a week later. her real speech was better, frankly. i also think we should all use the merritt wever method from now on. when someone gives you an award or gives you a casual compliment. remember it's a quick thank you followed immediately by, i gotta go. i challenge you to find a better approach. that's it for us. "piers morgan live" starts now. this is cnn breaking news. >> this is "piers morgan live." tonight, breaking news on the brutal terror attack in kenya. the foreign minister there tells pbs two or three americans among the attackers. and the stunning new video. women and children hiding dozens of shoppers cut down in the saturday afternoon in the mall. 62 people dead. more than 175 wounded. hundreds running for their lives. many remain unaccounted for. >> translator: he shot at my

head but luckily it hit the wall behind me. >> they said you've been killing our kids so we're going to kill yours, too. >> going floor by floor looking for any remaining terrorists. could it happen here? >> honestly, this is a target to me. i'm a little nervous being here. >> i talked to nick christov about what happened. plus, grand old slugfest with republicans battling it out over a possible government shutdown. i'll talk to our next generation, meghan mccain. why she calls her famous father a badass and what she thinks of the republican party. >> there are people that really agree with me and people that think i'm the republican antichrist. >> bewee we begin with the dead terror attack on the shopping mall in niroby. what is the latest in terms of whether this operation is still ongoing, how many terrorists we think are still alive and how many people we may think have actually died in reality here.

>> well, the latest from the authorities are they believe this is the end game. this is an end game that's been going on for quite some time now. it's about three or four hours since the authorities announced they were in the final stages of their major assault. they have said that they cleared out almost all of the hostages. that they don't really want to give definitive figures. they said three of the hostage takers have now passed away. we were given a figure of 10 to 15 initial hostage takers. so we're going to -- we're going to speculate that there are about ten remaining in there with the hostages. they say they've cleared most of the area and they've cordoned off the areas in which the hostagetakers are locked down in. but, of course, this is still a very, very delicate, painstaking operation, piers. when you are dealing with people who have continuously asserted they are happy to die. they want to die, and the only reason some of these hostages are still alive is because it's

prolonging the attention that they are getting. the death toll has been incredibly tough to pin down. it went up and then down a little. it's currently at around 62 but we're hearing from eyewitnesses who were evacuated quite late that there are still bodies piled up in there unaccounted for. kenyan red cross said there are about 65 people still missing. not in the mortuaries or hospitals. we've been seeing people waiting here, keeping vigil for the last few days hoping against hope the loved ones they can't find that perhaps they are still in there tonight. >> and "the washington post" is reporting tonight that maybe as many as two or three of the terrorists here may be american. what do we know about that? >> well, the kenyan foreign minister told connect the world's becky anderson on cnn that not only did she believe they were americans but they were also brits, other western,

european nationalities in there as well. al shabaab has been quite boastfully claiming there were three americans in there. one canadian. a finnish person and a brit. so this is something they clearly have been quite proud of because they feel that this shows the reach that they have been able to achieve. what has been interesting is the way the kenyan authorities have, from the beginning, characterized this. not only as a campaign, an operation that's involved multiple nationalities but that they believe that this isn't just al shabaab. al shabaab is an al qaeda affiliate but they think this goes just beyond the al qaeda affiliation. they believe that al qaeda are involved in the coordination. the kenyan foreign minister is saying this is global -- this is a global terror network we're fighting here. she believes al shabaab are the main force behind this. certainly, this has already gone on longer than the mumbai attack did. this is far beyond the capacity

that any of us could have believed al shabaab were capable of on their own. >> thank you very much. now i want to bring in judy. she came from kenya to study in the united states. her brother moses works at the westgate mall. he served the attack by locking himself in a control room for six hours. thank you for joining me. first of all, how is your brother? >> he is well, and he is safe, fine. he's a little shaken up, but he is fine and safe. >> that's a huge relief for you and everyone, obviously, that knows him. now moses works at the westgate mall as a computer specialist in the mall security officer. what did he do when this attack started? >> he works as a computer engineer. that is what he does. he's designated as a computer engineer in the mall, and he works with cameras, with the

security cameras. >> so he would have seen everything as it was happening in realtime which must have been absolutely terrifying for him. what has he told you about the incident itself and what he saw? >> one of the things he says is he was pretty terrified because he has never seen anybody shoot anyone apart from tv, in a movie. and one of the few things he said that was really, really frightening for him to see somebody just shoot another person and a person actually dies. that really shook him up. >> and did it seem to be completely indiscriminate because there is a suggestion that they were only targeting non-muslims. from what your brother saw, they were killing almost anybody they found? >> there was -- the muslim at one point were told they could leave and they shot everybody

else. i think they didn't want to shoot muslims they were just targeting everybody else. >> judith, thank you so much for joining me. i really appreciate it. >> okay. thank you. >> al shabaab claimed three of the terrorists who attacked them all were from this country. pbs reports say two or three americans were among the attackers. this is unconfirmed yet. a u.s. law enforcement official tells cnn they can't confirm it. the investigation is ongoing. joining me now, a man who knows the war on terror from inside. ali sufan is an fbi special agent and the author of "the black banners." it's a terrible atrocity. it's ongoing. we don't know the full scale of this yet. over 60 are unaccounted for and they may or may not emerge alive from this. but either way, one of the worst terror attacks of recent years. what do we know about the perpetrators? >> the shabaab movement started as a nationalistic movement. their main focus was in somalia.

they never conducted attacks until 2010 outside somalia. the first attack outside somalia was actually the attack in uganda in july '13, i believe 2010 on the eve of the world cup. but recently after the african union participated in a peacekeeping mission inside somal somalia, shabaab has been defeated from mogadishu and from other main cities to include the port city. they lost wide territory. they lost significantly in many areas of somalia. they lost even among the population, the support that they once had with the population. a jihadi faction that already sought alliance to al qaeda and to ayman zawahiri appears to be in control of the shabaab movement. that faction was already in the -- in, you know, claiming

that they are part of al qaeda now. >> we know there was a warning recently from al zawahiri. do we think this may have been connected to that? are they acting at his direction? >> i think there was a lot of interesting similarities between what ayman zawahiri instructed al qaeda affiliates to do and what they did. said attack western target. this mall is considered a western target. try not to kill muslims. kill only infidels. that's exactly what they appear they are trying to do. and also at the same time he said take hostages. and if you look at the way they conducted this new modus oprandi of attack, it is aimed to create maximum impact and maximum exposure. and that's why they are prolonging the attack as much as they can because the more the attack goes on, the more we're talking about it and people are watching and they hope they will get more recruits and more fund-raising. >> of course, the u.n. general assembly here in new york, which is maximum publicity for them here with all the world leaders.

in terms of the makeup of this particular group of terrorists that carried out the operation, there is a suggestion, which is unconfirmed yet, that there may be two, maybe three americans amongst those ranks. plus a brit, plus other europeans. if that turns out to be true, what does that tell us about al shabaab but also al qaeda now in terms of how far it spreads. >> this is very interesting. i'm not surprised there's americans involved with the shabaab. there's probably about 50 americans that actually left the united states and went to join a shabaab in somalia. a few of them died. >> would they all be from somalian origin originally? >> it's a combination. there are few from somalian origin but a few who converted to islam and went to somalia to fight having this romantic vision about, you know, jihad and about joining a rebel group. anti-establishment-type of group. but also on the same time, a shabaab is probably one of the only affiliates of al qaeda that

was able to recruit people from the west and from the united states. now we have probably today about -- from the 50, we have probably about 25 that we have no idea where they are. you know, they are not dead. they are still in somalia. and this is scary because some of these guys made it back to the united states, they might create some problems. >> and what you're seeing is a creeping radicalization of the younger element here. and we saw it in boston with the bombings there. it is an entity which many, many terror groups are now operating under. >> after 9/11, almost immediately after 9/ 1, al qaeda switched its roll from being an operational entity to being a motivational entity. so we were focusing on al qaeda's central organization. we didn't focus on the narrative. al qaeda gave a lot of power to the affiliates today.

and if you look at the narrative that only existed once in afghanistan and pakistan, now you see it in -- with nigeria. you see it in libya, in mali, in south of yemen, in pakistan. just this weekend, al qaeda affiliated groups killed more than 100 people between karachi and between the -- blowing up the church in karachi, between what's happening today in syria, between killing -- conducting terrorist attacks in iraq against shia targets. so al qaeda is basically gaining a lot of power and that narrative that we disregarded for the long time is becoming the fuel that's bringing al qaeda back. >> ali suofan, thank you. crisis in syria. is there a connection? i'll ask "the new york times" columnist. plus, could it happen here? seven days and counting until a government shutdown. i'll talk to a maverick mccain. not that one. his daughter, megan.

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i want to express personally my condolences to not only president kenyatta, who lost family members in the attack, but to the kenyan people.

we stand with them against this terrible outrage that occurred. >> president obama today reacting to the terror attacks in kenya. he is in new york city right now preparing to address the u.n. general assembly tomorrow morning. kenya will certainly be on that agenda, as well as syria. but is there a deeper connection between the two? nick, put this into some kind of big picture context. what is the link between what we saw happening in kenya, what you have seen happening in syria? you just got back from syria. is there a context on which this all comes together? >> you know, i do think that -- if you push me to make linkages, one can talk about a youth bowl, which tends to make countries unstable, the extra percentage of young men you have

>> a lack of education and employment opportunities. they are in both countries. the most fundamental commonality is it's a humanitarian disaster in somalia extending into kenya. >> al shabob, does that exist or is it al qaeda in somalia? >> they are a real organization and it has been tied more with al qaeda. we helped create it. in 2006, there was an islamic movement in somalia. there was a moderate movement, but the bush administration was there and we know through wikileaks, the twist of the arms through ethiopians.

that created this nationalist movement and then gathered behind al sha bob who wore were these crazy jihadis. they ran with it and then wreaking extraordinary violence and aside from the terror, their incompetence led to more than a quarter million deaths. >> if two or three of the terrorists here were from america to start with, it doesn't take a leap of imagination to see this outrage and they could try something similar to the american shopping mall. could that happen? what does america do? >> it could indeed happen. there were a lot of terror organizations, but do not have access. al sha bob has been able to

recruit people, particularly in minnesota and they have recruited about 20 people over the time. some of those have gone over somalia. maybe and maybe not. there some left and that is a really scary prospect. >> let's turn to syria. you have been out on the border of one of the camps. what is the humanitarian part? put aside the debate we had in the last two weeks. >> i have to say when you are talking to these kids, the face of the syrian refugee is a child's face. half of them are children. the crisis has been resolved because the chemical weapons agreement. the american politicians crisis. you are still getting people fleeing the country every 15 seconds and 5,000 people are being killed a month.

you are on a trajectory of those with hundreds of thousands being killed in syria. warfare in iraq and lebanon. it will be incredibly difficult to put them back together. >> another link between what happened this syria and the syria situation is vladimir putin raced to the rescue of assad that kept him in power. possibly in perpetuity. one of the reasons is self interest. they didn't want the rebels that may have al qaeda infiltrators getting their hands on the weapons. they can take on the russians. these things are a huge leap of faith in your mind. >> yeah. that's true. the jihadis in syria, it has been really sad to see the rise in jihadis and recently they took this town and this

journalist used to go and that was the gateway to and they did that because the west was not supporting the free syrian army. they had them supporting the jihad jihadis. syria's version. >> in terms of what we know about syria if assad doesn't deliver as many suspect he won't, should america still contemplate taking military action. you have quite steadfast. >> i lose fans every time i call for that, but i believe it's not a good option, but a better option to attack assad's air force. she has a limited number of aircraft using only six airstrips. we can grade his ability to am bo civilians, but whatever you think about that, even if you don't agree with me on that, we can push to create more.

aid workers can get access to the people. the syrian who is need help. that is cyber warfare. that can be done incredibly carefully. with the lives at stake, i would be prepared to do that. >> i a couple of lawyers defended the somalians who have been caught up with this activity and been in prison. we will take on that and about the radicalvation of the somalians and what it all means going forward.

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>> we've had several successful cases with the fbi in the last year, picking up al shabaab members who actively tried to recruit and train in the united states to go to kenya and somalia. >> al shabaab connections in this country. breaking news again. they told pbs two or three americans are among the o tackers. back in the defense, you represented a minnesota man convicted of recruiting young

men and his cocounsel, don hope. welcome to you both. let me start with you. me about the case you were involved in. your reaction? >> we were involved in representing a man who was accused of helping convince and transport young men from minneapolis to travel to somalia. ultimately to participate and attend in a training camp run by al shabaab in the southern part of somalia. the case was tried in federal district court in minneapolis and our client was found guilty and a number of people who were by the experience made an effort with the government. in the case that was alleged, i

believe there were 18 young and they have been persuaded to go to somalia to fight for al shabaab. the events in kenya are of course appalling. very upsetting and i looked at the information that was provided about the names of the people who might be americans and neither of us recognized any of the names. >> but john, if i can come to you, this terms of the event, does it entirely surprise you given what you have learned during the case that you are acting in. >> no, it doesn't. we learned in our case listening to the government's evidence that the group is extremely

violent. had issued rocket-propelled agree nate launchers and ak-47s to its members. we knew they had attacked government offices in other parts of somalia. we knew they were responsible for suicide attacks. what surprised me was the extent of the violence against unarmed civilians at the mall in nairobi. >> when you hear this, cloerl there it all was. if you studied these cases, it came up and had all the warping signs you could wish for. they had tragically come to reality out of somalia into kenya and they could come here. these are people who have been living right in the heart of america. what does america do about this? how do you target the somali

connection in minneapolis in particular? >> you can't protect every mall, every public gathering. if people are willing to kill others with ak-47s, you can't protect that end. you can focus on intelligence and i think the intelligence and the law enforcement has done that in minneapolis and you have to work with a local mosques and they are the eyes and ears of the community. they are aghast when there somali american who is join al shabaab. it embarrasses them and other muslims are being killed. i think that they are the best hope to try to catch these people. >> the way to encourage that, all somalis living in america. this will be one of the problems where you have to be careful how you handle the communities. they are harbored without

knowing it. some of the radical young terrorists. >> there tens of thousands of somali americans in minneapolis. the overwhelming majority are pius, law ar-abiding people. these are not the enmow. these are people to work with to stop the attacks. >> michael jackson's death is behind bars. will the concert 3promoter be liable also? that's next. count on angie's list. angie's list -- reviews you can trust.

>> that was the guilty verdict. in the death of michael jackson. they are beginning another case related to his death against the promoter, aeg. they say he is liable in his death. the lawyers argue that motorcycle jackson chose and controlled dr. murray. conrad murray's attorney, thank you for joining us. how do you think this is all going to unravel. we are getting to the end of this trial.

do you think conrad murray may be vindicated? >> i think hoe will be vindicated in some sense. i don't know if it will make a difference as far as the appeal, but in terms of the court of public opinion, i hope he will be vindicated. >> what have we learned new that you maybe department hear in the criminal case some. >> a lot of evidence that was excluded came out in civil kril like evidence of michael jackson's dire financial situation and evidence of decades use of olympic yoids and you see propofol infusions in the 90s. >> what is the significance of all that for this particular trial? >> for the civil trial or the criminal? >> for the civil trial, what is the significance in this particular case?

>> i certainly think that jack is culpable for his own death to a large degree. >> where do you see his own culpability? >> i believe he may have done things that were negligent, but noble he is responsible for michael jackson's death in any way. >> because you think he was 50 years old and he was taking these points for a long time and was making sure he got that? >> exactly. perhaps my client should have walked away when he encountered a situation when he left his practice and became jackson's physician, but in that case jackson would have gotten the drugs from someone else and my client tried to help him. >> he has been a hated figure since he was convict and he is about to come out of prison after serving two years of

a-year sentence. how has he coped? he was houjly popular with patients and reputation up to this point had been impeccable? how is he dealing with the damage to the reputation and the public hostility? >> it's very difficult. he is very isolated right now and being in jail has been probably the most difficult thing he said or had to undergo in his life. he is addressinga i lot of those issues when he comes out and speaking the truth, but it has been difficult for him to sit there and have to listen to everything all over again. in this trial hoe has no representation. >> does he wish he never got involved with michael jackson? is it. >> i think that would be a logical conclusion. jackson was his friend, but he did not know the situation in which he found himself. he stated many times if he knew

that jackson was a drug addict, he never would have given up his practices to be his personal physician. >> thank you very much indeed. i want to bring in tom mesereau, michael jackson's attorney during the child molestation trial and his attorney into the jack family for the wrongful death suit. he has been the fall guy for michael jackson's death. listening to his attorney, they feel or he feels that he was not reckless. michael jackson was a grown 50-year-old man who for decades had taken drugs and determined to do so up to the point where he died. what was your reaction to that? >> propofol is used every minute of the day in hospitals all over the world. you talk to any anesthesiologist who is skilled in using it, it's a marvelous and safe drug if used properly. the problem here is conrad

murray wanted to make a lot of money. wanted to have a lot of fame and embark on the biggest come back in entertainment history and ordered as i understand it four gallons of propofol and was giving it to michaelson without the proper equipment to monitor his heart and circulation. he was derelict and negligent and lost his license, i believe in three states or more. he was using a drug that is considered very safe when administered properly is ridiculous. he shirked responsibility and tried to cover up the crime and never told the paramedics and the police and went to ucla medical center and didn't tell them he gave them prop fol. he is the cause of his own problems in my opinion. >> he is obviously not the guy who has been directly accused in the civil action, aeg the company that was promoting. in terms of where this action

itself, taking it ins ailation, what do you expect the verdict to be from all we heard in terms of evidence. >> there two questions. one, did aeg, an $8 billion corporation with lawyers and consult apts, did they negligently hire conrad murray or supervise him or retain his services because they wanted to be part of a big come back. there e-mails where they talk about putting pressure on him allegedly through payment of his salary which was $150,000 a month. they agreed to pay him and sent an agreement for him to sign where they agreed to provide all the medical equipment and an assistant to him. this was part of a negotiation that was never finalized. they want to remind him who is paying a salary. they investigated the background they turned around and said they

had not really investigated and why did they think they had to? is it why did they mention the term. i think in the end they will be held responsible. if they are, the question is what are the damages? is it i knew michael jack and took over his criminal defense months before the trial started. the trial was five months. this is the only man i met in my lifetime who would get up on a given day and spur of the moment go anywhere in the world and make millions of dollars. i think that the damage award could be close to a billion dollars if they find that aeg assumed these risks and supports. i think they are going to win. >> you knew michael jackson very, very well and he was a forceful character. where does michael jackson's own culpability going to play?

>> well, there has been evidence he obtained a lot of prescription drugs and evidence he used propofol, but he didn't die. the people who were giving him propofol didn't kill him. as i understand it, it was used under safe circumstances. by physicians who knew what they were doing. it's not a treatment for insomnia. the physicians that gave e it to him were der-elect, but it didn't take his life. this guy was giving him propofol without equipment and popper assistance and walked out of the room and was on the phone. he caused hads death. if you look backward asks say michael jackson was taking prescription drugs and propofol, he department die for it. >> thank you very much indeed. >> thank you, pierce. >> like father like daughter. meghan cane takes on the tea party and some republicans think

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. >> the showdown on capitol hill. a battle again. the federal government and this time a republican effort to defund them. to john mccain, a spoke as always. meghan mccain just as outspoken as her dad. she often clashes with her own party and the host of a new talk show. >> what is it like being the daughter of john mccain?

>> i love my dad and my country and i am lucky and blessed and i have this craze dad. people would prefer if we had this turbulent relationship. we talk every day and i love my parents. >> he is a bad as. >> do you agree with him on most things? >> on probably 70%. maybe 75%. social issues we diverge. he's 77 and i'm 29. there will be differences in our outlook on life. i agree with him on ia lot and he taught caught me to love politics. i was on his first campaign as a 14-year-old girl. as an adult, i had so much experience in the presidential primary process that has just been amazing. >> what do you think of the state of the gop.

once again we are seeing the tea party rearing its heads and challenging the status quo. i don't see how this makes the republican party more electable. it looks like they can't make up their minds. >> it's very splintered. the tea party and the more moderates who i think live in reality, but i get called a republican and a bad republican almost daily. people agree agree with me and people think i am the republican anti-christ. depending on who is watching, take your choice. >> how do you as a party huf to becoming in agreement and more electable? >> i have said for years we have to come to terms with the trends that are changing. gay marriage has won. it's a topic that we have won and people will have to deal with. a lot of people in the republican party want to cling

to the past and every time they say i am a bad republican and your father was too moderate. what happens if we elect someone like rick santorum who is an extreme conservative? they were not blood baths, but they were not good. 54 are who is potentially a candidate some. >> are i was at my dad's birthday party and it was an old campaign manager who had been in his circle for a while. they said point to jeb bush, but the bush name is at a pointed and he is much more conservative than people realize. i like marco rubio. i don't know right now. >> chris christie? >>. >> i used to love him, but i'm done with him right now. ever since his speech at the convention, he talked about himself the entire time. i think politicians, there is a level of self promotion you have

to do, but i would like the next leader in the next nominee to maybe be a little more interested in helping the country than just that platform. >> in your show you do a big issue every episode. one is feminism. i talked to billy ray cyrus about miley and twerk. are you a twerker? >> no one wants to see me twerk. no one wants to see that at all. >> is miley cyrus age 20 making this lope from hannah montana to sex kidden on stage. is that feminism? is that somebody using their feminism to challenge people? >> i ask this question. i have done entries in playboy and i like attention from men from time to time. can i do all these things and be a femme innist?

miley cyrus is young and i have no problem with everything she has done. the criticism is unwarranted. to be a woman in america is to be controversial. >> absolutely right. >> i am not big on judging women either. let miley cyrus be 20. >> some of her most vocal critics have been people like cher. britney spears said i love what she is doing. cher regrets it and back tracked. i thought it was childish, i must say. >> i don't understand that. i don't find it offensive. twerk and miley cyrus in a bikini is not rocking my world every day. >>. >> you have confessed to succ s

sexting. the it was uncomfortable watching that with my father. >> let's watch an episode. >> do you think mom could be a politician? >> are i don't think mom could be a politician. our mother is the greatest politician's wife in the history of the free world. we had a norman rockwell childhood. >> lemon chicken? >>. >> i think my mom is a kind of feminist. >> i met your mom and that phrase about behind every great man is a greater woman. that has never been more accurate. you area i terrific family. thank you for coming in. raising mccain is on pivot tv every saturday at 10:00 p.m. >> also on itunes. thank you. >> we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] this store knows how to handle a saturday crowd. ♪ [ male announcer ] the parking lot helps by letting us know who's coming. the carts keep everyone on the right track.

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>> billy ray cyrus with his you in sock. we wanted to let you know the full version of that song is on

our website. later this week, the 42nd president of the united states, bill clinton in the midst of raging speculation of hillary clinton's plans. that's wednesday and on thursday, my interview with chelsea clinton. that's all for us tonight. >> good evening. at this hour the deadly standoff continues. it has been days since people shopping, eating and spending time with their families in an upscale mall in kenya walked into violence. the situation is unresolved and reports about who was in control of the west gate shopping mall in ni robey and how many hostages remain inside. all the hostages have been released and according to the red cross, 65 people are still unaccounted for. they revised the death toll down to 62. some victims were miscounted. the details have been and remain d