repair inside the structures before it gets back to normal. so there's still a lot to do at the navy yard, not to mention all the people who have really been through a lot of mental trauma, quite frankly, wolf. >> the whole notion of his security clearances, the mental illness he may have had, i know that there's a top-to-bottom review that the defense secretary, chuck hagel, has announced. they want to make sure this could never happen again. but everything i've been hearing from a lot of people who are involved in these kinds of issues say there's no guarantee. when you have so many people getting secret clearances, for example, 4 million or 5 million in the federal government, for example, including in the u.s. military, there's no way you can make it 100% perfect. >> that's very true. the other thing i think is very difficult for the authorities, when you look at all of the little red flags, as have been called, throughout the last several years involving encounters with law enforcement, nothing ever rose to the level

that would sort of set off an alarm bell among the people who are doing background checks on this individual. frankly, he had a number of background checks, some last year, some this year. and no one ever turned up anything, wolf. >> joe johns with the latest on that story. we'll continue to follow it. thanks very much. that's it for me. thanks very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer. "crossfire" starts right now. tonight on "crossfire," showdown over shutting down the federal government with obama care at the center of the fight. >> it is a train wreck. it has to go. >> on the left, van jones. on the right, s.e. cupp. in the "crossfire," congressman charlie rangel who supports obama care, and congresswoman michele bachmann who wants to kill it. shut down obama care or the government? tonight on "crossfire."

>> welcome to "crossfire." i'm s.e. cupp on the right. >> and i'm van jones on the left. look, tomorrow, the house is going to vote on a resolution to keep america's government running. it should be pretty straightforward. but instead it's gotten all mixed up with this tea party nonsense about defunding obama care. it's like the toddlers are running the kindergarten over there. and the headmaster, john boehner, is right down there in the playpen with the rest of them. here he is earlier today. >> when it comes to the health care law, the debate in the house has been settled. i think our position is very clear. the law is a train wreck and it's going to raise costs. it's destroying american jobs and it must go. >> who is this guy? watch what he told abc less than one year ago when he was asked about repealing obama care then. >> i think the election changes that. it's pretty clear that the

president was reelected, obama care is the law of the land. >> there we have an adult. you talk about a flip-flop. >> he's an adult when he agrees with you. >> that was the adult. you talk about a flip-flop. you guys have been beating up on president obama saying he's leading from behind. this guy is leading from behind the tea party. am i wrong? >> you're convenient in your discussion of all of this confusion and chaos and childishness on capitol hill. the president of the united states is completely exempt from any blame or lack of leadership. look, what you have to understand about republicans -- when it comes to obama care, this is not just obstructionism. this is a moral hazard for republicans. and implementing obama care is akin to them to signing people up for loans they know they cannot afford. it's a crisis of conscience. so finally what you're seeing here today is the tea party and john boehner and leadership

finally on the same page about the seriousness of stopping obama care. they just have adopted the same strategy finally. >> well, first of all, the way you say it, it just sounds so great, except the problem is that -- >> why, thank you. >> you talk about a train crash. the train crash right now is the republican party. you've got karl rove, "the wall street journal," peter king just came out and said that people in the senate are perpetuating a fraud. republicans in the senate are perpetuating a fraud on the american people. sounds like a train wreck to me because you have extremists in your party that have pulled you guys off into la-la land. >> i don't want you to -- i'm going to let you make karl rove sound credible. but i can tick off similar examples on our side. you have howard dean, the virginia black caucus, barney frank, unions -- there's been a list of democrats and democrat-affiliated groups that have come out to either voice

concerns, ask for changes, express frustration or outright oppose parts of this legislation. >> and never threaten to shut down america's government. and we, frankly, are having, i think, a grown-up discussion inside our party about ways to make it better. what you guys are doing is having a brawl on the front yard in front of everybody when you've got people calling each other fraud's. that's different. my concern is this -- if you have a republican party that a leader like boehner comes out and says, let's move on, and then get pulled out to the right by a small faction, that's not healthy for the republicans or for america. >> in the "crossfire" tonight are democratic congressman charlie rangel and republican congresswoman michele bachmann. welcome to you both. congressman rangel, republicans don't want a government shutdown. speaker boehner is going to the floor tomorrow to keep the government funded and running and he's going to end something

that most americans don't want. explain to me why that's a bad thing. >> speaker boehner wants to be speaker. he cannot be speaker unless everyone who calls themselves a republican vote for him for speaker. and some of them sent the message to remind him that they may not be in the majority of the republican party, but they've got very intelligence leaders in their party. notwithstanding anything he said before, every vote they want to be heard, not as democrats, not as congresspeople. but what they believe. and there's no compromise there. so the whole idea that you're going to repeal medicaid -- or obama care. >> obama care. >> the whole idea is ridiculous

and they know that it can't be done. >> isn't the effort worthwhile, considering -- take a look at this poll -- considering how unpopular the piece of legislation is? >> i said repeal is not going to happen. >> 39% favor it. 57% oppose all of most of it. isn't it a worthwhile exercise to do everything you can to turn it back? >> if it makes you feel good, yes. but it has nothing to do with removing this from the law books at all. >> let me talk -- first of all, welcome. >> thank you, van, so much. good to see you. >> so glad to have you here. you might say that obama care is not popular. you know what's really not popular? shutting down america's government. that's not popular. are you willing to shut down america's government, stop military families from getting their paychecks, shut down $71 million of projects in your own district to get your own way on this? >> have you texted the president. he said tomorrow we're going to do exactly the opposite m the media wants to telegraph to the

american people that somehow one political party wants to shut down government. that's the last thing we're going to do. we're going to fully fund the government. every effort we have is to fully fund the government. we're also listening to the american people. they want jobs, higher paying jobs, higher benefit packages. that's not right wing michele bachmann. that's james hoffa of the teamsters union who's saying obama care is breaking the bank and it's breaking the back of the 40 hour workweek and getting rid of benefit work packages. ask everyone in mine and charlie's districts. 29 1/2 hours is a full-time job? it's not working. >> hold on a second. i think we all want the economy to grow. nobody wants to shut down america's government. but you guys sound like my kids. my kids are like, i didn't eat that cookie, he ate that cookie. i'm not trying to shut down the

government. obama's trying to shut down the government. you have smuggled into what should be a normal bill, a continuing resolution to keep the government going, this other thing object obama care. you have to take responsibility for that -- >> have you talked to bill clinton about that? twice during bill clinton's presidency, he raised the debt ceiling, once with democrats, once with republicans. >> not with a gun to his head -- >> he totally had a gun to his head. >> and let me remind folks that this has happened before, 1973 democrats did the same thing to nixon. they held a gun to his head -- >> it happened with reagan, it happened with clinton and it happened with george h.w. bush. >> she's a lawyer. she's a very good legislator. >> and don't forget attractive. >> what? >> that came out of your mouth. >> i did. people say that's sexist and everything -- >> no, no, no, we like that. >> i don't know about that

"we" -- >> someone has to break up the lovefest. >> i like charlie. >> there's one thing, you're a lawyer and you're a lawmaker and you know it is impossible to repeal a law by making it a poison pill in something that tears down the government. you know that. >> again, charlie, you have to talk to your own former democratic president, bill clinton. he did it twice. once with a republican congress. once with a democrat congress. once george herbert walker bush, once with ronald reagan. >> you would not do that to me, you're too nice a person. the heck with bill clinton. i'm talking about the patient protection affordable care act and that's all. they're talking about a whole lot of side effects, poor people dying and not having -- i'm not talking about that. you're a lawyer. i'm a lawyer. is it possible at all for the affordable care act to be

repealed? >> of course it is. we did it earlier -- it's my bill, by the way. my bill is to repeal obama care. we passed my bill off the house floor earlier this year. >> doesn't it take -- >> charlie, for 100 years, the democrats worked to get socialized medicine in this country. and i'm telling you, it took 100 days for the american -- i know you wouldn't shut down a woman. under no circumstances would you shut down a woman. so i'll have my peace, too. it didn't take 100 days for the american people to say, oops, what happened? first of all, they knew that no one read the bill before it went through. then they were told if they liked their health care, they could keep it. that's not true. then they were told by the president that they would save $2,500 a year on their premium. instead, they're paying $3,000 more a year for their premium. >> you're talking about feeling good and exercising -- >> we're talking about having a job and having some scratch in

your wallet. that's what the american people want. >> repeal means the house and the senate and the president's signature wipes out the -- >> you're a lawyer, charlie. you believe in equal protection for all. you believe everyone should be treated equally. >> i believe in the constitution. >> hey, we're on the same side. but you believe that everyone should be treated equally. i know you do. >> and that's what obama care does. it stops discrimination -- >> unfortunately president obama decided he was going to give an exempt for big business but not for joe six pack. i'm for joe six pack. why aren't you for joe six pack, charlie? >> the president didn't get reelected because you like medicare. >> and this week -- >> the president got reelected on the issue. >> and so did i. >> you've been against socialized medicine, nationalization, call it what you want. >> it's productive. >> you're a very religious person. and i'm stuck with matthews.

take care of the sick and the suffering -- >> oh, my goodness, congressman rangel we are ensuring 11 million people at the expense of 200 million. that seems fundamental -- >> does it help the poor when cleveland clinic announces they're going to let 3,000 people go? >> i'll tell you what helps poor people. >> because they have to get ready to accommodate obama care. >> one at a time. >> i'm sorry. >> i think republicans, i'm going out on a limb here, i think republicans actually have a victory here today. we have speaker boehner and senator ted cruz standing together. that's a win. so next we'll talk about what i think is the bigger fight that's still to come, still out there. tune in.

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>> you have never seen in the history of the united states the debt ceiling or the threat of not raising the debt ceiling being used to extort a president or a governing party. >> that statement got four pinocchios in today's "the wall street journal." but this is a president negotiating with assad through putin. he's a penpal of iran's new president. but he's not going to sit down and negotiate with republicans on the debt and the deficit? isn't that his job? is he serious? >> the republicans have made it abundantly clear that a part of that negotiation would be to defund the affordable care act. and also they want the type of cuts in the deficit -- in the budget that really will kill everything that the president stands for. if only as we see this modest

increase in unemployment, the wealthy are making so much money. the disparity between the poor and the middle class, which is the heart of our great nation, is falling into poverty. we need to have the government to participate with the private sector to get our great country back to work. but when you talk about cut further than the sequestration and to defund, that's not negotiation. that's putting a gun to the president's head. >> congresswoman, has the president been a willing partner on any of these fiscal or budgetary fights? >> he really hasn't because he's used to being george iii. he lays it down and that's the way it is. the president used a term like extortion, no criminality is going on here. and the if he -- let me finish. remember, ronald reagan, bill clinton, george herbert walker

bush, they all worked with congress. the reason why they were successful, i include bill clinton in that list, because he was willing to negotiate. no one gets anywhere if you don't negotiate. you're all married here at this taebl. when you're married, you negotiate. you don't -- i celebrated my 35th wedding anniversary. you don't stay in that situation without negotiating. >> there is a reason this is weird. all these other times you're talking about, we were never down graded. this was a part of normal legislation. because of this kind of extortion -- i'll use the term extortion. this is so outside of our normal -- >> van, no other president has had trillion dollar a year deficit. that's extremely important. >> you ran for president. if you were president of the united states -- >> oh, gee, wouldn't that be a dish. >> exactly. if you were president of the united states and you had a democratic congress that came to you and said you got to triple

the funding for planned parenthood or we'll shut the congress down, would you give in, would you surrender? >> we'd be talking. just like as he said, the president was willing to talk to iraq without pre-conditions. willing to talk to iran without pre-conditions. but he won't talk with a republican without pre-conditions? this is a red line president who decides that he's not negotiating ever. that's his strength. because what we need to have, because if all of this -- what we need to have, it's not about me or charlie or about the president of the united states. do you know who it's about? it's about the african-american youth that can't get a job right now. it's about the people in my district that are losing their health care and it's about all the people right now that aren't getting it. that's what this is about. it's not about us. >> you're talking about closing down the government and losing -- >> why does president obama want to do it? what president obama says, i'm

not negotiating. that means that he is shutting down the government. >> i don't want to get involved in any debate with you. you're so good that i yield on the question of raising your voice. but i won't yield on the question of being a legislator. do you think for one meant tinu affordable care act, that the president agree that it be defunded for any reason? no. >> i absolutely believe in the debt ceiling that the president would be wide to delay obamacare for a year. it is clearl not ready -- in fact, let me tell you one thing. your staff got this same little memo that my staff got. they showed to me yesterday. and i know you're not listening to me, but let me finish. what the memo said is this. the memo says to our staff if you have questions about obama care -- >> one at a time. >> -- if you want to seen up in

the exchanges that our staff have to go into the exchanges on october 1st, if you have questions, we can't answer it for you before october 1st. this is just one small example what's happened to people all across america. >> she's been briefed to get on this show and just never answer any direct question. >> for one has spoken to congresswoman bachmann about how to handle -- >> she's talking about everything except the one question that i ask. this is what we call a poison pill. i remember once the speaker saying -- why 341 times are you voting to defund obamacare? he said because some of our new members haven't had the opportunity to vote against it. so at least he's honest enough to know it's all a gimmick. but when you start talking about closing down the country and

losing the full -- >> and why would the president do that? why would the president talk about shutting down government? unbelievable to me. >> why did you put into a continuing resolution which should be normal business this poisoned pill in order to -- oh, we're not doing anything unusual. this happens all the time. this is an extraordinary act on your part. otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it on national television. >> what's extraordinary is that for every year of barack obama's presidency, we've had over a trillion dollars in deficit every year. never happened before. the worst year of big spending george bush's deficit was under $500 billion. that's the worst year. >> you want to talk about george bush tax cuts, the george bush wars and the george bush crash? >> and now we have obamacare that will -- >> one at a time. >> -- continuous into the future of deficit. that's what we're trying to stop. it's not politics. >> do you agree with me that the

republican party as a national party, it is so dead in ten years based on a whole lot of strange -- >> congressman, let me -- >> you've gotten ridden of gays, of women. and i need the republican party because we have to have someone to beat up on. >> oh, charlie, you'll be soarly disappointed. >> it's good for certain -- >> it's not about politics. it's about people. >> i want to he said wiep end wn to you. do you think president obama has been an effective leader the last six years? >> i don't think there's any question about it. but there was an assumption that the congress would work with help. and he was notified by the leader, the republican leader in the senate, that their one obligation was to bring him down. i thought after the election they would change it, but they didn't. >> so it's all our fault.

>> i want to thank representative -- i want to thank you, congressman rangel and you, michele bachmann. next we'll cease fire and see if there is anything, anything, we can actually agree on.

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tonight on crossfire, we've been debated obamacare and the debt ceiling. can we agree on anything? i think the answer is no.

>> i think that was a very lively conversation. i'm glad we had it. but while we might agree there is dysfunction in washington, we fundamentally will disagree on obamacare and the role it should play. >> the debate continues online. >> join us tomorrow for another edition of crossfire. erin burnett "outfront" starts right now. next, outrage as washington is about to fail the american people again. why the gop is on fire and firing away. plus why is syria moving its chemical weapons again in direct defiance of the united states? and the same company that vetted the man responsible for the navy yard massacre also vetted another infamous figure. an investigation, what is usis? it matters big time. let's go