tv Piers Morgan Live CNN September 16, 2013 9:00pm-10:01pm PDT
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tonight," welcome to our viewers around the world and the united states. breaking news, deadly shooting in the nation's capitol. at the washington navy yard, that toll includes one suspect, aaron alexis, a 34-year-old military contractor, a referist from texas, the navy said he was awarded the national defense service medal and the war on terror service medal, but he was discharged for misconduct. call fbi with information.
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he was armed with an ar-15, another rival, and a semiautomatic glock. they believe he used the semiautomatic for the shooting, that gun was legally purchased. no word yet on the motive, but it targeted high-level navy personnel. the entire cnn team, of course is working the story. i want to bring in first, my colleague, wolf blitzer. wolf, a devastating attack, you have been in the heart of washington today with the reporting. the obvious question following this is how did the man with his background, a couple of gun-related incidents, discharged from the army with a pattern of misconduct. how does he get clearance to enter one of the most secure military bases in america and do what he did? >> he had a pass that apparently allowed him to enter the navy yard that is right behind me,
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right now. it is clearly a mystery that will be questioned right now, how does he get those top secret security clearances with someone who did have at least two incidents involving gun use. raising all sorts of questions, but as you point out he also received two medals, if you will, during his duty with active service. so these are questions the u.s. navy and fbi will be charged with following up on. they will go through them, all of his life, all the details will come out publicly, as well. >> we believe, now, that the fbi convinced it was just the work of this lone shooter, contrary to earlier reports. there was nobody else involved. and they have also ruled out an act of terrorism? >> they're saying now, despite some of the comments from local washington, d.c. law enforcement, kathy lanier, the
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police chief in d.c., at one point they were looking for two suspects, now they're looking for one. now, the fbi and other federal investigators believe this is the work of one individual, one shooter. and they can't completely rule out trim. this is according to the mayor of washington, vincent gray, although there was a political agenda, if you will, that caused this massacre at the navy yard behind me. >> wolf blitzer, thank you very much indeed. patricia waters, a specialist, heard gunfire from the open cafeteria. she joins me now, welcome, patricia, obviously, a terrible thing to go through. tell me exactly what happened. >> well, i was in the cafeteria this morning. i was standing in line purchasing my breakfast. and i heard three gunshots. and i knew they were gunshots, and other people in the cafeteria were kind of
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panicking, looking, i said they're gunshots. they didn't know if they should stay in the cafeteria. i said no, we got to get out of here. so we ran to the side of the cafeteria by the loading dock so we were able to escape out of the side of the loading dock where the security guard was. and she had her gun drawn. and she told us to just run far, far away from the building. so i just kept running. >> now, there are 3,000 people who work at the base. how secure is it, would you say? >> well, i thought the base was very secure. i mean, we have never had any major incidents like that since i've been working there, and i've been working there since 2,000. >> how many people would be armed in the base itself? i'm told that there are armed security guards, armed police. but that the civilians that were
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there were not allowed to carry guns, is that correct? >> yes. >> and are there many armed security guards? are you aware of their presence? >> yes, there are security guards inside the building, outside the building, surrounding the building as you enter the gate. there are a couple of gates you can come in and out. and there is security all around. >> so when people call this a gun-free zone, it is not a gun-free zone at all. it is actually a place heavily guarded by people who have guns. this man appears to have gone inside with his own identity. he had clearance to do so. he was carrying an ar-15 assault rifle and another handgun. would somebody carrying weapons in the way that he was immediately ring alarm bells inside the base. >> well, i don't know how he was able to get them on the base. i don't know, you know, exactly what he had -- i didn't see it coming.
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the only thing i can account for is me hearing the shots. and running out of the building and telling the other people to run with me. that is all i could -- i don't understand how he was able to get in the building with those type of weapons. and we don't have any metal detectors, for one thing. >> presumably, patricia, you have to go through a type of security check to get inside the building? >> when you come inside the gate, yes, you have to show your card. if you have decals on your card, i guess they still look at those. but i don't know how he came in. whether he drove or walked. i'm not sure. >> do you need to go through metal detectors? >> no, we don't have any metal detectors. >> seems destroyed at a military base that would be such an obvious security target.
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>> well, i don't understand that. you know. i guess that is for security to decide. >> are you going back to work, patricia, tomorrow? >> no, i will not, no. i don't think i will be coming back the rest of this week. >> what is your feeling towards the man that put you through this, and so many of your colleagues? >> i'm terrified. i'm stressed. i'm tired. you know, i mean, just -- listening to the ring of gunshots and ambulance and fire trucks and helicopters. i've never experienced this before. >> well, i'm so sorry for what you have been through, patricia, no one should have to go through this at work in the way you did or anywhere else, an absolutely awful experience, indeed. thank you very much for joining me. >> you're welcome. >> we're learning more about the suspected shooter tonight.
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aaron alexis was a navy reservist, but was a contractor. cnn's joe johns is here with more. joe, what do we know about this man? because it seems to be a guy of conflicting character references, on the one hand, he seems quite shy and very well behaved. never caused any trouble. on the other, a little clue here and there. incidents involving firearms, misconduct, literally being discharged from the navy. who is the real aaron alexis? >> that picture really is just emerging, piers, and you're right. it is a study in contrast. one of the most interesting things i have heard for a while is a government official who lives outside washington, d.c. and came here told me she met alexis at a washington hotel, the residence inn, had a long conversation with him.
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he told her he worked in i.t. security. and she said she was a little surprised and a little disbelieving, because she thought he was a little too young and pleasant to be involved in i.t. security. whatever that means, but she talked to him later, on tuesday, and gave us a call to say she met him there. and authorities did believe he did stay at that residence inn and actually went to that hotel to check him out. some of the other biographical information we heard about, he was in the navy reserves from 2007 to 2011, got out, apparently became a contractor after that. also had some run-ins in the law, in 2010, unlawful use of a
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weapon in texas, dating back to 2004, another one, in the state of washington, in seattle. both of those incidents seemed to involve both anger and the use of firearms. so now, moving forward, when you look at what happened out here, police say he is the suspect. you can sort of conclude that anger and firearms is a theme that apparently has run through this man's life for a while, piers. >> well, it does seem extraordinary that he would get full security clearance from his employer, and the base, a big terror target like the base. we know he was armed with guns, a rifle, and a semiautomatic handgun. we believe he used the ar-15 for most if not all of the shooting. but joe, he just started at this military base.
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how does somebody like this, with this background just walk onto the base and be in a position to kill all of these people? >> i asked the under-secretary of the navy that question, as well as a top official, an admiral, and no one really has answers at least right now. what they will tell me is in order to be on that base, the only person who is supposed to have a firearm is someone who is in the military police. so there is a question, i think, as to whether you know -- he brought all of these weapons onto the base with him, or if perhaps he brought one or another and then acquired another one along the way. because we do know a security guard was actually shot. a lot of questions still to be answered about how he got control of those firearms, piers. >> joe johns, a lot to be answered. thank you very much, indeed. when we come back, the latest on the investigation and the doctor
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who treated the victims during the attack. and who says there is something wrong in this country when we have so many multiple attacks. >> there is something wrong in this country, when we have these multiple shootings, there is something wrong. and the only thing i can say is we have to work together to get rid of it. so i have to say it is a challenge to all of us. let's get rid of this. this is not america, this is not washington, d.c. woman: everyone in the nicu -- all the nurses wanted to watch him when he was there 118 days. everything that you thought was important to you changes in light of having a child that needs you every moment.
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with intelligent security that learns your spending patterns, and can alert you to an unusual charge instantly. so you can be a member of a more secure world. this is what membership is. this is what membership does. we're now going to go to janice orlowski, the coo at the hospital in washington. janice, i watched a very powerful moment where you i guess, expressed your fury and distress about having to deal with these mass shootings. tell me, what prompted you to react like that and expand on what you said. >> well, you know, piers, i am a doctor. i work every day and deal with
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facts and figures and people and persons. and at some point at the end of the news conference, someone you know, sort of threw out a question regarding what is it like to deal with people at a trauma center? and i have to say, i had a moment where i told you exactly what i think. i wish that we didn't have to deal with senseless trauma. i wish that we had a way to close a trauma unit for something like that. i think it is great that we have a trauma unit. that we serve the people of washington, that we do as well as we do. but you know what? america, put me out of business, make it so i don't have to have a trauma center. and it was an emotion. and a feeling that i have to tell you, i felt today as i watched these poor people come in and get care with us. >> and obviously, the reason is that you're dealing with this constantly. and america is dealing constantly now with these mass shootings, which are rising
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faster, more dramatic, aurora, sandy hook, and now there are three of the worst shootings in modern american history. you're the sharp end of this, how do we change things? i mean, you're a. >> -- a good person to talk to because you deal with picking up pieces? >> i don't know that we have the answers, but as a society i feel like we're strong enough and smart enough to deal with finding the answers. a lot of times when we deal with this, it has to do with the mentally ill, or people who have problems. i actually know the people down in arizona. and what they said to me about the shooting there with the representative, what they said to me is if we had stronger mental health here in arizona you wouldn't be interviewing the trauma surgeons. so i think we have to look at it and prioritize, how do we deal
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with this? it is not normal, to walk through a work place with a shotgun and shoot to death 12 people that you worked with and send another couple to the hospital. i don't know that i have all the answers, but i think that we have to work hard together on this and we have got to stop this. we can't have one mass shooting after another. this is something that we have to stand up, shout, and be done with. >> the ar-15 that was used today was used in utah. it was used in aurora, it has been used in almost all the mass shootings in the last two years or so in america. you have seen the damage that this weapon can do. to those who don't really understand it, describe the injuries that you see.
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>> well, what i will tell you is that the injuries that we see in our emergency room are very dramatic. we see people who have been shot in the head. we see people where bullets have torn into their bodies or into their limbs. these are dramatic. these are very terrible injuries, i'll tell you, many of our military colleagues that we work with and have a good relationship with, many of them keep their skills up to date by doing non-combat trauma by working with us in our trauma unit. that tells us the level of injuries that we see. >> and in terms of the injured today, at least 12, maybe 13 more people were injured than those who so tragically lost their lives, how many have you been treating where you are?
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what is the current state of their condition? >> i would be happy to tell you. so there were three individuals who required transport to our trauma unit. one was a d.c. police officer. he was shot in both of his legs, sort of right across his knees. he has been in surgery and already out. he is doing very well. had a chance to talk to him after his surgery. he will tell you he is in good spirits. he has a recovery period ahead of him but i expect him to fully recover. we had another woman who was shot in the shoulder. she is either just finishing up surgery or should be out of surgery just about this time. and then the last story is a woman who was transported to us. she was actually shot in the back of the head. and from what you can tell from her injuries she must have tried to shield herself. because she actually shot in the tip of her finger. and then the back of her head.
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and luckily for her, the bullet came through her skin but didn't actually go into the bone or into the skull itself. so she didn't require surgery. she is very, very concerned about her colleagues, trying to get in touch with them. but otherwise, i can tell you she is going to do well. and considering the fright that she had today and the injury that she had today she is doing quite well. >> janice orlowski, you're doing an extraordinary job, not just today but on a daily basis with your team. and i applaud you, i really do. it needs more people to stand up and be counted in a way that makes a difference, so thank you for standing up and for what you said. >> well, thank you very much. have a good evening. >> a remarkable woman. this investigation is just beginning, there are a lot of unanswered questions. joining me now, shawn henry is the president of crowd strike
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services and the former assistant director of the fbi. he joins me now from the navy yard. shawn henry, in terms of the investigation and from all that you have gleaned today, are we definitely dealing with a lone shooter here? >> i don't know that you can make that determination right now. this is going to be an evolving investigation. and it could be days or weeks before we know that for certain. right now, the fbi will look to make that determination. the primary goal is to make sure there are no other shooters there, they will be determining if alexis had other co-conspirators with him. >> they are seeking information after the shooter is dead. what do you make of that? >> i think that is actually the right protocol. this is an intelligence investigation right now. what is important is to gather as many facts as you can.
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and quite frankly, the general public has a lot of information. people who may have passed him in a restaurant, seen him at the mall. they may have sold him ammunition, perhaps. so the fbi wants to reach out to the public to get as much information as they can so they can fully vet all the information and make sure they run all the leads to the ground. >> are you surprised this man got security clearance given his background. and are you surprised he is able to walk fully armed into a base of this nature and do what he did? >> well, i don't know if it is clear he got the weapons onto the base, i'm not sure of his security clearance. certainly, the military base is a prime target for terrorists, potentially. it is well guarded and well maintained. so it is really not clear. certainly, is a cause for some surprise given the potential or possible security that they would maintain. >> i mean, after the fort hood
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massacre, you just assume that it is very, very, very difficult to walk into a base like this with his kind of background, particularly somebody who has just started working there. and walk in with an ar-15 and nobody appears to be able to stop him. >> right, well, i mean, there are hundreds of thousands of people that work on these types of bases every day. security is always a balance. obviously, you want to make things as secure as possible. but the reality is, people have to come and go. there are trucks that deliver goods, food, this is what is going to be determined in the next few days or weeks as the fbi and state and local law enforcement partners continue to round out these leads and try to determine the entire time line on what occurred and ensure they have ground truth on who this man is and who his co-conspirators may have been. >> shawn henry, thank you very much indeed.
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thinks the guns used today is the problem and should be banned. i think today is proof that the guns being banned is a total failure. how do you justify that? >> well, first look at d.c., you are not allowed to own any semiautomatic rifle. so where did he buy it -- based on the law -- >> where did he buy it? no, we do know where he bought it. >> first of all, you're assuming he bought it, he may have stolen it. >> no, he didn't steal it. >> do you know that he bought it? >> because i'm telling you a fact, ben, he bought it legally in virginia. this is a problem with america's gun laws. it is not legal where he did the act, it is legal around the corner. there is no federal ban on ar-15s, so that is why they keep being used. >> all right, but in d.c. he broke the law. second thing is, you can't even have a permit to carry a
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handgun, much less this gun in d.c. that is the other issue. and finally, in 1993, bill clinton signed an executive order banning guns by civilians or others on military bases, that is partly the reason that fort hood happened the way it did. so you had all of these anti-gun laws in place, they were all ordered, in place, and they were a failure in place with all the best security in the world. so the idea that somehow we can pass a law to stop crazy people or you think that if we pass a law to get rid of this one gun law, he wouldn't have acted today. he did bring another gun with him today, it is also in d.c., it is not working, piers, is the problem. >> okay, i tell you what is not working is the failure to do anything. to even clamp down on ar-15s. here is richard feldman, and this is from "mother jones," who authorized this. there were seven shootings,
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based on the clarification of four or more people killed and they have chosen the criteria by a single shooter in an outdoor scenario. 60 mass shootings since 1982, 30 of them occurring since 2006, seven in 2012 alone, and five so far this year. so a dramatic escalation in mass shootings in america in the last seven or eight years or so. why do you think there is not a problem here? >> well, there is a problem here, piers. what our failure as a nation is to even talk about the complexity of the problem. you know, piers, after the tragedy last year at sandy hook, everyone seemed to have as one of their talking points mental health. and as soon as we said mental health, that was, check. but we never had an adult conversation in this country
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about the problems with our mental health system. and just earlier today, i was speaking with dr. cedric alexander, the chief of police in dekalb county, georgia, where two incidents that led to shootings, he was frustrated like millions of americans that we sort of lose track of the problem and instead of staying focused on the problem, we start talking about the particular type of gun used as though being shot with a different type of gun would somehow be better or worse instead of focusing on the problem. >> well, the real problem, though, isn't it, john lawton, you and i debated it after almost every mass shooting, is you guys never accept that a gun can be a part of the problem. in fact, your answer to the shootings is arm more people. now, let's take what happened today. because the nra has been curiously silent today.
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they don't want to say anything. this is why, because the washington navy yard is heavily secured. it is crawling in armed security, people, armed police. and yet it was still infiltrated by a man with a legally purchased ar-15, who just committed the same type of offense that we saw at sandy hook and aurora. and i'm sure, john lawton, you will explain to me that if they arm even more people in that building -- is that right? >> i would agree with ben earlier. and i would say -- i would go even further, when you go and ban guns from certain areas. when you don't allow our soldiers or naval officers to go and be able to carry guns you actually create a magnet for these types of incidents to occur. the message they're using for mother jones is simply wrong, if
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you look at the evidence they use to gather data, there is no big increase. mother jones used different definitions to measure these attacks over time. not a very reliable source. >> just to clarify, mr. lawton, you are stating for the record that when mother jones with their specific criteria that i gave you, when they say there have been 70 shooting incidents in america where four or more people have been killed by a lone shooter in an outdoor scenario, you are saying they are inventing those statistics? >> i'm saying that multiple people have said that they're wrong in terms of their numbers. multiple academics. >> are you prepared to say now for the record that mother jones is simply inventing these statistics? these mass shootings that they have recorded in great detail, that they published on their website, simply didn't happen, is that your position? >> no, i didn't say they didn't
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happen. they don't use a consistent standard. >> well, they do, they made it very clear with their criteria. >> they're more occurring -- >> but there are more occurring. there have been -- let me repeat for you, let me repeat for you. >> you can keep on repeating mother jones, piers if you want to rely on mother jones, that is what you can do. >> simply spin these statistics, let me repeat to you the facts. since 1982, there have been 70 mass shootings in america. of those, 30 have happened since 2006. of those, 13 -- in the last 20 months. of those 13, three have been three of the worst -- >> piers, yelling isn't going to make those numbers right? others have looked at this, and they would warn you to be careful.
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not to use those numbers. >> but piers, let's get back to today's shooting. >> a lot of people would argue there has not been that increase over time. not just myself -- >> let's get back -- >> ben, let me ask you this, ben. >> in the problem here -- >> wait a second. >> john lawton -- ben ferguson -- john lawton, please, one moment. ben ferguson, aurora was the single biggest shooting in america by one shooter in terms of the number of people he hit, by 70 people. sandy hook became a few months later -- >> gun free zone. >> we've now seen the second worst military base shooting in modern american history. all three were committed by people --. well, they're not gun-free zones, are they, john lawton. >> in aurora, colorado -- >> let me say this. let me say this. piers, piers, let me say this,
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because this is important for us to look at today. hold on everybody, just give me a second, okay? you look at what happened today. and there are two ways to look at this. you want to blame the ar-15, and you think that if we ban this ar-15, federally ban it, somehow it is going to fix the issue. i look at it differently, piers, and i look at it from this perspective, when you allow these places to go, where the only people there that can protect those individuals are those at the gate, at the front door, with the gun, the mps that are there. same thing that happened in fort hood. once this guy -- we don't know yet how he infiltrated it. we know the guys there minding their business played by the rules. they didn't bring the gun to work, based on the order by bill clinton in 1973, when you allow a military base to be infiltrated like this, when the guy can find them. look how many hours we had a
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lockdown today, and we had a lot of information about not knowing how many shooters there were, or if they had them are. let me finish this, this is important. you continue to look at this based on the gun is evil, i say don't set up people whether it be a movie theater or school or military base for failure by having a gun-free zone unless you are a law enforcement official at that base. at that movie theater, at that school. >> but ben, it is not a gun-free zone, the washington navy base that was hit today. >> then why did bill clinton sign -- >> wait a minute, the very same armed security you guys have called for after sandy hook, aurora, you wanted armed guards at military bases, theaters, there were armed guards there at military bases and it made no difference.
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>> this is the reason why we're not calling for armed guards because they cannot work in today. it is proof of that. we are saying that if you are in the united states navy and we trust you with navy ships and war, why the hell wouldn't we trust you to carry your weapon to work with you when we trust you with top secret information and -- >> you're missing the point. >> i'm not missing the point. >> you wouldn't address the problem with armed guards. >> you are addressing members of the armed forces, all the victims today were civilians. >> and some of those civilians should be able to protect themselves. >> they were not military people, they were civilians. >> but piers -- >> the other military -- >> would an ar-15 have guns or rifles. >> i have to leave you there. we have the debate every time. i want the day to come when we don't have to have this ridiculous debate time and again in america.
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ar-15, killing multiple americans, i just cannot have the debate anymore. it is ridiculous, do something about it. and the three gentlemen that just came on, think about your position. think about it helped save american lives, because it doesn't. more guns is not the answer. anyway, we'll leave it until the next time because there will be the next time. next, inside the mind of a shooter. there is no known motive for the shooter, not yet anyway. when we come back, we'll talk to the mental health provider. we may have some idea what was driving him. ♪
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simple as a disaffected employee? somebody who had been bounced out of the navy, apparently bore a grudge about that? possibly a disagreement with an employee? is it is simple as that? possibly an underlying mental health issue? >> it may be as simple as that. that may be the most common type of person we see in this incident. absent the complex type of illness, such as schizophrenia, as jared loughner, and in the absence of that, generally the type of person we see committing these mass shootings is somebody who is disenfranchised. somebody who is angry, he feels his life is a mess because of others, they tend not the blame themselves. a lot of times their motive is revenge.
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the person is angry at the world. they don't look at themselves as the problem, and they want to make others pay for their pain. their psychological pain. that is the most common thing, and they tend to do it alone. >> okay, the revelation, you said he had anger management after suffering from ptsd, working after september 11th, could that be a trigger for what happened? >> absolutely, was it treated or not or diagnosed, what somebody really thought he had. or the toxicology screens, but yes, there were red flags and yes, that could have definitely been something that triggered. >> it is a fact today, 8,175 americans have been killed by guns since the newtown shooting? i mean, i hear that, and the
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comparative figure in britain would be about 25. australia, 25. germany, 40, maybe. japan, two. does your heart ache when you see this kind of statistic and see another mass shooting? this is america. >> absolutely, but the common thread i see in all of that is anger. people who are lost. they are struggling. and what is triggering all that, i think the common thing is anger, yes, it is an absolute shame. >> but anger manifested into violence by a gun. >> absolutely, they have that vehicle to manifest it. >> what is the answer? >> well, the answer is to look at cases, see if there are common threads, are there mental health issues? substance abuse issues? socioeconomic issues? >> thank you both, very much. and coming back to talk about survive being shot by major
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he was shot by nidal hasan. he joins me now. staff sergeant thank you for joining me again. we have had a couple of emotional interviews in the last couple months. this might have brought back everything to you. another military base, almost as many people killed, innocent civilians going about their day's work blown to pieces by this man. what is your reaction? >> well, piers, one thing, it was shocking to me and it brought back a lot of memories about november 5, 2009. and one of the things i have to ask is, there again, what are we going to do to prohibit this afternoon again over and over in our country. >> what is the answer? you see, i try to debate this rationally earlier.
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but when i have people opposed to new gun control whatsoever, no background checks, carry on having huge magazines of 30 to 100 bullets, civilians with assault rifles, buying them off the shelves in wal-mart. if you can't get those kind of things in any kind of sensible gun control legislation what hope is there? >> well right now, piers, it appears there is no hope but there is light at the end of the tunnel. one of the things we have to do is make sure our local municipality law enforcement and military start training together and be on the same sheet of music to handle mass casualty situations so it's not three agencies working and speaking their own language so we can get a better handle on situations like this.
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two, we need to improve security. as far as gun control we have to tighten the reins. my thought is different than most. i don't think that guns kill people. people kill people. but we have to access the people who have access to the weapons. >> it's true that people kill people but it's true that there is a massive escalation of mass shootings in america. and almost every mass shooting involves an ar-15 assault rifle. it's the preferred mass shooter's weapon of choice but it's i don't see a logical reason why any civilian needs to have one of these killing machines. >> well, a lot of civilians purchase them -- what you have to look at, piers is a lot of times, different fractions glorify an ar-15 or an automatic rifle.
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if you look at "black ops" or "call of duty" and it's glorified people being blown to bits. if you seen this as a child you think there is glory in this. when kids see me they said, you have been shot seven times you are like 50 cent. no i'm not. bullets hurt and cause damage that is lifelong. >> it's worth noting that friends of the shooter today believe he was addicted to violent video games too. i think it can have an affect. thank you for joining me again. we'll be right back.
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tomorrow night an interview with pastor rick warren, the first since the suicide of his son. >> it's not supposed to end like this. because we had had close with calls. matthew had made attempts on his life before in other ways. and we just kept -- you know, when matthew was born even as a young child he struggled with mental illness. so we knew this date might happen one day. but it's a day no parent wants. it's your worst nightmare. i'll never forget the agony of
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that moment. >> rick warren and his wife kay are emotional, extraordinary and inspiring interview is tomorrow night. that's all for us tonight. stay with cnn on the washington navy yard shootings. i'm at southeast washington down the street from the navy yard where a gunman we are learning more about the shooter, airplane alexis, who he was and how he committed this massacre. we understand this latest information and we will bring that news conference to you when it happens. we are waiting for those who are going to speak. we are do have new information. we are learning from an fbi source that alexis bought the ar-15 assault rifle he used at a store in northern virginia.
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