tv CNN Newsroom CNN September 8, 2013 11:00am-12:01pm PDT
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where the taliban is and they could use some help as well. the answer was c., richard nixon historically known for his first visit to china but the first sitting president to visit russia in may of 1972. nixon traveled there before as vice president in 1959, when he took part in the infamous kitchen debate with soviet premier kushof. hello, everyone. i'm fredericka whitfield. a look at these top stories this hour. top administration officials release the motivation behind the images of the disturbing attack in syria and why they're convinced the tapes are authentic. u.s. secretary of state john kerry meets with arab ministers overseas and where they stand on
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a potential strike in syria. ail along, syria's border of lebanon, a refugee crisis escalated with thousands of people living in filth for shelter and forced to pay money to stay safe. president obama is getting ready to make a major pitch to congress and to the american people on why the u.s. should launch an attack on syria. tomorrow night, he'll give interviews to journalists from six television networks and cable including our own wolf blitzer. on tuesday night he lays out his case to the american people from a speech from the white house at 9:00 p.m. eastern. meanwhile, u.s. secretary of state john kerry is talking about why the administration showed a senate committee extremely graphic videos of a
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suspected ser ran gas attack. they are extremely graphic. men and women and children all seen convulsing on the ground struggling to breathe and some are dead. he said it's important congress knows what's at stake before they decide whether to strike on syria. >> those videos make it clear to people these are real human beings, real parents being affected in ways unacceptable to anybody anywhere by any standards. that it is the united states of america that has always stood with others to say, we will not a lou this. this is not our values. this is not who we are. >> cnn's barbara starr is at the pentagon. what makes u.s. officials believe these tapes are authentic? >> the indications are multi multi-fredericka. first, they say the videos were
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shot from multiple angles and things matched up. the outside of these locations mat matched overhead imagery taken from satellites and they had survivors, victims who survive ed verifying the account. there seems to be very little question amongst most members of congress that this did not take as represented, that there was a certainly atrocity that happened here. the question that lingers is really, how much did bashar al assad, the leader of syria, really know about this? did he himself order this? that's the evidence the administration has not yet made public and not clear yet if they have it. can they tie bashar al assad to this? they know, they believe very strongly it is only the regime that could have carried this out, only the regime has the weapons, the capability, the troops and the actual chemical stockpiles to do it. they don't believe it was the
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opposition, they don't believe it was al qaeda elements inside syria. they believe it was the regime. they say it i don't matter if assad can't be directly tied to it, he is the leader of the regime and will continue to hold him responsible. >> barbara starr, thank you so muc much. >> to the push in congress. right now the majority of members have not made up their minds. the president has just a small window to convince them military action is justified. keeping a close eye on the vote count and opinions of lawmakers who could either deliver the president a victory on this critical issue or a crushing defeat. what are you hearing? >> reporter: so much on the line. barbara was talking about those videos, we know some lawmakers have seen the video that shows the aftermath of what the obama administration believes was that august chemical attack. and more lawmakers will be shown it at briefs open to all house
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members tomorrow, all senators later in the week. when chief of staff dennis mcdonough said that video should a matter the decision-makers. >> in terms of turning a blind eye, i hope before any member of congress makes his decision how to vote, they look at that video you all made available too the world yesterday. take a look at that. if members of congress want to say there should be consequences for this action they have to vote yes on this action. >> for those who talked about watching the video, it is horrible, they agree, difficult to watch. no one said it changed their mind at this point how they feel about supporting a strike on syria. take a look at the latest cnn vote tally. we'll start with the senate, the first to vote where the opinions so far the most evenly divided. 25 yes, 20 no, 55 undecided. probably take 60 yay votes to
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mass the resolution and could be as early as wednesday. look at the house. more clear disagreement with 24 members right now supporting the resolution, 123 say they are going to vote no. a vast majority still undecided. the house is back in session tomorrow afternoon, fredericka, after an august break. guess what they'll be talking abou about. >> will many talk about, those on the fence? >> congressman elijah cummings from maryland said 77% of his constituents voted for president obama. 90% of the calls coming into his district right now are against striking syria. >> my constituents are concerned about the what's next. we need to know the possible consequences of the strike and if it will possibly lead to a scenario where america gets more
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deeply involved in the civil war in syria. >> you think about congressman cum, so far he has had three briefs on syria and still puts himself in the undecided column. >> thanks so much. emily schmidt in washington. u.s. secretary of state john kerry is very busy trying to convince the national community to take military action against syri syria. >> what we are seeking is to enforce the stad with respect to the use of chemical weapons. we are not seeking to become engaged to or party to or take over syria's civil war. >> he met with arab league foreign ministers today and the discussion on syria was on the agenda. foreign reporter alice is live traveling with secretary kerry.
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kerry will be meeting with who today? >> he'll be meeting with palestinian president mahmoud abbas. this trip was supposed to deal with the middle east peace process, as you know, secretary kerry has devoted a considerable amount of time but the crisis in syria has certainly eclipsed the middle east peace process. he's trying to do both at the same time. he met with the arab league. he seemed to get a lot of support in the meeting. he's looking to some of these countries to signton that j 20 statement that came out of that meeting friday. to sign onto the g-20 statement. they're trying to get more countries to sign on. secretary kerry said in a press conference today saudi arabia supports u.s. strikes against syria. i think he's expecting some other countries to show their public support in the next 24 hours. >> elise, what does that mean
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saudi arabia supports u.s. strikes? that the arab league supports the u.s. mission? that the arab league also agrees or believes chemical weapons were used. are either of those committing to military force as well as alongside the u.s.? 0. >> saudi arabia has been one of the strongest opponents of military action and made statements. prince bandar, the former ambassador to washington has been traveling the world to drum up support for some type of military campaign. thick you might see saudi arabia, whether it's base, overflight rights, they haven't announced anything yet but i think secretary kerry is looking for something like that. i think some of the other countries will be a little bit more private about what they'd be willing to contribute. qatar today said -- the qatar foreign minister said his country supported intervention
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and looking what they can do. what secretary kerry said he hopes in the next 24 hours more countries would be signingt totn signing on to that statement from st. petersburg and seeing what they can do. in the next 24 hours, we will know what they conditian do. >> thanks. tomorrow, president obama will sit down with wolf blitzer about the intervention in syria. it airs at 6:00 p.m. eastern time on cnn. has the crisis in syria inspired republican congressman peter king to officially announce a run for the white house in 2016? we'll ask him in just a moment. the humble back seat. we believe it can be the most valuable real estate on earth. ♪ that's why we designed the subaru forester from the back seat forward.
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the horrifying videos from syria showing victims of alleged chemical weapons attack have now been posted on a senate website and will be played at house and senate meetings this week all part of an effort by the obama administration to win support for a military strike against syria. jake tapper has details. >> videos that show what the intelligence community describes as victims of a sarin gas take. we should warn viewers that the videos are quite disturbing. in a classified briefing on thursday, members of the senate
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intelligence committee were shown these 13 video clips by the intelligence community. stunning videos, upsetting showing what the intelligence community says are verified authentic clips of a sarin gas take in syria. suffering children, convulsing adults. and what look to be corpses. the obama administration, struggling to build support for limited strikes against the assad regime put the dvd together at the request of intelligence committee chair woman senator dianne feinstein. had asked cia to prepare a dvd which would have specific instances of evidence, largely victims, and what we see means. it's horrendous. so we are having that dvd multiplied. we're going to get it out to
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every member of the senate and possibly members of the house. >> reporter: the senators were told there were multiple reasons the intelligence community believed the clips to be authentic. they were shot from multiple angles. the outdoor photos matched overhead imagery and corroborated by survivors. so far only members and staff of the senate and intelligence committee have seen this video. the house is expected to see the clips perhaps in a classified briefing monday led by secretary of state john kerry and defense secretary chuck hagel and national security advisor, dr. susan rice. while some in the video can be heard blaming the assad regime, it does not prove the assad regime carried out those attacks. those claims by president obama comes from other information not shared with the public or confirmed by cnn. while the president is confident in his case with the public says he understands why some even
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after seeing these images are skeptical. >> i can see why people are skeptical even after seeing this question this. the further we get from the horrors of that, the easier it is to rationalize not making tough choices. >> these upsetting videos are being used to convince a skeptical congress military action is needed against assad and his regime. however horrific the images are they do not prove or disprove a military strike would not result in even more horror. dave tapper, cnn, washington. >> this programming note, chief washington correspondent, jake tapper, goes in-depth on syria in a special report, "crisis in syria decision point" 11:00 p.m. monday eastern time. will the release of these videos help president obama's case for a military strike in syria? he still has a very difficult
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vote in congress ahead of him. new york congressman peter king joins me now a member of the congressional homeland security committee. welcome to you. is this correct you told a new hampshire radio interviewer you are running for president in 2016? >> no, fredericka. what i said was i've been invited to new hampshire a number of times by people who asked me to consider it and i've been there speaking to several groups on behalf of local republican candidates. i don't have a campaign committee and not solicited endorsements or contributions. i'm still at the stage i'm just listening and primarily going to new hampshire to see what's happening on the ground and at the invitation of local leaders up there. even though that tweet from the show said that, you go to their website they specifically say i reaffirmed i don't have an exploratory committee and looking before traveling to new hampshire. if i do make a decision, it will
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be a year, year and a half at least. >> you still are entertaining the idea and in large part why you are making visits to new hampshire. >> i've been invited by local officials. once my name was put out i said i was willing to consider it at one time in the future, i've been invited up a number of times. the reception's been good. that's a long way off. >> let's talk about the immediate syria and the crisis there. have you been afforded the opportunity to watch these videos since they've been released on our air yesterday and the intelligence and senate committee has seen them as well? >> i have watched them on cnn. i'm on the house and intelligence committee and we're getting a briefing at 3 cloak tomorrow. i'm expecting at that time we will see the videos and whatever the cia and administration have to show us at 3:00 tomorrow afternoon. >> what do you look forward for that video tomorrow besides what
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you're seeing for yourself unfiltered, what are you hoping to get? >> i intend to vote yes even though i have strong criticism and doubt how the president has handled this. he has not been enough of a commander in chief and vacillated too much. as far as killing, the torture and horrible deaths those children had to endure is almost beyond human comprehension. that alone should not make this act -- i'm not saying that in a hard-hearted way. we could have atrocities in countries all over the world. we have to look to see if there's an american national interest. i think there is. the axis between syria and iran, capacity for chemical nuclear weapons and nuclear weapons with iran and security of our allies, jordan and israel is why we should act. >> help people understand why you say you will vote yes, at the same time you're very critical of the president and his handling of this. why undermine his leadership and
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the way he's approaching this but you say you agree with the mission. >> first of all, i want people to know i am not blindly following president obama. the reason i say that is, to me, it makes my position stronger as far as a yes vote. even though i'm being critical of the president, if i support the decision it's because i feel this is so important to our national security. that's why i'm supporting it. it's not because of any feelings i have toward the president. it's because i believe it's essential the united states take responsive action here otherwise it will hurt us far more in the future. i cannot guarantee this attack plan will work but i can guarantee if we take no action it will come back to haunt us in the future as iran become as far more power in the region along with syria. >> you don't like that the president has deferred to congress to vote on it yet as a member of congress you have the opportunity to weigh in on it. does it seem as though the president really can't win?
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if he were to go it alone without congressional approval, there would be criticism, if he does get congressional approval there's criticism. >> that goes with the job as commander in chief. i believe as commander in chief he has the right to launch these attacks as dwight eisenhower did, ronald reagan did. if he wanted congress involved he should have said that from the start. it was year ago he spoke about the red line and two weeks ago the red line was crossed and 9 or 10 days ago he said the red line was crossed and in sweden saying it wasn't his red line crossed. i'm saying it sends anne certain message if you want the 218 votes behind you the president has to make it clear he believes his own policy. if he seems to back away or
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vacillating, that's note way you inspire congress. i can't imagine harry truman or dwight eisenhower, register doing that. you have to expect the president to follow what he says he has the right to act. >> what does he have to do so get america on board? >> it is important to show the video that he's showing a horror in the world and then talk about the national security talking about jordan and israel and if we can't stop syria with a red line we can't stop iran with a red line and that is a threat to the united states and america in particular. >> thank you for your time, peter king. >> thank you. thousands of syrians flee their homeland each day, they're crowding into refugee camps in wording conditions and some
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conditions are quite appalling. we will go to a refugee camp on the syrian border. aaah! jessica! whoa! your friend's a rate sucker. her bad driving makes car insurance more expensive for the rest of us. try snapshot from progressive. snap it in and get a discount based on your good driving. [pop!] stop paying for rate suckers! try snapshot free at progressive.com.
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more than 2 million syrians have fled their homeland crowding into refugee camps and bordering countries. chief medical correspondent sanjay gupta is just outside the border. >> reporter: the constant shelling was becoming too much. it was after this occurred to her middle son, 4-year-old yousef, she knew she had to leave. it was an explosion she told me, that led to these burns. she packed up her three son, what little she had and traveled 12 hours, mostly by foot, to arrive at this camp, one of the largest in the mccaw valley on the syrian border.
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t the youngest son, allah, is 8 months old and spent half his life as a refugee. he's severely malnourished even though he's breast-fed. how difficult is it to get food? it is difficult to breastfeed when the mom herself hasn't had enough to need. today, they get drastically needed medical attention for polio and malaria. make no meistake, lebanon is buckling under the refugees arriving here. there are some 420,000 registered refugees. the doctors believe the number to be more than twice that. more than one out of every four people in lebanon is a refugee, he tells me. it is the people living in these surrounding communities now sending a message to the refugees in these valley camps. this will never be your home. this can never be your home.
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the children's smiles be lie a particularly awful way of life. their story is one of fleeing the violence of their home country and then not being wanted in their adopted one. after two years, there are no fixed water facilities or a system of sanitation. instead, just a steady stream of sua sewage snaking its way through this camp. they have lost everything, their possession possessions, their dignity, their permanence. to simply live like this, refugees are required to pay $100 a month to the town sheriff. the only way to make it work is to send these young kids into the fields to work for just $2 a day. it esheart wrenching. within these camps, there is the constant friction between two groups. those who support the syrian regime and those who hate it. but they do share something in common. they all want to go home.
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arkin and her three sons, they can't wait to leave. >> fred, if you look at lebanon as a whole, you suddenly added so many more people now in the country. almost one out of every four being a refugee. you can see the toll it takes on the country as a whole. look at this family and what their lives are like. they're being asked to pay amounts of money to live that makes it even more expensive to live as a refugee than simply going back home to syria. regardless what happens over the next few days, weeks or months, that is their reality and that's what's driving their think and decisions. fred, back to you. >> terribly sad, thanks so much, sanjay. every 15 seconds a syrian becomes a refugee. according to the u.n. refugee agency there is no end in sight. you can make an impact for more than 2 million refugees. go online for a list of the organizations working in the region and looking for your kind of help.
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c cnn.com/impact. prince andrew was out for a walk on the grounds of buckingham palace a few nights ago. i'll tell you why he was stopped by police and almost arrested. that story and today's other headlines two minutes away. we'll be right back. it starts with something little, like taking a first step. and then another. and another. and if you do it. and your friends do it. and their friends do it... soon we'll be walking our way to awareness, support and an end to alzheimer's disease. and that? that would be big. grab your friends and family and start a team today. register at alz.org it's where you email, yshop, even bank.e here. but are you too comfortable? these days crime can happen in a few keystrokes. american express can help protect you.
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i'm fred fred, three things crossing the newsdesk. secretary of state john kerry met with arab foreign ministers today pushing for their support in a military strike against syria. next, he will meet with the british foreign secretary. number two, president obama will talk to all six television networks including cnn about the alleged chemical weapons attack in syria. his interview with our own wolf blitzer will air at 6:00 p.m. eastern time in the "situation room." number three, a few days after a break-in at buckingham palace, police thought they had caught another intruder. they approached a man walking in the palace's garden and asked him to verify his identity. it turned out to be that intruder was actually prince andrew, the brother of prince charles. andrew was born in buckingham palace and still keeps his office there. our joe carter has an update on the men's u.s. open final. first, a huge day in college football. here's joebleacher
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report. >> looks like the big house lived up to its big name. more than 115,000 fans watched michigan beat notre dame last night. by comparison the super bowl attendance record, 105,000. look at this great shot. all kinds of people out there. when ohio state comes to down the end of november, this will be a new attendance record set for those two schools. what a great way for michigan to show off to the country. they have so much pride. michigan quarterback, devon gardner, five touchdowns, threw four, ran 1. 41-30. they have won four straight at home against notre dame. georgia quarterback, aaron murray known to choke in big games. against south carolina he finally did not. passed 400 yards and threw four touchdown passes and georgia
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final finally passes a three-win lo losing streak against south carolina and means georgia takes early control against the sec east. the men's final set at the u.s. open. two familiar faces, djokovic against rafael. that men's final is on monday. it's about to be a huge weekend for bruno mars. last night, he host eed "snl." he will be the halftime performer at the upcoming super bowl. he has to either bundle up or dance faster. the big game will be held outside in january. not quite florida. >> brr. he has to wear a court. an open sports preview. tennis star rafael nadal hopes to overcome knee problems as he hopes to win that u.s. title
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tomorrow. we caught up with him. >> on the island of cozumel, a relaxed nadal enjoying mexico. >> reporter: did you ever think you had to retire? did it ever get that bad? >> i am positive. that's part of our careers. we are professional outlets. we bring our body to the limit. >> reporter: when you feel the pain in your knee when you're playing, does it affect you mentally? >> sure. when you break a leg, you break an arm, you know that you have, for example, six months. in this kind of injuries, a little bit harder because you really don't know what's happening sometimes. >> reporter: while some feared the sun was setting on rafael nadal's career, now many have hopes a new chapter is just beginning.
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ahead for the president and congress on syria. will the white house get the votes it needs for action on syria. in the senate out of 100 members, only 25 senators say yes. 20 no votes, the rest up in the air. in the house, only 24 yes votes, 123 no and 286 unknown or undecided on how they will vote. >> candy crowley is cnn chief political correspondent and anchor of state of the union. the president sits down with wolf blitzer tomorrow and talks to other cable and networks. and talks to america tuesday evening.
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you talked to the chief of staff yesterday. did the president say it will give more detailed evidence syria's government used chemical weapons? >> with the caveat i'm not sure that particular question is definitive how people vote, there are questions by some people, how do we know this chemical attack came from the assad regime? various members of the president's cabinet including secretary of state kerry who said we have beyond a reasonable doubt information that the assad regime certainly was tied to this launch. take a listen to what the chief of staff of the president said to me. >> do we have a picture or irrefoughtable, beyond a reasonable doubt evidence? this is not a court of law and intelligence does not work that way. what we do know and know the common sense test says he is responsible for this, he should be held to account. >> so if the president hears that capitol hill says no to
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little action, will the president leave it there? >> that's the big question, isn't it? there are certainly -- it's not a question the administration wants to answer right now, will you go ahead even if congress tells you no? because obviously if he said, yeah, i will, that's kind of a free pass for a lot of people who would like to vote no on this. what the president really wants is congress behind him on this? i have to tell you the outlook in the house seems pretty bleak, according to some of the democrats i've talked to who actually are supportive of the president. it's -- short of some big dramatic thing of the president, i don't think he can win this one in the house. then, what does he do? they have clearly left their options open. we have heard official after official all the way up to the president say we don't think we need approval from congress but we want it anyway meaning the president feels he can act alone if he wants to. when they have outlined the stakes, particularly secretary
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kerry outlined the stakes here and says history will judge us harshly if we don't do this, he likened assad to hitler. when you raise those stakes up, it seems almost impossible the president would then say, but i can't do it. we'll see. they certainly haven't shown their hand but they have left their options open. >> candy crowley, host of the state of the union. thanks so much. >> thanks. it's back. "crossfire," an all new version of the political show. join our hosts. "crossfire" returns to cnn monday night, 6:30 eastern time. if the u.s. has to go it alone in syria, what would be the most effective approach? in a minute, our military ants wiants -- analysts tells us why he thinks the president may have to widen his options to have an impact. ! ,
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what are the options now for president obama on syria. even if he does win congressional approval for a military strike, will the u.s. have to go it alone? what would that mean for u.s. military options? i want to bring in military colonel rick francona, a cnn military analyst and he also spent three years in syria as a military attache in dam mass sc scas. you and secretary kerry met and
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others are supportive but not providing arsenals. how strategic or helpful would it be for saudi arabia to offer support? >> it would be nice if we had arab support somewhere. they don't have a lot of capabilities in the standoff move, launching cruise missiles. the saudi arabias don't have a lot of capability but nice to have token support. right now, looks like just us, one french frigate, a defensive ship. nice to have more involved. makes a nicer show in the arab world. we will be portrayed as the americans once again, imperialist, doing things once again to an arab country. >> are you talking about moral support or offering air fields or perhaps ports for our military? >> exactly. exactly. material support, some sort
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sof -- put some aircraft on alert, do something, let us use the air fields, even go beyond the operation. if it goes beyond standoff cruise missile attacks, nice to have saudi airplanes up there. >> how much of a handicap is it if we don't get that? >> we can do this by ourselves. we certainly have the capability to do this. it's what the president wants to do, what he wants to accomplish, how much broader he wants to do. f four destroyers with cruise missiles can do some damage. we can bring aircraft in there. it depends what the goal is. if it's to defer and degrade, we probably need more than the cruise missiles. >> what more besides the cruise missiles? because so much has been talked about with tomahawks. now much more comprehensive, certainly looks like a mission more committed, maybe a lengthier one? >> certainly.
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you could have sea launch cruise missiles and tomahawk, and air launch but cruise missile technology. if you want to get where he's stored a lot of high value delivery systems, scud missiles then you have to drop bombs delivered from syrian airspace. now we get into another range, are you willing to put american pilots over syria? >> and might that potentially spread chemical weapons? >> absolutely. >> thank you. the pope now praying for peace in syria and tens of thousands answering his call. in just a few minutes we talk with our vatican analyst just how influential the pope could be in this crisis. the humble back seat. we believe it can be the most valuable real estate on earth.
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pope francis has been calling on catholics around the world to pray for syria. he's been holding vigil in vatican city telling the faithful the search for peace is longer and requires patience. the pope asked the catholics to fast in solidarity for syrians. pope francis has also been very vocal against any kind of military action, u.s. or otherwise, in syria, even writing to the russian president, vladimir putin. has the pope, to your knowledge, received any kind of acknowledgement from putin? >> i don't think there's been any direct acknowledgement from putin. i think he succeeded to making the point the world the vatican and catholic church have launched an all out diplomatic press to stop this intervention in syria.
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in the diplomatic letter to putin and last night's prayer vigil making it the largest anti-war gathering in the west since this began, the vatican called in all the ambassadors credited to the vatican, 180 countries including all the western powers trying to lay out the case against going to war in syria. what's underneath this is the vatican has both a humanitarian and pastoral concern. at the humanitarian level they're concerned this could lead to a wider conflict and stroke islamist extremism and they're worried about the christian minority in syria, the population of 22 million. the vatican believes and this is being amplified by what the christians themselves are saying they could become the first victims of regime change. for all those reasons, i think the indications of the vatican are pope francis and his team will continue this diplomatic press to stop the west from going to war. >> interesting, clearly the pope
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very influential among catholics. one has to wonder, i understand many catholic leaders are taking from his lead and actually sending petitions to members of congress. how influential or how much of a difference is that expected to make? >> yeah. the leaders of the u.s. bishops conference have written both to president obama and to every member of congress to amplify the pope's message. let's roll the clock back 10 years ago. john paul ii we expect will be named a saint sometime next year launched an all out diplomatic campaign to stop the u.s. from going to iraq. was that effective? one level, no. he didn't stop the war. on the other hand, it did significantly improve his standing in the islamic world and created lines of communication still open today and the pope's leadership some say helped create a wider clash of civilizations between the
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pope and the rest of the world. mate not stop the obama administration but may position him as a credible in ter lock cu lar for the west and the islamic world that could be helpful down the line. >> thanks so much. good to see you. u.s. senator john mccain is endorsing president obama's plan to strike syria but things could go horribly wrong for the commander in chief. up next, why mccain is bringing up impeachment. [ male announcer ] don't miss red lobster's endless shrimp.
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senator john mccain is sending a strong warning to president obama aboutvention in syria during an interview. he said the president bungled, his words, the handling of the syria crisis and the deploying of troops would have huge consequences and even says obama could face impeachment if military action results in american boots on the ground. >> no one wants american boots on the ground, nor will there be american boots on the ground because there would be an impeachment of the president if they did that. >> mccain has endorsed the president's plan for military strikes. we've got much more straight ahead in the "newsroom" and it all starts right now.
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hello. welcome to the second hour. i'm fredericka whitfield a look at the top stories. the obama administration speaking out about the disturbing videos of the attack in syria and says it's urgent congress sees the images. we'll tell you why. secretary of state john kerry pushes for action abroad and reveals information where a key u.s. ally stands on a potential allied strike in syria. members of armed forces go online to oppose a strike. descent within the military. straight ahead. secretary of state john kerry is very busy trying to get th
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