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>> tonight pastor rick warren. >> the first thing i did was get down on my knees and pray for those families of the victims. those who died and those wounded. my heart went out to them. >> his youngest son, 27-year-old

matthew, shot himself to death losing a life long battle with mental illness. >> there is no way a gun should ever get in the hand of a mentally ill person. >> tonight he tells me of the loss of his son put his family together and returned to his church. >> i was overwhelmed by the love of our people. >> how he and his wife handled the attackers. >> i was horrified i wanted to punch the computer. >> they are speaking out since the first time of tear family tragedy. >> we stood in the driveway just embracing each other, sobbing. >> it's "piers morgan live." >> pastor rick warren and his wife kay the first founder of the church. the first interview since the tragic suicide of their son matthew in april. >> thank you. >> my deepest sincerest condolences on this awful loss

to you and your family. i remember that day. i remember seeing the news. you flew around the internet and the world, i felt a huge sense of sadness for you having interviewed you. i can only begin to imagine what it was like for you two. how have you been coping? >> well, you know, elizabeth kublor ross did these things called the four stages of death or dyeing. in actuality there are six. we have been watching ourselves go through these back and forth now for several months. i think the first state is shock and for us the shock still happens, but for at least the first month, i kept waiting for matthew to come in the door. go. when is my son going to walk in? i couldn't believe it happened. it was so sudden. then you move from shock to sorrow, sadness and this profound sadness that comes into your life. then you move to what i call

struggle. that's why questions, why now? why me? why matthew? and all that struggle. then you move to a stage i call surrender. i wrote in my journal one day, i later tweeted and said i'd rather have all my questions unanswered and walk with god than not walk with god and have all my questions answered. there is a struggle and you have to surrender and say i'm not going to know all these answers. then you move to sanctification, which is the change in you and service. god wants us to use our hurt. one of the reasons we decided to do the interview is maybe we could help some other people. >> i feel very honored you asked me to do this interview. you are a mother of three. it's the worst thing in the world. i have four kids. it's the thing you dread most is losing one of your kids. how have you been coping with this? >> you know, i've said almost from the first moment that we learned that we were devastated

but we're not destroyed and when people ask that question, how are you? there is no good answer and so i finally settled on, i'm terrible, but i'm okay. in other words, we're going to survive. we're going to survive and some day we'll thrive again. it is. it's the worst thing that could ever happen. >> i have cried every single day since matthew died. but that's actually a good thing. grief is a good thing. it's the way we get through the transitions of life and i find if i don't cry, then you stuff it. i have a saying when i swallow my emotions, my stomach keeps store. if i don't talk it out to my wife, to god, to friends, then i'm going to take it out on my body. so as guys, men, we don't do grief very well. it's not an easy thing for us. because we don't like the negative emotion. but actually, grief is a good thing. grief is the way we get through the transitions of life that help.

>> on the morning that matthew died, you both had this strange sense of foreboding. you had been with him the night before when he was a troubled boy. i will come to the mental health issues he battled his entire life. tell us why you felt this sense of forboding. start with you, rick. >> i had been going through a whole week what i call the battle for hope t. previous sunday was easter. that's the biggest day of the year for saddleback. i did a message on why you need hope. and each day of that week, i had a battle of hope. on monday, we announced i was starting a national radio program called daily hope. on tuesday i was going to write the first book "purpose driven life," it was going to be a four month sabbatical and the hope you need. on wednesday i atownsed a new series starting that weekend called struggling through your worst days. that weekend, i planned a message, i ended up having tom to preach it called what to do

on the worst day of your life, not knowing that would be the worst day of my life. on the radio program that was airing nationally that was a week old, that day the message was called winning the battle for your mind. now, the irony with that with a son who lost hope, took his life and had struggled for 27 years with this battle in his mind, a tender heart, but a tortured mind. we just had this sense of forboding that day. >> okay. how had he been the night before? >> you know, he was, it was actually one of the best weeks in a long time. >> it had been. >> so we weren't surprised matthew had took his life. he had been struggling with suicide ideation for quite a while. we have been surprised it was that day. he had started a new job, he had a "dateline"ed up for sunday. he had a bag of new towels, he was going to upgrade his phone

to an iphone 5. he had had this other gal he was going by a fast food store, he thought she was making eyes at him. he was going to ask her. he laid his head down on the kitchen table. he said, i'm so tired. he just said, i'm so tired and he had been asked to be a part of this kind of offline chat room thing that he was very excited about. but he said, you know the pressure of i want people to like me, but if they do, then there's the, can i maintain it and there is so much pressure. but he left he walked out to his car. i gave him a hug. rick hugged him when he got back. >> no sense of conflict. >> within i got his phone back, he was tired, but when we got his phone back from the police, i checked and at 9:45 p.m., he was texting for the girl he was going to have a date with. so he was excited. nine minutes later, he texted me and said, i feel like it's all

spiraling out of control and i'm going to take my life. in nine minutes, he went from -- >> it was like a switch. >> he went. so i was in a texting conversation with him then for the next hour trying to talk him, you know, off that ledge, talk him into independent. so i knew it was very desperate and i also knew he had a gun. so i knew that there was, that he had the lethal. >> the means. >> so not only was he impulsively in despair, i knew he could do something about it. >> how did you know he had the gun? >> he told us. he told us everything. >> i will come to that. he bought the gun online. >> he did. >> illegally. >> he did. >> we'll come to that. but you knew that. you had a suicidal son with a gun. >> he was getting more and more agitated. nothing i was saying was making any difference i wasn't able to calm him down. he had just stopped. >> we had talked him off the edge hundreds of times. >> i just knew, so i made rick, rick was very ill. i made him get out of bed.

we drove over the matthews house, i could see lights were on. i started ringing the door bell, banging on the door. typically, he would have said go away or come to the door, invite me in. he did nothing. that was not his pattern. i had a pretty good sense that perhaps something catastrophic could happen. >> what time was it? >> that was late april 24th. so i was pretty sure that something had happened. but he had also told us that if we called the police, that he would take his life instantly. so a call to the police was an instant suicide. so i was living with that horrible, horrible choice of do i call the police and perhaps intervene or do i take that risk if i call that he instantly kills himself? so we just had to wait for a few hours. so it was into the next day that i felt that he was not responding and finally when i sent the texting, look, i'm

calling the police, give me one word that tells me you are okay. one word and i won't call the police. there was nothing. so we went back to the house. his house looked exactly the same t. same lights were on. we knew. by that time we knew. >> when you go back to the house in the morning, you had this awful sense he had probably taken his life. you couldn't get inside the house. you called the police and you were waiting. >> right. >> that moment for the both of you must have been beyond harrow. >> we were sobbing, just sobbing. the day that i had feared might lap one day sense he had been born and the day that i prayed would never happen happened and i remember as we stood in the driveway, just embracing each other, sobbing and kay was wearing a necklace, you are wearing it today, that had the words of a book she wrote a year ago "choose joy."

i thought, are you kidding? how can i choose joy in this worst session of my life. even in that moment, we are trying to say, we're not in control, but we do have a greater hope and we do have a source of joy that isn't based on our circumstances and it was a holy moment. >> but it was excruciating to sit there even though i knew, by that point i knew that he was gone to have an officer come out the door and just, you know, nod. >> say the words you never want to hear. >> i hit the ground respect i hit the ground. >> and the thing they say, it's not supposed to end like this because we had had close calls, matthew had made attempts on his life before in other ways. and we just kept, you know, when matthew was born, even as a

young child, he struggled with mental illness. we can get into that when you want to talk about it. so we knew that this day might happen some day. but it's a day no parent wants. it's your worst nightmare. and i'll never forget, i'll never forget the agony of that moment. >>let take a short break. when i come back to talk to you about the appalling battles that matthew had gone through. the battles that you went through as a parent to try and prevent this from happening. >> good. >> when they brought his body out, i hugged him for all it was worth.

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>> when matthew took his life, it forced me to go deeper in life with god. >> how to get through what are you going through. pastor warren and his wife kay. this is heart breaking to listen to for anybody, never mind a parent or anyone to go through this. you are there at his house, matthew's house. you now know that he has done what you have always hoped you would never do. did you go in? did you go and try to see him? >> i didn't want to see what the pocket was. i opened the door, i led the police in, i immediately came right back out. i didn't want to -- >> no, we didn't. neither of us wanted to. the pictures in our mind are terrible enough. >> were bad enough. >> and we were fortunate, some people find their loved ones. we were fortunate that we did

not have to witness that, but they let us know it was catastrophic that the police officer was this, you don't want to have an open casket. so i assumed i would never see him again. so i said, i am definitely, i want to see, i am going to hug him when you bring him out. and so they did. when they, then when they brought his body out, i, i hugged him for all it was worth and they, the coroner tried to move me away and i was just like, i will be done when i am done. i am hugging my son until i am finished. and we were really, it was amazing blessing to us, tow, that they were, we were able to, we were able to use a beanie and we were able to have an open casket and a viewing for those, for our family.

an that was a treasure. it sounds weird, but. >> no, it doesn't. >> but it was a treasure to be able see him and touch him and hold him again. >> there are more suicides annually in america now than there are from auto accidents. one every 13.7 minutes even while we have been doing this interview, somebody else has committed suicide in america. what does that tell you? >> well, on a personal level on a family level on a government level, there would be three different answers. on a personal level it tells me there are a lot of people in despair. not all those people are mentally ill by far. but mental illness is really in one way the last taboo. >> the last cause. >> if there is any other organ in my body can get broken and there is no shame, no stigma to it. my liver stops working, my

lungs. hey, i got diabetes, my pancreas or adrenaline glands. if my brain is broken i'm supposed to feel bad about it. shamed. so a lot of people who should get help don't. >> kay, matthew from a very early age had suffered from depression. he was misdiagnosed, with bipolar and other conditions. in the end, you believe he was correctly diagnosed eventually. >> yes. >> with something called. >> borderline personality disorder. >> what is that? >> borderline personality disorder is a pervasive attachment, if you will, to mood swings, suicide ideation. it's a disregulation of emotions. there is usually a lot of difficulty in interpersonal relationships. many times people cut or burn themselves also have borderline personality. it's pervasive meaning it's just really hard to deal with, but

there are hope for it. >> it's hard to imagine all that i've researched on this with you and your family and matthew, it's hard to imagine anyone who suffers illness who has had more love and support from their family and a wide circle of friend, who has had more treatment from the so-called experts, more institutionalized. >> right. >> moments. everything you could imagine. and, yet, still it wasn't enough. >> if you look at the risk factors at what puts people at risk for suicide, matthew had almost none of the risk factors. he had as you say a loving family, the access to care. he had friends, he had everything and yet. >> some social system around him. >> so the main revving factor for him was major illness. he had that. >> if love could have kept my child alive. he'd by a live today. he was incredibly loved and he had an older sister and older brother who were fiercely

protective of him. even as a young child, when he, the signs of mental illness came on and we could see it, the whole family rallied around. >> he was not ostracized in anyway. he was welcomed in the extended family. he had all of those things that should lower his risks. but we've known for years and years, a decade at least, that he was trying to take his life. >> how many times had he actually tried? >> he had actually made two other attempts that were definite attempts, plus all the other attempts. he would text me and say, i'm trying and i can't. i can't make myself do it. i'm such a wimp. i can't even succeed at this two actual other attempts, one ten days. >> before he had taken an overdose. >> he overdosed. he had, well, i'll tell you this. he kept trying and there are charlatans on the internet who prey on vulnerable people like matthew.

he tried to boy, he didn't want to buy violently. he wanted to die in a peaceful way. so he tried to buy nimbutol on the internet. people took thousands of dollars from him and people sold him poison that was supposedly peaceful poison. i mean, he really was so desperate to end the pain. that's the most important thing is matthew was in such excruciating emotional and physical pane. he wanted the pane to stop. >> matthew was not afraid to die. he was afraid of pain. i remember fen years ago when he was 17, he came to me sobbing and he said, daddy, he said, it's really clear, i'm not going to get any better. we had gone to the best doctors the best hospitals, the best treatments, therapists, everything, prayer, everything you could imagine, good support and he says, it's real clear, i'm not going to get any better. so why can't i just die? he says, i know i'm going to heaven. he was not afraid to die.

>> what did you say to him? >> well, in that situation, i said, matthew the reason why is there is a purpose. even in our pain and i am not willing to just give up and say the solution isn't there. you might give up, but as your father, as your mother, we're not ever giving up that we won't find the solution because i really believe matthew could have been a great advocate for children and the world. he was an amazingly compassionate kid. he had an ability to walk into a room and he would instantly knew who was in the most pain in that room. he had his antenna up. the feelings. he would make a bee interest line for that person. the rest of the evening, he'd spend that tire i entire time trying to cheer them up, encourage them. many times you say, dad, i can help a lot of other people, i just can't get it to work for me. in fact, when we later looked at these suicide site, found a number people he had actually

helped even in his own agony and our, it's the world's loss that he's not here. it's the world's loss. >> let's take another break. let come back and talk about how he killed himself, the gun he used and how he got that gun. because that, in itself, should never have happened. >> we are grateful the laws kept matthew from getting the gun for as long as it did.

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>> he didn't get it legally. that's for sure. the gun laws in california are strict. they worked. he couldn't get a gun legally. >> had he tried to do it legally? >> oh, yeah, for a long time. we are grateful the laws kept matthew from getting a gun for as long as it did. >> he kept trying. >> he wanted to for one purpose? >> only one purpose. because he knew it would end it for him and he was just so determined. >> when did he finally get this gun? >> a month before he took his life. >> do you know how he got it? >> he told me everything. he told me that he found somebody finally on the internet who would sell it to him. it had to be super encrypted and this whole process. he begged me to help him because he couldn't figure out the process. again, there are so many moments of terrible choses with mental illness. here is my son is terrible pain

begging me to help him to get a means to end his pain. it's like, my son, i can't do that. i can help you live. i will do anything to help you live. i cannot help you take your life. he finally through great struggle was able to figure it out. so he got a gun illegally on the internet. he filed down the serial numbers, so we, maybe afterwards to try to find the person. >> he didn't want anybody else to be blamed for his choice. i have to say, pierce, one of the hard things was forgiving the person that sold him the gun. because i didn't want to forgive him. >> you prey on a desperate person. >> do you though who that person is? sample i have no idea. >> the police have never been able to find him? >> because they couldn't trace the gun. it was so encrypted. yeah, they couldn't find it. >> have you been able to forgive this person? >> oh, yeah, i have to forgive. not for his benefit, for mine.

i more give first because i have been forgiven by god. second, i am forgive it makes me miserable. third, i will need more forgiveness in the future. >> i don't want to be tied to that person emotionally the rest of my life. >> he hurt me already. >> he's gone. >> the gun, itself, kay, it's such a final thing. i campaign i campaigned a lot about gun control. one of the aspects is the suicide rate from guns. in states where there are more guns, there tend to be more gun suicides. you told very movingly, rick, after sandy hook and other shootings about the gun culture in america. this is another example. but it's touched your family. >> yeah. >> what can be done about this? is there anything that can be done about it in. >> yeah. well, it appears that there are multiple angles that we have to hit on this. because we are in a culture of violence. but it's, there's the mental

health issue. there is the social issue of kids are growing up playing video games an might have shot 30, 40,000 people before they are ken. >> dehumanizes it. >> it's fun. it's fun. so there is that culture. then there is the issue of gun control. and they don't call them an assault rifle for nothing. it's for assaulting. >> just recently, we had this latest incident, the naval yard in washington. another mass shooting. countless more lives devastated. so it goes on, just this constant title wave. now that you have been so personally touched, you are in such a position of authority. >> yeah. >> is it affecting what you are going to be saying about this going forward? >> well, yeah. it will affect me in all three of those areas. not just simply in gun control. by the way, when i heard about that, those deaths at the naval

yard the first thing i did is get down on my knees and pray for those families of victims. those who died and those who are wounded and my heart went out to them. i do think there is no way a gun should ever get in the hands of a mentally ill person. there is just no way. so i as i said, california has one of the strictest gun laws around. even with strict gun laws, he figured out a way. if you are persistent, you are going to figure out a way. is so in addition to laws that restrict, we also have to go to issues of why did my son want a gun and were there better ways to help him? we, of all people, have the means, the ability, to connection to find help for our son. if we couldn't find it, what is the person who is a single parent who has a mentally ill family member or a poor person that has a family member, this is an issue that has to be brought to the forefront.

>> kay, people say it's the 2nd amendment right of every american to have guns. what do you a i to them? >> it is. it's in our constitution. i don't have a problem with that. i am not saying that guns should be outlawed completely. i do believe that our constitution has that there for a reason. i absolutely do believe in very strong, good laws that protect, protect the innocent. protect the vulnerable. >> background checks. >> waiting periods. in fact, something that could be added probably fairly easily is there is, when firearms are given, purchased, that there is instruction of how to prevent accidental shootings. what if there was just even some information about that in talking to people about suicide? what if the gun manufacturers and dealers also included information about keeping guns

away from people who are mentally ill. just some small, simple things that can prevent the number of death by guns. >> let's take a break. i will come back and talk to you about the month you basically spend spent in conclusion. also the appalling attacks you got on the internet on twitter, on another curse of the modern age. i want to talk to you about that as well. >> i never questioned my faith in god. i questioned god's plan.

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>> so when matthew died, satan thought he had won. why? he couldn't torture him anymore. >> the first sermon after pastor warren's son's suicide. you, obviously, talked to me about how difficult it was. at the same time, you are one of the famous pastors in america. you knew is there had been a moment when he got out there and talked about this. what was that moment like, i know you both went out on the stage. kay, you find it so difficult, for you, rick, that moment when you walked out. >> i was overwhelmed by the love of our people.

kay and i have given 33 years to this church and i feel like they all gave it pack in a moment. it was just a very tender moment for me as a pastor, i have walked through the valley of the shadow of death with thousands of people. i have walked, i have stood at the bedsides and seen lots of people take their last breath. i have been there for those people for 33 years and they were will there for us when we needed it most. there are different levels of grief t. easiest funeral to do is when an elderly person dies. they lived a good life. they love the lord. when my parent's died, kay's dad died, it's a celebration of life. more difficult is the death of a spouse. more difficult than that is the death of a spouse with little children at home.

that's tough. a murder is a tough funeral to do. without a doubt the most difficult kind of funeral is the death of a child because parents aren't supposed to outlast their children and then on top of that is a suicide. people go why? now, i'm doing the death of a child's funeral the death of my child's funeral the death of my child's funeral as a suicide and then as you said as a well-known person, everybody knows. it's on the cnn ticker and it's on everywhere else. and that's difficult and that's why we just decided, i decide i was going to use social media to grieve. >> this is a tough question for you, rick. there must have been a moment after matthew took his life when even you questioned your faith in god. >> i never questioned my faith in god. i questioned god's plan. there is a big difference, i

know god is a good god. nothing can shake that from my life. i know god is a loving god. the question is, it's like my. my children have never doubted i loved them. they sometimes doubt my wisdom and don't think i've made the right decision. not everything that happens in the world is god's will. everything that happens in the world, god allows. he permits, because it couldn't happen without his permission, but we live in a world where there are free choices. if i choose to do wrong, i can't blame god for that. god isn't to blame for my son's death. my son took his life. it was his choice. if i chose to go out and get in a car and i was in an accident and killed somebody. i can't blame god for that. >> any doubt about your faith in. >> you know, as rick said, it's not, our faith is partly what's got us, the foundation of what's

gotten us flew. it's solid and strong. i have to tell you before i have something that i want to show you, there is this box that was given to me a few years ago and it's got the word, it's a marble box. it's got the word "hope" on it. >> her hope box. >> it's my hope box. i filmed it with verses that gave me comfort, encouragement, verses that just kept my faith very strong before matthew passed away. >> that morning, after we had been to his house the night before and i was pretty certain that he had taken his life. i got up that morning. i opened my hope box. i went through the verses one more time. then after that, i didn't open it for a month. i couldn't. then i started to think, so where do i go from here? what do you do when your hope has been crushed. the only way i know to rebuild it is to go back to my faith. this time i started putting in verses for hope this amazing verse in 1st corinthians, 15:43

that says our bodies are broken and they will be raised in glory. they are buried in weakness, they will be raised in strength. every time i quote that verse. you know, matthew's body was broken, a gun broke his body. he will be raised if glory. he was buried in weakness. i say, matthew, you were buried in weakness, but you will be raised in strength. so the struggle has been not in believing that god exists. not that god is evil. because god is good. but i have this other little tiny pot when there is questions i can't answer, like, did matthew think of us before he pulled the trigger? was there any moment in which he suffered? why after all those years of prayer and effort did he die? all these things that i have no answers for. and i've put them in this little pot. it's my mystery pot. so here's my hope box.

my mystery pot. so every day almost i fill it with another question that i can't answer. but what i know to be true is that god will answer those questions. they will be answered and my hope is very certain. >> i know, matthew was not in heaven three seconds web when all of his questions were answered. >> his life makes sense to him. >> let's take another short break. i want to continue this about how you managed to get yourselves and your family back on track after the most awful of blows. >> matthew wasn't gay, if he was, he would have loved him unconditionally. it wouldn't have made any difference at all. he was our son. >> he was our son. i think farmers care more about the land

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>> well, you know the lonely tear, you know the moments we crawl in bed and ask god to take it all away. >> is there any sense, rick, despite the appalling despair that you have gone through, is there any sense of relief as a family that matthew is now with god in heaven out of pane? >> yeah, if i didn't have that hope, i would be in ultimate despair. but we have back in a minute our life, our faith, our family, our ministry on the belief that because of jesus christ and

because of what he did on the cross for us, we can have our past forgiven. we have a purpose for living and we have a home in heaven. >> that takes care of my past, my present and my future. >> how much harder has it been for to you deal with the modern curse if you like of internet chatter. >> we ignore it. >> i wasn't going to ask you that. there are two strands that have been particularly vicious in your case one are these fake accounts set up supposedly on your behalf. >> yeah. >> to raise money, which is just theft and you had to shut down hundreds of these things. and secondly the rumor mill. the people trying to say, wow, what happened here was matthew was secretly gay and, therefore, your views on homosexuality somehow tipped him over the edge. you know all this. what is your reaction to this? >> well, first, matthew wasn't gay. if he was, we would have loved him unconditionally. >> it's our son. >> he was our son. it wouldn't have made any

difference at all no doctor would diagnose a patient without seeing him. >> that would be considered unethical. but many bloggers and people on the internet make a diagnosis all the time without any knowledge. you have to ignore it. you can't pay any attention to it. we keep what we call a tough skin and a tender heart. >> do you have either of you any big "what if" when you look back on this? do you have anything that if only we tried. >> okay, that's grief. >> you always second guess yourself in grief. >> that's a part of grief, the what if. i look back at all the years of treatment, all the years of every approach we tried. there i was reading my journal again last night. there were days i'd go what if we had done this, what if we had done that? >> the what if springs to mind for me if i was in your position and thank god i'm not. if i had been, what if knowing

he'd acquired an illegal gun you had reported that to the authorities? now, you already said, kay, he always said if you call the police, i'll kill myself. so, obviously, an incredibly difficult what if. >> absolute ply. >> do you think it could have made any difference? >> no, i don't. >> i don't think it would have made any difference in the fact that if you are determined you're going to figure out a way to take your life. >> he was determined. sitting here in this moment, it's very clinical. it's very -- we can second guess all over the place. but in that moment when you have a mentally ill person who's telling you they're going for take their life and it's your son and you don't want him to take his life, the choices -- mental illness creates such horrendous choices for families. and we are through talking to professionals, his psychiatrist, we were not making these decisions on our own. >> here's another thing, piers, one thing that needs to change

legally is to give families more power in dealing with people who are mentally ill in their family. >> yes. >> because the pendulum has swung the other way to human rights so much that many parents and family members cannot get conservatorship or control over somebody. they see a life deteriorating, falling apart -- >> doctors won't even talk to family members even when the family member has given permission. >> it breaches the family member's life. >> and this is a quagmire, two of the basic rights that the mentally ill have, a right to autonomy and the right to privacy actually stand in the way many times of them getting the help that they need. and i don't have good answers. it's a dance. but we've got to do a better job. >> we had to face that time and time again in what we knew was best for matthew we couldn't do by law. >> let's take a final break. i want to come back and talk

about your last memory of how you'd like him to be remembered. >> in god's garden of grace, even a broken tree bears fruit. once upon a time, an insurance clerk stumbled upon a cottage. [knock] no one was at home, but on the kitchen table sat three insurance policies. the first had lots of coverage.

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with me is pass pastor rick warren and his wife kay. rick, have you questioned any stage whether you should have done more as rick warren, america's pastor, about this issue of mental health before matthew took his life? >> piers, we've always known

since matthew has lived his entire life with mental illness that one day we would be spokespeople for mental illness. kay and i have known this for years and years. the reason we are quiet was primarily to protect matthew's dignity. it was his story to tell. and so we were always praying either a, he'll be healed miraculously or b, we'll get treatment therapy, medicine that helps him manage his disease for the rest of his life and he can tell his story. the only reason that held us back on being public figures on this like we have been on hiv aids and all that was his own dignity. after he died that issue was gone. >> we didn't want him to endure the scrutiny that's being thrown at rick. he was already struggling to be in the public spotlight, to have people scrutinizing his life -- >> he didn't need that. >> he didn't need that. >> how would you like him to be remembered, kay? >> oh. my funny, quirky, ridiculously silly, deeply compassionate. had such a sense of justice.

we put on his marker, compassionate warrior. that sums him up. deep compassion. >> we probably received over 30,000 letters of condolences. the letters that meant the most to me were the people that matthew had led to faith in christ. that are going to be in heaven because of him. and i know the lord, i have a relationship with jesus because of your son over the years. and i remember writing in my journal that in god's garden of grace, even a broken tree bears fruit. and that was true of his life. and i'd like -- you say well, are you happy that it's making a difference? of course i am. i still want my son back. >> absolutely. >> i still want my son back.

but as david said in second samuel, who david lost a son. he said he will not come back to me but i will go to him. and that is the hope of heaven that we have. and that has strength then us even through the darkest day. david says when i go through the vail of the shadow of death, wherever there's a shadow there's a light. and so the key to walking through the vail of the shadow of death is to turn your back on the shadow which is scary and look at the light. and that's how you get through it. >> do you feel he's here now? >> well, i know that he's in heaven looking down on us. and we have many loved ones there. my parents, kay's mom and dad. and that presence of god is more important than the presence of matthew in my life. is that i sense the presence of god in my life very close. but i'm not going through this alone. that's a comfort. >> rick and kay, it's been such an honor and privilege to do this interview. thank you for letting me do it. and my heart goes out to you. it's a heart-breaking story.