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>> welcome back to crossfire. today is the first day you can go online and sign up for health care through the obama care exchanges. now many people tried. so many people tried they crashed the system. now we're here with democratic senator debbie stab now and republican senator tom coburn. why is it the case if this is such a terrible program that so many people are signing up for they're crashing the system. >> it may not be the number. it may be the system. the system may suck. there are a couple points i think. number one, health care is a problem in our country. you know, the difference is we had no republican agree that this was the best way to fix it. as a matter of fact it didn't get one republican voigt in the house or senate. so theres with a way to do their

where you didn't have this polarization. i would posit to you that the two things that are out of control in our country that we're not doing well on are health care and education. both of those are majority controlled by the federal government. there's not anything the federal government does that doesn't cause things to cost more. you just name one. so why would we go in a direction that exacerbates the problems of the system we have now? there's some good things in the affordable care act, i won't deny that. i fought insurance companies my whole life. so there are some great things in it that i'm glad are there. but the overterm system is going to call us trillions of dollars. >> let me jump in there. remember this was based on massachusetts and what is called romney care and what everybody

loves. rates have gone down. more employers are covering people than before. what we're looking at is something based on private sector competition. and it's also saying, you know what? if you have insurance, you ought to get what you're paying for. you can't get dropped. >> let me ask you about the mechanics of this. because the whole thing to me seems to hinge on the idea that you will coerce millions of young people who really didn't want to buy insurance before obama care to suddenly buy it and in some cases buy it at a more expensive cost than before obama care. i'll just talk to you about detroit michigan, 27 year old single person will sigh a 150% increase in premiums, thanks to obama care. if you build it and no one comes, doesn't this whole thing collapse? >> well, yes, except they're coming because we saw crashing on the computers, because everybody's coming. >> the right people will have to

come, right? >> let me talk to you about the 17 year old who will be able to find for the first time comprehensive basic care starting at $80 a month. what we are seeing now, across the country, is six out of ten people that haven't had insurance before are going to be able to find it for under a hundred dollars a month, including, and i have to keep stressing again, things like maternity care, preventive care, mental health, doctor visits, et cetera, et cetera. and here's the other reality of that. they walk into the emergency room, they get, they get care. we all pay for it. >> right. >> at the highest rates possible. everybody who has insurance is paying at least $1,000 more a year. so where's the personal responsibility? >> let me ask you a question. >> the reality to that is, is why would you pay a hundred dollars a month or $80 a month, when you can pay a $95 fine and

if you get sick or get pregnant you get care. so the point is, the economic -- >> the higher fine. >> sure. if you're going to have a, if -- >> the highest possible cost. we don't want that. >> make it economically incentive to put them into the group and this bill does not do that. >> we could make the fines higher. >> i know you have put a lot of thought into this. and i want to talk about this individual mandate which has been demonized. it is a very conservative principle. it is the individual responsibility mandate. nobody should be walking around in the united states without health care that can get it as the senator just said, expecting if they dive bomb themselves into the emergency room we're going to pick up the tab. to me, the individual mandate is conservative, it also is honest. because i know a lot of republicans say they want to keep this idea from obama care that nobody can be denied coverage.

well, hold on a second. you can't get something for nothing. if sick people are going to take out of the system, well people have to put into the system. why don't you support this? >> here's the difference is, if you want to have an individual mandate. give everybody the capability to have the same thing, all right? so what you do, if you really believe what you just said, give everybody a refundable tax credit. and let everybody the reason health care costs, 50% more than it should in this country is because there's not a real market and you won't get a real market with this. there won't be any transparency. if you give everybody a refundable tax credit in this country including the irresponsible biker who breaks his pelvis and we're all paying for it. the state, you're auto enroll if you don't enroll yourself in a high deductible plan so we spread the risk. we'll have the government run and decide what you will get by the different plans. we've decided what you'll get rather than you deciding. here's the thing that will

happen. here's what people will see. you will -- you're never going on see the same doctor year in and year out. >> time-out. time-out. first of all, in michigan, right now there are 43 different plans. all we're talking about is allowing small businesses and individuals to go into an insurance pool so they can get the same kind of rate and have the same kind of clout. >> the small business pool is not even available. >> it is coming online. and folks can go online. in another month they can sign up. there is no evidence, zero, zero, zero that folks are not going to be able to see the doctor that they want to see. none. ask the folks in massachusetts. not true. not true. >> in new hampshire, 12 of the main hospitals aren't even in the group. so if you live in new hampshire, here's 12 hospitals you used to be able to go to. you cannot go to any of them now. >> all i can tell you is that,

first of all -- >> so there's no proof. that is true. >> i have no idea what's happening. >> that's right. you have no idea. that's why we're making claims that aren't accurate. ? in new hampshire, maybe we need to figure out what to do. >> to give you a better example, and you tell me what's wrong with this. in arkansas, which is a good red state, they've looked at this. you say the government will be mandating stuff themselves decided to create not a public option but a private option. they're bringing in insurance options. >> i'm sorry. with medicaid. >> medicaid dollars. and career creating little market places where people have choices. >> how did that happen? you had republicans and democrats come together and get creative. >> thud administration grant them an exemption. but not grant oklahoma one for theirs yx? because they have a democratic governor. oklahoma has a republican governor. so when we asked for something

very creative, we were told no. >> we weren't told no and we have a republican governor. did you have a reformed medical man? no. you're just expanding medicaid. >> not true. but all of this, as we look forward. we have to remember where we have come from here. the millions of people that couldn't find any kind of insurance or paid a lot of money and got almost nothing when they got sick, got kicked off. what we're talking about is how do we make this better? i'm not even suggesting that this is perfect. that we don't need to work on it. >> i know it's not perfect. >> i can tell you, it is a whole lot better than what tens of millions of americans have and women who have been discriminated against on their rates, who haven't been able to get preventive care. >> the government can buy your health care for you. >> this is not about government. >> oh, yes, it is. >> no, it's not. you're going on to a website.

you are going to pick out your own insurance policy. >> you're not going to. you have to. you have to. that's an offense. that's an offense. >> you have to have both these guys back. we have about 20 more questions we need to get to but i have one left. now, listen. the constitution says you have to keep your salaries. americans are mad about that. you've got congress people in the senate. you've got a young veteran who says she will give her salary back. people will give their salaries to charity. who are you giving your salaries away to? i'm sure you won't keep them because your poor staffers are suffering. >> my staffers are working. >> without pay. >> no, no, my staffers are working with pay. right now. they're doing oversight on the federal government. they're continuing to work on the -- >> 800,000 federal boringers are not. >> noeg is for that. >> i'm going to keep my salary and make sure i spend it and tithe and it give to it

charities and do the thing that i've always done good for you. >> i'm not going to stop working. >> 80% of my staff is on furlough. i'm going to be contributing mine on a daily basis for every day we are not seeing a government open, i'm contributing. >> thank you. next we cease fire and see if there is anything we can agree on. ♪ [ male announcer ] let's go places. but let's be ready. ♪ let's do our homework. ♪ let's look out for each other. let's look both ways before crossing. ♪ let's remember what's important. let's be optimistic. but just in case -- let's be ready. toyota. let's go places, safely.

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tonight on "cross fire," we've been debating the government shutdown. let's call a cease fire. is there anything we can agree on? republicans made an offer on a piecemeal approach that would fund certain seconders of the government. the white house immediately rejected and it nancy pelosi called that a athleticic. i think that you and i would agree that we have to get certain sectors of the economy back online. veterans services, for example. >> i think the one thing we can agree on is that veterans should not suffer in this situation. i agree that i don't like ted cruz, now speaker of the house and senator and i guess king of america, saying this will open, this won't hope. he is right about the veterans and we should make sure the veterans don't suffer. >> hopefully we can come together and make it happen. to go our facebook page or on twitter and weigh in on our fire back question. should members of congress be paid during the government shutdown? right now 3% of you say yes. 97% say no.

that settles that. >> from the left, i'm van jones. >> from the right, i'm s.e. cupp. join us tomorrow on "crossfire." erin burnett starts right now. >> outfront, news. the house votes on three bill that they say could ease the shutdown pain. plus a deadly rock slide in colorado claims five members of the same family. in the midst of the tragedy, there was a heroic choice that saved one person's life. we are there live with that story. and who is to blame for this violent confrontation? this violent confrontation between a driver and a motorcycle gang. we'll show you the entire tape. let's go "outfront."

>> good evening. i'm erin burn a