congress forged documents to shave time off sentences. unbelievable. >> thanks so much. good evening. i'm erin burnett. outfront, marco rubio takes on the president of the united states. today republican senator said he will introduce a bill to push back obama care.

right now the deadline to sign up or else face penalties is march 31st. but rubio says it is not ready for prime time. >> the problems inherent in the way this website operates are very significant. and i think it will be very difficult to reverse this in a number of weeks. >> the white house not budging. but it could be facing even more pressure as the real cost of obama care is now coming to light. casey? >> the state of colorado wants everyone to know that even these bros can afford obama care. everyday folks are shown with the tag line, thanks obama care. kentucky's governor said 1,000 people a day are signing up for his version of the affordable care act. >> i'll guarantee you a year from now they'll look back at these critics, including the senators and representatives and say you misled us. because hey, this works. i've got affordable health care. >> people with preexisting medical conditions clearly benefit from obama care.

but many others are paying more. a detail that some in congress said the administration didn't make clear to the public as part of the program's failed website launch. republicans on the congressional committee on oversight and government reform single this letter monday to the obama administration demandingnesses a. it reads in part, we believe the political decision to mask the sticker shock of obama care to the american people prevend contractors from using universally accepted best practices in the development and rollout of this massive government federal i.t. project. it is easy to see why chaos would ensue. >> it probably costs twice as much and not performing than it should if best practices and efficient system had been delivered. >> the white house says republicans are twisting the facts. however the administration has made changes to the website. in the past two days that now allow consumers to type in their county and state and guess

estimated price quotes as well as information about six dis, something they couldn't do before without filling out an application. >> there are problems that need to be addressed. we're improving the experience every day. >> the concern remains the price tag. the webb alone, about $300 million. the overall cost? $1.4 trillion over ten years. the goal is for all that spending to lead ultimately to lower health care costs and reduced budget deficits. that dpenlds on the performance of obama care. and so far it has been a really rough start. >> a really rough start. thank you very much. now our second story outfront. kathleen sebelius. the health and human services secretary is under increasing pressure. there is even a hash tag on twitter about firing her. but she fighting back.

>> there was a lot of thing that you've heard before. first, i think she is very concerned. no question. i've talk to her many times over the years. he was not brought boo the loom ahead of october 1st. this is as concerned as i've seen her. but she often talks about the overall mission being what's driving everybody and even the white house i asked specifically, given all the concerns before the rollout.

why did they continue to go forward? and did the president know about these problems before the rollout? and she said the president did not know. he was not brought boo the loom ahead of october 1st. there were significant concerns, even people in hhs and there had been a test of the system with a few hundred people. and it crashed. she said we're going to bring in the a-team to help move this thing forward. to which i obviously asked, why now are you bringing in the a-team? something of this magnitude. why wasn't it there before october 1st. to make sure things went smoothly. she said well, yeah, good point. this is what we're doing now. so that's a little bit of it. it kept coming back to we'll get millions of people health care insurance and it is continuing to drive people here. >> admitting that they didn't have the a-team and also, it

sounds like, just admitting that it crashed and failed and they just, did they launch with it a hope and a prayer? that won't happen again? >> i asked that. why did not you delay? given something of this magnitude, why did not you delay? well, millions of people have been waiting for health insurance. would it have mat period much to wait even a week or a month? and not a really great answer to that. i also asked something you were talking about. this idea that had she offered her resignation to the president works she consider doing so or had the president asked for it? and the answers to all those questions were some variation of no. and it said, if that came to it, then that's not something she wanted to address right now. but that she was really talking about the mission moving forward in terms of getting people health care coverage. >> thank you very much. and of course as emingd with, sanjay will have that full interview. you'll be able to see his exclusive conversation. i want to bring in our panel.

shawn spicer, communications director for the republican national committee. and brad woodhouse for the democratic national committee. great to have both of you with us. let me start with you. you heard what he said. kathleen sebelius standing by it saying yes, it looks good. we know we have problems but we're bringing in the a-team. probably got you steaming as to why the a-team wasn't already there. but also she said no, no, no, i haven't offered my resignation. the president hasn't asked for it. take a hike. >> that's extremely concerning that you can botch something this important and this expensive and not even think that i owe it to the american people. i owe it to the taxpayers and frankly to this administration. maybe they should bring in the a-team. and maybe they should bring in people who are qualified to administer and run this program. what concerns me right now is this thing has been botched so bad that i'm not sure they know the difference between the a-team in the tech people and the a-team on the tv show. that's how scary it is in material of the rollouts. let's look at one quick thing. the white house brought in 13

people to do the pitch man, billy mays activity where they talked about how this is run themselves run in 13 people. the problem is only three had actually enrolled in obama care. that's how bad it is themselves can't even find 13 people that have actually enrolled. this is going to be health care by the dmv. and they realized that they are in big, big trouble and they need more than the a-team. >> to be fair, some of those people, one of them was a pharmacist and she wouldn't have signed up for it because she was employed by cvs. she said her point was they were customers. so just to make sure i'm clear. but what about shawn's point but also casey reporting, for many people in this country who have insurance. the majority of people. a lot of them have insurance through big companies. they are paying more. i know at our company we've all been told directly, you're paying more because of obama care. that is something that might surprise and concern a lot of people.

and might indicate a problem that runs a little deeper than a failed webb. >> i run an organization. counseling what? we're not paying more. i think there are companies who are seeing premium increases that were going to happen any way. who would like to blame it on obama care or company that are opposed to the president politically. who are making -- hold on. who are making changes to their health care plans and blaming it on obama care because they have a political axe to grinld. let me say, shawn clearly playing politics with this. we've seen report after report after report. >> you mean robert gibbs. >> report after report after report about premiums going down in new york, in california. they weren't rushing out saying that's a great thing. i mean, the rnc and republicans shut down the government to try to enobama care. is anyone really going to take them as credible choice?

they're happy the website has glitches. they're rooting for failure. what we need to do is improve it and make it work for millions of people. that's what's happening. >> there's two issues at stake. one is the management of this program. the execution of it. it troubles me greatly when the answer that the secretary gave sanjay was no, one informed the president. wait a second. this is the number one issue, the number one legislative piece of the president's agenda. and no one tells him that when 200 people get on the site, it crashes. that's a problem. if i were the president, i would have said what would it have taken for to you tell me this? second the issue of cost isn't just the problem. we're also seeing americans have their hours cut down. . americans were get bigg on 40 hours a week are getting cut back to 29. >> that is not true. >> you're making up all these companies. >> there has been report after report that there is not a bit

of data including the labor department's employment figures for last month. >> real company and real people. >> that indicate that there is any shift to part time employment. part time employment fell. full time employment increased in this country. >> final word. >> i understand that you needed to bring on somebody from both sides. test cruz's effort to enobama care. they really don't care whether obama care works or fails. the american people want to it work. >> you were a great duo december fate disagreement. still to come, a terrorist suspect in this country has hepatitis c. could taxpayers be responsible for his potential sky high medical costs? plus a mystery that's cap 58thing the world. the girl found in greece. thousands pouring in from around the world and now they're saying she might belong to someone in the united states.

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put it on the taxpayer's tab. new details emerging about the health, he is being tried in new york. he is here right now. for his suspected role in the bombings. he suffers from hepatitis c. his family said he needs a liver transplant.

his lawyer said that mine be true but his lawyer says his trial will be prolonged and that could make it necessary. chris lawrence is out front with what it would cost and how much taxpayers in the united states pay for terrorists' health care. >> u.s. commandos snatched the suspected terrorist off the streets of trimly. but his camden you are may come with a huge bill for health care. he is in u.s. custody accused of planning the bombings of two american embassies in africa. attacks in which more than 200 people were killed. >> his family says he has an advanced case of hepatitis c. >> this is a preexisting condition that he brought with him. >> if he needs a liver tragic, it would cost taxpayers up to $250,000. his medications could cost more than $50,000 a area for life and he is only 49 years old. on tuesday his attorney said he

is getting medication to treat the hep c. he does not have cirrhosis of the liver and doesn't need a tran. >> he has to be given proper health care. that's a basic obligation the united states has to its prisoners. >> it is just the tim of a health care iceberg. with dozens of suspected terrorists at guantanamo bay likely to die of old age, if kept at the prison. >> i think that is a likelihood. some of those, you cannot envision anything else other than detaining them. >> it costs u.s. taxpayers millions a year for each detainee there. and as they get older, the price of their medical care is likely to skyrocket. >> one detainee needed heart surgery. the u.s. government had to fly in a cardiac team into guantanamo because they didn't have the facilities. >> and andrea, a human rights watch says medical costs make a good argument for moving detainees to federal prison.

>> as expensive as health care may be in the united states, it is a lot cheaper in the u.s. than at guantanamo. >> and some of them have filed emergency motions with courts asking for additional medical care like additional tests for heart disease or devices to help with breathing. we're likely to see more and more of these additional medical needs as the detainees get older and get all the ailment that's come with old age. >> thank you very much. we make some people think differently about guantanamo. the money and power of apple. apple trouds the new ipad today. air. it is not just a little thing, you know, a fancy little ahh. it is real. 20% thinner, 30% lighter than the current ipad. with the same screen and the processing chim. it hits stores november 1st. wi-fi only. it is no deal but you know what?

you don't always need a deal. everyone wants to know if it is a must have device or just another ipad. richard quest is the host of quest means business and he is "outfront." the bottom line, is it worth it? >> the question is do you change from something like this? >> yes. you change from that because you need a new case or something. >> this is the old ipad 2. it has served me well. and am i got go spend extra for something a little bit lighter? a pound as opposed to 1.4. it is thinner. supposedly a bit faster. but apple no longer has this to themselves. called today, triple tablet tuesday. we got three tablets from three different manufacturers. we got apple's ipad air. we got microsoft with the surface pro two. and we got nokia with their first lumia tablet. so the game is changing. >> so there is a lot more competition. let me ask you this.

when you evaluate the apple versus these other ones, you have two new iphones, you talk about it. pacific crest says the iphone 5 s in the u.s., outstripping the one with the colors. >> it hasn't really worked and was not ga idea. >> stock this year down 15%. when you look at the stock market, it is up more than 20%. is this enough to turn it around? now they have more competition. >> you have to get away from the idea of thinking it is a device. you need to start thinking about echo systems do you mean want to be an ios? an android? or do you want to be in wind owes 8 or some versions of the windows phone sterm? that is the future. those people who have this won't necessarily have an android phone. if they have an android phone, you're looking puzzled and dismayed. >> these thing, are i'm not a tech savvy --

>> right. but the future is very much in which system of operating system do you want to be part of? what an sl doing at the moment is still premium. by no means does it have the game to itself. >> translation, you say even if it is successful. they're going on lose the market share. more thing coming in. >> in order for the company to grow and the stock price to go up, they need to come up with something better or something different. a new category. the big disappointment is that it is incremental. it is not quantum leap. now, your viewers will be wanting to know which ones they prefer. it will be dependent upon which echo system you are in. android, windows or apple. >> on that note we will ask for your tweets. we'll see what richard can pull

together. thank you. good to see you. and please get a new cover. still to come, a mystery child found living with a couple in greece. no one knows where she came from. it is the international mystery. thousands of leads pouring in from around the world. with premium service like one of the best on-time delivery records and a low claims ratio, we do whatever it takes to make your business our business. od. helping the world keep promises.

the question is are we going to find out who she is and is she american? thousands of leads have been pouring in from around the world after this little girl, blond, blue eyed, was discovered in a greek jips community last week? they're called the roma. historically referred to as gypsies. officials are investigating 10 missing children. including lisa irwin. you may remember her. we covered her on this program two years ago shelf vanished from her home in kansas city and george howell is outfront.

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tonight on "crossfire" we've heard about all about what's gone wrong. can we trust the team that rolled out obama care web site to fix the problems now? >> we're not interested in monday morning quarterbacking. >> on the left van jones, on the right s.e. cupp. obama care damage control. what's the best prescription? tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire." i'm s.e. cupp on the right. >> and i'm van jones on the left. in the crossfire tonight, obama care supporter tom pirielo and one of its opponents, nick gillespie. do you remember the fail whale? i do. do you remember back? back during the early days of twitter you would go on the site and this is what would come up. it's called the fail whale. it meant the site once again was down. i used to hate that thing. but you know what? nobody talks about it anymore. nobody even remembers it. because twitter works. they fixed the site.

it's the same thing with the obama care web site. now true, it is embarrassing to have the fail whale hanging over the white house. but it will not be there forever. and when it's gone, millions of people are going to have much-needed health care. and that's something that everybody is going to remember. >> well van, the problem isn't just with the web site. older, sick people who desperately want health insurance will log on 25 times. they will call a toll-free number and sit and wait on a hotline. they will meet with navigators in person. but the young healthy people required to make obama care work will not. they require immediacy. they demand competence if not brilliance in their innerer connectivity online. >> we'll get there. >> and they're not going to tolerate a series of glitches for very long. in the crossfire tonight, obama care supporter and virginia congressman tom pirielo and one of its critics, reason magazine editor in chief, nick gillespie. tom, let me start with you. let me tell you why i think the web issue isn't a glitch but a crisis.

obama care needs millenials to make the affordable care act work. and to make it work, obama needs them to do something they have never done before, which is buy health insurance. but he's essentially handed them a tablet and a chisle to sort of make this happen. i talked to my friend david bernstein who is a millennial who writes about them today. here's what he had to say. "if the administration wants the aca to win millennials, i suggest a few trips to men low park, mountain view and cupertino to see how they do it". with this rollout hasn't it undermined the very age group they need? >> if they hear about their friend saving money or getting a plan that's got a lot more coverage than before it's going to work. if they don't hear about that product it's not going to matter how quick web site is. millennials are very smart consumers. right now what they're hearing

through their friends through the state exchanges, saving a lot of money, getting better coverage. that's going to work. ultimately millennials know word of mouth. that's how the social media works. it's the product not the rollout. >> i agree 100%. so brilliant what he said. captivated. >> if i can jump in, i think you're selling a pile of beans here. because wait, they're getting more coverage for less money. that doesn't compute. because part of the whole plan, the economic basis of obama care is that you're making young people who are healthy pay more than they would otherwise because you're mandating more benefits and you're capping the ratio between what old sick people get, have to pay, and young healthy people. there's no way that younger people are paying less for health care than they were before. and if they are, then we're really screwed because the whole economic basis of the plan is up in smoke. >> respond to that and i want to

tell you something you'll be excited about. >> one of the things a lot of young people right now aren't going into one job where they're fully employed. a lot of people are independent contractors or putting jobs together or in between jobs and going out there on the open market is tough. going into an exchange like this means that you're sharing risk across a broad range. it's also true a lot of young people didn't think to get insurance, which seems like a great idea until you get sick or wrapped around the tree. >> now it makes more sense not to get insurance, right? you can wait until an accident and then sign up when you need it. >> we have some breaking news. chief medical correspondent dr. sanjay gupta who is cnn doctor and america's doctor got the chance to talk to the one woman who everybody in america wants to talk to, kathleen sibelius. that is obama's secretary of health and human services. here is a part of what she said. >> the president has broadly outlined a lot of the benefits of the affordable care act in a speech yesterday. i want to talk about this web site and ask specifically, what

is wrong with it? >> well, i think what we know is that we had an enormous volume. and the volume both caused some issues to show up and expose' some additional issues. some people can't get through, other people are getting through every day the we're not at all satisfied with workings of the web site. we want it to be smooth an easy and let consumers compare plans and choose a plan that's good for themselves and their family. that's what i'm focused on. >> so this was a volume problem? >> well, i think volume was extremely high, which is good news. we've had nearly 20 million people visit the web site in the first three weeks, and that shows i think the pent-up interest that people have in affordable, available health coverage. but i would say volume caused some problems but it also exposed some additional problems. and so we're working hard to make sure that people can go on the site, find the plans they want, make good decisions for

themselves and their families. >> according to congressional investigators just weeks before the launch, after two-thirds of insurers had some concerns, specific conference that the web site would not be ready. just days before the launch a test was conducted and the web site crashed with just a few hundred users at that time. how was the decision made to still go forward? >> well, sanjay, there are people in this country who have waited decades for affordable health coverage for themselves and their families. i see them all over the country. you probably saw them on your recent bus tour. people who are so eager for this to happen. and what's clear is we have a product. the product really works. we have created a market where there wasn't a market. people have competitive, private plans at affordable prices. they have the advantage if they don't have employer paying a share of their coverage they are going to have some tax help paying a share of their coverage. so waiting is not really an option. people can sign up on the web site, at the call center, in

person. we have people signing up each and every day. we just want to make sure that the web site works smoothly for everybody. >> what degree of confidence did you have on october 1st when you woke up that things were going to go smoothly? >> well, i was optimistic that things would go smoothly. i felt that the day had finally come. i have done this work now for 3 1/2 years implementing this historic law. we've already gotten millions of people affordable coverage. young adults, parents with children with pre-existing conditions who had no options before. now have lots of options. we're going to make sure that people actually can take advantage of this. and what's the good news is that although as the president said yesterday that shopping cart may not be working quite well, the products are on the shelves. we have created a market. we're early in the first quarter in football terms. we have a six-month open enrollment period.

and i am confident that millions of americans at the end of open enrollment, march 31st, will have affordable coverage for the first time in their lives. >> thanks to dr. sanjay gupta. now let's get back to our guests. >> yeah, tom, i want to go back to this young person issue. because the whole thing hinges on this, right? so this generation of millennials that are required to get obama care working so that you can support the older sick people who need obama care, this generation trusts google's sergei bring and facebook's mark zuckerberg to solve problems for you. they don't trust the department of health and human services or the irs. why should millennials be patient when i think to van's point i think van would agree that they can probably offer up solutions that are just as innovative if not more innovative than what the government's offering up? >> well first of all, one of the major components of the bill was to have 50 states compete for good ideas on this. most of the republican governors have chosen not to do that.

but you're seeing a lot of democratic governors in different states get great exchanges out there. hundreds of thousands of people signing up, including many young people. that's part of what we're supposed to do with this that federalists should support is using states as laboratories. you also see ultimately that young people again, whether it's today or a week from now or a month from now, if there's a good plan that they're excited to sign up for they're going to go on and sign up for it. that doesn't mean they have to be patient and sit on the phone for three months. it means when the good product's there they're going to grab it. i think a lot of young people have learned a lot more about why having health insurance is a good thing, why preventative care is a useful thing. >> ignoring decades of tradition of young people not getting health insurance. >> no. but let's not move off the fact here that talk about kathleen sibelius. she should have tendered her resignation. whether or not the president took it. this is the biggest g.d. deal that a liberal administration has put forward since harry truman. what we keep hearing all the time. she screwed it up and if the president didn't know until a couple of days into the debacle

how bad it was? what is he like hitler in the bunker or something? what's going on? that is bizarre and massively objectionable. >> almost as objectionable as the hitler reference. >> let me put it this way. he's like nixon in his last days, okay? is that better? but if he's not getting a flow of information it means that the leadership problem here starts at the top and goes all the way through people like sibelius, they missed half of the statutory deadlines. >> we can jump up and down about this. you know what's interesting to me? let me get to my question. i want to ask you a question. look, obviously this is bad. the president says it's bad. everybody in america says it's bad. >> he offered no -- >> he gave whole press conference about that yesterday. here's what's interesting to me. you say it's abysmal. you have people screaming and yelling. and this thing, obama care, is more popular now than it was two weeks ago.

more popular than it was before -- let's look at some of these numbers. the numbers are unbelievable. this thing is moving up in popularity, despite the shutdown, despite ted cruz, despite the glitchy rollout. how do you explain the fact that despite these mistakes this program is more popular today than it was before? >> and the important thing is that it's still not particularly popular but it is climbing. >> it's above water now. >> not despite ted cruz or despite the shutdown it's because of that. i think what the republicans -- i'm not a republican, i'm not a partisan political partisan of any stripe. but what happened by conflating issues about government funding and the debt limit with obama care, i think the republicans really crossed wires. and suddenly something was revealed about the republicans which was pretty odious, suddenly they're talking about government shutdown debt limit. pass the keystone pipeline. repeal obama care, et cetera. there are responsible -- the

most responsible action over the rollout of obama care in the recent weeks was the state of oregon which is doing its own health care exchange. they tested their program and they said, hey, you know what, it's not working so they're not going on line until it's ready. that's the responsible action. >> it's not just the web site that has problems. i think the whole law needs to be fixed. we'll talk about that next. you'll be surprised who agrees with me. the most free research reports, customizable charts, powerful screening tools, and guaranteed 1-second trades. and at the center of it all is a surprisingly low price -- just $7.95. in fact, fidelity gives you lower trade commissions than schwab, td ameritrade, and etrade. i'm monica santiago of fidelity investments, and low fees and commissions are another reason serious investors are choosing fidelity. now get 200 free trades when you open an account.

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for atrust bufferin, the only non-steroidal anti-inflammatory pain reliever formulated with special buffers so it's gentler to your stomach. welcome back in the crossfire tonight, tom perielo and nick gillespie. ways looking at the official white house schedule and i didn't see damage control listed anywhere. but that's all we've been seeing today. the administration has wheeled out public officials like kathleen sibelius and resurrected former officials like jeff zines to clean up the obama care mess and save face. tom, the affordable care act is supposed to be affordable. but premiums in your state, for example, of virginia are up 250% for a 27-year-old and 178% for a family of four according to the heritage foundation.

what happens when obama care isn't in fact affordable? >> well, i think the credibility of anything from the heritage foundation is not at its peak right now for the last few weeks. we're seeing premiums go down dramatically in states. we're seeing peoplen role. we're seeing stories come in. that's the thing. when people talk about obama care -- >> premiums aren't going up in states. >> they're forgetting how bad the status quo was before. how many people couldn't get insurance. we're seeing premiums skyrocket. not like premiums weren't going up before obama care happened. people who were in the working poor and not qualifying in medicaid. so you see a whole set of options here for people who were hitting caps we know the kind of tragic cases of families that were going bankrupt. a small business owner in maryland who's saving $5,000 per employee now because of the own care. >> but are you denying premiums are going up in many cases? >> ones going up, ones going down. >> they're not supposed to go up ever. >> are you saying that premiums

aren't going up or what people are are paying after the subsidy? >> the problem with the heritage numbers is the heritage numbers don't include the subsidies. >> what i would argue thoughts problem with this whole -- >> nobody's going to pay these. >> the problem with -- well no, the taxpayer will. >> which we will do anyway when people go to the emergency room. this is a much more efficient way to do it. >> medical -- go to emergency rooms is 2% of all health care spending. it's not a huge amount. that's a big red herring in this. the important thing is to say the problem with health care that's always been, it's true. status quo is terrible because the health care industry is one of the most regulated. it's regulated at the behest of major insurers. there's a reason why you can't sell health insurance policies across state lines. it's not because we wouldn't benefit from it it's because big insurers don't want it. >> would libertarians work with liberals to do right now these big insurance companies are exempt from anti-trust laws.

so they actually have a big loophole. would you work with us to make sure -- you wouldn't do that. go ahead. >> what i'm going to say is that if we had an actual free market in health care you wouldn't need anti-trust laws because you wouldn't have -- in every state one, two or three insurers cover all of the market because they have cartels carved out with help from state legislatures and federal regulators. to get rid of that -- >> the regulations came because of the abuses not the other way around. >> why do the abuses keep getting worse? >> i'm going to do something now. i want to get your response and yours as well. there's actually one place where things are getting better, that place is kentucky. we've got great sound from the governor of kentucky. >> we are signing up people at roughly 1,000 a day. it's a great rate and a great success so far. it was also the best economic decision. because i had outside experts telling me that it's going to

create about 17,000 new jobs over the next eight years and infuse about $15 billion into our economy. so it's a win-win for us. >> but the governor there didn't say what kind of people are signing up. he didn't say if they were young people or sick, unhealthy people. >> fair enough. but i think the question i want to hear answered, where people are working together this thing is beginning to work. that is a democratic governor in kentucky. you've got a republican governor in ohio who's beginning to sing the praises. jan brewer says if you repeal obama care you're going to bankrupt our state. so in other words, while we're doing this abstract ideological argument in washington, d.c., out in the states the democrats are making this thing work. why are you opposed to that? >> you're going to go on the record saying like where jan brewer leads i will follow? >> on that point i will. >> what happened about a decade ago, arizona expanded medicaid involuntarily in the way that obama care is calling for all across the country. that's what's bankrupting arizona. that's why they want a bailout

from national taxpayers. >> you want poor people not to be able to see doctors? >> the last time i checked, poor people can eat at mcdonald's and it's a pretty good meal. the reason they can't get health care at good prices is because it is so heavily regulated. and like all heavily regulated industries, like wall street, railroads, tv, it's always done at the behest of the big players. >> tom even with those subsidies just to return back to the mechanics of this, even with the subsidies, in some cases they are not going to completely fill the gap in some cases the health care premium will still be more than paying the fine. isn't that the problem? mechanically you guys are hoping for something that may or may not happen. >> if you're saying that you want to create a system where you can't find a single individual whose premiums go up obviously that's not the way it works. to van's point where people are actually trying to solve the problem and make it easier for working families to afford health care and young people to afford health care then it is working. if we had 50 governors right now of both parties who were putting their best ideas on the table

you would be competing over who's saving families more. instead you see the same approach from republicans, we have no ideas except what to be against. they could be competing right now. >> what if the best idea is to say no? you were talking about federalism. part of federalism is the right of exit. we're not going to do that. we're going to set minimum requirements for insurance at a different level than you would, california versus texas. there we have natural experiments. they offer different level of services, different levels of taxes, different levels of regulation. let people choose. don't pretend that obama care which forces this top down mandate all across the board everywhere in the country and taxes people if that's federalism? no. >> we don't want to race to the bottom on certain things. but there is a lot of room for competition and flexibility. a lot of room for republican governors for taking a creative approach on this. a few of them are, partly the irony here is a lot of the most

rural states which are quite red are the ones that stand to benefit the most from many of these things, including the medicaid expansion but also the exchanges. and we're not seeing that. that defaults to a federal solution. >> by the way, let's not pretend that the medicaid expansion is a good thing. medicaid is one of the most inefficient and awful programs. if you know anybody who has been on medicaid you would do everything you could to change that program. at its best -- this is the study coming out of oregon that everybody points to. after two years they found there was no clear health outcome benefit to being on medicaid. >> let's move on to one more talking point that we hear a lot. actually very interested in hearing your view on this. we've heard over and over again that because of this you're going to have this past-timization of everybody. and luckily the numbers came out today. it turns that over the past 12 months we've created 1.6 million full-time jobs. actually lost 287,000 part-time jobs.

what does that do to the argument that obama care is this wrecking ball for full-time employment? >> i don't think that the issue is as much whether or not it's destroying all full-time jobs are now becoming part-time jobs. i think you have to look at it more what did spending five years fighting over during a bad economy, everybody agrees it was a bad economy and everybody i think probably agrees on many of the causes of that. you inject something like obama care as well as dodd frank and a bunch of other major regulatory transformative schemes on things what you did there was slow down any possible recovery. because no employer is going to be like i don't know what i'm spending on health care next year so i'm going to hire a bunch of people? >> not to mention the bureaucracy that creates waste, corruption, fraud, privacy issues. >> the insurance companies? >> no. this is opening the door for more opportunities for all of those scary things that have a lot of people lacking faith in government right now. >> good enough. we're going to talk about all this when we get back. want you guys to stay here. next we're going to ceasefire to

see if there's anything the two of you can agree on. it sometimes happens. we also want you at home to get involved to weigh in on today's fire back question. here's the question. should health and human services secretary kathleen sibelius resign over the obama care web site problems? tweet yes or no using #crossfire. we will have the results after our break. [ male announcer] surprise -- you're having triplets. [ babies crying ] surprise -- your house was built on an ancient burial ground. [ ghosts moaning ] surprise -- your car needs a new transmission. [ coyote howls ] how about no more surprises? now you can get all the online trading tools you need without any surprise fees. ♪ it's not rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade.

we are back with tom perielo and nick gillespie. let's call a ceasefire and see if there's anything you two can agree on. you go first. >> i think we probably agree to trust the consumer. ultimately if the health care product is something that consumers particularly young people want to buy, they know how to go on a web site, compare different plans. if they like it they'll buy it. if it's not good they won't buy it. >> i have faith in young people to route around b.s. in their lives. so i agree. >> yea yea, we found something. the system hinges on young people. we got to hope they like the product. thanks to tom perielo and nick gillespie. our fireback question, should secretary sibelius resign over obama care web site problems.

42% say yes, 58% say no. >> from the left i'm van jones. >> from the right i'm s.e. cupp. join us tomorrow for another edition of "crossfire."