tv Erin Burnett Out Front CNN August 1, 2013 8:00pm-9:01pm PDT
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company said the response was so negative, the commercials were being taken off the air immediately. good evening. tonight the unbelievable words of a man who says he's not a monster. and the proud, brave words of one of the three women to whom he was precisely that. a captor, a torturer, a rapist, a killer, in short, a monster. the three endured all of that year after year, held captive by ariel castro in his torture chamber in cleveland, ohio. they were victimized but they're not victims. amanda, gina and michelle are survivors. calling them a monster's victim gives far too much credit to the monster. he needs to be forgotten, but there's plenty of time for that. he got a live sentence plus 1,000 years. that's what a judge gave him
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after hearing powerful testimony from michelle knight and a delusional account from mr. castro. it's rare to hear someone justify their crimes. today in court, on live television, we saw just that. >> all of the sex practically was consensual. these allegations about me is totally wrong. there were times they would even ask me for sex, many times. >> a lot of harmony going on in that home, that's what he said. we're going to look closer at whatever inside someone's mind makes them say something like that. but first, pamela brown with today's sentencing hearing. >> from this moment on, i will not let you define me or affect who i am. >> reporter: a resolute michelle knight confronted her former
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tormenter head-on for the first time since escaping captivity. >> you took 11 years of my life away. and i have got it back. i spent 11 years in hell. now your hell is just beginning. i will overcome all this that happened. but you will face hell for eternity. >> reporter: when it was ariel castro's turn, he refused to take responsibility for what he did. but at one point he did attempt to apologize. >> i am truly sorry to michelle and amanda and the dejesus family. you guys know all the harmony that went on in that home. >> reporter: castro also denied physically and sexually abusing the women. >> most of the sex that went on
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in the house, practically all of it was consensual. these allegations about me forcing upon them, that is totally wrong. >> reporter: he even tried to justify his behavior. >> they're trying to paint me as a monster, and i'm not a monster. i'm sick. my sexual problem has been so bad on my mind. >> reporter: over defense objections, prosecutors presented a detailed reconstruction of what the women endured for a decade inside castro's home, using a model of his house and showing these photos of their rooms, with boarded up windows and rusty chains, even describing how the girls were abducted, including the moment when he lured his first victim, michelle knight, inside his house. >> he takes her down to the basement where she's physically restrained with a chain, plastic
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ties are put on her wrist and a motorcycle helmet is placed on her head. it is at this time she's sexually assaulted. >> reporter: and on the day she was rescued. >> she launched herself in the officer's arms. legs, arms, just choking him, just repeating, you saved us, you saved us. >> reporter: family members spoke for the other two women. >> she's doing better every day. to ariel castro -- [ speaking spanish ] >> reporter: in the end, the women relied on each other for survival and are drawing on the same strength that helped them survive so many years in captivity.
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>> gina was my friend. my friendship with her is the only good thing that came out of this. we said we will some day make it out alive, and we did. >> pamela brown joins us now from cleveland. what struck you the most today in court? watching this, i found it -- i don't think i had ever seen anything like this, hearing this man who we're going to hear more from experts ahead. but his -- i mean, he seems to be a psychopath that actually believes these things he was saying. >> he seems delusional. it was jaw dropping, anderson. i've been cover thing story from the beginning. i was in the courtroom with ariel castro from the beginning. at that time he had his head down, he wouldn't say anything to the judge, wouldn't make eye contact with anyone. he just looked really ashamed. then today it was like he was a different person. it was in stark contrast to how he was before. he was looking around, leaping back in his share, even interrupting the judge. of course, we heard his bizarre
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rambling speech. so there were two sides of him it seemed. but there were some poignant moments that struck me. it was powerful to see michelle knight's steely resolve. if you asked me who i would have thought would have testified today, i wouldn't have said michelle knight from the beginning. she has the toughest recovery but yet today she faced her tormenter head on and she stayed there at the sentencing through the end of it. the family representatives for the other two victims left the courtroom, but michelle knight stayed there as ariel castro attempted to apologize and justify his behavior. so it was incredible to see that. even the judge pointed out her remarkable courage and in her soft spoken voice, she said, you're welcome. it was a light hearted moment in what was a very emotionally charged day. anderson? >> you can't attempt to apologize in one breath and the next breath justify your
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behavior and say this was consensual sex. joining us now former federal prosecutor jeffrey toobin, mark geragos, and dr. drew penske. mary ellen o'toole, did he act today like you would have expected from someone like him, someone who has done the things he's done? i just want to play for our viewers something else he said about these women and how they got into his vehicle. let's play that. >> she got into my vehicle and -- [ inaudible ] i'm not a monster. >> he is blaming the victims here, the survivors here. >> he's absolutely blaming the three survivors. he's taking no responsibility for his behavior.
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and that's very classic psychopathy. we were witnessing a classic psychopath. >> you have no doubt about that, that he's a psychopath. >> he's not out of touch from reality, the rules don't apply for him, and the hallmark again is this inability to empathize or feel guilt. it was all about him today, all about him. >> mary ellen, the forensic psychiatrist that the prosecution brought in, you know him, explain what he meant when he said there's no mental illness here. >> i do know him and have worked with him for years. what he meant by that was, there was no mental defect in this individual based on his opinion, and that meant that there is no debilitating mental illness that caused him to act this way because he was delusional or psychotic. he completely knew right from wrong, and he engaged in these
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behaviors willingly. he knows the rules. they don't apply. so there was -- there's no mental defect. he was not out of touch with reality. >> so he's a psychopath, you believe, but he wasn't out of touch with reality? >> a psychopath is not a mental illness. it's a personality disorder. we sometimes confuse those two, but someone who is mentally ill may not understand the nature or the consequences of their actions. not the case with ariel castro. >> dr. drew, what do you think? >> i agree 100% with what she's saying here. we're seeing the human being really in its worst form. this is about as bad as humans can get. he's not only a monster, he is also sick. he may have also had sex addiction and people with sex addiction will distort their victims. in other words, i've seen sex addicts who tell me that a 4-year-old was coming on to them. what were they supposed to do?
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>> but the idea that this guy blaming an addiction, when he said that, you know, you just -- it's like, what? give me a break. a porn addiction led him to this? >> absolutely it's ridiculous. it's an explanation for some of the things you're trying to get your head around, but it's not a justification, and it doesn't diminish what mary ellen was saying about this being a full-fledge psychopath. >> i want to say what he said right there. let's play this. >> i believe i am addicted to porn, to the porn that really makes me impulsive. and i just don't realize that porn was wrong. i'm not trying to make excuses me. >> every time he said i'm not trying to make excuses, you can just take out the "i'm not trying to" and just stay making excuses. >> his point of view beg nos alternative. even if it is an illness is used
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to justify unjustifiable behavior. i see the astonishment on your face, anderson. it is astonishing when you hear how a psychopath thinks and don't seem to be able to understand that. >> that's why i think it was important to actually listen and see this guy's face, because it's rare to actually see a psychopath -- you see them in movies and stuff. but this is apparently seems like a true psychopath and just the coldness of it, it was just stunning to watch. you found it hard to watch. >> the coldness of it reminded me a good deal of jerry sandusky, that self-pity, calmness. my reaction was a line from the great gasbi, conduct may be
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founded on the hard rock or the wet marshes, but after a certain point, i don't care what it's founded on. i didn't care what his problems were, i didn't want to listen to him. i guess it was a public service to broadcast it, but i found it -- >> mark, were you surprised he was allowed to talk as long as he did in that courtroom? >> no. could i just weigh in here from my perspective? i'm not an addiction specialist and i'm not going to quote "the great gasbi." from my stand point, this was a spectacle. i've represented people who are as delusional or didn't have any insight into what they were doing and they justify it, because that's how the human mind works. it's rare for somebody to fall on the sword and have the kind of insight that you would need to not do this kind of thing. but that having been said, the
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idea that this thing was televised and that the prosecutors gave this guy this opportunity, and then started to act, i thought, in a crazy manner banding about thousands of years, lay people who aren't in the court system take a look at this, and i think they get the most skewed version. and if anybody thinks that this in any way, shape or form resembles what happens in a courtroom, except for, you know, the fact that you're processing people who are very, very sick, it's a caricature. i think it's unfortunate. >> mark, i think there was a political problem that the prosecutors were dealing with. there was tremendous desire to see the death penalty in this case. and the prosecutors had to persuade the public they were not letting this guy off easy. i think they made they had to
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>> i mean, i could not believe this guy is saying these things. >> and that's -- if you can imagine, that's what we hear during an interview, and that's what i think the detective was talking about today when he talked about how he set up an interview. you have to be nonjudgmental and be prepared for this onslaught of information and you cannot sit there and say, no, i can't believe you're telling me this, because you want them to talk. you want them to tell you what happened. even though your head is spinning like in the "exorcist." it is stunning. it is shocking. but this is what a psychopathic predator is like. >> dr. drew, the fact that he's sitting in prison watching youtube videos of the women that he abused for years and years. how is that possible? >> i don't know what the prison allows but it makes your head to spin to think about this guy and
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his behavior. it's unbelievable. but i think, mark, humbly i disagree. i think they've done a public service by looking at this guy. they tend to be manipulative, charming. they are in many of our lives. you cannot believe what many people say, and if you see any evidence that someone is behaving inappropriately, you must act, no matter what they say, and really be suspicious. a lot of people have sociopath and psychopathic tendencies. and you're looking in the face of it tonight. there it is. that's how they think. they don't understand emotions. they only act as if they had emotions. >> you know, i think that's a good point, dr. drew. you put that guy in a suit and he could be a college professor, he could be any that you run across. >> he's got a job, he functions in society, therefore, i'm final. there are a lot of people like that in this country. >> dr. drew, appreciate you being on, thank you very much.
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you deserve into spend life in prison. i can forgive you, but i will never forget. >> michelle knight talking about the man who imprisoned her for 11 years. a psychiatrist also testifying saying that michelle, amanda and gina all now face life sentences of their open, as they try and heal. amazingly, in her statement tonight, michelle knight was looking beyond herself and her two friends. >> with the guidance of god, i will prevail and help others that suffered at the hands of others. writing this statement gave me the strength to be a stronger woman. after 11 years, i am finally being heard and it's liberating. >> a remarkable sentiment for someone who has been through so much. here to talk about what they're
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going through, ed smart, whose daughter was abducted when she was 11 years old. and co-author of "safe kids, what parents need to know to keep their children safe." ed, let me start with you. how do michelle knight and ariel castro's other women who survived, how do they move on? how do you begin this process? >> well, i mean, today was one of those points where they can smart moving forward. because when you don't know whether you're going to have a trial or whether there's going to be a plea deal, there's always that anxiety of, you know, what am i going to have to face? what am i going to have to do? do i are to relive this nightmare? can it be over with? can't we move forward? i think there's a lot of people that think, well, it's very empowering and certainly for some, it may be very empowering. for others, it can be crippling,
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and make life very difficult for them. i think the fact that they've been able to pretty much stay out of the limelight is a good thing. whether they decide to -- i mean, as michelle was saying, help other people or whether they decide to just start moving on, living their life, and finding a new life is each of their own choices. so i'm excited for them. they have this opportunity of having this behind them at this point. certainly it was, you know, a huge point for our family to have mitchell sentenced and to have the ordeal over with. >> and rebecca, you and i have discussed this before. one of the women echoed it in her videotape statement. she said this is something that happened to me, it's not who i am. it would seem to me that's a key point to -- for anybody who survives something like that, to really not only intellectually understand, but to emotionally feel. >> absolutely.
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and understanding that you can move forward past the events. i agree 100% with what mr. smart said. this being a day that they were all able to make their choices, whether they were in court or not, and to move forward. and begin the process of deciding where they want to go from this point. so very important day. >> rebecca, i want to play something else that was said -- that she said in court today. let's listen. >> you took 11 years of my life away. and i have got it back. i spent 11 years in hell. now your hell is just beginning. i will overcome all this that happened. but you will face hell for eternity. from this moment on, i will not let you define me or affect who i am.
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i will live on. >> rebecca, what have you learned from survivors? people who are watching this now can apply in their open lives in different base. i'm always fascinated why people are able to survive the worst, most up imaginable things and others aren't. >> well, again, i think it's the meaning that you make out of it, out of the event that occurs. it's pretty soon for these girls to really get an understanding of that. but clearly they are beginning to grasp that. it's the meaning as you move forward, as you move beyond the events. >> so you have to create a meaning about it or a narrative about it? >> some narrative to make sense of it, because it's such a senseless act. the things that these women have endured, what elizabeth smart endured, jaycee dugard, it was senseless. a psychopath never has to say
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they're sorry, they never have to experience it. that's part of the seduction of being a psychopath in my mind. but understanding that and moving forward is the ability to let go of the event or the events that happened to you, define who you are for the rest of your life. >> ed -- >> it's a really important piece. >> ed, elizabeth testified against her captor and read a statement in court during his sentencing. i want to play a bit of what she said immediately afterward. >> i told him that whether -- i told him today in court that whether he received his just sentence here on earth or after this earth life, that one day he will have to be responsible for his actions. >> how do you prepare your daughter as a family to sit in that courtroom, to face that person? >> you know, i think one of the most important things that, you
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know, the prosecutors did was to help elizabeth understand why she was doing this. and that this wasn't necessarily a choice, it was something she had to do. and i think that preparing for it enabled her to be able to get out there and do it, and i think that that is something that takes time. i mean, i can't tell you how worried i was initially when elizabeth came home and wondered what kind of hell she was going to have to go through. you know, i would have certainly preferred this plea deal at that time. and yet nine years later, elizabeth was able to get up there and mitchell was such a coward. he did his singing and had to be escorted to another room and only heard her voice rather than really see her. but i think that each person
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gets to that point in their open due time and maybe some people don't even get there, but i think to be able to say i'm not going to let -- this is not me. what you did to me was not me, and it's such an important point and it's at that point that you can say, you know, this wasn't me. i'm moving forward. this is -- this isn't me. >> thank you so much for being on today. really appreciate it. >> thank you. >> thank you so much for having us. >> find out more on this and other stories at cnn.com. just ahead, what life has been like for ariel castro's neighbors and why one man is moving away. and edward snowden has a lot more leg room. he's free to roam anywhere in russia for the next year.
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welcome back. as pamela brown reported earlier as ariel castro's hearing, a model of his house in west cleveland sat in the courtroom as prosecutors and witnesses described in horrific detail what he did over the course of a decade. for the first time, we also saw photographs taken inside the house. we learned how bleak their prison was. under the plea deal, he'll have to pay to have the house torn down. for his neighbors, that moment cannot come soon enough. randi kaye reports. >> reporter: on seymore avenue
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where ariel castro once lived, residents want one thing, their neighborhood back. >> they don't really care about him no more. he's history. that's all it is. so we just want our neighborhood to be back to normal. >> reporter: back to normal for daniel, who has lived here 48 years, means no more police cars, no more satellite trucks, and no more authorities funneling in and out of castro's home. marty says he's proud of the women who escaped. he just saw gina dejesus yesterday. he calls what castro did monstrous. still hard for you to look across the vote and stair at that house? >> that house should have been torn down yesterday. we don't like it. >> reporter: this man said he's so disgusted by what's happened here, he's moving out of the neighborhood. he said too many strangers are blaming neighbors for not catching on. >> they blame everybody. >> reporter: because nothing was done? >> right, yeah.
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>> reporter: how does that make you feel? >> i feel bad. >> reporter: he says castro's home has become a tourist to ha kids play on this spot. he would like to see the house turned into a museum. a reminder to parents to always keep a close eye on their children. he lives right behind it. is it over or does this neighborhood still struggle with it? >> i don't think it's over, because the man got away with it for ten years. he made a mockery of our judicial system. >> reporter: adams says the whole ordeal has hurt his tattoo business. he's ready to move on. >> i am sitting here on the driveway, sitting here on the
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street, and a lot of my clients don't affiliate themselves or like to be, you know, adored by cleveland police them southeast. >> reporter: so your business took a hit? >> yeah. >> reporter: at the church just down the block, the reverend has been busy the last few months offering comfort to neighbors. >> i hope that you can convince them that they should not have guilt feelings, because if they had known, they would have helped. if you don't know what's going on, and it's a complete shock, you're the victim as much as they are. >> randi joins me now from cleveland. did he talk about the women that were kept inside that home at all? >> reporter: he did, anderson. he talked quite a bit about them. he said he's found some peace in knowing that these women were living just down the street, because he believes they were
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able to hear his church bells ringing on sundays. he believes he heard them twice ringing on holidays. and that's really given him a whole lot of peace. he said not even ariel castro was able to keep that beautiful sound of his church bells from coming through the walls of his home and into the ears of those women. he said that those bells gave those women hope. he strongly believes this, the hope to carry on and the
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russia has given him temporary asylum. he can live and work there for one year. the white house says they were not given a heads up. >> we are extremely disappointed that the russian government would take this step despite our very clear and lawful requests in public and in private to have mr. snowden sent back to the united states to face the charges against him. he's not a disdenltd. he's not a whistleblower. he's been charged with a crime. >> the white house is reconsidering whether president obama will meet one on one with president putin next month. some in congress are calling for a stronger response. in the meantime, there are reports that snowden is getting job offers. lon snowden and his attorney bruce fein join me now. when you heard the news today, what went through your mind? >> i was surprised. i didn't expected, but i was thankful. it's a positive step, but it's simply one more step of many.
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we have work to do here on u.s. soil. we being folks who are concerned about these surveillance, the unconstitutional surveillance programs, and that is really where my focus is at the current time. >> there's obviously the larger issue that you're now concerned about, and also very personal issue of your son and his future. have you spoken to him? do you have any idea where he's gone? do you hope to go there? >> i have not spoken directly to my son, and i don't intend to do so until the appropriate time. and i believe that's going to be in some time. we have communicated through intermediaries, and i'll let bruce talk about our plans. >> bruce? >> i spoke this morning with the russian lawyer who represents edward in russia. he's at the apex of the legal establishment there. we discussed the train of events needed for us to obtain visas to travel to moscow and have an opportunity to discuss with him the possibility of legal
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representation of edward in the united states. make certain that all legal avenues are fully made known to edward in deciding what he wishes to do. and if things go according to expectations, i would anticipate something like september 1 would be a time frame to think that the visit would be made. >> lon, when we spoke last night, bruce referenced the fact that there might come a time when it's constructive to figure out whether there's some solution that's in the interest of all sides that still honors due process and the highest principles of family and civilization. to you, what does that look like? do you see a time when edward can return to the united states? are there conditions under which you can imagine that happening? >> certainly i can imagine that. and we've been, again, trying to work to gain assurances that due process would be afforded to my son. but that just has -- that's been futile at this point. again, you know, you've had people on -- actually cnn has
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had people on tonight, whether it's lindsey graham, chuck schumer, they're using the same tired old tactics of now they're complaining about president vladamir putin, talking about russian-u.s. relations, doing everything they can to distract the conversations from the real issues at hand instead of focusing on these programs. quite obviously they lack the courage to focus on these coura programs. >> anderson, i would like to interject here. many of the members condemned edward as a so-called coward, despite the fact that they are the ones by convicting of treason before a trial that have poisoned the atmosphere. >> so you don't believe he could get a care trial? >> at present, no. there's not been a single statement out of the attorney general or president of the united states that edward snowden enjoys a presumption of
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incense that has existed eight centuries. >> is that something they need to publicly say that? >> of course they do. there are people out there in their open party, even the secretary of state john king saying mr. snowden is guilty of treason. they do need to say, that because it's not against a background of silence. this is the secretary of state making that statement on "voice of america" at the same time he's saying we want a fair trial for edward. that's not a way to get a fair trial. it's a way to get a jury that's rigged in advance. >> lon, do you believe your son is -- i don't know if safe is the right word, but the obama administration is upset about this move by the russian government. i would assume that there may be fallout about this at the g-20. one would assume that the obama administration may continue to ma ma make overtures to the russian
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government -- do you trust that this year-long asylum is what it is? >> i certainly have confidence, and again, it's a matter of trust and based on what i have seen thus far, i have trust and faith and confidence in those people who have taken my son in, and are trying to keep him safe and secure. now, do i think that he is going to be in a condition where he can be safe in public for sometime? no. i think it's going to be a long time before my son can safely walk the streets and function as a normal human being. i don't know that that will ever happen again. certainly, there are people who are vengeful. it's clear, all you have to do is listen to so many of our politicians. emphasize politicians. it's clear to me, we have a lot of folks that have been elected to function as leaders and they continue to function as politicians. so no, my son is not safe per se. but i do believe that the
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russian government and the russian people in general, they want to keep him safe and secure. so i'm thankful he's in russia. >> bruce, there are some people watch thing show tonight, and i hear from them on twitter all the time, who say look, edward snowden is seeking asylum in a country that the guy that is running it is a former kgb officer. they have their own intelligence service. they're not all that interested in transparency in their own dealings and say if edward snowden is interested in transparency, why is he in russia? should people look at where he is as some sort of reflection of him or is this just where the events have brought him? >> they need to look at why he's in russia and not in the united states. we need to look at what we did in order to provoke the disclosure that he made, and that forced him to go abroad, because he couldn't receive a fair trial with people convicting him of treason before he's had a single day in court, before there's even been a
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chance to test the constitutionality of any of the criminal complaints. that's the problem here. no one is trying to suggest that russia or other countries may be human rights paldins. but we are controlling our own country, and i think these are distra distractions from rectifying what's wrong in the united states. not that the united states is worse than russia, that's ridiculous. but we're only become a better country if we're willing to look at our own errors and correct them before we lecture others. >> i would like to share something anderson. again, i hope that the american people, after the show will go and -- to youtube, watch his 12-minute video and the 7-minute video that was released later. listen to that. that is ed snowden. and listen to what he said, because as the days pass and more information comes out, it's becoming much more difficult and
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virtually impossible for those in congress on the intelligence committees to dispute somewhat he said. that's the truth that needs to be heard. and that terrifies the members of these intelligence committees and folks in congress and as a matter of fact, they made it impossible for folks in the united states army to even listen to those videos. >> lon snowden, good to have you on. thank you. coming up, why the state department is closing embassies in the middle east. we'll be right back. flexibilit. so here are a few reasons to choose university of phoenix. our average class size is only 14 students. our financial tools help you make smart choices about how to pay for school. our faculty have, on average, over 16 years of field experience. we'll help you build a personal career plan. we build programs based on what employers are looking for. our football team is always undefeated. and leading companies are interested in our graduates. we'll even help you decorate your new office. ok. let's get to work.
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susan hendricks joins us with a "360" bulletin. the united states is temporarily closing embassies in the middle east because of security concerns. that includes facilities in egypt, libya, iraq and kuwait. one u.s. official tells cnn it's based on more than the usual chatter. defense attorneys released photos of whitey bulger that are meant to show his softer side, including shots with his girlfriend. the attorneys will show these pictures to the jury if bulger testifies. a decision they say he will make tomorrow. and italy's high court has upheld the former prime minister's four-year prison sentence for tax fraud. he says the sentence is
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unfounded. >> we'll be right back. but we still swim. every second, somewhere in the world, lightning strikes... but we still play in the rain. poisonous snakes can be found in 49 of the 50 states, but we still go looking for adventure. a car can crash... a house can crumble... but we still drive... and love coming home. because i think deep down we know... all the bad things that can happen in life... they can't stop us from making our lives... good. ♪ ♪
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highs today. the pace of the recovery remains slow. gallop has found that only ant a third of american adults prepare a household budget. and some say that could be making us less financially secure and less free. tom foreman has this. >> reporter: grabbing a pizza on the run is a treat ellen and joe enjoy. but even with modest incomes, a house in brooklyn and two kids, it's also something they know they can afford. because they're among the relatively rare americans who have put together and follow a household budget. >> i think that i gain from budgeting a sense of security, a sense that i am able to control a little bit, the uncontrollable future. >> reporte >> we do try to re-evaluate the budget every few months to see if we're hitting the targets. >> reporter: that can be hard, because so many people find the
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idea unpleasant. >> just listen to the word budget. it's not a very appealing word. >> reporter: yet amanda says a good budget does not have to account for every penny. people just need to make sure big important items such as household experiences, insurance and savings are covered. and once they are, the budgeter can confidently spend money on things that he or she simply wants. >> often times that means we're going to create a life that turns into a hamster wheel, because it's so expensive and hard to maintain. so if you create a budget, you have some visibility into what your life should cost so you have the freedom to spend money and you're not staying up late. >> reporter: gallop found some intriguing details. wealthier people and conservatives are more likely to track their spending and savings. those with lower incomes and liberals are less likely. even though who budget admit it is hard to start.
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but the reward is peace of mind, and guilt-free pizza, too. tom foreman, cnn. >> ran out of time for where to begin? we've had a long time to chat with bob haldemon and have the opportunity and the question is where to start? here you were, you worked four years in washington as nixon's number two man, nixon's s.o.b. you called it. he never went anywhere without you. >> pretty close to right. >> what you're accusing yourself of is a cloudy crystal ball. that's hardly the thing the american public thinks it's entitled to. that's the issue. >> wel m
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