shot. >> i can just say that the

entries are consistent with how he shot him but not where he got the gun from. >> in terms of the shot being to the chest. >> right. >> in terms of how he claims he grabbed the gun while the other person is straddling him how he managed to somehow get the gun out and shoot the other person you can't say that happened that way or not. >> no. because you can't tell that by any scientific method. >> but george zimmerman said it happened that way. it doesn't mean it is true, right? >> as i said, sir, i can't testify to it so that's it. >> what happens -- it is physically impossible to do what he said happened? >> i would say it. >> you didn't get a chance to review that and you are not here to testify about whether he took the gun out of the holster that way or not? >> it is outside my ability to

make a conclusion like that. >> okay. you are here focusing on the gun and how close it was to the skin or to the sweat shirt, correct? >> that's correct. >> that is the bottom line. >> is it not true, sir, that one possibility as you stated is mr. martin was over george zimmerman, the defendant and he was like this. george zimmerman was on the ground and mr. martin is like this on top of him. >> some way over him. i don't know what angle it is. >> is it this angle? >> i can't tell you. the reason is because if you put your hand out since it rotates, if someone was over horizontally you could shoot that way. if they are at an angle they could shoot that way and get the path. all i can say is consistent with him being over. >> it can be consistent that

they were facing each other standing up. >> dr. vincent being cross examined by the prosecution. we are going to take a quick break and bring it back to you on the other side. my insurance company told me not to talk to people like you. you always do what they tell you? no... try it, and see what your good driving can save you. you don't even have to switch. unless you're scared. i'm not scared, it's... you know we can still see you. no, you can't. pretty sure we can... try snapshot today -- no pressure.

to prove to you that aleve is the better choice for him, he's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with him all day as he goes back to taking tylenol. i was okay, but after lunch my knee started to hurt again. and now i've got to take more pills. ♪ yup. another pill stop. can i get my aleve back yet? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. ♪ [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap.

let's go back live into the courtroom. doctor vincent de maio on cross. >> did he bump into it? >> where? the face or the back of the head? >> either one. >> the problem with tree branches are if you hit it in the face they're rough and you would expect an abrasion. >> didn't he have an abrasion on the face? >> no. he doesn't have abrasions. that is a contusion. the skin, if the skin is smooth and shiny. an abrasion is a scrape. >> did he have any abrasions at all? >> yes he did. >> finish, please. >> he had a small abrasion on

the right side of the nose. and then he had impact-type abrasions on the right area of the temple, the left temple. and on the back he had the two lacerations. >> i am struggling with you and i push you and you hit the tree. couldn't that happen that way? >> from the front? >> from the back, whatever. >> well, you would have to have a tree branch there and i didn't see any. >> you didn't? >> wait a minute. the other thing is if you just bump your head -- originally police officers carried wooden batons. the reason for wooden batons is they are much less dangerous than metal things. metal doesn't give. wood gives.

if you hit someone hard enough on the back of the head you are going to get a laceration. >> i try to simplify stuff as best as i when it comes to medical stuff. do you do gardening? >> my wife does. >> i do gardening. i have a bald head. i come up and there will be a bruise. >> i said there were abrasions back here. what i'm saying is, whatever. now i have lost my train of thought. >> you weren't aware and i am showing you dr. di maio there were trees back there. there was a struggle at some point near those trees. >> my understanding what you were saying is the trees were on the ground. >> i apologize. >> i saw the pictures and i saw the vertical trees. >> that's a possibility,

correct? some of the bruising. >> you could have one of the injuries from bumping against a tree. that is correct. >> and also some of the injuries that you described to the defendant, george zimmerman, could be from rolling around on the concrete and hitting the concrete as struggling and fighting. >> impact on the concrete. >> that is consistent with what you are saying, impacting the concrete. is that correct? i was curious what you mentioned about trayvon martin that you mentioned you described the injury to his left hand. what did you call it? >> abrasion. >> you were agreeing with that assessment, correct? >> he called it so i have to go with it. >> you saw the photograph, didn't you? >> yeah. i'm not sure if i did or not.

>> let's assume -- i can show it to you if you want. >> go ahead. i'm listening to you. >> assuming that is an abrasion you believe there may be additional injuries under his knuckles i think you said? >> no. those are two separate questions. one was whether it is an abrasion. i can't disagree with the individual who did the autopsy. the next question was if you punch somebody will you get bruises on your knuckles. and my answer was yes and no. >> you might and might not. >> you might or you might not. if you really suspect something they should have made a cup into the hand. >> and the person is not aalive. >> the person is alive you sit there and wait a day or so and then you will know whether there is heavy hemorrhage. >> sometimes you can hit something and not have any

hemorrhaging at all. >> right. what i'm saying is you can get it or you cannot. if you have it and you live a couple of days you will be able to see it. but the thing is if it is not there it is not important. >> i think -- let me understand what you are saying. you can hit somebody and not leave bruising on your knuckles, correct? >> that's correct. >> in other words, george zimmerman could have hit trayvon martin and not left bruising on his knuckles. >> that's correct, sir. >> you were asked a bunch of questions and were shown photographs of george zimmerman's head, right? >> yes, sir. >> all parts of his head and you gave your opinion as to what that is or not. would you not agree that somebody that is familiar with his head like a doctor that had treated him in the past or like a