sanjay, thank you so much. that's it for me. thank you very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation room." "crossfire" starts right now. but some people still aren't buying it. >> the whole threat of oel obama care continuing to hang over our economy like a wet blanket. >> on the left van jones. on the right newt gingrich. what's the best strategy for selling obama care? is there a plan b? tonight on "crossfire."

welcome to "crossfire." in the kror fire tonight, today the head of just about every major health insurance company was summoned to the white house for a closed-door meeting with the president's closest advisers. you know, with you used to think that ceos in the same industry plotting together could only mean bad things for competitions and higher prices. now these meetings are actually organized and hosted in the without. the achieve has to add to them to the government bureaucrats so they with both conspire. doesn't that bother you? a secret meeting in white house like this? >> i'm all for transparency, but this is fairly low on my list of things to worry about. i'm glad that the white house is meeting with these executives, with tech people. if they weren't doing it, you would be mad at them for not trying to solve the problem.

i'm glad we have some problem-solvers joining us show. howard dean, and former indiana republican chris cha cola now the president of the club for growth. i am sure you are the glad the president is bringing in people to help. you weren't -- this is no big deal. you're proud of the president today? >> absolutely. >> okay. >> i am. you know this isn't an ideological argument. it's an argument about what government can and cannot do. there's a recognition that big government really they probably should have had this secret meeting a long time ago and people would be in a better position. government can do what the prist sector can do. ands there's reason for that. one is because government spends

other people's money on other people. so there's little incentive to become efficient in spending that money. there's not much accountability to it, either. the proof of that would be i don't think anyone went to the president and said, we might have a problem here before they flip the switch, so manage 101 manage to a result, not a time frame. so one in the private sector would be a champion and say to the president, you know what? the time frame is not going to work. it's better to be late and wo, than -- >> i that nothing every goes wrong in the private sector. i think people are making mistakes on both sides, but i wonder, back to you, mr. speaker, if you would admit and agree with me they're not geniuses only in the private sector, you've got geniuses and people make mistake on both sides. >> i don't think -- eye special will when systems are incentivized to do it, i want to

go back to the whole issue of privacy. back in 2003, governor dean, you were concerned about vice president cheney having a variety of secret meetings. this was supposedly a meeting about solving a technical problem, but they didn't invite in the vice presidents of information technologies. they invited in ceos. i have to believe at one level this is part of a general process of getting their stories straight, which has nothing to do with problem solves. >> this is somewhat transparent. it's just the subject matter -- look, i don't disagree with everything that chris said, but government is running this. it's model afterward what mitt romney did in massachusetts, and that was pretty successful. woulder going to del -- that can was kicked down the road, but

98.5% have health insurance. the private sector didn't do it. that's why there's a government roll-in here, even if it's simply to make it easier to buy health insurance. i think we need to give it a chance. did they screw up? yes, system common in technological roll-outs? absolutely yes. my rule is costs twice as much, and it lasts twice as long. the mistake i think that was made was not to have this bill passed, which i didn't support, but i do think it's going to work. the mistake they made was if you're going to do this, you ought to use ute private/public partnership. the country -- the 36 states who didn't partake in their own exchange should have been divided up into four or five groups, and they should have bid this out four or five groups at a time and had different companies running each exchange.

that's 101. that's something that the private sector person should have thought of. >> i would love to hear your response. what i like about the governor saying is these thinks are iterative. you voted for medicare part d. a horrible roll-out. 12% of the seniors said it was a good idea at the time. i continued to work, improved it. and now everybody loves it. why can't we have that same process now? >> well, i think that the problem with the website -- i agree with the president, that obama care is not just a website. it's a health care program. what the governor said is there is some involvement of the private sector, but it's 100% mandated by the federal government. it's not the private sector and free markets deciding what to offer i think this website debate is temporary.

they've figure it out. >> there can be a number of problems, but don't you agree -- i mean, you can't bout say it was great for the federal government to get involved, and then turn around and say it's horrible to get involved. i voted for it, didn't you? >> that was it is biggest mistake i made. >> seriously. every senior watching this wants to thank you for that mistake. >> the bottom line is that is in large part a privately run plan. there are free market forces, a republican signed it. i'm not defending it, but it has exceeded the expectations, and is the only plan i know of that's cheaper that cbo predicted it would be.

>> that's true. and it turned out to work well. >> i'm not asking for credit. [ laughter ] . >> there's a lot of posturing going on here, as there always is. seems to be worse than most of us can ever remember, but there are some things that will work out well. is to get to universal health care, using the private sector. that's essential what we've done. it's not entirely the private sector, but mostly the private sector. i didn't agree about that. i think we ought to make it work, and mitt romney showed us it does work. >> but nationally i think the current projects is at least 30

million uninsured, even under this system. >> partly because republican governor refuse to accept medica medicaid. that's part of the problem. i did not support this bill. interestingly enough, i agree with the republicans on the individual mandate. so we are where we arivities let me jump in with that. senator shahin today has suggested there ought to be some real flexibility build in, they ought to move back the penalties, for example, because you may be penalizing people -- >> i think it's too soon for that, newt. it's not an unreasonable solution if we get down to january 15th, whatever the deadline is and now people can't obey the law, because the website is not ready. right now, honestly, i looked at the list of people supporting that kind of thing. they're all in fairly difficult reelection, whether in the house or senate. i liked jean shahin a lot.

but this is right now posturing. >> if you had had a mistake this big, 3 1/2 years to repair it. you roll it out without a beta test, it crashes and burns pretty decisively. i mean, wouldn't you have held somebody accountable in the government? >> we don't know who is accountable. i certainly wouldn't hire kathleen sebelius. if not her, who would the hold accountable? >> we don't know who made the decisions. clearly two things happened. first of all, the republican did put every rodblock they possibly could in the way, so the kind of tech stuff that needed to get done was not done on time. that was part of it. but the other part was this is -- this is really tough stuff. we don't do tech very well in this country in terms of implementation. we're incredibly good at the

innovation, but the in other words talked to the in other words and never actually talked to the users. so that happens all t time. >> speaking of in other words talking to in other words, these in other words will have to keep talking after the break. we've been talking about the problems for a long time, but when we get back, i want to talk about some real solutions. we'll talk about that once we get back. it's estimated that 30% of the traffic in a city

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we have howard dean and chris chocola. i am beyond frustrated that democrats are in this defensive crouch over a crappy website. i'm frustrated that republicans seem content to sit back and throw rocks. i think for all americans, the whole thing is just ridiculous. they also don't want -- they want this leaders in both parties to come together to fix obama care, to upgrade it. in fact right now we could already have a giant bipartisan upgrade obama care coalition if anyone actually wanted to solve the problems. i hope with kell talk about that tonight. so to you. here's the headlines. health spending rises at blistering pace.

it could spend many -- health ware plans are dwindling in the united states. headlines from 2006 and 2005. before obama was elected, before there was obama care, before the shutdown, before the glitchy website, this system was in disarray. can you give us a solution that's not a repeal the whole thing? is there any lucien you can lead us on? >> speaker gingrich has done a lot of work. to read his book would be part of the solution. but the -- owner of the health care with the use of the health care, where people make rational decision, because today it's disconnected. in view of how -- and how much it costs, so you look for free market solutions that look to reconnect them. when's the last time you took a

rental car to twash? youdon't. >> fe market economics doesn't work in health care, what paul ryan should have done to get this free market supposedly thing, he should have transported it to the people who are making the decision, which is the provider. the way you do that is very simple. you end fee for service medicine. right now, the way free market capitalism works in medicine is we get paid to do as much as we possibly can. the incentives in the system encourage us, physicians, to drive costs up as high as we possibly can. that's how we get paid. if you paid us to keep people well, we would. >> currentry you have this triangular system, where i get care, you're the doctor -- i want we sent the bill to van. >> so the insurance company resentence both of us, and the system is designed to be fliskt

driven. i would argue going in the opposite direction, in fact if we had price and quality transparency. if i knew how much -- the difference in hospital prices. in fact the california personnel system just went down this road last year. they now incentivize their workers to go to any of the least expensive hospitals. the difference between -- to get a hip replacement in california can be like five times as much money, depending on which hospital. >> those kinds of inkrechbtives i think are good. the fundamental problem, though, is that patients -- and doctors are the worst, do not make good decisions in the heat of seniors illness, so hsas, for example, work so this is something that conservatives want to put in, and they do work. the problem is they save you $100 for not going -- but the myomoney is the $100 those coronary bias graft with rehab. the way you do that, instead of

paying doctors and hospitals to do more and more of that stuff and more mris and cardiac caths, you pay them to keep the patient well. flat -- >> you tell me what's wrong with that? when he talks, that makes perfect good sense, but i'll bet you don't agree. >> we don't trust people to so we need a system that protects them from themselves. anything you want to consume, you know, i have a health savings account, i've had it for several years. i had lasik surgery 14 years ago and you can get it done cheaper today than what i paid for it. free markets work i think in every marketplace, including health care, but you know, i agree that people that truly need help should get help. there should be some safety net in place for people that need health care that can can't get it otherwise, but for people that can provide for themselves, they trust them to make decisions. >> historically they don't.

>> i've taken care of doctors, chris, and they make awful decision. when i had my hip replaced a couple years ago, i was telling the orthopedic nurses what to do. i don't know anything about orthopedics. it was the emotional place that i was in. >> that may be a characteristic of doctors. >> it's a characteristic of everybody when you're under enormous emotional stress from a serious illness, you don't make terribly good decisions. it's not like buying a ford when you're not under emotional stress. >> your example is too good. my mother, 81, has had both hips replaced at gunderson lutheran hospital in lacrosse. she what us a compliant patient. she knew she didn't know. this is one of the great challenges with doctors. >> that's true. >> but let any give you an example. there's a terrific new start-up in california. i think his called thoramus, a woman dropped out of the stanford as a sophomore, found a

molest for doing they can do 1,000 lab tests with a drop of blood. they just went online at a local drugstore and have posted all their prices. she has -- their company as said they can take 50% out of the cost of medicare and medicaid diagnostics. here is the challenge. no laboratory in america will post their prices. they're all trade secrets. all these misdemeanor technology companies that want a tax break, none of them will tell you their prices. >> let me go intoic to you, chris. you have these innovations there are moderate democrats and moderate republicans. if we all got around the table and came up with something, and then some good republicans said we're going to assistant together with this, would you support that on would you primary 24e78? my concern is there are people who might be able to agree, but then they good a phrase that a good force or strong tea party

movement might primary movement. good ideas -- if it's upgrading obama care, no, we would not support it. >> even if with ideas? i want if the make is, it's fundamentally flawed. >> so you won't allow any fix. >> if it's government-run health care where people don't have a choice, then, no, we would not support it. we have more individual choice when you go on the exchange and pick two or three or six, eight, ten plans than you do in an employer-based system. right now your employer chooses what health care plan. under obama care, the individual gets to do that. >> a lot of the stuff in obama care was proposed by john mccain in 2008. >> in florida 300,000 poem get a her that said your plan ends as

of january 1, you can pick one of these four. by the way, we can't tell you the price and we can't tell you the deductible. >> i guess the florida governor want to do make this work, this el would have more choices. >> if people want certain service, they should be able to get those. >> well, 245 -- should i pay and my health insurance policy pay for pregnancy, which obviously is not possible. >> if you have a family coverage, yes. if you have a family coverage and there are women in the paem, yes. >> so this is probably the fundamental difference between us. and that is i actually think it's in my best interests as an american to make sure that people get good prenatal care, whether they're related to me or not. now we have this how much of community do we believe in. that's what this is really about. >> you believe in coercive community. >> no, i don't. >> you're saying i'm not going to give you a choice, i want to

take your money. >> taxing is coercive, right? but we all do it. we may disagree on what we spend it on, about you we all do it. you all please stay with us. next we cease fire. is there anything these two can agree on? we also want you to weigh in on today's fire tweet yes or no uses #"crossfire." we'll have the results after the break. i got this. [thinking] is it that time? the son picks up the check? [thinking] i'm still working. he's retired. i hope he's saving. i hope he saved enough. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. whether you're just starting your 401(k)

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we are back with howard dean and chris. now, let's call a cease-fire. is there anything we can agree on? chris? >> i think we can agree on the fact that the website will get fixed eventually. we may not agree on what happens next. as i think the real problems begin once people actually start getting into this system. but i think they will get it fixed and this will be an old story at some point. >> i hope you are right because the sooner it gets to be an old story and people get in and get their health care that will be great. i also think we may not agree on exactly the date but agree that if this goes on for a long time, this website problem, they are going to have to relax the mandates and deadlines because it is obviously unfair. i think -- my personal belief is they are jumping the gun. at some point you can't, by law, require people do they can't do. >> there's a certain bit irony to the debate we just had that -- you know, over the delay but we will probably have to

have a delay regardless of what your ideology or is what your view of obama care is or practical problems. they are going to have to get solve. >> do you think that there is a date at which it begins to be a real problem for the president? >> yeah. politically, you mean? >> yes. >> yes. i think -- sometime march or april, if it is -- a disaster, the bad will that leads up to that, if it goes that long it would be hard to overcome. i truly believe even though this was not my idea, that -- when this thing gets into effect, it is going to be a huge plus for the president. i really do believe that. because there are a lot of people even in the tea party that will get health insurance a lot cheaper. but it can't go on like this. >> i want to thank you both. you have been awesome and have you both back again. for you at home, if you want to stay a part of this debate, you can go to facebook or twitter and you can weigh in on our fire back question. is it okay for the white house to host an insurance executives behind closed doors. right now 33% of you say yes. 67% say no. so the debate will continue

online at cnn.com/crossfire as well as facebook and twitter. >> join us tomorrow for another edition of "crossfire." "aaron burnett o erin burnett "out front" starts now. the murder conviction of michael thrown out. >> it is more worrisome to me the president says he's unaware of everything that's going around him. >> plus, did a 14-year-old boy beat his math teacher to death? >> i think it is -- i'm completely shocked. i don't think philip would be the type of person to do this. >> let's go out front.