past few days. even though most roads have been completely washed away. thank you so much for watching "state of the union." i'm candy crowley in washington. "fareed zakaria gps" starts right now. this is "gps" welcome to all of you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. we have an important show for you today starting with the syrian crisis. first up, two foreign policy legends. henry kissinger and zbigniew brzezinski on the latest diplomatic moves over syria. did putin play obama? what will assad do during this intermission and who will get the last word? then richard butler, the man once tasked with getting saddam hussein to give up his chemical weapons on the way to make it

work this time with assad. also, the three things you might want to know about syria before we bomb. or whether or not we bomb. and from civil war to homeless wars, anthony bourdain on a different kind of war in the middle east. who makes the most magic with chickpeas? first, here's my take. whatever the twisted path by design or accident, the obama administration has ended up in a better place on syria than looked possible even days ago. the agreement forged by john kerry and the russian foreign minister is just the first step of course the syrian government has to cooperate but it will face pressure from moscow to do so. on hearing of the agreement, some have reacted with dismay. this agreement does not remove bashar al assad power and does nothing to stop his regime and brutal suppression and does nothing to end the humanitarian tragedy in that country. it is true the agreement is not

designed to stop the warfare and suffering in syria but what exactly would do that? do we know that a u.s. strategy, a military intervention to topple the dictator and change the regime would actually end human suffering in syria? let's recall a recent example when the u.s. believed that peace and liberty and prosperity would flourish. it was of course in iraq and what happened was very different. the deposed regime and supporters fought back fiercely, the sectarian lines of iraqi society turned into battle lines, islamic militants including al qaeda poured into the country often funded by neighboring countries. the result was a ten-year civil war with at minimum 130,000 dead and potentially more than 250,000 dead iraqi civilians and at least 1.5 million refugees most of whom have not come back to iraq. from a humanitarian point of

view, american intervention and regime change substantially worsened the humanitarian nightmare of iraq. now, i don't believe that the example of iraq should color all american foreign policy but surely when people suggest that washington should militarily intervene and perhaps depose a dictator in an arab country that is literally next door to iraq which is composed of a minority regime with an opposition to that regime that also has within it several islamic militant groups, it's fair to look at the iraqi example and ask what happened? do we have any clear reason to believe that the struggle for power in syria would be any different than that in iraq? that american military intervention in this case would just stop all of the fighting and produce peace? don't we have to think through the likely consequences of american intervention before we

propose action? president obama mobilized world attention about chemical weapons. there's a chance still small that a process begins that monitors and evens destroys all of syria's chemical arsenal. almost certainly such weapons won't be used again by the assad regime. that's more than could have been achieved through air strikes which are likely to have destroyed such weapons bombing chemical weapons facilities almost always releases toxins into the atmosphere. that's why they are not targeted. this agreement doesn't end the human suffering. it doesn't rid the world of an evil dictator. but it is a step forward in a terrible crisis. for more on this, go to cnn.com/fareed and read my "the washington post" column this week and let's get started. you have heard my take. now let's hear from two of america's eldest statesman.

henry kissinger was secretary of state under presidents richard nixon and gerald ford and is now chair of an international consulting firm and zbigniew brzezinski served as national security adviser under president jimmy carter. he's now a professor at the johns hofpkins school of international studies. henry, let me start with you. what exactly was the russian motivation here and sort of how did they pull it off? you have met with vladimir putin more than any american stretching back over a decade. what do you think is putin's game here? >> putin in my opinion considers radical islam his biggest security threat.

but that's not for the united states to unilaterally determine how the situation in the region will develop. so when the administration found itself in the extremely difficult and potentially embarrassing position of having to request military action refused, he saw an opportunity to perhaps get into step with us by easing an immediate american difficulty but solving a common problem. in my observation, his biggest fear in syria was that it would lead to a radicalization of the

region and not so much to protect any one individual. >> do you think that russia can be trusted to have the same interests as the united states here? should we trust what is coming out of moscow these days? >> we don't have the same interests but we have in some cases compatible interests. i think the russians were concerned as henry pointed out that the region might explode and this will affect also russia's position particularly in the caucuses where there is resentment against russian domination gaining momentum and becoming more violent. secondly, he saw an opportunity to diminish america's standing as the power in the region. the fact of the matter is our agenda in the region in declining but we're still the main player. russia saw an opportunity to actually become also significant player in this game by arranging

something that perhaps will temper the dynamic toward a regional upheaval and will consolidate russian influence with syrians, with the iranians, and perhaps even with others. there was recently a rather mysterious visit to moscow of a high level adversary from saudi arabia. not that saudi arabia is turning to moscow but that moscow is perhaps a significant player. th it is compatible in my view with our interests because i see our involvement in the syrian affair as something very unfortunate, unnecessary and i don't think an attack on syria to strike ats at chemical assets would be very productive for us. it would not solve the problem. it might ignite a wider regional explosion. so i think there is some compatibility between us and the russians at this stage.

>> there is one area where people say there's a big disagreement which is russia wants assad to stay in power. the president set aside moscow. >> the president didn't have a strategy to make him go. we have seen the consequences of that. i think maybe there will be some formula that will resolve that dilemma. for example, assad's term expires next year. this issue is not going to be solved so quickly. perhaps something can be contrived if there's movement in the dialogue so that aspect becomes somewhat contained and pacified and begins to lead to understandings. >> henry, there was an op-ed by a strategic analyst who argued that it does not serve america's interests to have a kind of violent regime change of the

assad regime because what is likely to follow is chaos and radical islam nor does it serve our interests for assad to consolidate power and this stalemate helps american interests. what do you think of that theory? >> i think it was a mistake to define the issue in syria as removal of one leader. the issue in syria is starting conflict between shiites and sunnis and sunnis revolt against a shiite minority dominated syria and most of the other minorities are supporting the shia position. so the best position for the united states is to work on a transition government and not

make it dependent on removal of the syrian leader especially not make it dependent at the very beginning of the process. and from the beginning putin had said that the immediate removal of assad would lead to chaos. that's probably a correct sentiment. >> do you think that this is at the end of the day a success in foreign policy terms or has the obama administration snatched some kind of victory from the jaws of defeat? >> i don't think it's a victory for either side first of all. the russians are avoiding something that they would not like to see happen in the region. we are prevented from doing something which would be equally damaging to the region but worse probably for us, namely some pointless military strike

dramatizes america's involvement in the war and probably an escalation of the effort. our efforts were misconceived. badly calculated. this gets us off the hook. we can't use force anymore overtly unless assad is stupid enough to use chemical weapons again, which i doubt. >> henry kissinger, zbigniew brzezinski, thank you as always. next on "gps" how in the world do you get a dictator to actually give up his chemical weapons? we'll talk to man who did just that. richard butler on his struggles with saddam hussein. umpkin pie and apple crisp back for a limited time. see? you really do call the shots. ♪ yoplait. it is so good. constipated? yeah. mm. some laxatives like dulcolax can cause cramps.

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an arab dictator agreed to get rid of his chemical weapons. now how does one actually make that happen? that was richard butler's job the last time around. in the late 1990s, butler was the head of the u.n. special commission charged with disarming saddam hussein of his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction. how did it work? did it work? we'll ask him. so drawing on that experience, what would you say is going to be the single most important

thing to look at when we address this issue, assume that there's some kind of deal and you actually have an inspections process? >> fareed, the first thing required is an honest and accurate declaration by syria of exactly what it has. intelligence reports that are now in the public arena suggests that they have 150 tons or so of sarin for example. >> how much is that to give us a sense? >> it's massive. it's a massive quantity. syria is widely regarded as one of the largest individual states possessing chemical weapons in the world. now, the first thing is that honest declaration. do we have a chance of getting that? not sure. let's assume that it is more or less honest. what then has to happen and this is the second step, independent inspectors have to be able to verify that declaration.

that's a difficult process but i assure you that it can be done. provided syria gives complete access to the materials, the labs where they were made and processed, the weapons systems into which the agent was loaded, and above all, the individuals who made this stuff. inspectors have to be able to talk to them. what did you do in that factory? what went in and what came out and so on. and then it may be possible to get a pretty accurate handle on whether that initial declaration has been honest or not. >> so now you have this declaration. how do you actually begin to figure out where they are because figuring out where they are depends on the regime. you will be invited by the regime in the syrian assad

government and then you would have to be protected by the regi regime. >> inspectors would have to go there and that implies protection of them and many voices are starting to be raised now and pointing out that could be incredibly difficult in the present circumstances in syria. >> you described it once or twice i remember reading at the time as a cat and mouse game. a game that iraqis would sometimes play with you. what would happen? >> well, they would tell us that materials were in a certain location. we would seek to go to that location and they would delay us or when we got there the materials wouldn't be there and they would say, sorry, we forgot to tell you we made a mistake. they were moved to another place. it was a game to the point where we tried to listen to some of the communications, you know, walkie-talkie stuff and we sometimes heard them say move

those materials. the inspectors are coming and so on. it was a game. one doesn't know what will happen in the future and whether that sort of game wouldn't be played again. >> you actually think it was the inspections process that largely worked. it's not air strikes that destroyed the arsenals because people often mistakenly think that. >> we destroyed them. i personally witnessed by definition the blowing up of some missile warheads and by other means destroying chemical glassware used to make chemical weapons and so on. we carried it out. iraq was told that it may not because that would be a good way of hiding things. we destroyed that. and it was illegal under the security council resolution for them to do that. we had to do that and we did that. >> air strikes never targeted chemical weapons because that would release toxins into the atmosphere. >> we have that problem today

too. >> so bottom line is inspections process through all that difficulty actually worked. >> it did work. in my last report to the security council in 1999, i made clear we had a full account of all of iraq's weapons of mass destruction with the exception of a small quantity of chemical weapons. we couldn't account for them. we knew they had been produced. we couldn't find them. iraq had either destroyed them or -- and this is interesting in today's context, we had an intelligence report they moved them across the border into syria to keep them away from us. basically, fareed, the system did work. the bottom line to that and this may sound incredibly naive on my part, but is a genuine willingness on the part of those being inspected to cooperate. now, that might sound a bit funny and a bit naive. we had that willingness from the

iraqi side for quite a while and then they started to withdraw it. i'll make this point right here and now. this can work. what the russians have proposed. syrians said they will agree to. it can work provided the system of the kind i described is put in place. above all, provided the syrians are prepared to want and act to make it work. cooperation. then it can be done. if they play a show game, this won't be achieved. >> that's the million dollar question. richard butler, pleasure to have you on. >> thank you very much. up next, what in the world, what is syria any way? before we attack a country, we decided it's worth being able to answer that question. when we come back. i am today by luck.

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a new internet game, where is damascus, asks you to pinpoint syria's capital on a map. even if you are off by 100 miles, you would probably have done better than 80% of the people that played the game. according to its creators, a number of the people inside the department of defense tried it out as well and only 57% managed to locate damascus. some guesses were as far off as india and south africa. let's hope those folks weren't tasked with targeting the air strikes. so as a public service, here are three facts about syria. first, it became a nation recently and with much turmoil. until world war i, the empire controlled most of the middle east and parts of europe and north africa and ruled much of the land for six centuries. when the empire collapsed after world war i, it led to fragmentation of the region.

france and britain carved up parts of the empire, syria broke free of french influence after world war ii and then followed a series of failed governments, and then briefly it actually joined up with egypt to create a new country, the united arab republic and then seceded from that republic three years later. in 1963, the baath party organized a coo and that's a beginning of the syria we now know. borders were drawn arbitrarily. that's true through much of the world. but what's more important regarding syria is that its borders contain many different communities and sects often not thought of themselves as one nation. consider the division between two sects. they begin with a fascinating map. portions in white are where

sunnis live and portions in gray are where shia are predominant. it's a randomized distribution. if you zoom in on syria, you will see a small minority of shia who have been running the country and that is the third point. syria is the last of three great minority regimes in the middle east. the first were christians in lebanon. second sunnis of iraq and third alwhites in syria. the colonial powers favor a minority group as allies. the reason they chose a minority was obvious. that group would always need the help of an outside colonial power. so what can we draw from history about syria today? well, over the last 30 years we have seen revolts against the three minority regimes. it was a 15-year civil war that

ensued. in iraq, the united states deposed saddam hussein and sunni power structure but it fought back in a long civil war that in many ways still continues. iraq is the second most violent country in the world today after syria. in syria, this struggle between the alwhites and their sunni opposition will probably be a long and bitter struggle as were the other two. it's not clear to me at least that limited american military intervention will be able to do much to shape its outcome. whether or not you agree with me on that, just make sure you know where the country is before you want to bomb it. up next, a different kind of debate on the middle east. who makes the best hummus? when we're back, anthony bourdain has tales from gaza and jerusalem. ? ♪

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secretary of state john kerry reiterated that the threat of u.s. military force against syria "remains real." vice president joe biden will be shaking hands and slapping backs at a steak fry from iowa today. that's whipping up talk of a biden presidential bid in 2016. the pick particulnic has a hist drawing potential presidential candidates. colorado bracing for more rain today after devastating storms claimed four lives. another 500 people unaccounted for. thousands have been rescued as flooding washed away roads and bridges. a helicopter carrying the colorado governor and members of colorado's congressional delegation was diverted twice to pick up people waving to be rescued. "reliable sources" begins at the top of the hour.

now back to "fareed zakaria gps." secretary of state john kerry arrived in israel to talk about syria and other major initiative on his plate. the middle east peace process. now perhaps just perhaps the solution to that problem could be found in food. anthony bourdain traveled recently to israel, the west bank and gaza to find out. the second season premiere of "parts unknown" airs tonight on cnn. welcome back. >> thank you. >> you had never been to that part of the middle east? >> i had not. >> i remember the then ambassador and now chief negotiator gave a speech when he was ambassador and he began by saying we are all semites and it is striking when you look at the food, at least to me, the difference between israeli food and palestinian is all part of the same culture. >> already this is a hot topic. this is a source of much ferocious argument. who makes better hummus?

these are things already contention. >> are you willing to weigh in on that? >> no way. i will say it was an eye openings experience for me and for a lot of people. it's a difficult thing to get into gaza. as a result, very few westerners, very few israelis have seen gaza city or how people live there. how they eat. >> it's very tough. it's one of the -- what was your reaction to gaza? >> like a lot of the refugee -- the way i felt when i saw a refugee camp in west bank. there's a scientific aspect. it's unbelievable. you enter gaza and you go through a security system. i think you see one human being. it's a half mile walk through various holding areas and stages and it is very impersonal and frightening in a sense that in a

world where security is increasingly a concern, is this our future as well? a future of walls and high tech security. depersonalizing high tech security. it's very confusing experience. what i'm grateful for is that -- one of the things i'm grateful for is i got to see as someone i met on the show said, when we see palestinians on tv, they are usually crying women or men throwing stones. here you are going to meet some people living their lives, talking about themselves and ordinary every day things and i think there is value in that. >> did you find that in gaza people were able to focus on something like food? is there cuisine in gaza? >> there's a glorious and fascinating cuisine in gaza that's very different from that in the west bank. remember, a lot of people in gaza are from elsewhere.

they were relocated and they brought with them various dishes. it's a spicier, more coastal cuisine. the food is fascinating but again there is nothing more political than food. it's not just what people are eating but what they're not eating and what's coming in gaza and what's allowed into gaza and what's allowed out. you know, these are big issues. we were very close to being able to -- you can order fried chicken apparently from gaza from egypt and they smuggle it in. they send a guy to egypt through the tunnels that they use to smuggle arms and other contraband and it was a chicken delivery service and you could call egypt and they would smuggle in your kfc. >> israel is now like an advanced european country. does the cuisine reflect that? i think of sushi and things like that. >> tel aviv feels very much like southern california.

nicer. it is hip. really the only thing that tips you off that you're not some place like southern california are basically teenagers with machine guns on the beach. i spent most of my time in jerusalem. in general, it's not the new israeli cuisine, hipster fusion. i'm not going to this part of the world for asian fusion. it is that glorious mix of traditional food from people who are going back to israel. it's the various arab and palestinian regional cuisines all of the things that make it such a difficult and contentious part of the world make the food interesting and it's one of the things that both jews and palestinians really enjoy and they come at it from very different angles. what great culture doesn't like

to eat and isn't proud of their food. >> you have gone to tokyo many times. the city that gets the most three stars is not paris and not new york but tokyo. do you agree that tokyo is the great -- >> if i would ask ten great chefs that i know around the world what city in the world would you like -- if you had to be stuck in one city and eat every meal there for the rest of your life, where would that be, nine out of ten would say tokyo. there's a level of perfectionism and attention to detail and quality ingredients and tradition and technique unlike any place else. endlessly deep subject and the show that i did there most recently where we tried to draw a direct line between that excellence and attention to detail and fetishism for food and quality with the repressed japanese male.

probably parental advisory type show. >> on that note, anthony bourdain, pleasure to have you on. >> always. thank you. up next, a different way to look back at 9/11. what did the events of that day change for muslim americans? i have two great guests. the playwrite of this year's pulitzer prize winning. she's agreed to give it up. that's today? [ male announcer ] we'll be with her all day to see how it goes. [ claira ] after the deliveries, i was okay. now the ciabatta is done and the pain is starting again. more pills? seriously? seriously. [ groans ] all these stops to take more pills can be a pain. can i get my aleve back? ♪ for my pain, i want my aleve. [ male announcer ] look for the easy-open red arthritis cap.

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this week marks 12 years since the attacks of september the 11th. in so many ways the events of that day shaped the course of modern geopolitics. today i wanted to discuss something different. the experiences of muslim americans in the aftermath of 9/11. i have two great guests. welcome to you both. >> hello. >> thank you. >> so you portrayed a muslim

american. a young muslim american as having very conflicted feelings about 9/11 and the rise of this kind of muslim fundamentalism and taking a certain amount of pride in the attacks. that seems to be a very, very controversial idea. >> yeah, you know, it is. it ended up being. i think that as an artist you kind of are listening to your characters and you want to see where they lead you and that was one of the revelations that i discovered was -- >> this is the character? >> the lead character. the intensity with which he's defined himself in opposition and believes a secular humanist. >> i disagree. the next attack is coming from some white guy who has a gun. >> pointing it at someone who

kind of sort of looks like me. >> not necessarily. >> if every person is doing what you're doing, we might actually start getting a little too comfortable about our suspicions. >> so you do have suspicions. >> did you see yourself in this character? i think of you as a very westernized muslim american. >> when i read this play, it was one of the most difficult plays i ever read in terms of it brought up so much stuff for me personally as someone who was raised muslim and raised in the west and, you know, all of the sort of self-hatred and the sort of rejection of identity. a lot of what the play deals with is sort of on a more metaphoric level about west

looking at islam through its own lens and islam receipting to itself with what west says about it and that's what the character embodies in the play is this person who has completely taken on the attributes of a western gentleman and yet deep down inside of him is this muslim kid who was raised with the stuff that he's trying to reconcile in himself. >> what do you think of the american muslim experience? leave the play aside. do you think that this -- do you see this pull to modernize and other hand to stay true -- >> i grew up in a liberal muslim home. much more than the character in the play for example. but still i think there is an

identification with the muslim world, the muslim identity in some way that it is especially after 9/11, you know, it is a question still, you know, that i live with and i'm on tv. i get to sort of say things and sort of stand on that fence and comment on both sides of it, you know. i'm very fortunate in that way that i get to do that. it is something that lives inside of me. i don't know how -- since september 11th, i don't know how far we've come really. you still have those idiots on "fox and friends" saying it means death to america confusing these things or you still have michele bachmann going to egypt and talking in a completely condescending way to the egyptian people. i question where have we come in terms of american muslim

identity and relationship between. i don't know if we've taken some steps forward but in many ways we have a long way. >> do you think that 9/11 has brought these issues to the fore in a way that will ultimately be good because it forces us to think and talk about this as a society? > that's the hope. i think there's lots of reasons to have hope. there's lots of reasons not to. keeping those reasons not to have hope in mind is very important. tribalism runs deep in all of us. without the awareness of how deep it runs, it's difficult to believe that we could ever overcome it. >> i think this idea that one of the things that the play addresses is the idea that we all believe that we live in this world, you know. what the play uncovers is that we do have these very, very distinct tribal connections that we don't know we have. as much as muslim character in

the play connects to his tribal connections, so does everybody else. so do the caucasian white woman and jewish american and everybody sort of suddenly anchors down into their tribal connections without even realizing it and here you have these sophisticated new yorkers who believe that they are above all of this and can have these intellectual discussions and conversations and that's where it ends up. i think that's why people identify with it because it's not just about -- there's a part of me that's muslim that i can't reconcile with the west. it's true for all of us. >> thank you both very much. fascinating. >> next on "gps" intriguing visions of a new political future in miniature. really miniature. we'll be back. man: sometimes it's like we're still in college. but with a mortgage. and the furniture's a lot nicer.

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tokyo has been awarded the 2020 olympic games beating out madrid and istanbul which brings

me to my question of the week. since the modern olympic games began in 1896, which country has hosted the games the most? stay tuned and we'll tell you the correct answer. go to cnn.com/fareed for more of the "gps" challenge. you can follow us on twitter and facebook. and remember, you can go to itunes.com/fareed if you miss a show or special. this week's book of the week will help you understand syria and much more. a piece to end all peace. it is by far the best book on the complicated geo politics that made and remade the arab world. you'll encounter characters like winston churchill. it's a must read.

all eyes are on germany as the national election enters the final week. we found the most interesting political messaging we've seen. a 3-d version of a party platform. the city of hamburg is home to the miniature wonderland. the largest model railway in the world complete with not only trains but a cruise ship, a soccer stadium, an entire miniature airport. the museum recently gave each of germany's major political parties an 11 square foot plot of land asking them to create their version of the future. chancellor angela merkel emphasizes the link to greater europe. it includes a policeman of color showing a commitment to integration. the free democratic party symbolizing vision for germany with no debt. the left party shows an ominous high tech spying center

protestiprotest i protesting government surveillance. it made me wonder what kind of 3-d model the democratic and republican parties here in the u.s. would build in advance of the 2016 elections. send me your ideas in words or pictures. gps@cnn.com. we'll post the best one on our website. the correct answer to our "gps" challenge question was, a, the united states has hosted the games eight times. france is next in line with five and with 2020 olympic games japan will get the bronze when it hosts the game for the fourth time. japan was awarded the winter and summer olympic games in 1944 but withdrew in 1938. a note about last week's question which was who was the

first sitting american president to visit russia? we were trying to be clever but we were too clever by half. when fdr was there in 1945, it was part of the soviet socialist republic. outside of the borders of its russian counterpart. we thought the visit was not technically in russia. it was under the control of russia. all of it inside the soviet union of course. if you said fdr was first u.s. sitting president to visit, you were right. nixon was the first state visit. thanks for being part of my program this week. i will see you next week. stay tuned for "reliable sources." just one week ago the syria story changing on a daily basis seemed destined for a congressional showdown