ariel castro in court tomorrow after saying this just four days ago. >> my addiction to pornography and my sexual problem has really taken a toll on my mind. >> could anything he says take my difference? plus, george zimmerman stopped by police with a gun. also, the latest on this arkansas escaped prisoner still on the run. o.j. simpson's courtroom victory. i'm talk to kim goldman. plus, a man who spent his life on the wrong side of the law.

i want to begin with ariel castro said to make a statement tomorrow. pamela brown spoke to castro's sister today and joins me now. pamela, i poured through the new documentation that's been released this evening, very, very disturbing revolutions. much of it based on diaries from the three poor women held captive by ariel castro. tell me about that. >> reporter: yeah, that's right. you remember all the counts, more than 900 counts ariel castro faced and specific with the dates. we're learning that prosecutors actually used these women's diaries to help them document all the different charges. according to these documents that the prosecutor's office released today, the women over the past ten years got through their time in captivity by keeping diaries and writing about abuse they experienced and their dreams of getting out some

day and seeing their families, by writing about being locked in darkrooms. so really disturbing details and we're not expected to see what those diaries say in court tomorrow during castro's sentencing, although we could be seeing some physical evidence, as well as photos. in fact, it's supposed to be a pretty ugly tomorrow with some of the evidence that we could be seeing, and very dramatic proceeding tomorrow, piers? >> despite all this, you spoke to his sister, who paints a very different picture on him and thinks the truth will out. >> reporter: i did. we know now that castro is expected to speak in court tomorrow. that's according to his attorney and we're hearing from his sister that he's going to be explaining his life and perhaps giving another side of the ariel castro that we know from all the disturbing details we've learned about. but we know that he could be making an apology. that's according castro's attorney. he could be remorseful.

last friday he didn't show remorse at all. his attorney said it's not overly preplanned, it could be a rather lengthy statement tomorrow. >> do we expect either victim to attend or make a statement themselves? >> reporter: well, piers, i'm learning from sources that one of the three victims will actually be making a statement here tomorrow, an impact statement. i should say she will likely be making a statement. of course, she could change her mind between now and then and has every right to do so. we're hearing from sources that will be michelle knight. this could be somewhat surprising to some because michelle night experienced the worst abuse over the past few years according to police reports and sources but this could be empowering for her and therapeutic to go up and make an impact statement and face her captor head on. we'll have to wait and see if that happens. the other two are expected to be

represented. it is supposed to be dramatic. >> in the end, we don't expect he'll receive anything but a very, very lengthy prison sentence and unlikely to ever come out again, right? >> reporter: right, this is not discretionary. he agreed to life in prison without parole plus 1,000 years. that wouldn't change. basically what the sentencing is tomorrow, piers, is a way to put it on the record. put the charges he's facing on the record so that there is no way that he could ever leave prison ever again. so his fate is pretty much set in stone at this point. >> it will be a fascinating day tomorrow. pamela brown, thank you very much indeed. i want to bring in the reporter that covered this case for nine years and inside gina dejesus' house. lydia, welcome back to the show.

now obviously a big day tomorrow -- >> thank you. >> a day in many ways i guess for potential closure in the sense this may be the last we see of ariel castro once he's done and dusted and sent off to jail. what is the family reaction? you've obviously been close to gina dejesus, what is their reaction? >> over the weekend, her dad was doing a walk this he has done every year trying to find victims who have been kidnapped, who have been missing, so he's on this walk and he was asked about, you know, hey, the sentencing is coming up, how do you feel? he just basically said my family needs to heal. we need to heal. we need to move on. we need to bond as a family. and nancy, gina's mom has told me she forgives him, but he does deserve to be punished. so obviously, they are looking for closure in this case. >> i mean, when you read the detail of these documents that have come out. obviously much of it we knew in broad brush strokes.

when you actually read the detail. i spent half on hour reading it, it is unbelievably appalling for a decade or more. it's very, very difficult to see how they can make any kind of quick recovery from this. >> well, surprisingly if you went to the last part of the document, there was a doctor on there that said surprisingly that all three women were in good spirits. they were healing. although, it will be a long process that he couldn't believe how courageous they were. when i read this document, i was sick to my stomach because when gina first disappear, nancy, gina's mom always said my daughter would never run away. she would never get in a car with a stranger, somebody who knew her took her and you read this and clearly, she got in a car with a family friend, just like the mom predicted.

>> from all you know from both gina eastside and her family and what you've heard from others, do any of these young women who have been through this awful ordeal have any kind of sense of what they call the stockholm syndrome where they feel a strange affection to their captor? >> well, if you listen to any of the court hearings from last week, the prosecutor did come out and say there was some stockholm syndrome and in the report released today he believes all three girls are experiencing that. on the other hand, i know gina has an incredible family with a huge support system, so does amanda berry. michelle night, she is just -- has been incredible through all this and she as journey by herself, but i believe the other two families will be assisting her. so if they are suffering that, i don't doubt that it will take awhile to get -- excuse me, to get through it, that they would actually be okay because of the

support system they have. >> there is a statement, a handwritten note from michelle knight to the lead investigator, dear commander saucer, officers and staff, you don't know how much aappreciate your work collecting cards and gifts for me and the other girls. i'm overwhelmed by the amount of thoughts, love and prayers expressed by complete strangers. it's comforting. life is tough. but i'm tourer. just when the caterpillar thought the world was over, she became a butterfly. a very moving letter there. >> the thing we don't know about michelle night. we didn't know she was missing. we knew gina was missing because her mother kept searching and amanda berry's mother kept searching and died but her mother was never serving for her. she was the one that was doing the doctoring and if gina was getting in trouble, she was stepping in to protect her.

she became almost their protector. so she is an amazing woman and resilient to all ends. >> she also from those documents seems may well have saved the life of amanda berry's young baby. thank you very much indeed. >> you're welcome. another crime story, we showed you this video, a daring jailbreak caught on tape, derrick estell held on charges including aggravated robbery, burglary, theft, breaking and entering and not surprisingly fleeing. he got an accomplice to district deputies. he is armed, dangerous and aggressive. a man that escaped from prison three times. michael hues, what do you make of this video when you saw it? >> well, i believe that the deputy made a very vital mistake. this guy was a violent felon. he should not have been left alone.

he should not have been crouching with deputies not seeing him. he should have been standing up, facing the wall, and he should have had shackles on. he knew -- this guy knew there was a security breach here. so he had planned this. this wasn't a telephone call to call somebody. that was to get in that position to get out of there as quick as he could -- >> yeah, it does seem quite extraordinary you got this guy they are describing as extremely dangerous and there he is sitting there casually on the phone, a couple feet from this desk, which he can just dive straight over. i mean, it was a most extraordinary breach of security, one you would never imagine would be possible in these places. >> well, what happens, they get to be friends with the guards, so they will say to the guard can i use this phone instead of going back and the guard will let them. that's what i think happened here. the guard let him use the phone being nice. he probably just got done with a visit or seeing his attorney. he was on his way back. he knew he would get out.

again, he should have had shackles on rs piers. he was a violent criminal. what was he doing in that area with one guard, no shackles? he should have been standing looking at the wall while talking. >> a quick question about ariel castro castro. i know you got quite strong views on this. what kind of life will ariel castro face in prison given the scale of his behavior? >> oh, my prediction there will be a conspiracy within the inmates to get him. it will be hard to get him because he will be in solitary confinement lock up. he'll be 23 hours a day in his cell and out. where they will get him and most people they can't get to is poison. there is a lot of people there and the person that gets castro is going to be the hero in jail. piers, i'm not a violent person, but if i saw castro right there and i had the opportunity and i was in prison, i'd be on him real quick. >> michael hues, thank you very much. george zimmerman is back in

the news tonight. the man found not guilty of murder was stopped this weekend for speeding in northern texas and had a gun with him. police in texas released dashcam video of the incident. take a look at this. >> i'm going to go back and check you routinely. the reason you were stopped is because of speed. i need you to slow down and as long as you don't have any warrants, we'll ket you loose with a warning. go ahead and shut your glove comportment and don't play with your firearm, okay? >> zimmerman family released a statement tonight saying our family receives death threats on a daily basis. we'll take our security and privacy seriously. despite the truth coming to

more of this later in the show. when we come back, another big crime story. a courtroom victory for o.j. simpson. why ron goldman's sister kim says it's unsettling. '

they told me what was expected of me here, and i gave them my word that i would try to be or would be the best prisoner they have had here, and i think for the most part i've kept my word on that. >> he won parole but not his freedom. granted parole on some charges from the 200 8 robbery conviction. simpson might be released sometime soon. kim goldman joins me now. what is your reaction to this? o.j. simpson is facing a long time behind bars and will be out

within four years. >> yeah, well, we always knew the option of parole was coming. i think i just wasn't prepared. the reality of it is different than the dreaming of it. so, you know, this is due process, and as much as i would love to see him, you know, brought away in there that may not be what happens, and it's hard to hear his voice, it's hard to see him on the screen. i know that he could be walking amongst us again in a couple years. >> does that make you feel fearful to you and your family? do you still see him as a potential danger and threat to you? >> not in a physical way. i never really had any feeling of danger from him. it's really more the emotional torment of him being able to cause as much problems he does in the high profile case.

every move he makes garners media attention. it's that emotional torment that is a stressor for us. >> the nevada parole bored said it reached it's decision on insurance tug l institutional programs and they call him a model inmate. how did you feel when you heard that description? >> well, you know, i guess the bailiffs are doing a good job there in the correctional facility that he's not being able to commit more crimes. the truth is i would imagine he would be the mayor of the jail and it's bugged me, but i don't know. i mean, i guess if that's part of the criteria to determine if somebody is eligible for parole, that's what it is. i have to respect and trust the judgment of the parole bored but emotionally it doesn't make me happy. >> we had a report about ariel castro, this appalling kidnapping holding these women

captive for so long, a very, very different story than anything you've been involved with but the similarity, i guess, is how you get over any kind of horror, any kind of atrocity. what advice would you give these young women that have been through a decade of held like this? >> i was getting teary eyed reading the story of the letter from michelle knight. those women have a long road ahead of them but sounds like they are surrounded by a lot of love and support and resources. the impact statement is powerful. i'm jealous i never got the opportunity to do that. they will forever be connected with ariel castro and as many times as he gets brought up in the news it will be a reminder to them and i hope they find comfort in knowing the country is supporting them. victims and survivors are going through this. we have to be sensitive to what all go through on a daily basis

and there is no way of knowing how it will impact the daily being, so. >> if you had been able to do a victim statement to o.j. simpson, what would you have said to him? >> oh, you'd have to bleep me for the next 45 minutes. you know, we wrote a book, our family, a hand full of years ago. his name is ron and each of us wrote what we would have said in a victim impact statement, had we been given the choice. he destroyed our life and my brother's future and the hopes and dreams he was entitled to. that changed the landscape of our family. i recent him for that. i hate him for that and i wish him nothing good and so, again, if he is granted parole, i hope he lays low and i hope he stops commenting crimes, but if he does, i hope they lock him back up. until then, we'll watch the clock and, you know, try to keep our heads down and stay focused on the important things, which

are victim's issues and doing good work in the world. the top secret program that can capture your every move online. nsa surveillance, glen greenwald who broke the story today joins me next. [ man ] look how beautiful it is. ♪ honey, we need to talk. we do? i took the trash out. i know. and thank you so much for that. i think we should get a medicare supplement insurance plan. right now? [ male announcer ] whether you're new to medicare or not, you may know it only covers about 80% of your part b medical expenses. it's up to you to pay the difference. so think about an aarp medicare supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. like all standardized medicare supplement insurance plans, they help cover some of what medicare doesn't pay. i did a little research. with a medicare supplement plan, you'll be able to stay with your doctor.

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♪ your ticket to a better night's sleep ♪ i sit at my desk had the authority to wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge or the president if i had a personal e-mail. >> edward snowden speaking to the guardian. new revelations about a program.

glen greenwald is reporting that allows nsa analysts to search history of internet, email without authorization. bombshell revelation in ways, one you could argue could have caused more problems than your original stories. what -- why is it is serious? tell me about the ex key score in a simple way that explains why you think this is such a serious situation. >> first of all, piers, the database is that this program accesses is storing 40 billion internet records every 30 days, ed essentially trying to score into it's systems all e-mails, all online chats, all internet browsing that it can possibly get it's hands on. an incredible power to vest in the state. but then on top of that, the program is designed to, as it

says, collect quote nearly everything a user does on the internet. it allows an analyst sitting at his or her desk with no oversight be able to enter an e-mail address, ip address, use keywords and then pull up a content of e-mails, people's browsing history, what websites they have gone to and google searches and microsoft word documents, ed essentially the entire range of activities people engage in on the internet, it's intended to be a spying tool and that's what it's been constructed into. >> now i want to play what jay carney at the white house said about this in today's briefing. >> allegations of wide spread, unchecked analyst access to nsa collection data are false. access to all of nsa's tools is limited to only those personnel who require access for their assigned tasks. and there are multiple technical manuel and supervisory checks and balances within the system to prevent those who don't have

access from achieving that access. >> my reaction to that is it's all very well but edward snowden is not high ranking and he managed to easily access this stuff so by default you would say that can't be true. it must be loads of people that can access this stuff. >> right, edward snowden was not only able to access it but able to. he was trained how to access the program which is why he had the documents he gave us and tell us about the program. you're talking about thousands and thousands of people, not just people employed directly for the nsa but people employed at private contractors deployed to the nsa like mr. snowden and what is most disturbing is they sit at their desk and there is no presearch approval process, not even a supervisor looks at what they are doing, let alone in court which means they are completely free to engage in all kinds of searches.

there are legal limits what they can do when it involves a u.s. person, although lots of u.s. persons in these databases but no technical, rebust auditing process and there is all kinds of evidence emerging because of abuse. there is lots of proof in history if you allow this surveillance without limits, it will be wildly abused and i think that's why even in washington these stories are making such an impact. >> glen, stay with me. i want to bring in james risen, a prize winning journalist for "the new york times" a federal appeals court ruled he must testify in the case against jeffrey sterling, charged of leaking secrets to disrupt iran's nuclear weapons program. he can't discuss specifics of that case and jeffrey toobin. james risen, what do you make of his latest exposure by edward snowden in terms of the kind of documents we're talking about?

>> it's really an interesting story and adds to what is developed that shows the extent of the nsa's growth as a, you know, kind of the infrastructure of the state that's grown really since 9/11. i think this is all an extension of what began under the bush add menstruation and then was kind of coded in the amendments act in 2008 and the patriot act and you're seeing kind of growth from there, you know, all directions of the exploitation of what they call in silicon valley, big data. >> jeffrey toobin, how shocked should people be because on the one hand, the public will go oh my god this is outrageous and at the same time somebody's wallet with credit cards and shopping details, anything online, if you think about it you're giving up a lot of information that we should be shocked about now.

>> and things are read. if i send you a g mail from my personal account to your personal account and i say, you know, let's play golf this weekend. google will read that e-mail and try to sell me golf clubs. so, you know -- >> automatically. >> automatically. a lot of what has gone on -- >> the difference here is that you have authorized analysts, and according to glenn greenwald, thousands potentially, who can do more than that -- >> can i just -- i would like to ask glen a question about that program. is this just for domestic e-mails or international e-mails or both? >> both. the reason is is that under the law in order for the nsa to ease drop and target an american citizen for surveillance, they need first to go to the fiezer court and get approval and the fiezer court gives it to them. when somebody talks to somebody

outside the united states, that activity is accessible by the nsa without a warrant and on top of that, the nsa makes mistakes. it's difficult to know the origin. so purely domestic calls get put into this database as well. so as the acl said in our piece, huge numbers are swept up by what the nsa calls foreign surveillance -- >> but i think glen -- >> i mean, this is an important clarification that this is primarily targeted at international e-mails, not purely domestic e-mails. now, as glen points out, there may be mistakes, there may be a lot of excess. >> we have to trust people. we have to trust thousands of people they won't abuse it. edward snowden some would say abused it, others would say blew the whistle. somebody with a more malicious mind who happens to have that authorization could cause

serious damage. >> they can't -- the other thing is you can't separate out -- >> sorry, james. >> you can't separate out domestic from international that cleanly. that's one of the kind of statements that the obama administration has made repeatedly that they can make these clean kind of divides, and that's just not true. >> what was really interesting today i thought, the james clapper released three previously classified documents about the government's vault collection programs. that to me, jeffrey toobin, says they are moving to a more transparent world and the only reason is because of edward snowden and glenn greenwald. >> it is true that there has been public discussion of this and that's a good thing and look, my hats off to glen for investigative reporting. i still think edward snowden is a criminal and should not have done what he did, but i do think

the -- this discussion. >> we wouldn't be having -- we wouldn't be having this discussion if its isn't for him. >> that's true. >> why do you think -- that's the thing i don't understand about the climate in washington these days. is that people want to have debates on television and elsewhere, but then you want to throw the people that start the debates in jail. >> tell me this, james, because you've been involved in this for a long time. here is what i face. as a journalist all my life, i'm looking at this thinking this is brilliant investigation. when it comes to edward snowden, i'm asking myself where does the line get drawn? what you can't have is a license for every single person that has access or authorization to classified material spewing it into the public on a whim. you can't have that. so with modern technology being -- >> what part of this -- >> where do you draw the line? >> what part of this don't you want to talk about? >> i wonder --

>> what participant -- which document that's come out don't you want to talk about? >> i suppose it the specifics of some of the programs, do you feel comfortable as an american citizen that the enemy potentially knows too much about what the american government can and can't do? >> i can tell you i've been an investigative reporter for a long time and almost always the government says when you write a story, it's going to cause damage, and then they can never back it up. they say that about everything. and it's like the boy who cried wolf. it getting old. >> but isn't it also -- >> piers, can i address that? >> yeah, glenn. >> one word about mr. snowden f. you have access to classified infar mansion, he could have uploaded it to the internet in mass or sold it or given it to wikileaks and asked them to publish it all. he did none of that. he came to established media

organizations and said please be extremely careful and judicious. go through these documents, publish what is -- >> give me -- >> and with hold the information that could cause harm and that's what we've done. >> glen, he's gone to china and russia, two of the most repress sieve countries in the world and they -- you don't think they have access to all that material? he somehow kept it secret from them? >> no, they don't jeffrey. the reason he had to go to russia and china is because the united states is filled with jeffrey toobins who want to take people who come forward and bring transparency to the government and throw them into a cage for decades and disappear them from the public discourse. >> that's right and he wants to go to china -- and he wants to go to -- >> hong kong, hong kong, hong kong. >> oh, hong kong, right, which is independent of china. come on. >> right. >> come on, glen. >> the reason he's there is not because he thinks they are beacons of freedom but the reason he's there, the united states is no longer a safe place

for whistle-blowers and said mr. ellsburg he was absolutely right to leave the united states because it's the only way to participate in a debate he started and avoid prosecution in the united states -- >> all right. >> he thinks they are lovely societies. >> let me give the final word to james risen here. james, i would simply say this, is there a limit, though? is there a limit to what kind of material people with the kind of access that edward snowden had should be allowed to put out there before it crosses a line? >> oh, of course. there is always limits on that and that's one of the things you do as a reporter as glen was just discussing. is you kind of make those decisions as you go along. all i'm trying to say is that the government always likes to say that huge national damage, national security damage is being done and then, you know, then they can never prove that.

the republic lasted for over 200 years with a free press and, you know, it's just -- you know, all i know is that every time i've done stories like this, they say that i've caused enormous damage to the country and then nothing happens. >> james risen, jeffrey toobin and glenn greenwald, thank you very much indeed. coming next, the nixon footage that hasn't been seen in 40 years. tonight i'll talk to the other nixon, the president's youngest brother ed. he joins me next. about who to hire without going to angie's list first. with angie's list, i know who to call, and i know the results will be fantastic! find out why more than two million members count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust.

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our thing is the machine and i knew my place. it really reflected a lot about richard nixon, the degree to which he wanted things controlled. >> documentary on nixon which area here tomorrow night. the film uses movies inside administration. joining me is the other nixon, ed nixon, richard nixon's youngest and surviving brother. i watched that documentary and was river vetted by it but i was not close to the action as you were. what is your reaction to it, having seen it? >> the film that we see tomorrow

night is -- it's a good collection of movies that were easily obtained from the national archives, and, you know, what you've done to put it together was putting things in there that really shouldn't have been but there is a lot of footage there that you can draw your own conclusions. my own view is that that goes just fine to show the actual factors that occurred, candid as they were, and then you fill in the commentary and what not to make a story of it. well, what i'm really interested in is the story that is still coming out and is not yet finished and i'm thinking it will over take anybody's effort to do a documentary of this sort that this appears to be. i want to compliment you on trying to get this out there because it is a lot of excellent

candid footage, and a lot of scenes i've never seen, but when you come right down to it, the sin things we're celebrating this year are important to me. he was born january 9th of this year and he was hardly covered by anyone there except that we did get some good, good shots. meanwhile, though, i'm looking at your documentary, "our nixon" and i'm not sure it's ours. my nixon is completely different, of course. >> well tell me -- >> that's because i'm a witness. >> you're 17 years younger than you're brother richard. what do you think is the biggest misconception about him that may be persisted to this day given your knowledge of him? >> well, for the most part, right now i see most of what's been told about richard nixon

has been with prejudice going through a filter and these days, today i watch -- i watch cspan to see the news and listen to people that filter what you hear and i smile because it's really good to check the real facts from the eyewitness rather than to jump to a conclusion that somebody already has -- >> well tell me -- tell me what you personally think the real richard nixon was like compared to perhaps, the perceived in mage of him these days. >> he was a good humored mentor to me. he was really my teacher. when you think about it, i had two fathers and another one that came with it with my brother don. he was always interested in everyone's opinion, listen, listen and think about it and respond with something appropriate to what we needed to hear. my whole life was influenced by

richard nixon from the time i was two years old on that i can remember all of that. and i can't get away from the notion that i wrote in my book that so much has been missed because you haven't paid any attention. even the great historian that wrote a three-volume buy ogden fee of richard nixon never interviewed anybody in the family. that's not the way to do a biography and should be making -- >> one of the most candid interviews he gave was to david frost, my british interviewing colleague, and david frost secured this famous apology to the american people. but did richard ever privately apologize to you, as his brother, for what he had done? >> he didn't need to. for me, he did what he -- what

he was called to do as president of the united states, as leader of the free world, really, and he did his best. he laid everything he had into it, and when you think about what he didn't get to complete because of the none sense that occurred in 1972 and '73, he wasn't able to complete it. well, we're -- we're setting out now to do the legacy on what were those dreams that he had? how many did he achieve? far more than many of his predecessors ever would have dreamed of doing with congress against him, and he got it done. and he was praised for doing that. so take a look at it from the -- well, what do we say, british has talent, so does america in it's own leadership. >> absolutely -- >> by the way, you were very good on that. a good entertainer. >> on "america's got talent"? >> yeah. >> maybe we should have had the nixon family on. it would have been a great act.

>> we would have made some smiles for you. >> ed nixon, great to talk to you. whatever people think of your brother, he was president of his great country and the documentary tomorrow is fascinating. as you say, contains much new material, so i urge everyone to watch it and make up their own mind. great to talk to you. thank you very much. >> thank you. i'll look for a real documentary one day. >> maybe i'll make it with you. "our nixon," which is a real documentary area tomorrow night. zimmerman caught packing heat with the pedal to the medal. what was he thinking. we're cracking down on medicare fraud. the healthcare law gives us powerful tools to fight it... to investigate it... ...prosecute it... and stop criminals. our senior medicare patrol volunteers... are teaching seniors across the country... ...to stop, spot, and report fraud. you can help. guard your medicare card. don't give out your card number over the phone.

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a break in the news tonight, starting with george zimmerman and flashy lights in his rear-view mirror. welcome back. >> thank you. >> now, let's talk george zimmerman. i don't feel comfortable about george zimmerman wandering around aimlessly in his car with a loaded firearm.

sorry, i don't. >> neither i do. but the truth is, he's entitled to it, number one. number two, he didn't do anything wrong. >> is he entitled to it? >> by law he is. >> i know by law. but if you end up killing an unarmed teenager, isn't the very least should happen you don't get back your gun? >> not if you're found not guilty. the other part is, if anyone might need self-defense, you could make the case it's george zimmerman. everybody hates him because he killed trayvon martin. but he was found not guilty and he's entitled to that firearm. >> kristen, are you comfortable with george zimmerman wandering around with this gun? >> i agree with mark. if anybody wants protection right now, his family says he's been receiving death threats. it was in the glove compartment. it's not like he was out looking for trouble.

i think george zimmerman wants to stay off the radar as much as possible. >> he's not doing very well, is he? let's move on. i have a view about it. alex rodriguez may be banned for life from major league baseball. eight others may be suspended. pretty extraordinary if a-rod gets banned for life. >> it would be extraordinary, but it would be necessary. a-rod has been lying from the begin. everyone said jose conseco was a troublemaker, but everything he's told us has been true. a-rod had an opportunity to tell the truth, but he's lied and lead and obstructed justice and he's out of a career now. >> kristen, are you a baseball fan? >> i'm much more a football fan, where issues are not nearly as prevalent. but football is not as much of a stats kind of game as baseball, which is why this is such an

issue and why it's important for people violating these rules to be out of the sport. >> when the punishment is so extreme that it deters people from even thinking at it. at the moment, you have almost every sport riddled with cheats, whether it's sprinting in the olympics -- >> two are they cheating? 99% of the people are taking them. cheating means a competitive advantage. if everybody is doing it, it's not cheating. >> that's ridiculous. because they're all pumped with steroids, it's not cheating? >> because it's a level playing field, yes. >> you would defend lance armstrong? >> i would say he's being hung out to try when most cyclists are doing it. >> he's a disgusting little cheat. what about the guy that came in

17th and was the only clean one. >> he'll sleep good at night. >> i want to talk to you with the ethical and moral nature. the fact that everybody else is cheating makes it not cheating? >> i think let's talk about why they ban these substances. they don't ban them because they make you great athletes but because they do horrible stuff to you. >> why not ban tobacco, cigarettes and alcohol? >> why would anybody do those things as a way to get ahead. >> it's at the competitive advantage in combination doing something destructive to their body. >> the point is, it's against the rules, it's cheating and if they get caught, just because the others are doing it too --

>> major league baseball -- you're missing the point. baseball made a parade for mark mcgwire and sammy sosa. >> you're not going to persuade me. you are missing the point. >> maybe if i put it in soccer terms. >> thank you both very much. these all for us tonight. cnn's documentary airs here tomorrow night. we'll be back friday night for an hour of jeff corwin, sharks, alligator and a python. you won't see that anywhere else at 9:00 p.m. anderson cooper starts in just a few moments.

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