the american people there. >> okay. we'll see. >> the debate continues online at cnn.com/crossfire as well as facebook and twitter. from the left i'm stephanie cut. >> from the right i'm s.e. cupp. join us tomorrow for another edition of "crossfire." welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world. a glimmer of hope. word that republicans in congress may be considering a short term debt deal. and there's no time to waste. as you can sigh, the clock at the bottom of your screen shows we're counting down to that deadline pretty fast. it doesn't sound like president obama and speaker john boehner are quite ready to sing kumbaya yet. >> we can't make extortion part of our routine. democracy doesn't function this way.

>> what the president said today if there is unconditional surrenderer he'll talk to us. that's not the way it works. >> tonight i'll talk to the real people who are paying the pretty awful price for that lack of work. also, two congress women go led to head on capitol hill. plus my power panel of experts and i mean surging power tonight, josh bower, kelly an and more and democrats may not be talking yet but we most certainly are. hopefully, we can get answers before the end of the show. begin with the breaking news. a tiny morsal of hope slithered it's way into washington d.c. is it hope? can i dare to dream? >> you can dare to dream all you want but i don't want you to have the hopes crushed as soon as you get them up, piers, because we seen movies like this before in washington. here is what i'm hearing from senor republicans in the house, what they heard from the president today, maybe what they

wanted to hear or i think they hear from the president today which was perhaps an opening to pass a or agree to a short-term increase in the debt ceiling, which could allow both sides time, maybe four to six weeks to talk about the issues, some issues relating to the debt and deficit would be doable from the perspective of senior republicans. the thing that is so incredible is that it seems pretty clear that they want to get that message out through us. they are not talking to the white house. there is no negotiation because as we've heard the president say now probably a million times, he's not going to negotiate this. so we're in this weird situation where in order for the president and the white house to keep that promise, the president is keeping his options open in press conferences about a potential short-term deal and

house republicans, at least sources i'm talking to are saying well, we would be open to that so that's how discussions are going on now. we don't know exactly what could be doable when we look at the specifics of it because they are not talking to one another. >> right, how does this debt ceiling deal, if it is four to six weeks, how does that impact on the shutdown? does that automatically release the shutdown? does the government reopen pending those deliberations? >> you know, because they are not speaking to one another, it's a very hard question to answer. you would think that if they do sort of have a temporary respite and make sure the government would open along with that but again, it's hard to know. what is so interesting is that piers, republican sources, or at least one i talked to said that he knows that -- of specific conversations that senior house republicans have had with ceos from across the country put up

to calling them by senior white house officials to say lots of things but mostly what can we do here on the debt ceiling, why is that? because the white house needs to stick to their promise, not to negotiate. >> absolutely -- sorry, but it is absolutely pathetic, isn't it, when you hear things like that. like the stuff you did no sixth -- i used to. i may have been too old then. dana bash, thank you as always, your long suffering, a brilliant job. thank you for joining me again tonight. what will it take to turn this glimmer of hope, if it is that, into a deal? joining me, debbie, i know you like the guy, but i listened at the president today for 19 minutes giving a press conference which he refused to talk to television journalist and went on and on -- one of the longest drones i think i ever listened to, now the end of it, nothing. nothing actually happened. nothing was achieved. all he did was inform us why

nothing is happening and he could have used that time to me if he sat in a room with john boehner until they got an agreement. what is the matter with them? >> there is absolutely nothing the matter with president obama on the contrary what is going on here is that republicans are dug in so far that they practically got the dirt over the tops of their heads and someone rational needs to throw them a cover -- a shovel. >> so have the democrats. >> no, no -- >> yes, 10% more americans blame the republicans. and yes, some of the republicans like ted cruz have been absurdly intransigent trying to shut down

obama care and so on. but there comes a point if you're the president of the united states and it's your government that shuts down, you got to be the big guy. get in the room and do business. >> yes, he does and he's willing to do that but not as he said with a gun to our heads, not where the republicans are saying that we must in order to reopen the government, we must have changes to obama care, that we have to do it their way and that the only way the government is going to open is if we hold the economy hostage and change the affordable care act, which is law for three years. and again, we've heard this before. >> okay. >> and upheld by the supreme court and election held. it's simple. we need to vote on a clean spending resolution to reopen the government and pay the nation's bills and then yes, we should sit down and there are a myriad of things to negotiate over to discuss. >> okay. >> we have entitlement -- >> you're turning into president obama with his monologue so let me cut you off.

>> sure. >> marsha blackburn, i mean, all this is true depending who you talk to on both sides. personally i blame the republicans more than the democrats. >> i would expect you to. >> like most of the americans, i blame both sides. >> that's right. >> i want to see business done. >> you're exactly right. they should be blaming both sides. and i can tell you what, pierce, if it were up to debbie and i, you would see us sit down as a table and work something out. >> there is no question. >> she and i would agree about that. >> we already talked about that. >> we can get it done. >> here is where we -- here is what we have done. we have offered and continued to offer -- we have sent four different crs, a budget, 12 different funding bills -- >> oh, come on, that's simply not true. >> and with bipartisan support, we have had 200 democrats in the house vote with us on different funding measures, piers, that we have sent to the senate. harry reid will not take them up. and then we have a president who

says he doesn't want to negotiate with us. now, we have never had a president not negotiate a debt ceiling deal. we know that our nation cannot continue to borrow $2 billion a day, we ask them, join us at the table, work with us, we need to work to a solution that is going to be fair for the american taxpayer and is going to be respectful -- >> i want to try and keep the speeches to a minimum. >> okay. >> let me go back to debbie. all right, let's get to the bigger picture here. the shutdown is very annoying and we'll see as i speak to people at the moment, very harrowing for many americans but let's put that to one side for a moment because the much bigger problem looming is the debt ceiling issue. >> absolutely. >> if that was not to go the right way and there was no deal done would be catastrophes. the republicans know they can't win on the shutdown argument, what they want to do is wrap it around the grand bargain on the

debt ceiling not with standing the irritation of the shutdown, debbie, do you think that may be the sensible way to resolve it? get it done in one go? >> i think we would be thrilled to get it all done at once. we have to make sure no question that we don't jeopardize the full faith and credit of the united states and pay the nation's bills. we have to make sure we do that not tieing extraneous settled matters like the affordable care act to pay the nation's bills. like i said many times, if we can agree to have the government reopened which the republicans shut down with holding obama care as ransom and agree that we can't jeopardize the full faith and credit of the united states and work towards that separate and apart from dealing with the inevitable kinks that will arise

as obama care is implemented and everyone should have access to a quality affordable health care -- >> you two were posting to me a few minutes ago, you would do a deal in a room together. so come on, marcia, that's the opening game bet from debbie. go back and let's do a deal here. >> i will. i will. what you have to realize is these extraneous matters that are a part of a budget, they are line items in a budget and if you're going to look at a budget at appropriations, at a funding mechanism, you have to say where are we spending that money. >> okay. do a deal. i want you two -- you two live up to your promise. i want to see a deal done. what is a deal between a sensible republican and a sensible democrat, where is the point where you think this could be honorably settled? i'll throw it out. i think we can both agree we haven't -- it doesn't make sense to pass a cr with this -- with

the arbitrary across the board spending cuts included in the sequester, that we need more targeted spending cuts and more precision like in the spending cuts we make. that to me should be a basis for agreement. i talk to republicans and democrats who both agree. it might be harder to agree on spending levels and what we cut and spend more money on but i don't think anybody is happy with the across the board spending cuts in the sequester that we agreed to, by the way, the republican number, even though we oppose it to get past the government being closed. >> marsha, sounds reasonable to me. >> well, in the president's words, those sequester levels would be settled to law and those would be numbers that we would agree to. now what we have to do is look at that ten-year window, or even the one-year window that a

continuing resolution covers and say what is going to transpired in that window? the reason you have to have a discussion about obama care and look at what can possibly be delayed in that program is because it has gone from being an $863 billion program to an estimate of $2.6 trillion. >> that's -- >> no, no, no, those are cbo numbers -- >> no, no, you have to show me on the floor -- >> i will, i will show you. >> that's simply not true. >> i'll show you those numbers because when you're going to look at the cost of these programs and the total cost of what is going to be an -- what will have an impact on the economy, all of that has to be on the table -- >> piers, the laying -- >> the overall -- we have to look at the overall spending measures. >> we do and that's -- >> and borrowing --

[ overlapping speakers ] >> -- we have to say, where can we get these reductions. >> let me jump in here for a moment. >> we have to say, okay -- >> okay, look. all right. >> where can we get these reductions? >> calling an end to this. as i suspected despite the view, it's ended with eye rolling, come on, marsha. this is why it's so difficult. even reasonable people like yourselves seem completely implacable. that the it for tonight. we'll talk again tomorrow and see if we can make any more headway. ladies, thank you both very much. >> thanks, piers. a story that will shock you. a couple lost in the wilderness after being shutout a national park. their story of life or death is a direct result of this shutdown and my panel of experts react to this story and so much more. ♪ norfolk southern what's your function? ♪

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this is the credit worthiness of the united states that we're talking about. this is our word. this is our good name. this is real. >> president obama today warning americans what is at steak if the debt crisis is not resolved. a couple kicked out of a national park, lost for days and barely survived. kathy and her husband ricky lee joining me via skype.

welcome to both of you. kathy, you're speaking from your hospital bed. how are you physically? >> i'm a lot better than i was. i'll tell you that. i finally, i think, in what you call a functions human being again to some degree. it's going to be a difficult recovery, though. >> now, just to let viewers know what happened here, you and your husband, you're from arkansas. you were vacations in big bend park, national park in texas last week but you were thrown out of the park when the federal government shutdown and then an official at the national park suggested you relocate to the state park to continue your vacation and that, ricky, i think is where the trouble started. tell me what happened next. >> well, we picked a trail we

thought was a loop and we were under the impression that it wasn't that hard, you know, to do and we took off for a day hike and packed enough water and food for one day and we got about a little over half way and we were up of water, out of food and it was getting dark, and so we just -- we had to pull up and sleep -- we just laid down right on the ground there and went to sleep and, i said we'll get up the next morning and finish it out. we'll be okay. the next morning we got up and took off, and it was just too -- too much up and downs and then it got hot without water, we just couldn't make it and had to stop short and just left us out there and, you know, we traveled right before dark, a little bit further and actually found some water in a stream bed underneath the rock and we drank both of us drank quite a bit of it -- >> ricky, if i could jump in, do us a favor, push the camera slightly away from you both so

we can see you. it's a little too close i'm being told. >> how about that. >> that's terrific. so kathy, this is when it got serious for you because, you know, you were hiking and in the wrong park, it wasn't where you normally go. you go to the national park every year. because of the shutdown, suddenly it's getting dangerous for you, your severely sun burnt, severely dehydrated and this huge search, volunteers in getting you safe and airlifting you to safety. where you were, you felt, i believe you were on the verge of dying here? >> i did not think i was going to make it, and that's been a hard thing to say several times now, knowing that my kids are hearing that, they have heard it today already and hearing it

again probably right now, but, you know, we do know desert hiking. it's something we enjoy doing. we spent many years doing it at big bend at the national park and it's just been a little more differently at the state end of things than the national end and what we thought would translate into, you know, just switching gears and, you know, switching up camps didn't quite turn out that way for us and so -- >> see, here is a question for you, kathy -- >> yes. >> this is not one of the big scandals of this shutdown by any means. >> no. >> you obviously went hiking at a different park and were unfortunate. what it is, it's one of those stories, which i suspect is being replicated all over america, people being disadvantaged by the shutdown, had to change their plans and in your case, that change of plan taking you out of the comfort zone into somewhere you really didn't understand or know very well nearly cost you your life. how do you feel about the washington politicians, which

are causing all this disruption all over your country leading in your case to a potentially very serious situation? >> well, i think that what really got to me, you know, first we see people every year, the same people every year who were having to shut down -- very reluctantly something they truly believe in. those of us who go at the same time every year, we all kind of know each other who know who is who. the other thing that honestly concerned me knowing this was in play once we did go missing was that the best facility, you know, in terms of aircraft and search and rescue teams that belongs to that national park and i knew here we were out there missing and while the state park might turn to the big bend national park as it has in the past, those resources probably were not going to be there. >> right. >> like they would have. >> extra worry. >> it weighed heavily on my mind. >> i'm so pleased it turned out okay and thank you to you and

ricky and good luck with your recovery and i appreciate you coming on the show. >> thank you. thank you -- if washington doesn't open up, there will be more stories like that. i'll talk to a war veteran, forced out of their home they legally own because of the shutdown. when i come back i'll get answers from my power panel of experts on what this means and how we stop it. but they didn't fit. customer's not happy, i'm not happy. sales go down, i'm not happy. merch comes back, i'm not happy. use ups. they make returns easy. unhappy customer becomes happy customer. then, repeat customer. easy returns, i'm happy. repeat customers, i'm happy. sales go up, i'm happy. i ordered another pair. i'm happy. (both) i'm happy. i'm happy. happy. happy. happy. happy. happy happy. i love logistics.

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they were given less than 24 hours to pack and get out. they will join us soon. we'll talk about the hellish situation and we'll talk to them. before we get there we'll talk to josh baron and kelly an conway republican strategist. welcome to this all-star panel tonight. let's cut to the quick here, how will this end david because people are getting fed up with it? >> people are getting fed up with it and my suspicion is the pressure coming is the answer to the question of how it will end temporarily. the remarkable thing so far, piers, the markets have been relatively calm. >> but it's the calm before the storm, isn't it? >> or the calm that comes from believing that there is no storm coming. >> or the calm that comes from knowing washington is so

paralyzed this is one stupid game that will get resolved and then the question is -- >> that's right. if there is no signals from the market saying this has got to go get resolved, in an odd way it harder to resolve -- >> right, because it's the market pressure that would create a sense of crisis. >> good point. wall street is not reacting to warren buffett's fear, the nuclear explosion would go off with the debt ceiling not being dealt with. but that's because everyone knows it will be dealt with. >> washington isn't panicking. but we seen a spike in short-term interest rates. they have been at basically zero and have gone up to .25 point. and that reflects that people on wells with thinks there's going to be a little disruption in the treasury market. so i think wall street is concerned but they have the appropriate low level of concern. i think washington will get a

deal like before and we seen an opening like that today. the president said in his remarks, if they pass a short-term debt limit increase and open the government, he'll negotiate on the budget and you had dana bash reporting a that senior republican in the house said they might pass that four to six -- >> even dana wasn't sure -- >> right. >> and i'll come to you here, even she wasn't sure if this four to six-week extension, if you'd like of debt ceiling talk about involve the reopening of the government. >> there is no certainty to believe that would be the case. we hope that is the case. i believe the stock market, what we will see is a negative downturn very soon and as time moves on and the house gets more and more cluttered with this, i think you will see a drop. >> kelly ann, i have a certain sympathy when president obama said it's like somebody firebombing your house, stealing your possessions and taking your care and saying negotiate. >> that's a ridiculous analogy --

>> is it really? we've lost it's law move on. >> piers, if you're going to try to fund the government, you have to fund the big whoppers that are sucking up the money. >> that was a big whopper. >> obama care is a big whopper -- >> no john boehner's statement was a big whopper. >> hold on, to answer your question, the terms like hostage and extortion and threats, the fact is the president said he's open to a short-term deal. you may have heard short but i heard deal. the white knight, hero that came in to save the government in the shout down and debt ceiling or as he's seen as the guy -- with the name calling i can't believe the potty mouth harry reid has. he does no favors for this president. he calls john boehner a liar, coward, puppet of ted cruz. >> any -- >> this is not how --

>> any negatives. >> well -- >> [ overlapping speakers ] >> let me go to somebody who would never use any of those terms. why are you in iowa? is this part of a secret plan to run for the white house? >> i'm speaking to a couple of groups in our senate right meeting tomorrow morning. >> okay. look, you're a bruiser around town. we all know that. how do we get this deal done given the president has opened the deal, i'm open for a short-term debt deal, what is that deal likely to be? likely to be? >> we take a deep breath. every president negotiated on debt ceilings. every president negotiated on crs. there is nothing new or exciting here. we had the national parks open during the period of these crisis when carter was the president and they passed a law when clinton had his fight with gingrich to make sure the parks were open. this president is taking a

different approach but can't argue it's unprecedented. his reaction is unprecedented. what he's going to do and what he said today he's finally going to do since the threats haven't worked is sit down and cut a deal. we need to do something to restrain spending more while we also raise the debt to pay the additional money that the president and obama care have put us into. so we need to take a look and decide how do we reform some of this over spending? we now know the new study that roy did out with forbes in manhattan institute, the cost, the average cost of obama care will be 99% higher than what it used to be for young men a year ago and 62% for women. obama care is raising the cost for the individual market, not reducing it. we need to perhaps think about delays things for awhile. >> okay. that's the -- that's the bait and switch that continues to

happen. the conversation is being shifted to a conversation about debt reform, about too much spending. notice they didn't say anything about tax reform today when they brought up the conversation about reducing the deficit. what they want to do is what groover talked about is going back and talking about obama care. the president is doing what anyone would do if the opposition began with the non-starter of we want you to repeal the legislation that started this conversation. >> we'll come back and we got a lot of time with this all-star panel. i want to get into the couple that were thrown out of the home they legally owned in the wake of shutdown. a shocking story. this guy is a korean war hero. i was made to work.

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there have been many shocking stories in is shutdown. this one really got to me. a couple forced out of their nevada home because it sits on federal land. they own the home. they were given less than 24 hours to pack their things and get out. joyce joins me now along with her daughter. i'm outraged on your behalf i got to say because this is a disgusting story. you've been married to ralph for 60 years and lived in this house since the '70s. you've never faced this situation despite 17 other shutdowns. your husband is a veteran of the korean war and having treatment

for cancer, has no cartilage left in his knees. what do you make of this, joyce? >> we had the house since 1979 but never stayed down there except 26 days out of the first 13 years because we had a ranch and were busy and didn't get to go there much. now we've been off and on since then. it's a secondary residence. it's not a permanent home. >> right, but you have never -- >> that's where they like to reside. >> tish, your parents have never been forced out before, though. >> no, uh-uh. >> what do you feel about what happened to your parents? >> i'm very frustrated. i'm very frustrated for the fact there is a displacement. they have obligations out there as members of the homeowners to help out with different things and dad feels obligated, we help him out with a lot of that.

his cancer treatment was all in las vegas this last bit and that's allowed them to have quick access to the hospitals and so forth because they had that residence. it -- it's just frustrating. >> you're taking this with incredible good spirit. i'm appalled what happened to you. there is your mother with you there. your dad is pretty frail and has gone through this. he served his country in korea and because of squabbling politicians in washington, he's been turfed out of his house. >> yeah, and he's very discouraged by it. notice he's not on any camera interview. >> why is that? >> he lost his trust in everything at this point. he doesn't trust anyone. he feels like anything that he's worked and done everything in his hard-earned life has been

stripped from him. he has no access to the home. i mean, now he has access to go in there during the day to water his flowers or go down and make sure the water pump is working correctly, but they took that in the drop of a hat. >> where are they living at the moment, your parents? >> my parents have relocated into town. like i've said, it is a secondary residence. they have a fifth wheel. they are staying in the fifth wheel and have a granddaughter getting married on the 19th of month and they want to be close by to join in with all of that. >> the housing that we have other than the house out at the point has steps up to the porch or up to the -- even the fifth wheel has high steps and ralph can't hardly get up the steps because he's -- his knees are so bad -- >> right. >> that he pulls himself up by holding onto the doors and i'm afraid he's going to pull the walls down. >> we take this good --

>> we're doing fine, we are. >> we're not -- we're frustrated but there is so many people in a lot worse shape than we are. >> oh, yeah. >> and we have each other and we fall back. we're a very close family unit and fall back on our others, our own because we can trust our own -- >> it's remarkably stoic of you and you're great americans for reacting that way. i appreciate you both for joining me. appreciate you both. send my very best to ralph, as well, an american war hero. let me turn to my panel. another story, there is nothing particularly terrible about this, unlike cancer patients i talk to fear of not living to the end of the week, when you hear of a korean war hero, suffered from cancer, can barely walk, thrown out of the home he legally owns because these

idiots in washington. i mean, why should i not be enraged on their behalf? >> there are, as you say, many stories like this and almost all of them have odd did of being on federal lands. there was the oddity last week 400,000 furloughed workers equally as frustrated they weren't going through the issues your guests were and a reinterpretation of the law and suddenly half of washington is back at work. i was in -- >> which is ridiculous. >> it is. and anything happened in congress in the interim, no? i was in -- in one federal building yesterday where it had been mostly empty a week ago and it was mostly full yesterday. so what i think this does is sort of under cut the question of how much of this is real or not and you're seeing that to some degree in the arguments about whether you're really running into a debt limit deadline and on october 17th. >> kelly, you kept playing into that all day long on every network on a cycle, eventually the penny would drop with the

guys in washington whose job it is to sort this stuff out. this is having a human toll. >> absolutely. >> it's been completely disrupted and i think in the most unfair manner. >> there are terrible stories like this across the country and terrible stories in the last five years because of the economic policies. let's do an on going reel of small businesses that failed or never got -- never got their start out of the gate, piers, because of the stimulus and tarp and obama care. >> of course, it was never happening under george bush who led to one of the great crashes in american financial history. it was -- >> piers -- >> it's not a partisan comment, listen human toll -- >> my point is none of this is partisan. 17 shutdowns since '76, right?

financial crisis under republican and democratic administrations. we've seen this movie a million times. >> and the thing -- >> what -- >> the government is operating -- >> when -- >> people who lose their jobs and property to the government, there is human toll all the time because of government policies, as well. you read all the stories now of employers cutting, reducing hours to 25 a week so they don't have to compile with mandates of obama care and provide the health insurance. >> josh -- >> you got single moms across this country taking two jobs for 20 hours. >> john is literally open mouthed at what he's hearing. >> this is a narrative republicans have made up. you can find stories but when you look at the broad economic data there is no evidence that's a major trend -- >> this close that you and i are, they are shaking because it happened to them. it's real. >> it's not data. when you look at data from the burro of labor statistics -- >> i'm talking about the economy and truth about the economy -- >> talking about people -- >> this number insurance

premiums are doubling for people. this is a non-sense statistic, that compares the cheapest plan that exists today that is a plan that is barely insurance, that has a drastically high premium and you can't get if you have a pre-existing condition. the insurance you get under obama care is different and better than the plan that rye is comparing it to. republicans are afraid obama care is working and premiums are lower than expected -- >> you can't even enroll -- >> one of the worst things about this -- >> it doesn't work. >> the republicans have done i final objectionable, there are parts of obama care -- i can't vote anyway. there are parts of obama care that can be changed or modified are simply unfair, business being delayed for a year and regular joes, all that i think is completely flawed, however, coming into the country with a national health system where

everyone gets free health care, this idea that 11 million americans can get insurance not covered before, this is somehow an outrage. but the republicans target the very people that can make obama care work, the 18 to 35 brigade that are healthy, that need to get in the system to keep the premiums low. they are the primary target you guys need to understand this is evil. bringing 11 million people -- >> wait, two thirds of them voted -- >> i find that repulsive. >> as much as i support universal health care and oppose what the gop is doing, i don't think that's what they are doing, piers -- >> i seen advertising. >> they are implying it. they are trying to stop -- >> that's not true, piers. as much as i would love to agree with you and be right, that's just not true. >> all right -- >> grover, i can hear moaning. is it true or not any republicans have taken any advertising out directly targeting the younger brigade who may be tempted by obama care

and telling them not to do it? >> look, what happens with trying to get the younger people, obama care tries to force younger people into the government program, and the government program is very expensive for younger people. it's particularly worse off than what you had before, and the study i was quoting, you can goo to the website, the manhattan institute and look at your state and compare apples to apples and the cost of the health care that you can buy today, you'll have to buy under obama care is going up almost doubling for men up by 60% for women. that's why they're having a difficult time getting young people and 40-year-olds to buy into this program. it's not a very -- >> republicans -- >> listen, they supported obama -- >> which is why it's a good idea to delay it.

>> call me old fashioned, every single doctor i talked to say it's basically a good idea. >> i need to introduce you to new doctors -- >> we have doctors in congress who say different. >> we'll come back. particularly this interview with kathleen sebelius on the daly show last night. [ male announcer ] ever since daryl got gain with lift & lock, he loves the way his laundry smells. [ sniffs ] [ woman ] uh, honey, isn't that the dog's towel? [ panting, gwling ] [ whimpers ] [ male announcer ] hey. mi towel, su towel.

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the amazing thing -- >> you're doing this because you haven't got the subsidies ready for the business? >> well, they don't -- >> they get subsidies but individuals don't? >> they're in the market already. >> jon stewart taking some shots on kathleen sebelius. i watched this grover norquist, and i could barely believe what i was watching, was like the person in charge of this didn't seem to have a clue about almost

any of it. >> one of the things that obama said when he was running for president, is to have a more transparent government. they're not willing to tell us how many people signed up. it's a known number. why not level with people about simple facts. it may not be the number they want, but sebelius doesn't seem to be on top of what's going on, she could give us accurate numbers on a timely manner in what's happening with obama care. david, it was embarrassing to watch. and nothing against kathleen is a beale yus. met her once. seems a very nice lady. i was squirming watching this. >> there's a fairly simple answer to the questions he was asking particularly about why

they want to get young people to sign up and the individual mandate. but what strikes me, piers, about this entire debate is two sort of fundamental facts about washington. number one, if you have a delay of four to six weeks, it doesn't really solve anything. it puts us right back into this in six weeks. so that will be forgotten in history. the second is that everybody knows what issues you have to go address if you are going to actually affect the budget deficit, which is what the republicans say in this case and some democrats say they really want to go do. there are three big bins out here. there's defense, which has been cut some by sequester and could be cut again if you were actually doing this in a honed and refined way and the entitlement programs, social security and medicare. no one wants to go touch those for all the obvious reasons. but sort of the willy sutton role. that's why he robbed banks. that's where the money was. the money is not really in obama

care anymore than it was in the iraq and afghanistan wars. >> let me remind everybody in america, most of the money, your debt, is owned by china. who came out today and said, wow, this is really worrying. america may not pay us back the money they owe us. >> that wasn't what they're really worried about. >> in "new york times" a brilliant piece about this whole thing. remember this. if the debt ceiling is not dealt with, the first people who will get paid are the chinese bond holders, right? the last people who will get paid will be the americans on social security. i mean, this is a farce, isn't it? >> well, yeah, and it's embarrassing. but i think we're not at a point yet where it's really impacting the willingness of people to buy our bonds. think we've been able to explain to the chinese and japanese that they will get paid that has us laughing at us but not panicking.

that said, i am hopeful a four to six-week delay will be either a grand bargain or everybody will pretend it is. it's been so embarrassing for everybody in washington there will be motivation to get something. [ overlapping speakers ] >> what's really embarrassing once the debt ceiling is raised and speaker boehner has never once said that the october 17th deadline isn't real that he's going to allow the nation to default. not once has he hinted it. all this conflation of obama care with the shutdown people are going to say i thought that would cure obama care. there'll still be glitches. and the hhs secretary doesn't know what's going on. >> we will still be talking about this until i literally go gray-haired. all-star panel thank you very much. grover, best of luck to your presidential campaign. good to see you. thank you very much. we'll be right back. should be for cookies, not your investment strategy. if you believe in the sheer brilliance of a simple explanation. [ male announcer ] join the nearly 7 million investors who think like you do: face time and think time make a difference. join us. [ male announcer ] at edward jones, it's how we make sense of investing.

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that's all for us tonight. ac 360 later starts right now. good evening, everyone. welcome to "ac 360 later." a lot on the table tonight to talk about with our panel. breaking news an off duty nypd detective arrested in connection with that attack on an suv driver by a group of bikers. also is it time for the washington redskins to dump their name? we begin with our other breaking news on day eight of the government shutdown there's a possible glimmer of hope for the other looming mess, the debt ceiling. with me on the panel tonight cnn international correspondent and christiane amanpour, jeffrey toobi