tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN July 11, 2013 7:00pm-8:01pm PDT
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murderer is portrayed as the victim. welcome to america. tomorrow, closing arguments from the defense and george zimmerman's fate is in the hands of the jury. the very latest where you tell me what you have to say about this explosive case that's tomorrow night. that's all for tonight. anderson cooper starts right now. the prosecution makes its closing pitch. good evening again. welcome to another "360" special report "self-defense or murder, the george zimmerman trial." today, the lead prosecutor tried to bring home his case. the state of florida's case to the jury, that a wannabe cop fed up with crime in his neighborhood prejudged a teenager, pursued him and shot him dead. tonight, we'll look at the merits of that case and today's closing arguments. we'll focus on closing arguments from the defense and the impact of the judge's ruling allowing jurors to consider the lesser charge than just second degree murder, the charge of manslaughter. with me, the best legal panel around. first, the highlights from
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closing. here's our martin savidge. >> reporter: unlike his profanity laced opening, the closing began with more rev rant tones. >> a teenager is dead. he is dead through no fault of his own. he is dead because another man made assumptions. >> reporter: the prosecutor condensed the state's nine-day case into two hours, emphasizing the claim that george zimmerman actively profiled trayvon martin. >> he profiled him as a criminal. he assumed certain things, that trayvon martin was up to no good. and that is what led to his death. >> reporter: the state contends zimmerman is a wannabe cop who had grown increasingly frustrated by a series of break-ins by criminals who always managed to get away.
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his narrative paused just once for a recess and was interrupted at another point for an objection. the defense attorney mark o'hara says the state was wrongfully interpreting the law. the state often returned to its tactic of using zimmerman's own words against him. >> he does not want to admit at all that he's following him or chasing him or profiling him. >> reporter: while the jury sat for much of the delivery, zimmerman's parents in court for the first time as spectators since the trial started, looked at times incredulous as the state concluded for the day, a rare reaction from george zimmerman himself. >> the man who is guilty of second degree murder. thank you. >> reporter: earlier the court heard arguments on lesser charges that could be presented to the jury. it was no surprise the state asked for the lesser charge of manslaughter. but the defense was stunned when it wanted to add third degree felony murder, arguing the death
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of 17-year-old trayvon martin at the hands of george zimmerman was, among other things, child abuse. >> obviously, the information alleges that the defendant shot and killed the victim, that the victim was under the age of 18. and child abuse must be, according to the third degree felony murder, instructioned. >> reporter: the defense attorney was outraged. >> oh, my god. just when i thought this case couldn't get anymore bizarre. >> reporter: the debate brought more testy exchanges between west and judge debra nelson. >> i've already ruled and you have -- you continually disagree with this court every time i make a ruling. >> reporter: in the end, the judge ruled third degree felony murder would not be an option for the jury. >> i just don't think that the intentional part of that is there for the child abuse charge
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and that's not alleged in the information that way. and i just don't think that the evidence supports that. >> reporter: the pressure, now on mark o'hara to close out the defense's case friday before it heads to the jury. martin savidge, cnn, sanford, florida. >> high stakes ruling, props, a power point presentation. even the prosecutor skipping around the room at one point. just about anything that can happen in the courtroom did happen today. plenty to talk about with our panel. sunny hostin and jeffrey toobin. danny savalos and mark geragos. danny, let's start with you this time. that lesser charge that they wanted to suddenly bring in, that the prosecution sprung that don west literally said "oh, my god" about, did that stun you? >> i think it surprised everybody. it's one of those examples that is brilliant tactically by the
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prosecution, but it could be viewed as kind of dirty pool. here's why. felony murder is like a legal fiction. it's a policy crime, because all of our other forms of murders are on a continuum. they go from i meant to kill him, down to oopsy daisy. felony murder is an accidental killing that occurs during a felony. the problem here is that the prosecution technically they gave them notice under the facts a child was killed. but no one ever talked about felony murder. the felony here would be child abuse. i think that's a stretch. i think everybody was shocked and i had so much sympathy for don west. it's like when you wake up and you have that dream where you woke up late for school and you're missing the test. that has to be how he felt. >> jeff, can the prosecution just come up with this third degree murder?
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>> you can ask. and fortunately, the judge did the right thing here, which was exclude it. it's not part of the case. but manslaughter, which i think we've all assumed has -- would be a lesser included offense, is part of the case, and so there are only two options for the jury now. guilty or not guilty on second second murder. the same question on manslaughter. this was, i thought, dirty pool to ask for the felony murder child abuse. but the judge saw that and excluded it. >> mark, it goes to what we were discussing last night, which was at a certain point by the prosecution coming up with these alternative, do they start to look desperate? >> well, i think we argued last night that part of the problem in our justice system is that when prosecutors ask for these lesser includes, you are here as the defense, and you're trying to defend a case based on what
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they told you. remember, a criminal case is a lawsuit. the prosecutor is the plaintiff. the defense is representing the defendant. except it's not for money, it's for your liberty. and so when you file this lawsuit, and you're defending against it, you're not supposed to be ambushed. that's what this morning was. this morning was basically another of the prosecutorial ambushes. one of the reasons why it's totally unfair to have lessers, if the defendant doesn't agree to it, because the prosecution has all of the things going for it. they have unlimited budgets, and when they bring their force to bear against you, you should defend against it, but you shouldn't have to guess what they're doing. you shouldn't have to figure it out the morning you wake up before the closing arguments and say by the way, now we're going to charge child abuse. anybody in america think that's fair. if you heard this was happening in china or the old soviet union, you would get out amnesty
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international and say there's a human rights abuse. it happens here in america and we say it's what prosecutors do all the time. isn't that wonderful. >> i notice both former prosecutors rolling their eyes and smiling. sunny, why? >> of course. >> because it's a lesser included offense of what has been charged. and it's not as if, you know, the defense had no idea that the government was going to ask for lesser includeds. these are all enumerated in a book. >> but you would agree -- >> third degree murder with child abuse, sunny, you thought was coming up? you thought third degree murder -- >> it was a stretch. it was clever. but -- >> a stretch? >> but to argue that the prosecution hid the ball is ridiculous when everybody has the same information before them. >> one at a time.
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>> shouldn't civility mandate -- all counsel should relate that to each other. if you're going to charge somebody, you shouldn't argue that technically the facts support it. the attorneys should be placed on notice of it. they've had a year to prepare. felony murder is a very different kind of crime than your lesser included offense that. 's what was so unfair about it. felony murder is a different kind of defense than just a lesser included offense, which is all the same elements -- >> i was just going to interject one thing as to why this is a problem. when the prosecution says we're going to charge you with second degree murder and you're going to get bail at $1 million and they know or presumably they know that you're either going to have your liberty or not, and then they wait until the end of the case and say well, maybe we didn't make second degree murder but go for manslaughter or third
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degree felony murder with child abuse, which has in the manslaughter case a much lower bail, so he could have been out the whole time. doesn't that team somewhat unethical for a prosecutor to overcharge you, to go the entire case to not be able in their own mind to have the confidence to think they're going to convict you, and then the morning before you argue say oh, by the way, here's the other one, maybe you should have defended against this. this isn't a game. it is somebody's life. >> exactly. and manslaughter is a crime, a very serious crime. and if you are guilty of it, you should be convicted of it and put in prison. and that's what the prosecution is trying to do in this case. they are also trying to do -- >> then why charge murder? >> because they think both are covered by this conduct. which happens all the time. >> if think they both are, why can't they -- and i know it
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happens all the time. i get the argument. so why, if you believe -- and wouldn't you agree with me that a prosecutor's duty is to only seek convict shups on charges that you ethically can prove beyond a reasonable doubt? >> totally agree. >> if that is the case, and you thought you could prove the second degree, why should you be allowed, absent the defendant agreeing to it, why should you be allowed at the last minute to ask for something less? >> because the law provides for it. >> there's no silence here. >> the silence is deafening. >> the law provides for it. >> it's the right thing to do. if you are guilty of manslaughter, you should be convicted of it. >> that presupposes the whole trial process. you can't say if you are guilty, that's why we have the trial process to determine if you are guilty.
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so to say it justifies if you are guilty of a crime, to charge you with it, we don't know that yet. >> let's move on. sunny, you were in the court today for the closing arguments. you admit the prosecution had a lot to prove coming into the closing. how do you think they did? >> i think that they put the pieces of the puzzle together for this jury extremely well, anderson. it was passionate. it was convincing. the jury was watching everything he was doing. what was terrific, i think, about this closing argument is that they brought the focus back to trayvon martin, the victim here. they brought the common sense argument to this jury. how is it that a young boy, a teenager who was simply on a snack run did not get back home where he was lawfully allowed to be safely? how is that?
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because george zimmerman profiled him. he profiled him as a idecrimina. he made all these assumptions about trayvon martin that were wrong and he acted on those and in doing so, he killed him. i thought that was such a wonderful common sense argument that distilled what this case is about. this case is about whether or not someone who is not doing anything, who is acting completely unlawfully, should be able to be gunned down on a dark, rainy night. i think that came across. >> i want to play a clip from the closing argument. the prosecutor pulled out george zimmerman's gun for the jurors. let's watch. >> he's got this gun in this holster, and you'll see in a few minutes one of the things that he does, he demonstrates to the police where he had the gun. and it wasn't right here in the front, it was towards the back and it was hidden.
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he'll demonstrate to the police out there where it was. look at the gun. look at the size of this gun. how did the victim see that in the darkness? where was it? it wasn't outside. it was tucked in behind. >> mark, sunny said he did a good job of bringing it back to the reality of the death of trayvon martin. what did you think? >> at your 7:00, i think sunny characterized this as masterful. >> it still is. >> right, god forbid tomorrow when we come back after mcdreamy's rebuttal, because if i were sunny's husband i would file for divorce, because he's going to think it's the greatest thing she ever seen. i thought this was abysmal. i said it the last hour, when you have the law, you pound the
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law. when you have the facts, you pound the facts. when you don't have either, you pound the table. he was yelling the entire time. >> he was not. >> i understand emotion. we just played it. who are you going to believe, sunny or the tape? i watched the tape. it sounded to me like he was yelling. and it looked like -- >> the entire time, mark? >> yes. when he was screaming and he was yelling and doing all these antics. sunny, at a certain point, that's great. at a certain point, jurors are going to get their jury instructions and they want to know the law and understand what their job is. my experience has been that generally, jurors appreciate it when you walk them through the law and how the facts apply to the law. this argument that was made might have been great for tv and for the cheer leading squad. but i think for the jurors it falls flat. >> let me just -- >> the judge is going to
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instruct them on the law. this judge is going to instruct them on the law, and this prosecution did go over what the law was, but they went with the facts. and their theory of the case. and it was very effective. prosecutors do it all the time and they do it successfully and effectively, just like this prosecutor did. >> i want to play another clip where he brought out that dummy you would call it. >> i guess i might as well do what everybody else has done. do you see what he is saying now? he's saying that armpits. how does he get the gun out? armpits. how does he get the gun out?
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the truth does not lie. >> jeff, sunny says he was in the courtroom and didn't sound like he was yelling all that much. >> i thought he was louder than he needed to be, but i don't think that george zimmerman is going to get convicted or acquitted because of the volume of his voice. there is a good example of, you know, i was not entirely clear on whether that was persuasive. i guess the idea was, if trayvon martin was really on top of him that way, there is no way he could have reached the gun in his back. >> it goes back to something he had previously said several days ago about george zimmerman at one point told somebody that trayvon martin was up to his armpits. >> right. now, the other thing is he's not -- he is putting his finger on a weakness in the defense case here. i think the weakest argument the
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defense has in this case is that trayvon martin was reaching for the gun and trying to get the gun. >> which george zimmerman claimed in that videotape. >> correct. and that's implausible to me. when you look at where the gun was, when you look at the nature of their struggle, i think that's a weak claim and it may be something that zimmerman came up with after the fact to try to justify the shooting. it doesn't mean he's guilty, but i did think there were several good moments in the summations today, where that claim -- >> do you think that's the weakst claim the defense has? >> i think the weakest part the prosecutor made it into his strength today, and that's george zimmerman's past. you could equally look at it one way, hey, he's a wannabe cop, but you could take a step back and those same facts sound very complimentary. somebody that wants to be a police officer and starts their
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open neighborhood watch. these are normally facts to be admired. >> they have the testimony yesterday of the woman whose house was burglarized and george zimmerman went over, gave her a lock, offered her help. you could look at that as it's creepy, or he's a nice neighbor. >> i can see both sides. both sides have argued each position. you can step back and say here's a guy involved in the community. on the other hand, you can read into it this guy was a little too interested. i thought it was really interesting how the prosecutor took that, he addressed that and hammered it home and demonstrated that the same facts put through a different prism make george zimmerman sound really creepy. >> everyone, stick around. we're going to be playing the key moments, the best moments, the worst moments from today chosen by our panel. the best moments next. let us know what you think. we'll be right back.
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zimmerman trial could fill a few hundred pages from courtroom moments from today alone. tonight we asked the panel to pick the best and worth moments from today. here is the best moment according to jeffrey toobin. >> a teenager is dead. he is dead through no fault of his own. he is dead because another man made assumptions. that man assumed certain things. he is dead not just because the man made those assumptions, because he acted upon those assumptions, and unfortunately, unfortunately because his assumptions were dead, trayvon benjamin martin no longer walks
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on this earth. >> so that was the moment jeffrey toobin picked as the most effective. we're back with our panel, jeff and sunny hostin, danny savalos and mark geragos, all of whom have their own picks. you thought that was the best because the prosecutor really kind of brought it back home to what this case is all about. >> exactly. it's a reminder of why this case captured the nation's attention a year and a half ago. how can we live in a country where a 17-year-old boy goes to guy skittles and iced tea, comes home to watch the nba all-star game and is killed. how could this happen? someone who is doing nothing wrong, who wasn't carrying a weapon, who wasn't drunk or bothering anybody, that's -- and obviously the question is was he bothering somebody? that's what the defense is going to say. but i thought capturing that rather than getting in the weeds where we have spent so much of the last three weeks was -- >> you think they did get into the weeds where they talk about
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witnesses from last week. mark, you've been very critical of the prosecution from day one. you could not come up with one best moment in the prosecution's closing argument? >> not one. not one. i thought it was abysmal. like i say, i can hardly wait to watch sunny's mcdreamy tomorrow, because i'm sure this will be the greatest closing argument since clarence daro was resuscitated. i was watch thing and i have no idea what trial i'm watching. apparently that last tape you played, he wasn't yelling. the one before that was not yelling, so i'm going to get my hearing checked. apparently everything else i watched is not what i'm watching. so i'm going to start believing what sunny tells me and i'm going to start ignoring everything that i watch on tv. >> i don't know. that clip we just showed, i didn't hear yelling. did you? >> wasn't that the very beginning. he was just getting revved up.
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give him 45 seconds and he started going. >> sunny -- >> you're right, sunny. whatever you say. there's reality and then there's sunniville. >> let's play sunny's pick. >> the defendant assumed the victim didn't belong, didn't he? that the victim was committing or about to commit a burglary. he assumed and he profiled the victim as a criminal. he assumed that the victim was one of those that always got away. he assumed also that he was an "f"-ing punk. and that the victim was going to get away before the police arrived. >> sunny, for you that was a key moment because it brought it back to the core of this case?
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>> exactly. because i think you have six women on the jury. five of them are mothers. and it shakes i think your very core as a persona someone could see your child walking down the street and make all of these false assumptions just because of the way that he looks. and i think it was really important for the prosecution to hone in on that, because that is what is wrong fundamentally about this case. trayvon martin was doing nothing wrong yet he was profiled. he was followed. he was targeted. and i think it really resonated in the courtroom. >> danny, for you the moment was when the prosecutor brought out the skittles and the drink. let's play that. >> trayvon martin, he was there legally. he hadn't broken in or sneaked in or trespassed. he was there legally. he bought skittles and some kind of watermelon or islesed tea or
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whatever it's called. that was his crime. >> danny, for you, why was that so effective? >> i've said it before, it sort of backs up mark's theory, that if you don't have the facts or the law, you pound your fist. and here's why. i said it before, the skittles and the iced tea, i think we associate those with kids. it's things kids eat for fun. if he had bought something less interesting, wind shield wiper fluid, we may not be talking about it at all and the prosecutor wouldn't be showing it. it's an example of the prosecution using something that isn't relevant to the case or to any of the charges and using that as a prop and an effective one because of the mothers on that panel, they're going to think about their own kids who eat skittles. if he had been walking out of there with a bottle of win decision and paper towels -- >> it's a gun versus skittles and diet soda. >> answer luptly. >> the low lights for the
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welcome back. tonight we're talking an't the high points and the low points for the prosecution's closing argument. we'll do the same tomorrow for the defense. before the break, we talked about what our panel thought were the best moments for the prosecution. now it's time for the worst moments. here's the worst misstep in the closing as chosen by jeffrey toobin. >> my point is, that there was a fight there. there was a struggle. at some point it appears, based on the evidence that the defendant was on top, at some point the victim was on top. wrestling, struggling.
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but why did it occur? >> why? >> because it's important who is on top. and it's important -- this is a critical issue in the case. it's over. the evidence is all in. and he can't say who was on top when? who started things? that i thought was indicative of a real weakness in the prosecution's case. >> sunny, it does remind us of what we were talking about yesterday, the idea that the prosecution sort of changed their story about who was on top. they started off the trial staying one thing that george zimmerman was on top, and then just yesterday they said well, maybe trayvon martin was on top but he was pulling away. >> well, the prosecution wasn't saying that. the witnesses were saying that, anderson. you have two witnesses that are saying i saw who i believe to be george zimmerman on top, and you've got one other witness, john good, saying i believe that it was -- >> they knew that going into the trial. why start off by saying
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definitively it was george zimmerman on top? >> well, because at points george zimmerman was on top, and at points trayvon martin was on top. this was a fluid altercation. what's most important is, how did it start? it started because of the false assumptions that george zimmerman made. and that's what i -- and i think what's wonderful about the prosecution is being very transparent about the fact that there was clearly an altercation but that different people saw different things and it was a fluid situation. i think that's a good thing for the prosecution. >> mark, why wouldn't you -- if you know it's going to be described as a fluid situation, why would you start off the trial saying it's a fluid situation, not saying that george zimmerman was on top? >> because i think as i've said all along, they didn't want this case initially. the police didn't want this case initially. i think contrary to what
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everybody else says, i think the reason this gained traction because in any other situation without a cop who is doing the shooting and killing somebody, they arrest first and ask questions later. and i think that the prosecution has been on their heels the entire time, because they didn't know what to make of this case. because it was forced upon them. i also think that there's a certain prosecutorial ski schizophren schizophrenia. they keep saying on one hand this 17-year-old and they keep calling him a boy, and i agree with them. except these are the same prosecutors who until the ums supreme court got involved, used to call 17 and 16-year-olds and 15-year-olds adults and tried to murder them by way of the death penalty. so they weren't boys when they were committing a crime. but when they're involved now, they are boys. so there is a certain amount of
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inversion of the usual roles in this case. and we talked about that for a while. the prosecutors i think are in unfamiliar territory and that's why in my opinion they've been so abysmal. it's almost like they are desperate defense lawyers trying to defend a position. >> danny, you thought one of the worst moments is when the prosecutor formed on zimmerman forming the neighborhood watch. let's watch that. >> those actions weren't anything sinister or terrible or evil of or ill will. those were actions that occur throughout the united states and many cities unfortunately. where crimes occur in a neighborhood, and people get together and form neighborhood watches or other associations to deal with it. there's nothing sinister or wrong with that. >> isn't part of the prosecution's case, aren't they arguing that there is something sinister about george zimmerman's reasons for doing this? >> exactly. they're trying to hedge their
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bets. they're inconsistent with their own position, which is if they're arguing creepy guy forms neighborhood watch and is too interested in the neighborhood, it's hard to say there's nothing wrong with forming a neighborhood watch. everything until now. you can hear him saying that's what he did, that's okay. if it's okay, why are you arguing it? why is it part of your argument. the jims of your argument is, this case began months ago, when george zimmerman formed this hatred for people in his neighborhood breaking into places. then if that's that relevant, why are you almost apologizing. it felt like he was saying not that there's anything wrong with neighborhood watches. just this guy's neighborhood watch. i thought it was inconsistent with their theory of the case. >> mark, your moment wasn't really a moment per se, but a series of moments where the prosecutor used, and these are your words, a shrill voice. i want to play one example of him talking about george zimmerman being fed up with crime in his community.
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>> he was sick and tired of it. but the law doesn't say okay, you know, take the law into your own hands. oh, i'm sorry, i got the wrong guy. i'm sorry, i thought he was a criminal. tracy martin, sabrina fallton, i made a mistake. i didn't realize trayvon martin was minding his own business. i am terribly sorry. the law doesn't say that. >> obviously you didn't see a dramatic effect to help the prosecutor? >> seriously, you're asking me that question? >> it was just a throw away to allow you to opine. >> we really don't need to get there. sltz we have 22 more minutes to fill. i'm doing the best i can here. >> i guess the fact -- i get the
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fact -- i don't know. sometimes it's obvious -- >> wait a second, why was that moment so terrible? i didn't get it. i didn't think it was so great. but why so terrible what the prosecutor did? >> would you do that? would you do that in a closing argument? >> do what? >> do an imitation of phyllis diller without her wig on? i thought it was disrespectful to the victim's family. i don't understand what trials we watch or people are watching. this was ridiculous. >> why didn't the rest of us see that that was a phyllis diller imitation? >> because she wasn't wearing her wig. >> to mark's point about yelling, if you are yelling at someone repeatedly, people tend to shut you out. >> absolutely. >> unless there's a great modulation in your voice and it's up and down, if you were
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just at a steady stream of yelling, after a while -- >> i tweeted that during the argument. i've been joking with mark about all his criticism. i did think that he was, you know, at a too high a pitch for too long. but that's better than being boring and uninterested. >> but you look at mark o'hara -- >> obviously there should be a middle ground. >> we'll see mark o'hara's final argument tomorrow. but he's very steady, but seems precise. you've called him masterful. >> i think he has a wonderful courtroom demeanor. you know, i have to say he said to you last night in your interview he doesn't write things down. he just goes in the moment. you know, tough to talk for three hours just being in the moment and if he is sitting
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there leafing through yellow pads, which is something lawyers do that i hate, i don't think it will be very effective. >> mark, mark o'hara was saying he's lived with this case for a year and a half and doesn't need to write it down at this point. he knows what he wants to say. >> i will tell you something. i have a very small circle of friends that are almost all trial lawyers, and great trial lawyers. the great -- the guys who are the greatest at it can get up and they can just -- having lived the case, they can emote and talk from the heart and they get up there and will connect with the jury. that's what they do. they're having a conversation, albeit one sided, and they're going to explain and walk the jury through why it is that the jury should listen to them, number one, should take their client's position, should walk in their client's shoes. and if they're good at it, they should never, ever be looking at a note or have note cards or a
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teleprompter or anything else. they have lived with the case. they have to convey that to the jury. >> i want to get your take on how the judge is doing in this trial, judge debra nelson. we're taking a closer look, coming up. i'm the next american success story. working for a company where over seventy-five percent of store management started as hourly associates. there's opportunity here. i can use walmart's education benefits to get a degree, maybe work in it, or be an engineer, helping walmart conserve energy. even today, when our store does well, i earn quarterly bonuses. when
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throughout the zimmerman trial, judge debra nelson has been tough and shown herself to be a no nonsense judge who has repeatedly called out both sides. tonight i want to take a closer look at how the judge has laid down the law. >> reporter: judge debra nelson hardly notices the cameras in the courtroom.
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she's too busy putting the attorneys in their place. >> let's stop in right now. i have told counsel before first of all, no one talks over the other. please don't go off focus here. no, no. >> reporter: her style may be a turnoff to some, but to cnn legal analysts, it's a breath of fresh air. >> this case could have easily unraveled. this case could have easily imploded. the judge is going to have no part of it. she's going to let everybody know who is in charge and it's going to be her. >> reporter: judge nelson wasn't originally chosen to hear this case. she replaced another judge who the defense claimed had a bias against zimmerman. she's within serving on the bench in florida's 18th judicial circuit since 1999. before that, she practiced law in orlando. she earned her law degree from the south texas college of law. judge nelson tends to agree more with the state, which is not
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uncommon for a judge. something that was on display again today, as she clashed with defense attorney don west over jury instructions. >> i am not giving that instruction. and you can -- >> by not instructing the law of this jury properly on the law -- >> you continually disagree with this court every time i make a ruling. if i have made a mistake in this case, you will appeal. this is my ruling on this issue. >> reporter: but it was this moment after a hearing late into the night that will forever be cemented in trial watcher's minds. >> i am not physically able to keep up this pace. it's 10:00 at night. we started this morning. weekends, depositions at night. >> reporter: she simply decided it was time to go. she may not be warm and fultzy, but judge debra nelson is always on her game. >> when there's a difficult
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argument, she says i'm going to study it. that night she did and came to court prepared. >> reporter: prepared and ready to rule as she thought the law dictated. randi kaye, cnn, new york. >> joining me once again, sunny hostin, mark geragos, jeffrey toobin and danny savalos. mark, last night you mumbled under your breath something, danny was talking about sort of like good guy judges and how often their courtrooms are a mess. and you mumbled something like, they're the worst. like you like judges who lay down the law. >> i couldn't agree more. when i talk about good guys, you can control your courtroom without having to be a kerrmujen. but if the judge knows how to control the courtroom, cuts the lawyers off when they talk too much and they do it with the defense and the prosecution, i've got no problem with it.
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it's the only way to operate a courtroom. you cannot just let lawyers take control of the courtroom. it's the judge's court. they should step up and nothing drives me more insane than to be in a trial, have a judge make a ruling and then it always happens with prosecutors. they're like little kids when you take their toys away. but your honor, your honor. and the judge will listen to them. i hate that. the best judges are like this who cut you off. i do surprise surprise disagree with sunny. when she -- >> what? wait a minute, what? you disagree with sunny? i'm stunned. >> stop it, stop it. i thought that was great. >> i thought it was great, too. it was 10:00 at night. >> i didn't like that. i mean, she was working so hard. the key thing about this case is she has a sequestered jury. this jury is away from their families, stuck in a hotel, and she is working all the time, including to 10:00 at night so that the jury can work a full
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day every day, and get this trial over with. >> when she closed at 10:00 at night, she said we're starting at 8:00 in the morning. she said we have a sequestered jury, i don't want them out there for an hour. so she always has them in the back of their mind. >> we've got to take another quick break. we'll be right back with some final thoughts.
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defense both to murder and to manslaughter. he's got to fight the compromised verdict. i bet he's fairly confident they're not going to find zimmerman guilty of murder, but he has to be very worried about manslaughter? >> danny? >> those mandatory minimums are bad news for george zimmerman and this jury doesn't get to know that. if they split the baby, if they use solomon wisdom and give him a lesser charge, that ain't going to work for zimmerman. he's got to avoid that. mark o'hara has that in his mind tonight and he's going to hammer home self-defense. >> i was amazed in the state of florida just for showing a gun is automatic ten years. sunny, what does the defense have to do tomorrow? >> listen, they've got to change the narrative that this jury went to sleep with. the jury went to sleep with what the prosecutor said today. so they have to change the focus and the narrative to self-defense. i think that's going to be a difficult thing to do, but that
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is what they need to do. >> mark? >> remember, because they're the defense, this is their only time to argue. so not only do they have to go through and lay out self-defense, and lay out how self-defense negates the two counts that he's facing, but they have to anticipate what the prosecution is going to do. supposedly in theory, the prosecution's only supposed to rebut what the argument is by the defense. everybody knows that most prosecutors always lie in wait to sandbag you in the rebuttal. so he has to anticipate whatever arguments they're going to make in the rebuttal by sunny's boyfriend, mcdreamy, am they're going to have -- >> i'm going to start calling you mcdreamy, mark, because i think you're jealous. >> we've got to leave it there. good note to end on. >> i'm not jealous. >> thank you. let's get caught up with some of the other stories we're following. >> investigators have released a
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horrifying photo of part of the superior of the asiana airlines jet that crashed on saturday in san francisco. this area of the cabin destroyed by flames. they report that the cockpit voice recorder shows the crew called for a go around, that's an aborted landing twice in the final seconds before impact. we also know the panic on the tarmac as passengers called 911 pleading for help. >> i was just in a plane crash. there are a lot of people that need help. we have people over here who weren't found and they're burned really badly. we're trying to keep her alive. venezuela is waiting for an answer from edward snowden. venezuela has yet to receive a response on their offer of asylum made last week. stocking hit another record high today. the dow rose 169 points to close at 15,460, breaking a former
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record set in may. the s&p 500 also closed as a record high. >> thank you very much. that does it for this special edition. join us tomorrow night for more on the george zimmerman trial and all the day's other stories. thanks for watching. age class se is only 14 students. our financial tools help you make smart choices about how to pay for school. our faculty have, on average, over 16 years of field experience. we'll help you build a personal career plan. we build programs based on what employers are looking for. our football team is always undefeated. and leading companies are interested in our graduates. we'll even help you decorate your new office. ok. let's get to work. a friend under water is something completely different. i met a turtle friend today. avo: whatever you're looking for, expedia has more ways to help you find yours.
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good evening, everyone. jurors in the zimmerman trial have a lot to sleep on tonight or perhaps a lot to keep them awake. closing arguments. the prosecutor seeking to make trayvon martin almost a living presence in their eyes as he led them through the state's theory of his killing. a frightened teenager, he said, pursued and killed by a wannabe court. we'll focus on closing arguments tomorrow for the defense, and the impact of judge debra nelson's ruling allowing jurors to consider a lesser charge. of course, the best legal panel around. we begin by catching you up b
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