wrestling mat is asking a judge to approve a coroner's inquest into his death. they believe kendrick johnson was the victim of foul play, not an accident, as investigators ruled. and in florida the two mistakenly released convicted murderers are back in the orange county jail. joseph jenkins and charles walker were recaptured saturday night. bogus court papers led to their release. a state official says they now know of five other times where convict forged documents to shave time off their sentences. unbelievable. sanjay? >> gary, thanks. that does it for this edition of 360. thanks for watching. "erin burnett outfront" starts "erin burnett outfront" starts now. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com obama care under siege. >> problems inherent in the way the web site operates are very significant. a child's voice calling for help. >> can you please send police out here? there's a kid with a gun. >> new details about the shoot shooting in nevada. and apple's big gamble. a first look at the new ipad.

let's go "outfront." good evening. i'm erin burnett. marco rubio takes on the president of the united states. today the republican senator said he's going to introduce a bull to push back obama care. right now the deadline to sign up or face penalties is march 31st. but rubio says it is not ready for primetime. >> the problems inherent in the way this web site operates are very significant. and i think it's going to be very difficult to reverse this in a number of weeks. >> the white house not budging, but it could be facing even more pressure as the real cost of obama care is now coming to light. casey wian with this outfront investigation. >> reporter: the state of colorado wants everyone to know that even these bros can afford obama care in a series of adds, everyday folks are shown with a tag line "thanks obama care."

kentucky's governor says 1,000 people a day are signing up for his state's version of the affordable care act. >> i'll guarantee you about a year from now they're going to look back at these critics, including a lot of senators and representatives, and they're going to say you misled us because hey this works. i've got affordable health care. >> reporter: people are pre-existing medical conditions or incomes that qualify for government subsidies clearly benefit from obama care. but many others are paying more. a detail that some in congress say the administration didn't make clear to the public as part of the program's failed web site launch. republicans on the congressional committee on oversight and government reform sent this letter monday to the obama administration demanding answers. it reads in part "we believe that the political decision to mask the sticker shock of obama care to the american people prevented contractors from using universally send best practices in the development and rollout of this massive federal government i.t. project. it's easy to see why chaos would

likely ensue". >> the affordable care act's web site which now totals about $600 million is not performing if best system and practices had been delivered. >> reporter: the white house says the republicans are twisting the facts. however the administration has made changes to the web site in the past two days that now allow consumers to type in their county and state and get estimated price quotes as well as information about subsidies, something they couldn't do before without filling out an application. >> there are problems and there were problems that need to be addressed. and we're improving the experience for consumers every day. >> reporter: the concern remains the price tag. the web site alone about $300 million. the overall cost, $1.4 trillion over ten years. the goal is for all that spending to lead ultimately to lower health care costs and reduced budget deficits. but that depends on the performance of obama care. and erin, so far it has been a really rough start. >> thanks so much to casey. our second story out front,

health and human services secretary kathleen sibelius under increasing pressure from every direction. and she has just sat down for her first and only interview since the obama care rollout fiasco with sanjay gupta. she talked about the president's awareness of the problems with the web site. >> the president did say that he was angry about this. do you know when he first knew that there was a problem? >> well, i think it became clear fairly early on, the first couple of days. >> so not before that, though. not before october 1st? there was no concern at that point from the white house or at hhs? >> i think that we talked about having testing going forward, and if we had an ideal situation and could have built a product in a five-year period of time we probably would have taken five year years. >> sanjay, she's saying the president wasn't even aware of the problems when this was about

to roll out. how did she defend herself? >> well, there was a lot of things that you've heard before. first of all i think she's very concerned. there's no question. i've talked to her many times over the years. this is probably as concerned as i've seen her. but she still often talks about the overall mission being what's driving everybody within hhs and even the white house. i asked specifically, given all the concerns before the rollout, why did they continue to go forward. and did the president know about these problems before the rollout. and she said the president did not know, he was not brought into the loop ahead of october 1st. so pretty significant thing there. because there were significant concerns from the insurance companies, even within people in hhs. and there had been a test of the system with just a few hundred people and it crashed. so erin, there was a lot of concern. she also said we're now going to bring in the a team to help move this thing forward, to which i obviously asked, why now are you bringing in the a team? for something of this magnitude, why wasn't the a team there

before october 1st, way before october 1st, to make sure things went smoothly? she said yeah, good point but this is what we're doing now. so that's a little bit of the tenn ten tenor. >> admitting they didn't have the a team. and also sounds like admitting that it crashed and failed and they just -- i mean did they just launch it with a hope and a prayer that won't happen again? i mean, that's outrageous. >> i asked why didn't you delay? given something of this magnitude, why not delay? she said well, millions of people are waiting for health care insurance, which is something that you've been hearing for a long time. would it have mattered that much to wait another few weeks or even a month to make sure this thing was perfect. again not a really great answer to that. i also asked something that you were just talking about, erin. this idea that had she offered her resignation to the president, would she consider doing so or had the president asked for it. and the answers to all those

questions were some variation of no. and it said if that came to it then that's not something she wanted to address right now but that she was really talking about the mission moving forward in terms of getting people health care coverage. >> thank you very much, sanjay. i want to bring in our panel now. shawn spicer communications director for the republican national committee and brad woodhouse, former communications director for the democratic national committee. great to have both of you with us. you just heard what sanjay said. kathleen sibelius standing by it saying the program is good. yes, we know we have problems but we're bringing in the a team now which probably got you steaming as to why the a team wasn't already there. but what about her answer that she gave, too? no no no. i'm not going anywhere. haven't offered my resignation. the president hasn't asked for it. take a hike. >> that's extremely concerning that you can botch something this important and this expensive and not even think that i owe it to the american people, i owe it to the taxpayers, frankly i owe it to this administration. maybe they should bring in the a

team. maybe they should bring in people who are qualified to administer and run this program. because that's what we need to. what concerns me right now, erin, this thing has been botched so bad that i'm not sure they know the difference between the a team in terms of the tech people and a team that was on the tv show. because that's how scary it is right now in terms of the bad the rollout's been. let's just look at one quick thing. yesterday the white house brought in 13 people to do their pitch man billy mays activity where they talked about how this thing is to run. they brought in 13 people. the problem is only three of them had actually enrolled in obama care. that's how bad it is. they can't even find 13 people that have actually enrolled. this is going to be health care by the dmv. and they've realized that they are in big big trouble and they need more than the a team. >> now to be fair, some of those people, one of them was a pharmacist. she wouldn't have signed up for it because she's employed by cvs, i believe. her point was some customers have come in and they've been helped. they were trying to not necessarily just have people who would sign up just to make sure

i'm clear, sean. but brad what about sean's point but also casey wian reported. for many people in this country who have insurance, majority of people, a lot of them have insurance through their companies, big companies, they are paying more. i know at our company we've been told directly for the past two years you're paying more because of obama care. that is something that might surprise and concern a lot of people and might indicate a problem that runs a little bit deeper than a failed web site. >> well, look, i run an organization. and you know what, we're not paying more. i think there are companies who are seeing premium increases that were going to happen anyway who would like to blame it on obama care. or there are companies who are opposed to the president politically. >> supposed to go down though, brad. >> hold on, sean. who are making changes to their health care plans and blaming it on obama care because they have a political ax to grind. but erin, let me say, so sean clearly just playing politics with this. we've seen report after report after report --

>> you mean robert gibbs. >> we've seen report after report after report about premiums going down in new york, in california. now, they weren't rushing out saying hey that's a great thing. i mean, the rnc and the republicans shut down the government to try to end obama care. is anyone really going to take them as a credible voice on how to fix it? they're happy that it's had problems. they're happy that the web site has glitches. they're rooting for failure. what we need to do is improve it and make it work for millions of people. and that's what's happening. >> sean? >> there's two issues at stake here. one is the management of this program and the execution of it. it troubles me greatly when the answer that the secretary gave sanjay was, no one informed the president. wait a second. this is the number one issue, the number one legislative piece of the president's agenda. and no one tells him that when 200 people get on the site it crashes. that's a problem. if i were the president i would have said, what would it have

taken for you to tell me this? second, the issue of cost isn't just the problem. we're also seeing americans have their hours cut down where many americans who were getting by on 40 hours a week are getting it cut back to 29. >> that is not true. erin, there has been report after report after report -- >> we're making up all these companies. >> there's been report after report after report there's not a bit of data, including the labor department's employment figures for last month. >> real companies and real people. >> that indicate that there's any shift to part-time employment. part-time employment fell, full-time employment increased in this country. and so you can't -- look, this is playing politics. >> we've got a web site for obamacosts.org. >> final word. >> erin, i understand you needed to bring on somebody from both sides. but rnc supported ted cruz's effort to shut the government down to end obama care. they really don't care whether obama care works or it fails. the american people want it to work, though, and it's going to. >> all right, well, i'll leave

it there. thanks very much to both of you. you were a great duo despite the disagreement. still to come, a terrorist suspect in this country has hepatitis c. could taxpayers be responsible for his potential sky-high medical costs? plus a mystery that's captivating the world. the girl found in greece. thousands of leads have been pouring in from around the world. and now they say she might belong to someone in the united states. who is she? and our first look at apple's newest item. thinner, lighter, faster. the ipad air. is it good enough? [ male announcer ] you'll only find advil,

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up a big tab. chris lawrence has how much it will cost and how much taxpayers in the united states pay for terrorists' health care. >> reporter: u.s. come man dose snatched the terrorist off the streets of tripoli. but his capture may come with a huge bill for health care. anasa al libi is accused of bombing attacks in africa in which 200 people were killed. his family says he's got an advanced case of hepatitis c. >> this is a pre-existing condition that al libi brought with him. >> reporter: if he needs a liver transplant it would cost taxpayers up to a quarter of a million dollars. he'd have to take followup medications that could cost more than 50,000 a year for life. and he's only 49 years old. on tuesday, al libi's attorney said he's getting medication to treat the hepc but that he does not have cirrhosis of the liver and doesn't need a transplant. but it's possible his medical

needs could change. >> he has to be given proper health care. that's just a basic obligation that the united states has to its prisoners. >> reporter: and it's just the tip of a health care iceberg. with dozens of suspected terrorists at guantanamo likely to die of old age, if kept at the prison. >> i think that's certainly a likelihood some of those you just can't envision anything else other than detaining them. >> reporter: it costs u.s. taxpayers millions of dollars a year for each detainee there. and as they get older, the price of their medical care is likely to skyrocket. >> one detainee needed heart surgery. the u.s. government had to fly in a cardiac team into guantanemo because they simply didn't have the facilities there. >> reporter: and andrea presile of human rights watch says medical costs make a good argument for moving detainees to federal prisons. >> as expensive as health care may be in the united states, it's a lot cheaper inside the u.s. than at guantanemo. >> reporter: some attorneys for the some of the detainees have

filed emergency motions with courts asking for additional medical care, like additional test, for heart disease or devices to help with breathing. we're likely to see more and more of these additional medical needs as the detainees get older and get all the ailments that come p with old age. erin? >> thank you very much, chris lawrence. may make some people think differently about guantanemo. our fourth story up front is apple. the company released the ipad air. it's not a little thing, it's real, 20% thinner, 30% lighter than the current ipad with the same screen and processing chip in the new phone 5 s. the air hit stores on november 1st. wi-fi only you'll pay 499, 4 g 629. that is no deal. but you don't always need to deal to do well with apple. everyone wants to know if it's a must-have device or just another ipad. richard quest is out front. richard, bottom line, is it worth it?

>> well, the core question is, do you change from something like this? >> yes, you change from that because the case is disgusting. >> this is the old ipad 2, which has served me well. >> yes. >> and am i going to spend extra for something a little bit lighter? it's a pound as opposed to 1.4. it is thinner. it is supposedly a bit faster. but apple no longer has this to themselves. call today triple tablet tuesday. because we got three tablets from three different manufacturers. we got apple's ipad air, we got microsoft with the surface pro 2, and we got nokia with their first lumia tablet. so the game is changing. >> so there's a lot more competition. all right. but let me ask you this, though, when you evaluate the apple versus these other ones, because you have two new iphones out of apple. pacific crest says the iphone 5 s in the u.s. outstripping demand for the iphone 5 c with

all the colors 2 to 1. >> it hasn't really worked and wasn't a very good idea. >> stock this year down 15%. when you look at the stock market this year it's up more than 20%. is this enough to turn it around or have they got more competition? >> you have got to get away from thinking that it's a device. you need to start thinking about echo systems. do you want to be an iso, do you want to be an android, or do you want to be in windows 8 or some version of the windows phone system. because that is the future. those people who have this won't necessarily have an android phone. if they've got an android phone you're looking puzzled here. you're looking dismayed. >> these things are all -- i'm not a tech savvy maiden. >> right. but the future is very much in which system of operating systems do you want to be part of. what apple is doing at the moment is still premium, it's still at the upper end, but it by no means has the game to itself. >> okay. so translation, then, the way i

understand it you're saying even if it's successful they're going to lose some market share. >> no question. >> you've got more things coming in. in order for the company to grow and stock price to come up they need to come up with something better or different. a new category. that's what they used to be good at. the category you didn't think you needed an then all of a sudden you need it >> yes. but you can't do that every time. the big disappointment of today's ipad air is it's just incremental. it is not quantum leap. now, your viewers will certainly be wanting to know which ones they prefer because it will be dependent upon which echo system you are in. android, windows or apple. ios. >> well, thanks, richard. and please replace the case. still to come, a mystery child found living with a couple in greece. no one knows where she came from but thousands of leads are pouring in from around the world. are we closer tonight to finding out who she is? hotel. m, i adore the pr anna, your hotels have wondrous waffle bars.

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. who does the mystery girl in greece belong to? thousands of leads have been pouring in from around the world after this little girl, blond-haired, blue-eyed, was discovered in a greek roma community last week. now, roma as you probably are more familiar with referred to as gypsies. officials are investigating as many as 10 missing children cases in connection with the abducted girl. one of them is lisa irwin who vanished from her home in kansas city two years ago. a new photo was released of what irwin might look like today, and her parents believe that their daughter could be the young girl in greece. dna has been taken from the little girl. it will be take taken from these families as well. hopefully an answer is coming soon. "crossfire" starts now.

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tonight on "crossfire" we've heard about all about what's gone wrong. can we trust the team that rolled out obama care web site to fix the problems now? >> we're not interested in

monday morning quarterbacking. >> on the left van jones, on the right s.e. cupp. obama care damage control. what's the best prescription? tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire." i'm s.e. cupp on the right. >> and i'm van jones on the left. in the crossfire tonight, obama care supporter tom pirielo and one of its opponents, nick gillespie. do you remember the fail whale? i do. do you remember back? back during the early days of twitter you would go on the site and this is what would come up. it's called the fail whale. it meant the site once again was down. i used to hate that thing. but you know what? nobody talks about it anymore. nobody even remembers it. because twitter works. they fixed the site. it's the same thing with the obama care web site. now true, it is embarrassing to

have the fail whale hanging over the white house. but it will not be there forever. and when it's gone, millions of people are going to have much-needed health care. and that's something that everybody is going to remember. >> well van, the problem isn't just with the web site. older, sick people who desperately want health insurance will log on 25 times. they will call a toll-free number and sit and wait on a hotline. they will meet with navigators in person. but the young healthy people required to make obama care work will not. they require immediacy. they demand competence if not brilliance in their innerer connectivity online. >> we'll get there. >> and they're not going to tolerate a series of glitches for very long. in the crossfire tonight, obama care supporter and virginia congressman tom pirielo and one of its critics, reason magazine editor in chief, nick gillespie. tom, let me start with you. let me tell you why i think the web issue isn't a glitch but a

crisis. obama care needs millenials to make the affordable care act work. and to make it work, obama needs them to do something they have never done before, which is buy health insurance. but he's essentially handed them a tablet and a chisle to sort of make this happen. i talked to my friend david bernstein who is a millennial who writes about them today. here's what he had to say. "if the administration wants the aca to win millennials, i suggest a few trips to men low park, mountain view and coup cupertino to see how they do it". with this rollout hasn't it undermined the very age group they need? >> if they hear about their friend saving money or getting a plan that's got a lot more coverage than before it's going to work. if they don't hear about that product it's not going to matter how quick web site is.

millennials are very smart consumers. right now what they're hearing through their friends through the state exchanges, saving a lot of money, getting better coverage. that's going to work. ultimately millennials know word of mouth. that's how the social media works. it's the product not the rollout. >> i agree 100%. so brilliant what he said. captivated. >> if i can jump in, i think you're selling a pile of beans here. because wait, they're getting more coverage for less money. that doesn't compute. because part of the whole plan, the economic basis of obama care is that you're making young people who are healthy pay more than they would otherwise because you're mandating more benefits and you're capping the ratio between what old sick people get, have to pay, and young healthy people. there's no way that younger people are paying less for health care than they were before. and if they are, then we're really screwed because the whole economic basis of the plan is up in smoke.

>> respond to that and i want to tell you something you'll be excited about. >> one of the things a lot of young people right now aren't going into one job where they're fully employed. a lot of people are independent contractors or putting jobs together or in between jobs and going out there on the open market is tough. going into an exchange like this means that you're sharing risk across a broad range. it's also true a lot of young people didn't think to get insurance, which seems like a great idea until you get sick or wrapped around the tree. >> now it makes more sense not to get insurance, right? you can wait until an accident and then sign up when you need it. >> we have some breaking news. chief medical correspondent dr. sanjay gupta who is cnn doctor and america's doctor got the chance to talk to the one woman who everybody in america wants to talk to, kathleen sibelius. that is obama's secretary of health and human services. here is a part of what she said. >> the president has broadly outlined a lot of the benefits of the affordable care act in a speech yesterday. i want to talk about this web

site and ask specifically, what is wrong with it? >> well, i think what we know is that we had an enormous volume. and the volume both caused some issues to show up and expose' digs digs some additional issues. some people can't get through, other people are getting through every day the we're not at all satisfied with workings of the web site. we want it to be smooth an easy and let consumers compare plans and choose a plan that's good for themselves and their family. that's what i'm focused on. >> so this was a volume problem? >> well, i think volume was extremely high, which is good news. we've had nearly 20 million people visit the web site in the first three weeks, and that shows i think the pent-up interest that people have in affordable, available health coverage. but i would say volume caused some problems but it also exposed some additional problems. and so we're working hard to make sure that people can go on the site, find the plans they

want, make good decisions for themselves and their families. >> according to congressional investigators just weeks before the launch, after two-thirds of insurers had some concerns, specific conference that the web site would not be ready. just days before the launch a test was conducted and the web site crashed with just a few hundred users at that time. how was the decision made to still go forward? >> well, sanjay, there are people in this country who have waited decades for affordable health coverage for themselves and their families. i see them all over the country. you probably saw them on your recent bus tour. people who are so eager for this to happen. and what's clear is we have a product. the product really works. we have created a market where there wasn't a market. people have competitive, private plans at affordable prices. they have the advantage if they don't have employer paying a share of their coverage they are going to have some tax help paying a share of their coverage. so waiting is not really an option. people can sign up on the web

site, at the call center, in person. we have people signing up each and every day. we just want to make sure that the web site works smoothly for everybody. >> what degree of confidence did you have on october 1st when you woke up that things were going to go smoothly? >> well, i was optimistic that things would go smoothly. i felt that the day had finally come. i have done this work now for 3 1/2 years implementing this historic law. we've already gotten millions of people affordable coverage. young adults, parents with children with pre-existing conditions who had no options before. now have lots of options. we're going to make sure that people actually can take advantage of this. and what's the good news is that although as the president said yesterday that shopping cart may not be working quite well, the products are on the shelves. we have created a market. we're early in the first quarter in football terms. we have a six-month open

enrollment period. and i am confident that millions of americans at the end of open enrollment, march 31st, will have affordable coverage for the first time in their lives. >> thanks to dr. sanjay gupta. now let's get back to our guests. >> yeah, tom, i want to go back to this young person issue. because the whole thing hinges on this, right? so this generation of millennials that are required to get obama care working so that you can support the older sick people who need obama care, this generation trusts google's sergei bring and facebook's mark zuckerberg to solve problems for you. they don't trust the department of health and human services or the irs. why should millennials be patient when i think to van's point i think van would agree that they can probably offer up solutions that are just as innovative if not more innovative than what the government's offering up? >> well first of all, one of the major components of the bill was to have 50 states compete for good ideas on this. most of the republican governors

have chosen not to do that. but you're seeing a lot of democratic governors in different states get great exchanges out there. hundreds of thousands of people signing up, including many young people. that's part of what we're supposed to do with this that federalists should support is using states as laboratories. you also see ultimately that young people again, whether it's today or a week from now or a month from now, if there's a good plan that they're excited to sign up for they're going to go on and sign up for it. that doesn't mean they have to be patient and sit on the phone for three months. it means when the good product's there they're going to grab it. i think a lot of young people have learned a lot more about why having health insurance is a good thing, why preventative care is a useful thing. >> ignoring decades of tradition of young people not getting health insurance. >> no. but let's not move off the fact here that talk about kathleen sibelius. she should have tendered her resignation. whether or not the president took it. this is the biggest g.d. deal that a liberal administration has put forward since harry truman. what we keep hearing all the time. she screwed it up and if the

president didn't know until a couple of days into the debacle how bad it was? what is he like hitler in the bunker or something? what's going on? that is bizarre and massively objectionable. >> almost as objectionable as the hitler reference. >> let me put it this way. he's like nixon in his last days, okay? is that better? but if he's not getting a flow of information it means that the leadership problem here starts at the top and goes all the way through people like sibelius, they missed half of the statutory deadlines. >> we can jump up and down about this. you know what's interesting to me? let me get to my question. i want to ask you a question. look, obviously this is bad. the president says it's bad. everybody in america says it's bad. >> he offered no -- >> he gave whole press conference about that yesterday. here's what's interesting to me. you say it's abysmal. you have people screaming and yelling. and this thing, obama care, is

more popular now than it was two weeks ago. more popular than it was before -- let's look at some of these numbers. the numbers are unbelievable. this thing is moving up in popularity, despite the shutdown, despite ted cruz, despite the glitchy rollout. how do you explain the fact that despite these mistakes this program is more popular today than it was before? >> and the important thing is that it's still not particularly popular but it is climbing. >> it's above water now. >> not despite ted cruz or despite the shutdown it's because of that. i think what the republicans -- i'm not a republican, i'm not a partisan political partisan of any stripe. but what happened by conflating issues about government funding and the debt limit with obama care, i think the republicans really crossed wires. and suddenly something was revealed about the republicans which was pretty odious, suddenly they're talking about government shutdown debt limit. pass the keystone pipeline. repeal obama care, et cetera.

there are responsible -- the most responsible action over the rollout of obama care in the recent weeks was the state of oregon which is doing its own health care exchange. they tested their program and they said, hey, you know what, it's not working so they're not going on line until it's ready. that's the responsible action. >> it's not just the web site that has problems. i think the whole law needs to be fixed. we'll talk about that next. you'll be surprised who agrees with me. [ male announcer] surprise -- you're having triplets. [ babies crying ] surprise -- your house was built on an ancient burial ground. [ ghosts moaning ] surprise -- your car needs a new transmission. [ coyote howls ] how about no more surprises? now you can get all the online trading tools you need without any surprise fees. ♪ it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade.

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welcome back in the crossfire tonight, tom perielo and nick gillespie. ways looking at the official white house schedule and i didn't see damage control listed anywhere. but that's all we've been seeing today. the administration has wheeled out public officials like kathleen sibelius and resurrected former officials like jeff zines to clean up the obama care mess and save face. tom, the affordable care act is supposed to be affordable. but premiums in your state, for example, of virginia are up 250% for a 27-year-old and 178% for a family of four according to the heritage foundation. what happens when obama care

isn't in fact affordable? >> well, i think the credibility of anything from the heritage foundation is not at its peak right now for the last few weeks. we're seeing premiums go down dramatically in states. we're seeing peoplen role. we're seeing stories come in. that's the thing. when people talk about obama care -- >> premiums aren't going up in states. >> they're forgetting how bad the status quo was before. how many people couldn't get insurance. we're seeing premiums skyrocket. not like premiums weren't going up before obama care happened. people who were in the working poor and not qualifying in medicaid. so you see a whole set of options here for people who were hitting caps we know the kind of tragic cases of families that were going bankrupt. a small business owner in maryland who's saving $5,000 per employee now because of the own care. >> but are you denying premiums are going up in many cases? >> ones going up, ones going down. >> they're not supposed to go up ever. >> are you saying that premiums aren't going up or what people are are paying after the

subsidy? >> the problem with the heritage numbers is the heritage numbers don't include the subsidies. >> what i would argue thoughts problem with this whole -- >> nobody's going to pay these. >> the problem with -- well no, the taxpayer will. >> which we will do anyway when people go to the emergency room. this is a much more efficient way to do it. >> medical -- go to emergency rooms is 2% of all health care spending. it's not a huge amount. that's a big red herring in this. the important thing is to say the problem with health care that's always been, it's true. status quo is terrible because the health care industry is one of the most regulated. it's regulated at the behest of major insurers. there's a reason why you can't sell health insurance policies across state lines. it's not because we wouldn't benefit from it it's because big insurers don't want it. >> would libertarians work with liberals to do right now these big insurance companies are exempt from anti-trust laws. so they actually have a big loophole.

would you work with us to make sure -- you wouldn't do that. go ahead. >> what i'm going to say is that if we had an actual free market in health care you wouldn't need anti-trust laws because you wouldn't have -- in every state one, two or three insurers cover all of the market because they have cartels carved out with help from state legislatures and federal regulators. to get rid of that -- >> the regulations came because of the abuses not the other way around. >> why do the abuses keep getting worse? >> i'm going to do something now. i want to get your response and yours as well. there's actually one place where things are getting better, that place is kentucky. we've got great sound from the governor of kentucky. >> we are signing up people at roughly 1,000 a day. it's a great rate and a great success so far. it was also the best economic decision. because i had outside experts telling me that it's going to create about 17,000 new jobs over the next eight years and

infuse about $15 billion into our economy. so it's a win-win for us. >> but the governor there didn't say what kind of people are signing up. he didn't say if they were young people or sick, unhealthy people. >> fair enough. but i think the question i want to hear answered, where people are working together this thing is beginning to work. that is a democratic governor in kentucky. you've got a republican governor in ohio who's beginning to sing the praises. jan brewer says if you repeal obama care you're going to bankrupt our state. so in other words, while we're doing this abstract ideological argument in washington, d.c., out in the states the democrats are making this thing work. why are you opposed to that? >> you're going to go on the record saying like where jan brewer leads i will follow? >> on that point i will. >> what happened about a decade ago, arizona expanded medicaid involuntarily in the way that obama care is calling for all across the country. that's what's bankrupting arizona. that's why they want a bailout from national taxpayers.

>> you want poor people not to be able to see doctors? >> the last time i checked, poor people can eat at mcdonald's and it's a pretty good meal. the reason they can't get health care at good prices is because it is so heavily regulated. and like all heavily regulated industries, like wall street, railroads, tv, it's always done at the behest of the big players. >> tom even with those subsidies just to return back to the mechanics of this, even with the subsidies, in some cases they are not going to completely fill the gap in some cases the health care premium will still be more than paying the fine. isn't that the problem? mechanically you guys are hoping for something that may or may not happen. >> if you're saying that you want to create a system where you can't find a single individual whose premiums go up obviously that's not the way it works. to van's point where people are actually trying to solve the problem and make it easier for working families to afford health care and young people to afford health care then it is working. if we had 50 governors right now of both pairrties who were puttg their best ideas on the table

you would be competing over who's saving families more. instead you see the same approach from republicans, we have no ideas except what to be against. they could be competing right now. >> what if the best idea is to say no? you were talking about federalism. part of federalism is the right of exit. we're not going to do that. we're going to set minimum requirements for insurance at a different level than you would, california versus texas. there we have natural experiments. they offer different level of services, different levels of taxes, different levels of regulation. let people choose. don't pretend that obama care which forces this top down mandate all across the board everywhere in the country and taxes people if that's federalism? no. >> we don't want to race to the bottom on certain things. but there is a lot of room for competition and flexibility. a lot of room for republican governors for taking a creative approach on this. a few of them are, partly the irony here is a lot of the most rural states which are quite red are the ones that stand to

benefit the most from many of these things, including the medicaid expansion but also the exchanges. and we're not seeing that. that defaults to a federal solution. >> by the way, let's not pretend that the medicaid expansion is a good thing. medicaid is one of the most inefficient and awful programs. if you know anybody who has been on medicaid you would do everything you could to change that program. at its best -- this is the study coming out of oregon that everybody points to. after two years they found there was no clear health outcome benefit to being on medicaid. >> let's move on to one more talking point that we hear a lot. actually very interested in hearing your view on this. we've heard over and over again that because of this you're going to have this past-timization of everybody. and luckily the numbers came out today. it turns that over the past 12 months we've created 1.6 million full-time jobs. actually lost 287,000 part-time jobs. what does that do to the

argument that obama care is this wrecking ball for full-time employment? >> i don't think that the issue is as much whether or not it's destroying all full-time jobs are now becoming part-time jobs. i think you have to look at it more what did spending five years fighting over during a bad economy, everybody agrees it was a bad economy and everybody i think probably agrees on many of the causes of that. you inject something like obama care as well as dodd frank and a bunch of other major regulatory transformative schemes on things what you did there was slow down any possible recovery. because no employer is going to be like i don't know what i'm spending on health care next year so i'm going to hire a bunch of people? >> not to mention the bureaucracy that creates waste, corruption, fraud, privacy issues. >> the insurance companies? >> no. this is opening the door for more opportunities for all of those scary things that have a lot of people lacking faith in government right now. >> good enough. we're going to talk about all this when we get back. want you guys to stay here. next we're going to ceasefire to see if there's anything the two of you can agree on.

it sometimes happens. we also want you at home to get involved to weigh in on today's fire back question. here's the question. should health and human services secretary kathleen sibelius resign over the obama care web site problems? tweet yes or no using #crossfire. we will have the results after our break. at od, whatever business you're in, that's the business we're in

with premium service like one of the best on-time delivery records and a low claims ratio, we do whatever it takes to make your business our business. od. helping the world keep promises. help the gulf when we made recover and learn the gulf, bp from what happened so we could be a better, safer energy company. i can tell you - safety is at the heart of everything we do. we've added cutting-edge technology, like a new deepwater well cap and a state-of-the-art monitoring center, where experts watch over all drilling activity twenty-four-seven. and we're sharing what we've learned, so we can all produce energy more safely. our commitment has never been stronger.

is . we are back with tom perielo and nick gillespie. let's call a ceasefire and see if there's anything you two can agree on. you go first. >> i think we probably agree to trust the consumer. ultimately if the health care product is something that consumers particularly young people want to buy, they know how to go on a web site, compare different plans. if they like it they'll buy it. if it's not good they won't buy it. >> i have faith in young people to route around b.s. in their lives. so i agree. >> yea yea, we found something. the system hinges on young people. we got to hope they like the product. thanks to tom perielo and nick gillespie. our fireback question, should

secretary sibelius resign over obama care web site problems. 58% say y 42% say yes, 58% say no. >> from the left i'm van jones. >> from the right i'm s.e. cupp. if i may with your reaction to this whole obamacare business in a particular, kathleen sebelius, a business decision. should the president sticks with someone who has presided over