it's just that i believe the reason they did what they did is if you're a medicaid enrollee, do you want to do a shopping experience only to know stlthatu have to go on medicaid. crossfire starts right now. tonight, on crossfire, we've heard all about what's gone wrong. can we trust the team that rolled out obama care's website to fix its problems now? >> we're not interested in monday morning quarterbacking. on the left, van jones. on the right, s.e. cup. in the crossfire, obama care damage control, what's the best prescription? tonight on crossfire. welcome to crossfire.

i'm s.e. cupp on the right. >> do you remember the fail whale? i do. do you remember that? back during twitter, the early days of twitter, and this would come up, it's called the fail whale and admit that once again the site was down. used to hate that thing. but you know what? nobody talks about it anymore. nobody remembers it, because twitter works. they fixed the site. it's the same thing with the obama care web site. truly it is embarrassing to have the fail whale hanging over the white house, but it will not be there forever. and when it's gone, millions of people are going to have much needed health care. and that's something that everybody's going to remember. >> well, the problem isn't just with the website. older sick people who desperately want health insurance will log on 25 times. they will call a toll frenum and sit and wait on a hotline. they will meet with navigators

in person. but the young, healthy people required to make obama care work will not. they require immediacy. they require brilliance. and they're not going to tolerate a series of glitches for very long. in the crossfire tonight, obama care supporter and virginia congressman, and one of its critics, nick gillespie. tom, let me start with you. let me tell you why i think the web issue isn't a glitch but a crisis. obama care needs millennials to make the affordable care act work. and to make it work, obama needs them to do something they have no never done before, which is buy health insurance. but he's essentially handed them a tablet and a chisel to make this happen. i talked to my friend who is a millennial who writes about

millennials today. and here's what he had to say. if the administration wants the aca to win millennials, i'd suggest a few trips to menlo park, mountain view and coup cupertino to see how they do it. >> millennials are savvy consumers. if they don't hear about the product, it's not going to matter how quick the website is. millennials are very smart. they're saving a lot of money, getting better coverage than they were. and that's what's ultimately going to work. it's the product that's going to drive this, not the process for a few days. >> first of all, i agree with you. >> you're speechless. >> that was brilliant what he said. >> if i can jump in, i think

you're selling a pile of beans here. you know, wait, they're getting more coverage for less money. that doesn't compute. because part of the whole plan, the economic basis of obama care is that you're making young people who are healthy pay more than they would otherwise because you're mandating more benefits, and you're capping the ratio between what old, sick people have to pay and young healthy people. there's no way that younger people are paying less for health care than they were before. and if they are, then we're really screwed. because the whole economic basis of the plan is up in smoke. >> respond to that, and then i want to tell you something. >> one of the things is that a lot of young people aren't going into a job where they're fully employed. going out on the open market is tough. going into an exchange like this means that you're sharing risk across a broad range. it's also true that a lot of young people didn't think to get

insurance which seems like a good idea until you get sick. >> but now it makes more sense not to get insurance because you can wait until an accident and sign up when you need at that. >> we've got some breaking news, which i think people are going to be excited about. chief medical correspondent, dr. sanjay gupta got the chance to talk with the one woman who everybody in america wants to talk to, kathleen sebelius. that is obama's secretary of health and human services. he is joining us from the white house with all the details. what did you learn? >> reporter: as no surprise, probably, van, but they're very concerned here. she certainly talked about how concerned they've been over the last couple days and how they really wished this had gone better. no surprise there. there were a couple of surprises though. she said that the president himself really wasn't made aware of any problems leading up to october 1st, the launch date at all. he really had no idea that there were problems. really, according to secretary

sebelius, it was really into it that he started to be more aware of it, despite the fact that the system had been tested just a few days before october first and crashed, even with just a few hundred users. she said we're going back now and bringing in our a-team to help address this. and i said well, a-team, why didn't you bring in the a-team in the first place in this is one of the biggest domestic policy initiatives for the country. she said yeah, good point, we probably should have done that. but we're doing it now. so concerned but also quick to remind that this is a larger mission. she kept repeating that and also quick to remind that you've got six months, to the end of march, basically to sign up for this. >> what about the calls for her resignation? you've heard a lot of those from republicans. did you ask her about that? >> i did, at least three times,

s.e. she didn't answer it clearly. she said that is something, but here's the mission, let me tell you about the patients who are getting health care and despite the fact that there's been a lot of these problems it's going to continue to get better and we are doing the right thing. that's what you keep hearing over and over again. and i also heard about this idea, that look, have you lost some confidence with people. are they going to sign up? or are they just going to take the penalty? and how much of an impact does that make on the whole system? and again, she says that she believes that people are going to sign up. she talked about her own son, 29 year old son who's going to sign up. so she is painting a very optimistic picture in bringing in the cavalry. >> we want to thank you very

much. this is a big deal, an exclusive interview. our viewers can watch the entire interview 8:00 eastern on cnn's anderson cooper 360. thank you so much, doctor. now let's get back to our discussion here. >> yeah, tom, i want to go back to this young person issue. because the whole thing hinges on this, right? so this generation of millennials that are required to get obama care working so you can support the older sick people who need obama care, this generation trusts google's brand and facebook's mark zuckerberg to solve problems for you. they don't trust the department of human services and the irs. why should millennials be patient, when to van's point, i think van can agree, that they can probably offer up solutions that are just as innovative if not more innovative than what the government's offering up.

>> one of the major things is to have 50 states compete on this. moist of the governors have close e chosen not to do this. that's part of what we're supposed to do with this is using states as laboratories. you also sigh ultimately, the young people again, whether it's a week from today or a month from now, if there's a good plan, they're going to go and sign up for it. that doesn't mean think have to be patient and sit on the phone for three months. it means when the good product is there they're going to grab-it. i think they have learned why preventive care is a good thing. >> decades of tradition of young people not getting health insurance. >> but let's not move off the factor that -- you talk about kathleen sebelius. she should have tendered her

resignation. this is the biggest gd deal since truman, if the president didn't know a couple days before how bad it was, what is he, hitler in the bunker? >> that is objectionable. >> almost as objectable as the hitler reference. >> he's like nixon. is that better? but if he's not getting a flow of information, it means that the leadership problem here starts at the top and goes all the way through people like sebelius. >> it's your legislation. >> fine, fine. we can jump up and down about this. met me get to my question. i want to ask you a question. obviously, this is bad. the president says it's bad. >> he offered no -- >> he gave a whole press conference about it yesterday. but here's what's interesting to me. you say it's abysmal. you have people screaming and

yelling, and this thing, obama care, is more popular now than it was two weeks ago. more popular than it was before -- let's look at some of these numbers. the numbers are unbelievable. this thing is moving up in popularity, despite the shutdown, despite ted cruz, despite the glitchy rollout. how do you explain the fact that despite the mistakes this program is more popular than before. >> the thing is that it's so not particularly popular. it's not to spite ted cruz, it's because of that. and i think what the republicans, i'm not a republican. i'm not a partisan, you know, political partisan of any stripe, but what happened by conflating issues about government funding and the debt limit with obama care, i think the republicans really crossed wires. and suddenly, something was revealed about the republicans, which was pretty odious, which is suddenly they're talking about our government shutdown debt limit. pass the keystone pipeline.

repeal obama care, et cetera. there are responsible, the most responsible action over the roll out of obama care in the recent weeks was the state of oregon which is doing its own health care exchange. they tested their program and they said hey, it's not working. so they're not going online until it's red eye. . >> it's the whole law that needs to be fixed. you'll be surprised who agrees with me. of providing a free world-class education for anyone, anywhere. if you look at a khan academy video, they cover everything from basic arithmetic to calculus, trigonometry, finance.

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welcome back in to crossfire tonight. i was looking at the official white house schedule, and i didn't see damage control listed anywhere, but that's all we've been seeing today. the administration's wheeled out public officials like kathleen sebelius and resurrected officials like jeff zients to clean up the obama care mess and save face. the affordable kar ablable care supposed to be affordable. but premiums are up 250% for an 80 year old. what happens when obama care isn't in fact affordable? >> i think the credibility of anything from the heritage foundation is not at peak. we've seen premiums go down

dramatically. we've seen people enroll. >> so premiums aren't going up in states? >> they're forgetting how bad the status quo was before, how many people couldn't get insurance. we're seeing premiums skyrocket. it's not like premiums weren't going up before obama care happened. so you see a whole set of options here that people, for people who were hitting caps. we know the tragic cases of families that were going bankrupt, a small business owner in maryland who's saving $5,000 per employee now because of the obama care -- >> are you denying that premiums are going up in many cases? >> they're going up and they're going down. >> but they're not supposed to be going up ever. >> are you saying that premiums are going up or what people are paying after the subsidy. >> the heritage numbers don't include the subsidies. >> what i would argue -- >> so nobody's going to pay these. >> no, the taxpayer will.

>> people will go to the emergency room. >> it's a much more effective -- >> medical, emergency rooms is 2% of all health care spending. that's a big red herring in this. the important thing to say is, the status quo is terrible. the status quo is terrible because the health care industry is one of the most regulated, and it's regulated at the behest of major insurers. there's a reason why you can't sell health insurance policies across state lines. it's not because we wouldn't benefit from it. it's because big insurers don't want at that. >> so would libertarians work with liberals to do things like, these big firms are exempt from anti-trust laws. >> no. >> go ahead. >> what i'm going to say is, if we had an actual free market in health care, we wouldn't need and tie-trust laws.

you wouldn't have two or three insurerers for each market. >> the regulations came because of the abuses. >> no, then why did the abuses keep getting worse? >> there is one place in america -- i want to get your response. there's actually one place where things are getting better, and that place is kentucky. we've got some great sound from the governor of kentucky. >> we are signing up people at roughly 1,000 a day. it's a great rate and a great success so far. it was also the best economic decision. because i had outside experts telling me that it's going to create about 17,000 new jobs over the next eight years and infuse money into our economy. so it's a win/win for us. >> but the governor didn't say what kind of people were signing up. he didn't say if they were young

people or sick, unhealthy people. >> fair enough. but the question i want to hear answered, where people are working to the, this thing is beginning to work. that is the democratic governor in kentucky. you have a republican governor in ohio who is beginning to sing the praises. subsidies.

in some the health care prime unwould be more than paying the fine. isn't that the problem? mechanically, you guys are hoping for something that may or may not happen. >> if you're saying you want to create a system where you can't find a single individual whose premiums go up, but to van's point, where people are trying to solve the problem and make it easier for families to afford health care, then it is working. and if we had 50 governors right now of both parties, if it were more than two party whose were putting their best ideas on the table you would be competing over who's saving more. if they could be competing right now -- >> what if the best idea is to say no? you were talking about

federalism before. part of federalism is saying no, we're not going to do that. we're going to set a minimum requirements for insurance at a different level than you would. you know, the california versus texas, there we have natural experiments. he offer different levels of taxes, different levels of regulation. >> you know, we don't want to race to the bottom on certain things. >> it's not a race to the bottom. >> but there is a lot of room for republican governors. a lot of the rural states, which are quite red are the ones that stand to benefit from let's not pretend that the

medicaid expansion is a good thing. medicaid is one of the most inefficient and awful programs. if you know anybody who has been on medicaid, you would do everything you could to change that program. at its best, this is study coming out of oregon. that everybody points to. after two years they found there was no clear health outcome benefit to being on medicaid. >> let's move to one more talking point that we hear a lot. and i would be very interested in hearing your view. we've heard over and over again, because of this, you'll have this part timization of everybody. and luckily, the number actually came out today. and i want to read you these numbers. it turns out over the past 12 months we've created 1.6 million full time joks. we've lost 287,000 part time joks. what does that do to the argument that obama care is this wrecking ball? >> i don't think it is as much whether or not it is destroying full time jobs are now become part-time jobs.

i think you have to look at i. what did spending five years fighting over during a bad economy, everybody agrees it was a bad economy. and everybody i think probably agrees on many of the causes of that. you inject something like obama care as well as dodd frank and a bunch of other regulatory transformative scheme. no reporter is like i don't know what i'm spending on health care. i'm going on hire a bunch of people. >> not to mention the bureaucracy that creates waste, corruption, fraud, privacy issues. this is opening the door for more opportunities for all of those scary things that have a lot of people lacking faith in government right now. >> we're going to talk about all this. i want to you stay here. next we'll cease fire to see if there is anything the two of can you agree upon. it sometimes hams. and we want you at home to get involved. to weigh in on the fireback questions. should health and human services secretary sebelius resign over

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we are back with tom and nick. now, let's call a cease fire and see if there's anything you two can agree on. this is going to be very interesting. you go first. >> i think we probably agree to trust the consumer. and ultimately if the health care product is something that consumers, marchly young people

want to buy, they know how to go on a website, compare different plans. if they like what they see they're going to bite. if it is no good they won't buy it. >> i have a lot of young people and their ability. especially young savvy people to look around. >> yay, we found something. the system hinges on young people and we have to hope they like the product. okay. thank you both. to go faceback or twitter to weigh in on our fireback question. 58% of you say yes. 42% say no. and there will be an exclusive interview at 8:00 eastern on cnn. >> the debate will continue online. as well as on facebook and on twitter.

join us tomorrow for another edition of "crossfire." erin burnett starts right now. obama care under siege. >> the way they operate is very significant. >> a child's voice calling for help. >> can you please send police out here? a kid with a gun. >> new details about the school shooting in nevada. and apple's big gamble. the first look at the new ipad. let's go "outfront." good evening. i'm erin burnett. outfront, marco rubio takes on the president of the united states. today republican senator said he will introduce a bill to p