>> he shot at my head, but luckily it hit the wall behind me. >> he said you have been killing our kids, so we're going to kill your children, too. >> police going floor by floor looking for any remaining terrorists. could it happen here? >> honestly, this is a target to me, i'm a little nervous being here. >> i talked about what was happening in africa could be related to syria. plus, grand old slug fest, americans duking it out over the shutdown. and new, what meghan thinks of the republican party. >> there are people who agree with me, and people who think i'm the republican anti-christ.

we'll begin with the story tonight. the deadly attack on the shopping mall in nairobi. what is the latest in terms of how the operation is still ongoing? how many terrorists are alive, and how many people do they believe have actually died in reality here. >> reporter: well, the latest from the kenyan authorities believe this is the end game, a game that has been going on for quite sometime now. they announced they were in the final stages of their assault. they have said that they cleared out all of the hostages. they don't really want to give definitive figures, saying that three of the hostages passed away. we were given a figure of ten to 15 hostage-takers. so we're going to speculate that there are about ten remaining in there with the hostages. they say they have cleared most of the area.

and they have cordoned off the area in which the hostages were taken. but still, this is a very painstaking operation. when you deal with people who say they are happy to die. they want to die. and the only reason that some of the hostages are still alive is that it is prolonging the attention they're getting. the death toll is very hard to pin down. it went up and down, currently around 62. but we're hearing from eyewitnesss who were evacuated quite late that there are still bodies piled up in there, unaccounted for. the kenyan red cross said there were about 65 people still missing. more in the mortuaries, and the hospitals. in the past few days, they have been hoping against hope that a the loved ones people can't find that perhaps they are still in there tonight, piers.

>> and "the washington post" reports tonight that maybe as many as two or three of the terrorists here may be american. what do we know about that? >> reporter: well, the kenyan foreign minister said not only did she believe there were americans but also brits and other european nationalities, as well. al-shabaab has been boasting that there were three americans in there. one canadian, a finnish person, and a brit. so this is something that they are clearly proud of, because they say it shows the reach that they have been able to achieve. what has been interesting is the way the kenyan authorities have characterized this, that they believe this is not just al-shabaab. al-shabaab, of course is an al-qaeda affiliate, but they are going beyond the al-qaeda affiliation. they believe that al-qaeda is

involved in the coordination. and also, the kenyan minister believes it is global terror forces. they believes that al-shabaab is certainly the main force behind this. this has gone on far beyond the kenyan attack, this is something they believe that al-shabaab is not just capable on their own. >> and her brother, moses, works at the west gate mall, he survived the attack by locking himself in the control room. tell me, judith, how is your brother? >> he is well and safe. he is fine, a little shaken up. but he is fine and safe. >> yes, a huge relief for you and everyone obviously that knows him. now, moses works at the west gate mall as a computer

specialist in the mall's security office. what did he do when this attack started? >> he works as a computer engineer -- that is what he does. he is designated as a computer engineer in the mall. and he works with the cameras, with the security cameras. >> so he would have seen everything as it was happening in realtime, which must have been absolutely terrifying for him. what did he tell you about the incident that he saw? >> one of the things he said was he was pretty terrified. he has never seen anyone shoot, apart from tv and movies. and one of the things he said was it was really, really frightening for him to see somebody shoot a person and another person actually dies. that really shook him up. >> reporter: and did it seem to be completely indiscriminate?

because there was a suggestion they were only targeting nonmuslims. but from what your brother saw did it seem like they were killing almost anybody that they found? >> there was the -- the muslims at one point were told they could leave. and they showed everybody else -- i think they didn't want to shoot muslims, i think, they were just targeting everybody else. >> judith, thank you so much for joining me. i really appreciate it. >> okay, thank you. al-shabaab claimed three of the terrorists who attacked the mall were from this country. and pbs reports that two or three americans were indeed among the attackers. this was unconfirmed yet. a u.s. law enforcement official said they can't confirm it. the investigation is continuing. joining me now, a former fbi special agent. ali, it is a terrible atrocity,

ongoing, we don't know the full scale of it yet. we know over 60 people are unaccounted for. and they may not emerge alive. but either way, one of the worst terror attacks in years. what do we know about them? >> well, the shabaab movement started years ago, they never conducted attacks until 2010 outside somalia. the first attack outside somalia was actually the attack in uganda in july 13th, on the eve of the world cup. but recently after the african union participated in a peace-keeping mission inside somalia, shabaab has been defeated from mogadishu and from other main cities to include the port city. and they lost significantly in many areas of somalia. they lost even in the population the support they once had with

the population. jihadi faction that sought alliance appears now to be in control of the al-shabaab movement. and that faction was already in the -- claiming that they are part of al-qaeda now. >> i mean, we know there was a warning recently fromm -- al zawahir. >> they say attack the mall, it is a western target, try not to kill the muslims, kill the inif i -- infidels. if you look at the way they created this, it is created for maximum attack and exposure.

that is why they are prolonging the attack as long as they can, because the more the attack goes on, they hope they get more recruits and more funding. >> and of course, we have the general assembly which is maximum publicity for them and the world leaders. in terms of the makeup of this particular group of terrorists that carried out this operation, there is a suggestion, unconfirmed yet, that there could be two, maybe three americans, plus other brits and europeans. if that turns out to be true, what does that tell us as far as al-qaeda and al-shabaab, as far as it spreads? >> i am not surprised there are americans involved with shabaab. there are actually 50 americans that left the united states and went to join the shabaab -- a few of them died. >> would they be of somali origin?

>> a few of them are, but there are some that converted to islam and went to fight, having this romantic vision about jihad and joining a rebel group, anti-establishment rebel group. but also at the same time, shabaab is probably one of tonight only affiliates of al-qaeda that was able to recruit people from the west and from the united states. now, we have probably 25 that we have no idea where they are. they are not dead, they are still in somalia. and this is scary, because if some of these guys made it back to the united states they might create problems. >> and what you're seeing is a creeping radicalization of the younger people here. we saw it in boston with the tsarnaev brothers. is this where the terror groups are operating?

>> immediately after 9/11, al-qaeda switched its role from being an operational entity to being a motivational entity. so we focused on the al-qaeda organization, and not the narrative. al-qaeda gave a lot of power to their affiliates today. if you look at the narrative that only once happened in pakistan, you see it in yemen, in pakistan, just this weekend. al-qaeda-affiliated groups killed more than 100 people between karachi, so al-qaeda is basically gaining a lot of power and that narrative that we disregarded for a long time is becoming the fuel that is

bringing al-qaeda back. >> thank you very much, indeed. >> thank you, sir. >> when we come back, terror in kenya, crisis in syria, is there a connection? and could it happen here? i talked to the maverick mccain, not that one, his daughter, meghan. huh...fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. mmmhmmm...everybody knows that. well, did you know that old macdonald was a really bad speller? your word is...cow. cow. cow. c...o...w... ...e...i...e...i...o. [buzzer] dangnabbit. geico. fifteen minutes could save you...well, you know. where would you go?iving away a trip every day. woman: 'greece.' woman 2: 'i want to go to bora bora.' man: 'i'd always like to go to china.' anncr: download the expedia app and your next trip could be on us.

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i want to express personally my condolences to not only president kenyatta, who lost

family members in the attack, but to the kenyan people. we stand with them against this terrible outrage, that this occurred. >> president obama today reacting to the terror attacks in kenya. he is in new york city right now preparing to address the u.n. general assembly tomorrow morning. kenya will certainly be on that agenda, as well as syria. let's put this into a big picture context. what is the link between what we saw happening in kenya, what you have seen happening in syria? you just got back from syria, is there a context on which this all comes together? >> you know, i do think that -- if you push me to make linkages, one can talk about a youth bowl, which tends to make countries unstable, the extra percentage of young men you have at a certain age creates a risk. certainly it is that way in

somalia, and there are jihadi elements in both countries. but the most fundamental commonalty is that it is a humanitarian disaster in syria, and now we have the disaster of al-shabaab in somalia, extending into kenya. >> al-shabaab, does it really exist or is it al-qaeda that just happens to exist in somalia? >> oh, no, al-shabaab is a real organization and more recently has been tied up with al-qaeda. but we inadvertently helped to create it. but the bush administration was terrified about the islamist organization and the name. we now know that we twisted their arm and it created a nationalist movement among somalis, who then gathered behind al-shabaab, who were these crazy jihadis, and gave

them a brief window of opportunity, which they then ran with, creating extraordinary violence and aside from the terror, their incompetent during a drought led to 2 million deaths. >> if two or three of the terrorists here were actually from america to start with, it doesn't take a big leap of imagination, given this publicity they have gotten from this outrage, they could create a similar accusation in a mall in america. could it happen? and what does america do about it? >> i think it indeed could happen, there are a lot of other terror organization that is would like to strike america but they don't have access. and al-shabaab has been able to recruit people, particularly in minnesota. they supposedly have been able to recruit about 20 people over time.

and fortunately, some of them have gone to somalia. maybe some are left, but i think it is a really scary prospect. >> let's talk about syria, you were just there at the border in one of the camps there, what is the situation with the humanitarian action on the ground. >> piers, when you're out there on the border talking to these kids, the face of a syrian refugee today is a child's face. half of them are children. and when you hear americans talk about oh, maybe the crisis is resolved because of the chemical weapons agreement, maybe the american politicians' crisis is solved, not the humanitarian crisis. every 15 seconds 5,000 people are killed a month. i think basically we're on a trajectory that is going to lead hundreds of thousands of people killed in syria.

the jordanian monarchy may collapse. and it will be incredibly difficult to put syria back together. >> i mean, another link you could make between what happened in syria and of course, vladimir putin raced to the rescue of assad. keeping him in power. possibly in perputity, maybe one reason some speculate is the rebels who they don't want getting their hands on the weapons. these are not a huge leap of faith -- >> indeed, the jihadis in syria, for anybody who has been following syria, it has been so sad to see the rise of jihadi, and it was kind of the gate way to northern syria. and they did that, i think,

because the west was not supporting the free syrian army moderate rebels while you had the others supporting the jihadis, they're a serious version of al-shabaab. >> what can be done if assad doesn't deliver, as many suspect he wouldn't. should america still contemplate military action? you have been quite steadfast in this? >> and i lose fans every time i say that. i believe we're on a trajectory, it is not a good option, but i think it is a better option to attack assad's air force. we can degrade his ability to bomb civilians. but look, whatever you think about that, even if you don't agree with me on that, we can push to create more humanitarian access in syria so that aid workers can actually get access to people being bombed, get them

health care and food to the 7 million syrians who need help. and i also wonder about something we don't know a lot about. but that is cyber warfare. you know, we have the capability presumably to disrupt assad's ability to run his government. to run his military to mounts to attacks using cyber intrusions. i think this is something that should be done very carefully, but when you have hundreds of thousands of lives at stake, it should be consider. >> joining us now, a person caught up in this before and in prison before. we'll get your take on that. and more on the situation going forward.

we have had several successful cases with the fbi recently within the last year, picking up al-shabaab members in the united states who have actively tried to recruit and train in the united states. and then send them overseas to kenya and somalia. >> our breaking news again, kenya, prime minister telling two americans are involved in the attacks. and a minnesota man who had been convicted of recruiting men to join al-shabaab.

thank you, gentlemen, welcome both. tell me about the case you were involved in, and what your reaction is to what has happened in kenya as a result. >> well, we were involved in representing a man who was accused of helping convince and transport young men from a mosque in minneapolis to travel to somalia, ultimately to participate and attend a training camp, run by al-shabaab in a southern part of somalia. and the case was tried in federal district court here in minneapolis. and our client was found guilty. a number of people who were recruited by the conspiracy made agreements to testify for the government. so in the case that was alleged, i believe there were 18 young

men who were said to have been persuaded to go to somalia to fight for al-shabaab. the events in kenya are of course, appalling, and very upsetting. i looked at the information that was provided about the names of people who might be americans. and neither mr. homan nor i recognized any of the names. >> john homan, if i can come to you, the events in kenya, does it surprise you given what you learned about this whole operation during the case that you were acting in? >> well, no, it doesn't. we learned in our case listening to the government's evidence that the group is extremely violent. had issued rocket-propelled

grenade launchers and ak-47 to its members. we knew that they had attacked government offices in other parts of somalia. we knew that they were responsible for suicide attacks. what surprised me was the extent of the violence against unarmed civilians at the mall in nairobi. >> and when you hear this, it clearly -- there it always. and if you had studied these cases that came up, you had had all the warning signs you could possibly wish for. they have tragically come to reality out of somalia into kenya, and as we discussed earlier they could come here. these are people who have been living, two or three of them at least, right in the heart of america. what does america do about this? how do you target the somali

connection in minneapolis, in particular? >> well, you can't protect every mall, every public gathering. if people are willing to kill others with ak-47s, you can't protect at that end. what you can do is focus on intelligence-gathering. and i think the intelligence community and the law enforcement has already done that in minneapolis. and you have to work with the local imams, the local mosques, because they are the eyes and ears in that community. and they are aghast when there are local somali-americans who join al-shabaab. it embarrasses them, other muslims are being killed. and i think they are our best hope to try to catch these people and prevent it from happening before it starts. >> and the way to encourage that is not to demonize all the somalis living in america. this is one of the problems that happened after 9/11, how do you handle the communities, which are harboring sometimes without even knowing it, the young terrorists. >> there are absolutely tens of

thousands of young somali-americans in minneapolis, and the overwhelming majority are pious, law-abiding people who think this is appalling, even indeed already denounced these attacks. these are not the enemy, people to work with to help stop the attacks. >> thank you all very much indeed. when we come back, who is to blame for michael jackson's death? conrad murray is in jail, but we'll talk to michael's attorney, that is next.. eam, b. for the times you need to double-check the temperature on the thermometer, be ready. for high fever, nothing works faster or lasts longer. be ready with children's motrin.

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we, the jury in the above action, find the defendant, conrad robert murray, guilty of the crime of involuntary manslaughter. >> that was a guilty verdict during the trial after the death of michael jackson, jackson's mother and three children claim the company is liable in his death because they say he negligently hired conrad murray, joining me now, conrad's attorney, valerie wise, thank you for joining us. how do you think it will turn out, now we're getting into the middle of the trial. do you think conrad murray will be vindicated?

>> i think he will in some sense, i don't know how that will affect the appeal on the trial record. i certainly hope he will be vindicated to some degree. >> what have we learned on the civil action that we maybe didn't hear on the criminal case that could change people's thinking? >> well, a lot of evidence that was excluded at the criminal trial came out in the civil trial, such as evidence of michael jackson's dire financial situation. evidence of his decades use of opioids, and the fact that he received propofol injections back in the '90s. >> and what is the significance for the trial -- >> for the civil or criminal? >> for the civil trial, what is the significance of that news in this particular case? >> well, i think it certainly points that jackson is culpable for his own death, at least partly.

>> where do you see conrad's own culpability as being inarguable? >> well, i believe he did some things that were negligent, but i don't believe he was responsible for michael jackson's death in any way. >> because you think that michael jackson was 50 years old and had been taking these drugs for a long time. and was quite persistent in making sure he got them? >> exactly, perhaps my client should have walked away when he encountered the situation, the business he walked away from when he became michael's doctor. >> how has he coped with going from -- i interviewed some of

his patients. he was hugely popular with them, and his reputation was impeccable. how is he dealing with the damage to his reputation and the public hostility that comes from what you're accused of? >> it is very difficult. he is very isolated right now. and being in jail is probably the most difficult thing he has ever had to undergo in his life. he is looking forward to addressing a lot of these issues when he gets out and speaking the truth. but it is very difficult for him to sit there and listen to everything all over again in the civil trial. and in this trial, he has no representation. >> does he wish he never had gotten involved with michael jackson? >> well, i think that would be a logical conclusion. jackson was his friend. but he did not know the situation in which he found himself. and he has stated many times if

he knew that jackson was a drug addict, he never would have given up his practice to become michael jackson's personal physician. >> thank you very much, i want to bring in michael jackson's attorney during his child molestation trial. conrad murray has been the fall guy for michael jackson's death and is about to come out after serving more than two years in prison. but they feel that he feels pretty agrieved, that he was not directly responsible. that michael jackson was a grown man who for decades had taken drugs and was determined to do so right up until the point he died. what is your point on that? >> piers, you talk to any doctor who is skilled at using pro for follow, they will tell you it is a safe drug if used properly. the problem is conrad wanted to make a lot of money and have a

lot of fame. and wanted to embark on the biggest comeback in history. he ordered four gallons of propophol, was not monitoring it. he was derelict, has lost his license in three or more states. and to blame michael jackson because he was using a drug that was considered very safe when administered properly is ridiculous. he tried to cover up the crime. he never had told the paramedics he had given him propophol, he is the cause a of his own problems. >> he is not the guy who was directly involved in the civil action. in terms of where this action itself -- just taking it in isolation, what do you expect

the verdict to me from what we've heard in terms of evidence? >> well, i think there are two questions, piers, one, did aeg, a large, sophisticated corporation with a battery of sophisticated lawyers and consultants, did they assume the risk of murray? did they negligently hire him or supervise him or retain his services because they wanted to be a part of this huge comeback, the biggest in entertainment history? and there are some e-mails where they talk about they're putting pressure on him allegedly through payment of his salary, which was $150,000 a month. they agreed to pay him. sent in an agreement for him to sign where they provide all the medical equipment and system to him. they now say that it was part of a negotiation. that it was never finalized. there are also e-mails where they remind him who is paying his salary. they sent back an e-mail saying they never did investigate him. why did they mention the term? i think in the end, aeg is going

to be held responsible. if they are responsible, then what are the damages? you know, i knew michael jackson, and took over the criminal trial that lasted five months. this is the only man who get up on a given day, on the spur of the moment make millions and millions of dollars. i believe that the damage could be close to a billion if aeg assumes the risks and responsibilities. i think the plaintiffs will win. >> you knew michael jackson very well, he was also a forceful character, he was somebody who was known to be taking drugs for a very long period of time. he was 50 years old, not a kid anymore. in terms of the responsibility, the circumstances leading up to his death, where does michael jackson's own culpability come into play? >> well, look, there was evidence that he obtained

prescriptions from the pharmacies and physicians. but he didn't die. the people who were giving him this, they didn't kill him. as i understand it, he was given that under a physician's order. the physicians that gave it to him were -- derelict, this doctor gave it to him without assistance, walked out of the room. was on the phone. i think he caused his death. if you looked back wards and said michael jackson was taking propophol, he didn't die from it. and coming up, why some republicans think she is the anti-christ. >> called a republican in name only, and a bad republican almost daily. ♪

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a showdown is looming on capitol hill tonight, a republican house and the democratic senate are battling again and risking a shutdown of the federal government in a week over an effort to defund barack obama care. john mccain disagrees. and his daughter is just as outspoken as her dad. she is the host of a new talk show called "raising mccain." welcome to you. >> thank you so much. >> what is it like being the daughter of john mccain. i love john mccain. >> i love john mccain as well.

it's -- i love my dad. i love my family. i'm so lucky and blessed and have this crazy life. my dad is the best dad ever. people would prefer if we had a turbulent relationship. we talk every day. i think he is a badass. >> do you agree with him on most things political? >> i agree with him on probably 70%. social issues we diverge. he is 77 years old and i'm almost 29. we have differences in our outlook on life. he taught me to love politics and about the american political process. he was a 14-year-old girl on his first campaign. i have had so much experience in the primary process. it's just been amazing. >> what do you make of the state of the g.o.p. right now? we are seeing the party pretty divided.

the tea party rearing its head challenging the status quo. i don't see how it makes the republican party more electable. they can't decide who they want to be. >> it is very splintered. there is the tea party and the moderates who i think live in reality. but i am called a republican in name only and a bad republican almost daily. some think i'm the republican antichrist. >> how do you, as a party, do you think, move to becoming in agreement and more electable? >> i have been saying this for years. we have come to terms with the trends. gay marriage has won and people will have to deal. with but a lot of people in the republican party want to cling to the past and eh time people say i'm a bad republican and your father is too moderate i

challenge them to tell me what is going to happen if we electric santorum. it would be a blood bath. this last two weren't blood baths. >> who do you see as the potential candidate? 2016? >> i was at my dad's birthday party having this conversation with his old campaign manager and others. and they said signs print to jeb bush. but i think he is more conservative than people realize. i like marco rubio. >> chris christie? >> i used to love chris christie but i'm done right now. >> why? >> ever since his speech at the convention. he just talked about himself the entire time. i think politicians there is some level of self promotion you have to do. but i would like the next leader of the republican party to be a

little more interested in helping the country. >> in your show you do a big issue every episode and one is feminism and you talked to billy ray cyrus about his daughter. >> no one wants to see me twerk. >> your dad has done a twerk in his time. >> no one wants to see that at all. >> is miley cyrus, age 20, making this leap from hannah montana to sex kitten on stage is that good feminism? using their feminist guile to challenge people. >> i ask this question. i'm a woman who likes to dress provocatively can i do these things and be a feminist. i think she is young and learning about her sexuality. i have no problem with what she has done.

the criticism is unwarranted to. be a woman in america is to be controversial especially if you are a pop star. >> absolutely right. >> i'm not big on judging women. i have to many attacks, let her be 20. >> what is interesting to me is some of her most vocal critics have been people like cher. i think cher regrets it. she has backtracked but i thought that was churlish. >> i don't understood women attacking women. i don't -- miley cyrus in a bikini on stage is not going to -- >> you have confessed to sexting. >> we did an episode on privacy. i have boyfriends and i have sectioned before. was uncomfortable to watch that with my father. >> let's watch a clip from

"raising mccain". >> do you think that mom could be a politician? >> i don't think that mom could be a politician. i think our mother is the greatest politician's wife in the history of the free world. >> mom an her wedding chicken. >> but i think my mom is a kind of feminist. >> i've met your mom and i think that phrase of behind a great man is a greater woman has never been more accurate than in your family. thank you for coming in. "raising mccain" airs every saturday at 10:00 p.m. on pivot tv. >> also on itunes. >> we'll be right back. for those nights when it's more than a bad dream, be ready. for the times you need to double-check the temperature on the thermometer, be ready.

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♪ >> billy ray cyrus on the show last week singing "hope is just ahead" the full version of the song is on our website. and later this week i talk with the 42nd president of the united states, bill clinton. the former president sits down

for an interview on wednesday. on thursday, my interview with chelsea clinton. that's all for us tonight. "ac360 later" starts right now.. at this hour the deadly standoff continues. it has now been four days since people shopping, eating and spending time with their families in an upscale mall in kenya walked into violence. the situation is unresolved and reports about who was in control of the west gate shopping mall in nairobi and how many hostages remain alive inside. some reports saying that all the hostages have been released and according to the red cross, 65 people are still unaccounted for. they revised the death toll down to 62. some victims were miscounted. the details have been and remain fluid with each day and every hour new details are surfacing and tonight we have a much clearer picture of how the attack unf