signaling that he knows over the next couple weeks he's not going to get 100% of what he wants either? >> well, newt, the president has always said if somebody has a good idea to improve obama care, he is open to it. but i have a question for you. if doing the exact same thing twice is the definition of insanity, then what is the definition of doing something more than 40 times and expecting a different result? this is insanity. >> it's courageous. >> supreme court ruled against them, a national election was held on this, they've lost the vote every single time on repealing obama care. so what is the end game here? >> i think the end game here is to consistently watch as more and more negative news, more and more problems, 41 out of 82 deadlines have been missed. the system's not ready. it's totally not ready. even here two nights ago governor o'malley, strong supporter of the president, said there are things we need to fix in obama care. >> absolutely. but that's not what they're attempting to do. they're attempting to throw it out, to repeal it, to get rid of

it. nothing short of that is going to work in their eyes. that's what this debate is about. >> the question today in missouri the president when nobody gets 100%, then maybe he'll bend some from obama care. >> i think the area that needs to bend is that 45 house republicans that's holding everything hostage. but in the crossfire today, nara tanden, one of the architects of obama care, and one of the law's main opponents, matt kibbe. matt, this question goes to you. isn't this insane? don't we know how this is going to end? >> i think the budgeting process is insane. i think the fact that everybody in this town agrees that this law's not ready for primetime and yet they're going ahead suggesting to fund something that nobody thinks works. that's insane. i think the american people had a great victory today. and i think we got to keep pushing because there are some republicans and there are plenty of democrats that don't want to acknowledge that they made a mistake. >> well, that's not how it played out in the vote today.

>> the same thing to do would be to say, you know what, we screwed this up. it doesn't work. people are dumping their employees. >> the american people haven't said that. they didn't say that in a national election. they didn't say that when the law was passed. the supreme court didn't say that. and nothing has changed in every 42 times now that the house has tried to do this. so i'm not sure what you expect to change. >> well, you're not reading the polls i'm reading. because this thing is more and more unpopular every day. >> but people don't want to repeal it. the law has been split along party lines since the law was passed. but people don't want to repeal it because people are already benefitting from it. we're two weeks from this thing being implemented. >> no, they're running from it. they're afraid they're going to lose what they had. >> that's not why -- that's not what senators are saying today. they're definitely not running from the law. >> but let me pick up just for a second because the president talked today about constitutional obligations. the house in fact did pass keeping the government open except for the ones they're fighting over. so in terms of meeting a budgetary obligation, you may

not like it as a design, but they met their constitutional duty to express where they stood and to pass what could become a real law. >> look, you know, i think it's fine for republicans to continue their sort of nihilistic effort to vote against this law time and time again. what the american people are objecting to is holding the government hostage and holding this economy hostage to the whims of the party base, the extreme right wing who has a hostility towards the left. the vast majority of americans oppose shutting the government down over obama care, the affordable care act. these are separate issues in their mind. and in fact i think they would like to return to a debate on jobs and the economy, not, you know, conservatives attempt to undo a law that was passed four years ago. >> right. >> move on. that's what american people are saying. >> exactly. >> move on. >> let me give you one example of how utterly incompetent the current system is. the administration's proposing

that we have an individual mandate in which we're going to rely on the honor system to check on giving people cash. now, unearned income tax credit which the irs does such a bad job that between 21% and 25% of its payments are wrong. about $11 billion to $13 billion a year going to people that don't deserve it. that's with checks and balances. why would you want to move forward and implement on october 1st a system that has no provision for verifying the people that get the money? >> newt, you have long supported the individual mandate. i remember in 2005 when you talked about the individual mandate. so i know you have a lot of expertise on this issue. but the administration has not said that it's not going to actually check the law. it's just saying we're going to implement it and we're going to take time to properly ensure it's working. but they're not saying -- but of course you have to ensure people have the support to actually get health insurance. that's tax credits, health care tax credits, things republicans

have supported for years. >> i have a question about incompetence. >> okay. but in effect your administration is holding up a sign that says would you like some money? >> no, it's not. it's absolutely not. people are going to verify people when they go on the exchange -- yes, there absolutely is. >> there is. >> when they go online there's income verification as well. so, i mean, i appreciate. my own view of this is you're right. people are going to sign up in two weeks. why don't republicans put aside the partisan politics that we've been engaged in year in and year out, make sure like actually see how this law works over the next six months, eight months. come back in a year. >> so we should implement it to see what's in it? >> no. we should implement it -- >> look, the president himself has delayed at least 20 provisions. there have been at least five that have been defunded. and this arbitrary picking winners and losers and having

some grey-suited bureaucrat decide for you how your health care's going to be provided. >> what are you talking about? you know what's ironic about this i say ironic about this, this law is basically creating a health care marketplace where there's private insurance that people can choose from. an idea that came from conservatives, the heritage foundation, et cetera, and implemented by republican governor of massachusetts. and all progressives and democrats and the american people is saying is let's see how it works. it's going to go up in two weeks. it's going to have a six-month period. let's over this next year judge how it's working and put aside the partisan politics, and i'm sorry, get back to the budget. >> right. >> we're talking about the budget. and not just -- >> you know who agrees with you? "the wall street journal" say g ing kamikaze mission.

>> bill o rilely. >> just to be clear, you're standing with the heritage foundation and the "wall street journal" editorial page. >> who are you standing with? >>ed american people. >> american people want washington to work. they want washington to work. >> so many people are so frustrated that we're moving ahead with this crazy law. that nobody knows how it works yet. >> that's not why -- >> that's because it's going to be implemented in two weeks. >> right. >> and that's an open season just like we all get our insurance, there's an open season to sign up. and then -- >> that was the architect who called it a train wreck. i'm not the one -- >> the american people are actually already experiencing the law. adult children on their parents plan. >> i know they're experiencing it. >> children who now have protections from being discriminated for preexisting condition. 8.5 million people have gotten a rebate on insurance. >> one, the american people are also watching the rising cost of the law. and it's cost projections go up,

not down. but second, don't you all -- >> i want you to take on -- >> but don't you two find it a little bit odd that the institution in our system, which is up for re-election next, the u.s. house, i mean in theory -- >> there's u.s. senators up next too. >> just take a look. the entire u.s. house, all 435 have to go and run again. >> uh-huh. >> and in that setting the republicans have overwhelmingly said they believe it is essential to represent their constituents by trying to stop this law before it gives away billions and billions of dollars in systems that don't exist yet. >> first of all, we've had -- we've had an election of the entire house of representatives. >> right. >> since this bill passed. >> you've had two. >> but we've also had an election of the president and the senate. and the president had an opponent that said he wanted to defund obama care, get rid of it. and he lost. >> it's a split decision. >> senators gain. so actually two of the three

branches here that actually campaigned democrats gained seats. so i don't think the issue here is -- i think the american people actually feel this issue has been litigated. and on the important issue of health care costs, newt, i think what's been vitally important about this law is that we have had a historic reduction in health care costs. even cms that came out this week acknowledged that these costs that we have in the health care system, health care inflation which you know people see in their premiums, those are going down. projections of these costs were supposed to be double, triple what they are. and we're seeing lower health care costs for everybody. >> wait a second. first of all, the costs went down because we went into a deep recession. >> that's not -- >> nope, that is not the reason. >> they have continued to rise faster than the rate of inflation. >> no, they have risen faster than the rate of inflation for 50 years and they're slowing. >> the projections -- >> no. not accurate. >> you describe a split decision. the american people elected a republican house that deeply believes it should be changed.

>> your house republicans won. actually, some lost. its majority went down. >> so, doesn't that suggest that the will of the nation is to find a compromise? >> you know, we have a way to decide this right now, which is you can ask people. people have been asked, do you think we should defund the government? i mean, we should defund obama care as a strategy on the budget? and their response, two-thirds of americans, are saying no to this strategy. so we have a way to ask that question right now. and the vast majority of americans think it's the wrong strategy. so what i'd say is, you know, i think people can recognize there's a budget debate, there's a question on the debt limit. let's have a debate about those issues and put obama care, the affordable care act, put that to the side. >> which means in fact never touch -- you know, the president has volunteered to debate -- >> if your view is right, then the senate will pass it. and it isn't. >> when does the president want to debate obama care? in retirement? >> i think the time he did in

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welcome back. thanks to house republicans, we're ten days from a possible government shutdown. we've seen their pr games on television all day. we've all watched it. but this is not just a political ploy. there are consequences to shutting down the government. the last time this happened, 800,000 federal employees didn't get paychecks. military veterans lost services. it cost taxpayers $2 billion. that's where we're heading again. listen to what nancy pelosi just told cnn's candy crowley. >> republicans put a legislation on the floor that was intended to shut down government. for them, that's a victory because they're anti-government idealogues. >> they want to defund obama care. >> no, they want to shut down the government. the effect of putting the affordable care act on the bill is to shut down government. they know that. they know that has no prospect

of prevailing. >> so, matt, i have a question for you. i want to have an honest discussion about this. we both know obama care's not going to be defunded. and what's going to happen is this bill's going to go over to the senate, harry reid is going to strip the obama care provision out of the cr and they're going to send us a bill back to the house. and even your poster child, senator cruz, admitted that there's nothing he can do about it. that it's up to the house. there's nothing the senate can do to impact this debate. again, where does this end? if this ends in a government shutdown, why in the world would you want to do that? >> i don't think it does end in a government shutdown. but let's talk about insanity, $17 trillion in debt, $100 trillion in unfunded liabilities. why would you add another entitlement program? we all know how they grow. there's history here. but here's the point, if the republicans don't stand for what they ran on, if they don't do what the american people are looking for, they're really not in a negotiation at all. the whole budget process is crazy. the fact we're going to do a

three-month cr, that's insane. >> so republicans leaders are telling you this is silly? >> no. not at all. >> even john boehner a few months ago said this was the law of land and indicated he didn't want to do this. >> this is america forcing washington to do the right thing. >> i don't think so. i think it's 45 house republicans -- >> let's talk about examples where we all said it was impossible. do you all remember when nancy pelosi and harry reid and barack obama extendsed the bush tax rates? everybody said that was crazy but yet it happened. republican when republicans and democrats were saying we can't do this, it's too draconian. >> you think this is the magic formula. the 43rd time on defunding is actually going to get somewhere? >> no. the magic formula is if you don't show up to fight, you never win. >> even though half of your party doesn't want this fight. he's going into the alamo and already conceding how it's going to end.

>> there's a lot of lobbyists that would love to see this -- >> they would love to see the law implemented. >> right. now you're standing with the "wall street journal" editorial -- >> no, i'm standing with the millions of americans who have not been able to afford insurance for decades. and now they're on the brink of being able to afford it because they're going to be able to buy private insurance at a private insurance exchange and be able to get the care they need for the first time ever. that's who i'm standing with. and that's where the american people understand where this is going. >> first of all -- >> it did do it in massachusetts, a place that -- >> you supported that. >> and with mitt romney, love that. >> but nationally -- >> people are right occasionally. >> no, but nationally i think even if this is fully implemented, there's still millions of people who won't be covered. i think the studies indicate millions. >> that is true, there will be some people who won't be funded. there's tens of millions who will be covered as long as we

actually move forward. >> i think part of the point matt's making is this is not free money. i mean, this is a country whose projections now show that our debt is going to be up to 100% of our entire economy -- >> it was 238%, those numbers are actually coming down. coming down dramatically. but i appreciate that we have these arguments. these arguments sound very familiar because we had them when the law passed. unfortunately it did pass, in your view. but we had an election after it passed in 2012. and so i think the issue here is, again, i think there are people -- there is the base of the republican party who's angry and obviously calling the shots in the house republican caucus. but the truth is the vast majority of americans don't want to defund this law and talk about the fact that a government shutdown that will actually have consequences for real people. >> well, wait a second -- >> for soldiers, for americans -- >> first of all, you all are eager to talk about a government shutdown even though they just passed the bill to keep the

government open. second, this is the beginning of the negotiation. i mean, essentially the battle cry in the washington establishment is if only house republicans would surrender before negotiating, then we could accept their surrender and we wouldn't have to go through any process of negotiating. two things of this bill, the first is -- >> the health care bill? >> the health care bill. you've seen home depot i think today announce the you've had going into a system. ups has said their part time people will go into the system. are not you seeing a lot more, and there are several quotes today from form he administration officials saying we're seeing a lot more big companies begin to put people into the system that we really thought would continue to insure and that will have a big financial impact. >> first walgreens is creating

another big form of private insurance so that had nothing to do with it. but there are company like trader joe's and have seen the affordable care act offers benefit to their low income workers, and they're saying let's have these workers take advantage of this. and trader joe's will still provide subsidies. so this is people getting private insurance. it is not dumping into anything. these are people who are getting private insurance. and this is a good thing. >> and it fixes a piece of a very broken health care system. this is a big part. >> if the bigger company are doing this, it means substantially higher cost to the federal government. >> if you look at this, trader joe's is looking at a very small percentage, home depot. they're talking about a small percentage of the workers are not doing it for their full time

employe employees. look, the thing is that s these are marginal costs. >> how much did the government save because we're not paying for uncompensated care? >> obviously a lot. a huge savings. >> so over here you have this huge savings. you don't want to admit you have this big growing cost. >> you described it. potentially big cost. we don't have those costs now. i think conservatives are looking at each and every example. >> come on. you don't have the savings either. >> now we have projected costs. >> i think we should talk about savings. if you look at health care costs over the last several years, something that everyone was really concerned about, health care, inflation, the premium costs, rising costs, that's a cost for every american. those costs are at decades long lows. and i think the affordable care act as well as the broader

economy are having an impact. experts, all experts agree it is the affordable care act. that's where we're seeing dramatic savings for every american. >> so one other thing of consequence duffle all when you designed the bill really intend to create a model by which small company could give their employees a chance to leave the union multiemployer insurance? or is that an accidental side effect of the bill? >> i think it is fascinating. now we have newt gingrich championing unions. that's "wall street journal." >> we actually thought through it was important to have -- >> maybe we should change that. >> i just want to know if it was part of the generally not thought through bill duffle think through undermining the allies? >> the most important aspect is that everyone will have coverage. the folks in unions will have coverage. >> what happened to the promise that everybody got to keep the

insurance they had? we haven't talked about that. and yet they're all being dumped into a system that they didn't want to go into. they didn't choose. they didn't choose. they're being dumped by their employers. >> that's an excellent point. what's happening in trader joe's and these other, the employees are getting a better deal. they're saving money. that's the bottom line. it is an important option. >> did they get that choice? >> no. i wouldn't think of it as dumped if i was saving money and had more choices. >> hears the point. so there is always somebody else, some gray suited bureaucrat. maybe they're at the irs, maybe in the insurance department at home depot deciding for you. that's not what we want. we want patients and doctors to decide. >> this is clearly going to go on. i want to thank you. we're both grateful that you two came and joined us. next, we cease fire. we do agree on one thing. ,j

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tonight on "crossfire," we've been debating obamacare and how to prevent a government shutdown now. let's call a cease fire. i think what we hopefully can agree on, this is a very difficult contentious thing. i think this will be a very difficult two or three week, maybe even four or five weeks. i think at the end of it we're likely to get an agreement negotiated that not anyone is totally happy with.

the president's comment, no one will get 100% i think will be very prescient. >> i agree with that. i think that the big variables, what's the consequence to the american people? as washington is debating over a political ploy. what's the consequence to the american people? and number two -- who pays the political price? right now american people are pointing to republicans. so i think this is insanity. >> i'm not worried about politics. i think the president can't make three partisan speeches in one week and then explain that he really sincerely wants to negotiate. >> he's been open to negotiations on good ideas to improve this bill cynic it passed. >> i think our cease fire is about as shaky as the congressmen's relationship. >> you can weigh in on our facebook or twitter. if the government shuts down, which party deserves the blame? only 17% would blame the democrats. i'm making my case. and 83% would blame republicans.

also, we noticed as the responses flood in the, many wish that both was an option. the debate continues online at cnn doc/crossfire. join us monday for another edition of "crossfire." erin burnett "outfront" starts right now. "outfront," the battle has begun over obamacare and government shutdown. the ultimate loser? probably you. plus, amanda knox on trial again. she said she won't face judge in italy. the u.s. government may decide, should this country force her extradition? and 850 snakes found in one man's suburban home. jack hanna explains how it could have gotten this far. let's go "outfront."