>> thank you for watching today. >> it was so fun to be with you, christi. >> we'll coordinate next week. >> "save the union" with candy crowley starts now. go make some great memories. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com she is alive and apparently physically unharmed, hannah anderson, the object of a week-long multistate search has been found. the man suspected of kidnapping her and killing her mother and brother has been shot dead in idaho. we will have the latest. also today, hard ball on the field and in the east room, the republican tight spot cornered by constituents in town hall meetings. >> in five sentences or less can we depend upon you to vote against any budget bill that includes funding for the implementation of obama care. >> please do. pressed by the president at his bully pulpit. >> the idea that you would shut down the government unless you

prevent 30 million people from getting health care is a bad idea. prelude to ciseptember's divide. what's a republican to do? our sunday exclusive with rnc chairman reince priebus. then -- >> given the scale of this program i understand the concerns of those who would worry that it could be subject to abuse. >> can the president satisfy critics of a spy program gathering date on every phone call in america? we'll ask one of those criticses, a member of the democratic leadership, south carolina's james clyburn. plus -- >> it is probably appropriate for us to take a pause, reassess where it is that russia's going, what our core interests are. >> no date night in moscow. our political panel weighs in on this hot summer's cold shoulder. >> i think it's a disappointment to a lot of people, a lot of fans. >> batter up, player's out, the season of baseball's diss content. joining us the ledge endary mr.

cub, hall of famer ernie banks and emmy award-wing filmmaker, ken burns. i'm candy crowley and this is "state of the union." but first, a dramatic rescue in idaho, after a week-long kidnapping ordeal and man hunt, the suspect in the kidnapping is dead. the victim, 16-year-old hannah anderson of california is safe. we want to go right to cnn's miguel marquez in cascade, idaho. miguel, i know you're beginning to learn details of this rescue operation that was a week in the making. give us a sense of the last couple of hours of how they got to hannah and what played out with her kidnapper? >> reporter: yeah. part of this may have been luck, but we create our own luck. agents in a plane picked up the pair near the lake where the horseback rider had seen them some days before. hours after that they moved in by helicopter and they dropped off agents of this hostage

rescue team about two hours' walk from the camp because they didn't want to give a head's up that they were on their way. they surrounded their camp and it is unclear how long they waited, but it must have been some time. they waited until hannah and mr. dimaggio were separated. they confronted him, took him out and got hannah out of there. candy? >> so tell me how hannah is doing now. what do we know about her? >> reporter: we know physically at least from officials here this she is doing fine. they say she's in pretty good shape given what she has gone through. however, the trauma of what she's gone through starting with the death of her mother, her brother and this week-long run, that is probably going to take some time to get over. we also know that an fbi victim specialist is with her now and will be there for the family in days to come, candy. >> we also know and have seen her heart broken father out there dealing with the death of

his wife, the death of his young son and the kidnapping of his daughter. what happens next for the dad and for hannah? are they together yet? >> reporter: i don't think so. as i understand it he'll be brought up here by fbi agents and other officials in some sort of private mode into boise where she is in the hospital. they will reunite there and then they'll figure out how soon she can get out of the hospital and it doesn't sound, because of the lack of her injury that she won't have to be there long, but i think at this point he sent a text message to cnn last night saying it is time to heal and he'll want to get her out of there into a safe environment and basically decompress and put all of this behind them for a while. >> miguel marquez, it went from tragedy to this moment of elation and eebt ally you come back around to the fact that this kidnapped girl and her father are minus her mother as

well as her younger brother. i know you're staying on the story for us. we'll be talking to you later. >> back now to politics and who better than our four cnn commentators. republican strategist kevin madden and stephanie cutter, radio talk show host ben ferguson and columnist errol lewis. rarely do we get a chance to get happy news and i want to bring you back to last friday when the president had a news conference and he sought to ease americans' doubts about the massive nsa surveillance programs and outlined the series of reforms and they include working with congress to restructuring the secret court to the declassification of some nsa activities and outside experts to review computer spy technolo technology. i want to welcome someone else from afar and the assistant democratic leader in the house. last month he joined forces with

conservative republicans in a failed effort to defund the surveillance program. congressman, first of all, thank you so much for being there. i wanted to ask you, first of all, if what the president said in any way made you feel easier or more comfortable about this program in particular the phone data that is collected on every american? >> first of all, thank you so much for having me, candy. yes, but i felt that way before. as you know, the president spoke out on this issue long before snowden and i was very comfortable with the president's position on this. it's just that every now and then you catch a vote in order to let your constituents know and for your colleagues to know exactly how you feel about's situation and also let the white

house know that this is something that we cannot allow you to have just a blank check on. >> as far as you are concerned, can the president satisfy your concern and the concerns of your constituents in any other way other than reducing the scope of that phone date collecting program? oh, yes, he can. transparency is always very, very important. i think most american people want to be safe and secure in their homes and when they are carrying out their day to day activities and so we want the president to do what is necessary to keep us safe. he's got a tremendous record in that regard, and i'm very proud of that record, but all things don't start and stop at the president's desk. >> as you go down the line and as you know, we have a process

in place that for some reason allow an ed snowden to exist and to get information. you want to be very, very careful in not just what the president's doing, but with all of the hired hands may be doing when they're carrying out their duties and responsibilities. >> sure. >> and also to find out whether or not these are the right people to have me in these positions so the president can do a lot of things to make sure that these contractors, for instance, are going through a process that would allow us to know what kind of people they're hiring and to weed out these actors because that's what happened in this particular case. let me bring our panel now because the question now exists, well, we need more transparency about these programs and we need more oversight, maybe put in an advocate for civil rights into a process that did argue into surveillance courts.

so in some ways has he made edward snowden more a whistle-blower than the than what we were told he was when this happened. >> that's the bigger issue and he defended this program and went to bat for it, not very long ago on multiple occasions and snowden gets exactly what he wanted which was to be a whistleblower and not be a traitor even though he's in russia. >> there are still charges against him and he's now being looked at as more than a whistle-blower. if he shouldn't have had snowden have this much influence in the white house. if the president believed in the program as i think he did or still does then he should have explained it to the american people. this is you need to know. i think this is is a good program and i don't think one person should have that much influence. ? there's a conundrum, edward snow

den has endangered our lives and then the president says we need to be more transparent. there's a big difference between dumping a bunch of security information out there on the internet and working with congress to make sure that everybody has the information they need to sign off on these things. there's a big difference and what the president said in his press conference was that he does believe in the program because it is protecting american lives and he needs to find a balance and that's what he said as a senator. >> let me get you in here. >> he has championed that before snowden. >> he's going to be stepping back, you know? he's becoming a constitutional scholar. >> he has the secret court and secret aggregates and i'm already happy with this, so let

me throw you a crumb and see if that will work and hearing from clieburn, we'll see step after step after step which will be until he gets real balance which is what the white house wants. >> there are plenty of people in congress that have full information on this program and they said that and they've signed off on it, but as more and more are brought into some of the details here they'll understand there's a tradeoff between transparency. kevin did, in fact, allude to that saying the american people want to be safe. it seems to me the minute you bring up safety and terrorism especially after the week we've had with all of these embassies closed that there's really no way that any of these programs are going to substantially be changed because they're too far reaching. >> well, i think, look, that's one of the interesting things about this issue is that there hasn't been this reflex with relationship on capitol hell and the support doesn't fall along

the traditional partisan lines that most issues -- that occurs with most issues in d.c. and they're bee and large of the program. and themmy i think that he needs to make sustained arguments in the program. the person doing the most talking about at this point was edward snow den. i hope you can stick with us to. when with we come back the fight over obama care and fears of a government shutdown.

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resolution that funds one penny of obama care. >> the law is banned and it is not ready to implement and we should not fund it. >> i will not vote for a continuing resolution unless it defunds obama care. >> that is a sample of what some republicans are preaching. we are back now with congressman jim clyburn and our panel. first to you, congressman. even the president admits there will be glitches and we're not sure how big they're going to be with obama care specifically that all individuals have some kind of health care. the worry has not just been on the republican side and it's been on the democratic side and there have been unions that they have long fought for benefits will go down the tubes with obama care. how concerned are your constituents and how concerned are you? >> i'm always concerned that we're trying to do anything this big. the fact of the matter is when

we go back to the founding of the country, every time we've tried to do something big we've had to tweak it later on. even the constitution of the united states when it was put in place almost immediately we figured out something was wrong and so we amended it with the bill of rights. ten amendments to the united states constitution. we've had to fix social security often. we've had to do things with medicare often and we'll have to do a lot of things with obama care as well because things change, circumstances change and people change, needs are different and so we are going to be tweaking obama care for a long, long time, but i'm very interested in what i heard from one of the town halls in north carolina and one of my republican colleagues got a pretty air flow in his town hall meeti meeting. people want to keep their children on their insurance policies when they're out of work up until they're 26 years old. people don't want to be kicked

off of insurance as soon as they get sick. they want their children born with juvenile diabetes to get coverage. these are things that were made possible by obama care and we are not going to throw out the baby with the bathwater, and i think that they ought to come to the realization that we ought to get serious about fixing it and doing what is necessary to tweak it and get it right rather than just to repeal. >> this is where, congressman, i want to bring in our panel, too. this is where politics meets scheduling because the obama administration deliberately put the good parts that the congressman just mentioned. keeping your kids on their own health care insurance until they're 26. no pre-existing conditions and no caps on how much your health care is costing you, but now comes the part that's difficult and that is paying for it. >> a lot of people come in and get health care insurance if they don't have it or really sick people will be left with

health care and the others willing to pay the fine. >> first, let's drop the pretense that obama care even with the provisions in it now is in any way popular. it's not. it's very unpopular. >> because it's suffocating the american economy and some of the worst parts are still to come and the american people are cognizant of that. >> some of the opposition to it is that it didn't go far enough so we'll just add that. >> whether you think we should keep obama care, repeal wins? >> actually, that's not true. when you ask the question should we keep it in place and adjust it as we go along? the overwhelming majority of the american people believe we should keep it in place and go on as needed and the individual provisions in -- when you look at the top lines i think we should all acknowledge that a lot of politics is wrapped up in that and it's called obama care and when you look at the individual provisions they are overwhole withingly popular.

>> this is a bill that costs a lot of money. >> the congressman even spoke to this. this thing is too big. it was too big from the beginning and it was too broad sweeping from the beginning and more importantly he said we'll have to tweak it. i wished they would have paid attention when they passed it and they would have said okay, we have to deal with it. if the bill was so good -- hold on. that's how government happens. >> if the bill was so good and it was going to be so great and it was going to be easy then they would have been running on it 2014 and would have been delaying parts of it because democrats know it's not popular. >> no, they're not. >> you look at president's body language in that press conference and he is saying, look, if what you want to do is run on 2014 on the proposition of throwing millions of people under existing health care, be my guest. he's inviting it over --

>> name a prominent advocate for obama care. you can't find it. even hillary clinton. she's going to be many one of your candidates. >> if she runs for president let's see what she says about healthcare. i guarantee you this will be an issue in the next election and democrats feel confident that we're on the winning side of this. democrat demeanor democrats are on the side of taking archway from people and if you want to shut down the govern chlt the president said on friday, bring it on. let's do it. >> congressman clyburn, i'm sure you're hearing all of this and one of the suggestions is that the democrats are not running in obama care in 2014. i'm assuming, given what you have said earlier, do you think in the end that obama care is going to be a net plus, not ten years from now or five years from now, but next year when democrats most need a healthy

economy and an obama care that is working reasonably smoothly? >> absolutely, i believe that. the fact of the matter is we will be running on obama care in 2014. we set it up for -- as of january 1, 2014, we'll start doing the exchanges on october 1, 2013. we fully expect to run on it, and we expect to win on it. the american people will be the winners and that's what my republican colleagues are getting into these town hall meetings during the month of august. this is a big, big difference. >> let me interject here, congressman. yes, you are running on the good parts that you mentioned and the health care that people are able to get if they're sick, et cetera. the question, though, and one of the reasons when the president said you know what? we'll delay for a year requiring businesses to either ensure or pay a fine and a lot of folks

looked at that and said that because they realize that this will cost businesses money and it will be bad for the economy so is that not true that a major part of obama care was canceled for fear that what's going to happen is businesses will cut back and they will have part-time workers as opposed to full-time workers? >> well, that's part of the tweaking process. suddenly, we're going to tweak it going forward. we know that small businesses, and i go to the chambers of commerce meetings and i go to the rotary clubs and i talk to them exactly the way i'm talking to you today. we are going to tweak this and it's a very complicated piece of legislation. we know that a lot of people that are in business do not understand the tax subsidies that come along with this and when they understand it, they see it as a big benefit r and we don't talk about the tax subsidies. we don't talk about the real good things about the bill.

we only talk about those things that people are complaining about, but i want to remind the panel. social security was very, very unpopular when it was put in place back in the '30s. medicare, very, very unpopular, but when i come out here today and i talk about social security and medicare, people tell me right off the bat, keep your hands off of my social security and my medicare. their they'll be saying the same thi thing, ten, 15 years from now. >> our panel has been listening and so reminded, but i need say good-bye to you now. thank you so much for joining us this morning. our panel will be around. >> thank you so much for having me. >> absolutely. some are between a rock and a hard place with their constituents in the summer break. we'll talk about that with reince priebus. ♪ [ male announcer ] the parking lot helps by letting us know who's coming.

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joining me is reince priebus, chairman of the republican national committee. thanks for getting up a bit early to talk to us, reince. i'm assuming you heard a little bit of the conversation that preceded you while we got your satellite working. so talk to me about the influence you think the continuation and the implementation of obama care is going have on the 2014 elections. i don't know if you heard congressman clieburn say you're darn right democrats will campaign on it because folks like it. >> i think it's pretty clear that when you have over 30 democrats voting against the president on funding obama care that the real division on any party is on the democratic side of the aisle and yet the news media wants to talk about the republicans debating a tactic as opposed to the fact that you've got the most vulnerable -- or, excuse me, the most vulnerable

democrats running for senate and the house saying, hey, listen, we want to wipe our hands bill of this obama care bill that's a total train wreck and that's their words, not ours although we would join in on that chorus, so i think it's pretty clear. i think it's the tactic that the president is using in delaying the employer's side is all about getting some democrats reelected in 2014 and i think it's very obvious that it isn't a law that people like. i'm in ricine, wisconsin, and these are mostly middle-class families that see obama care as something that's very bad for their families and their futures. >> on the other hand, you do have the things that congressman clieburn talked about that republicans say they're for which is no lifetime limits on health care, payback from insurance companies, keeping your adult children on your health care until they're 26 and

no such thing as pre-existing conditions. if the republicans position themselves as some senators have and certainly some congressmen have, that obama care has to be defunded and that is not implemented and does that not put you all in a place where you have to argue why are you against these things. >> that's exactly what he'll do. >> you're picking out three things out of a bill that lists 5,000. >> they're kind of the most important things to a lot of people. >> no, they're not. but the republicans had -- the republicans had many of those provisions in their bill. i mean, when we ran in november we were talking about pre-existing conditions, kids that were 26 on their parents' plans and this isn't some democratic exclusive or something. the fact is what people don't want are government panels deciding if something was medically necessary. they don't want a government

panel deciding if their doctor deciding if they'll get a quarter for every dollar or service then they'll get a nickel. people know what obama care is. it's european, socialist style-type health care and people don't want it. the real story here is the democrats in the senate and the house, the wants who want to be reelected have turned their back on the president. that's the story not the tactics on the republican side of the aisle. people don't want this. if this was such a great idea then all of the senators that were vulnerable in 2014 would have voted for it and they didn't. and that should tell you everything you want to know. the cynical part of it it says keep it in place so we can run even more on obama care in 2014. >> nonetheless, there are divides in the democratic party, you're right. there are divides in the republican party and that's why god made horse races.

so nothing wrong with that, but you are hearing some folks in the republican saying i would rather shut the government down than to ton fund obama care. politically speaking, highway would a government shutdown play in 2014 for republicans on the ballot? . i think all republicans are unified on one thing and that is defunding, eliminating obama care. so we have total unanimity on that issue and the question is what are the tactics? even if you take the position of a ted cruz or mike leigh, basically what they're saying is we actually are funding 100% of the government except for the small percentage of nondiscretionary -- excuse me, discretionary funding, if you want to continue to fund this monos tros they you've admit

side half broken, then go ahead. the fact that it's on the republican party i just think is spin from the democratic party that you ought not be adopting. i don't know why you're adopting that spin. >> because there had been plenty of congressmen, republicans and senators and republicans saying this will ruin the republican party if we are seeing this, forcing a shutdown of the government. it hasn't worked for you for republicans in the past. so it isn't just democrats daring republicans to do it. it's other republicans saying no, you guys, we always lose when we do this. >> well, i mean, it's not like it happens every year. the fact of the matter is i think that the budgetary effects in the mid-'90s were positive for the republicans. i am not advocating for one tactic or the other, but what wi am advocating for is to set the record straight is for the party unified in delaying and getting

rid of obama care and it's the democrats fighting over the overall picture of whether or not we should keep obama care in place. the president hips has told the american people that obama care right now is half broken. so how do you take taxpayer money and then fund something that the president has admit side half broken. is that reasonable? we think it's not. >> as you know, they're describing that as a technical glitch. you're right. this is about the messaging going forward. i need to quickly turn you to the subject that has occupied so much of your week whether you intended to or not which is your feeling that if nbc runs a mini series, based on fact about hillary clinton or that cnn which has commissioned an outside documentary on hillary clinton runs that, that they will not be eligible for any debates that you all are going to sponsor. "the new york times" is reporting that the nbc clinton

series might likely be produced by fox television studios, that's sort of a sister to fox news. so if we follow your logic, do you think there is a connection to fox news and would they be subject to the same kind of scrutiny? >> first of all, i mean, our party has to quit availing itself to bias moderators and companies that pout television, in this particular case documentaries and mini series about a particular candidate that we all know is gearing up to run for president and that's hillary clinton and so the big question for me, candy is number one, which company is putting it on the air. who is doing the work? i'm not interested if they're using the same caterer or whether they drink diet coke and i'm not boycotting diane lane. >> i am going boycott the company -- i am going to boycott the company that puts the mini series and the documentaries on the air for the american people

to view. i'm not interested in whether they use the same sound studio or whether they use the same set. i don't know the truth of anything you're talking about, but i do know what's very clear is that the company that puts these things on the air to promote hillary clinton, including cnn, is the company that is not going to be involved in our debates. period. very simple. >> the people that write, produce and put together the shows -- >> i'm not going to boycott diane lane. listen, i'm not going boycott diane lane. it's not her fault she decided to take the script. i'm not going boycott the food trucks -- >> the people producing and -- i think it sounds like no is the answer. >> candy, some researcher -- some researcher at cnn or nbc worked for a few days to find some little connection somewhere down the road to -- to bring something into this debate. i think it's totally ridiculous and stupid.

the fact is what channel am i going to tune in to to see the documentary and the mini series that is all about promoting hillary clinton and at this point it sounds like it's going to be cnn and nbc and the fact is that they're not going to be involved in our debates. >> okay. let's have lunch and talk. in the meantime, thank you so much for joining us from the beautiful state of wisconsin. >> thank you. >> our all-star panel weighs in on what the republican chairman just said and the visions in the republican party. more on car i. yep, everybody knows that. well, did you know the ancient pyramids were actually a mistake? uh-oh. geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know.

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we are back with our panel, kevin madden, stephanie cutter, ben ferguson and errol louis. i wish you all could have watched during the commercial break because we had an entire conversation. so looking at reince priebus, chairman of the republican party and james clyburn in those

introduce, next year is going to be a struggle for the headline. is that what we get out of it? >> the chairman gave us the bumper sticker. defund and delay obama care. he says he can run on it. he says he can win on it. it seems doubtful to me and it doesn't seem like the kind of thing that worked on the past and it's called the national election, and it didn't work out for them then. i'm not sure what they think can change other than the fact that people have been getting rebate checks and kids are getting insurance and free mammograms. >> a lot of things have changed and now we're getting to see how the sausage is made with obama care. democrats are realizing this is a huge liability. there are lots of things you can put on your bumper sticker. it sounds good. there are a lot of things you don't want to put on a bumper stecker because it is hurting american jobs. the question is how many employers are cutting people back to 30 hours with below. i've seen it with producers of

my own show where the company says hey, you will have a lot of part-time people around you. we are preparing for obama care and that is hurting american workers right now which is part of the problem of obama care. >> that is a perception problem. the one-year business delay and the one year that's being delayed is the election year. >> well, regardless of whether it's an election year, the one thing that we're all forgetting here is that this is what the business community wanted and -- >> that's not true. >> i'm sorry. one second, came out of a series of the business community so they can get themselves in order to actually implement this lot. in terms of who is -- when the employer mandate gets implemented and it's for businesses with over 50 employees which is more than 98% of businesses in this country. so we're talking about 2% and there are incentives for these businesses and small business tax cuts for them to put insurance in place and most of them already do and this is an anecdotal debate and it's not a

debate that we're seeing happening. >> to me it sounds like the republicans want to push obama care and the democrats are going push and get in the way of everything and they're still fighting existing law. >> obama care is the center of the universe when it comes to the 2014 elections and an obama care discussion is very bad for the democrats and it's very bad for president obama despite what my good friend stephanie cutter will tell you. >> your good friend. >> now i sound like a member of congress. >> across the aisle. >> there are differing opinions within the republican party about how we best go about it, but the republican party is still aligned with the voter anxieties and the voter frustrations and with what this bill is doing to this economy. >> let me just say you all do not want to be responsible for squeezing the time of ernie banks who is up next. we have to have this as a to be continued. i need a one-word answer. >> this is like a cnn debate. >> yes or no, raise your hands.

will there be a government shutdown. >> no. no. >> or is the talk of it just to keep it going. >> not just washington at its best. >> unfortunately, no. >> no chance. >> not going to happen on the vote. >> no. i want republicans to commit suicide. >> help! i want the -- >> stephanie cutter wants a shutdown. >> thank you all. when we return the trouble with baseball. hall of famer ernie banks and ken burns join us next. coca-cola is partnering with nashville parent and charlotte parent magazines, along with the mayors of those cities, in the fit family challenge. a community wide program that offers free classes that inspire families to get out, enjoy moving together, and even track their activity online. it's part of our goal to inspire more than three million people to rediscover the joy of being active this summer.

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joining me now hall another great award winner ken burns, whose nine part series "baseball" tells the story of america's pastime. gentlemen, i can't thank you enough for explaining this to me. what i can't figure out given the effects of this week with the suspension of players for using performance-enhancing drugs. as we know, alexander rodriguez which is fighting his suspension is baseball sincere about cleaning itself up or could they just not ignore this story that was being pursued by florida newspapers? >> well, they're very serious

about this, according to bud sel selig, the commissioner, and the owners. they're really, really serious about this. they want to straighten the game up and make it the game it was many, many, many years ago. >> ken, is that possible? i mean nobody is -- that doesn't play baseball has studied it quite as much as you have. i want to read you something that john cass wrote in the "chicago tribune." he wrote recently a-rod didn't kill baseball and turn it into a cousin of professional wrestling all by himself. he's had help over time, over years and years when baseball got sick and turned to drugs. baseball knew it and baseball let it happen because the lords of baseball wanted to sell tickets. do you agree with that? >> not entirely. i think that's a view. there was a time in the late '90s when people were turning a blind eye, wink wink, to some of this stuff but i believe major league baseball woke up. i think bud has handled this

exactly right. he didn't go too far. my heart tells me in the best interests of baseball to get rid of a-rod altogether but he understood that that would disrupt a partnership that has taken place over the last decade between the owners and the players in cleaning up this game. remember, it's not the trouble with baseball, this is still the third worst scandal in baseball. the second is the betting scandal. that never -- that's not happening anymore because the players make too much money. the first was the exclusion of african-americans and the presence of ernie banks tells you that was also taken care of with the advent of jackie robinson. so let's go back to now the most pressing thing. this is the good news is that they have rounded up some of the best players in the game and levied extraordinary fines and suspensions and the players are going along with this because they understand it's in the best interests of the game to have it cleaned up. our big worry must be just that

those chemists that know how to mask these chemicals and get them out of the body and are always one step ahead of the testers, but for the last decade, i can assure you that major league baseball, which was once the worst of the professional supports in policing its own drug policy is now the very, very best and i think mlb and bud selig as commissioner have handled it just right. >> this must have pained you. >> yes, it has. >> watching this unfold. really it's been unfolding since w '91 when the first bans were put in effect in the early '90s. do you believe that the players now view this differently? it seemed during sammy sosa, mark mcgwire chase of the home run record, everybody -- it was open talk that they were all on performance-enhancing drugs. that must have hurt you. >> it really did. it really hurt me. and these kids today, candy, i'm like a father to them. i knew alex rodriguez many years

ago when he first came here. he broke my record for home runs in texas. >> do you think that's fair? if he was using performance-enhancing drugs? is it fair that he broke your record? was that a fair fight? >> well, my thing is we don't know. i don't know about the testing and all that. you know, he was accused of it, but i don't know what he was tested and proven that he was on anything. but i like him. he's like a son to me. most all of these kids, i really, really liked him, enjoyed them. i know about their families, i know about their children. >> i want to ask you about the statistics. ken, i'm going to ask you the same question after i get mr. banks to talk about it. raymond daniel burke wrote in the "baltimore sun" talking about the statistics over time your records versus those of alex rodriguez being an example. and he said statistical comparison serves as a

generational bond, and the integrity of those statistics is the adhesive that gives meaning to the experiences shared across time that are the game's narratives. is an asterisk by the name of a record breaker who has used performance-enhancing drugs enough? because that wasn't an even competition across the decades, was it? >> no, it was not. but, you know, it's just that. they want to put an asterisk on barry bonds and hank aaron and all of that. but i don't know. i don't know how they could deal with that. but me personally, these kids, they play baseball, they love the game, they play hard. they want to play a long time. >> they cheated. >> well, that's the word is that they cheated, but, you know, i haven't seen anything. i talked to barry bonds when he was going for the record. i've been to see him. talked to him, visited with him, went to san francisco. i've just been with him a lot.

and i think a lot of him. >> hard for you to believe? >> yes, it is. >> ken, last word to you. >> well, this is the central question. you know, this is the only game in which statistics really, truly matter. only the football in other words can tell you how many yards passing tom brady has. but we all know, the whole culture knows that the central landmark of those. but if you go back to 1919, it says that the cincinnati reds won the world series. there was no asterisk. we know the chicago white sox, now called the black sox, threw that game to gamblers. what the statistics tell you is that they're not the whole story. we have to tell stories about those statistics. and that's the joy of this game as well, and so we still have to sit our grandchildren on our knees and talk to that steroid era and the p.e.d. era and other things. but the good news out of all this, the good news is that despite the thafact that it muse

difficult for ernie to watch a home run record fall when he knows something fishy is going on, basically balls went out of the park a little more frequently in that case, but the great records, the 56 consecutive games, the hitting .406 by ted williams in '41 and joe dimaggio's 56-game hitting streak also in '41, pitchers winning 25 or 30, 35 games, all of which could have been possible, didn't. so a .300 hitter means the same thing to my four daughters as it does to me as it did to my great great grandfather who fought in the civil war. >> that's that generational thing we were talking about. >> it's still there. >> ken burns, ernie banks, thank you. and thank you for watching "state of the union." i'm candy crowley in washington. fareed zakaria gps starts next. but first, an update on a surprising end to an awful story. my mantra?

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this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria. on today's show, first