efforts. >> nobody completed. >> not one them. that's it for me. thanks very much for watching. i'm wolf blitzer in "the situation room." "crossfire" starts right now. they're beautiful, entertaining, and just like their name says, killer whales. do they belong in activities, or should they be left in the wild. ? associate producer of "blackfish" and a wildlife trainer and conservationist. free the whales or put them on display. welcome to "crossfire." >> in the "crossfire" tonight. tim zimmerman.

a trainer was killed by one of the orcas at seaworld. >> i've taken my kid to the big aquarium. i always had a great time. i thought it was wonderful. i was really shocked when i learned how risky these jobs are for the trainers and how terrible the conditions are. look at this clip. >> we started having difficulty getting them into a small steel box.

during the winter that would be 5:00 at night. you would see new tooth rakes and blood. closing that door and knowing he's locked in there for the whole night is like -- >> whoa. this is really heartbreaking stuff. there's stuff in this film that's so compelling and unbelievable. you have one orca that's kyle three human beings. this film is an indictment of the entire system. >> i do think that "blackfish is a very compelling" and very powerful film. as someone who regularly watches

a whole lot of animal films, i found it intriguing, but i think you have to put it in context. the fact is that this was a terrible indent, a terrible indictment of some of the seaworld's processes, because in the "crossfire" tonight we have tim zimmerman, as associate producer of the film and wildlife training irgray stafford. you really did great work on this, there are two ways to look at it. one is that there are deep questions raised about the seaworld management system form the other is a general indictment of having large mammals in these kind of aquariums. which case quar would you emphasize? >> what i learned i think most

people come away from the movie trying to answer that question. if you take large highly intelligent, there are few speechies that are self-aware, and you pet them in an environment, this is not very natural. most zoos have natural environments, and they teach audiences about the natural history. seaworld is about one thing, entertainment. entertainment is fine, but you have to ask the question at what cost to the animals? >> i know you're a by closer to -- i don't understand the justification. you tell me how i should be thinking about it. i thought this was about

national and getting people close to nature. do animals turn on their side and wave at each other? do they do tricks for food? this isn't about nature. >> we are the advocates for these animals. we have the relationships based on positive reinforcement. now, some of the things you mentioned, when you and i were kids, people were using killer whales for target practice. never mind that thousands of dolphins were being caught in nets. >> we're all against that stuff. >> why? because we had places lie seaworld that taught us they are mammals like us.

if i took you and stuffed you in the greenroom and drug you out for a show you wouldn't be a happy mammal. why is this good for the mammals? ichblgts first of all, i think you have to look at what's going on today. a lot of things depicted are from 30, 40 years ago. has there been a learn curve? you bet. what i can say to you is that no one cares more about their animals than today's modern trainers. >> i take your word on that. i think there's a difference between a zoo, which keeps animals and trying to make sure they in a good environment and a circus that forces animals to do stuff they would never do ordinary. >> first of all, i started as a trainer at a seaworld in ohio. i know exactly how it is.

what i can tell you is the marine mammal field in general represents a progressive movement towards positive reinforcement based training. not the -- or elephant trainers, other communities. marine mammal trainers have led the way and per effected and refined using voluntary cooperation. now, you're going to say, well, we're not withholding food. what we do is we provide a variety of reinforcers for the animals for cooperative behaviors. we're teaching animals to participate in their own individual care. >> it turns out we -- the animals cooperate pretty well in nature, but we're taking them away from their own nature-based cooperative roots. i want newt to have a chance. >> i'm going to say, first of all, the audience is probably curious about this. i want people to know that i'm

disappointed that seaworld has represented themselves. i'm delighted to have someone as competent and professional as greg, but this movie raises some troubling questions. they did release a statement, saying the film paints a distorted pictures that withholds from viewers key facts about seaworld, among them that seaworld is one of most respected institutions seaworlds commits millions annually to conservation and scientific research. i thought we ought to say that in fairness, but personally, i would like to extend an invitation to sea word, to have a representative come and by on the show one night. i am disappoint that they are not here tonight.

with the research, to what degree did you get any cooperation out sea world? >> to sea world's correct i requested interviews with management and trainers there. they provided those. they were very tightly provided, but they did speak with me and gave me than perspective. so i included that in the article. two years later when we were working on the movie, by then i think they were in a bit of a bunker and decided not to engage in this type of investigative journalism. we tried endlessly to get them to provide their side of the story. it's ironic to complain that the movie is distorted if you refuse to come forward and present your point of view. so i don't think that's a very fair criticism. >> i would like to show a piece of it, and then -- you mentioned the whole thing about cooperation. i did not know that these

mammals had such evolved brains that -- their brains are bigger thas than ours, they have this complex family structures, which this whole process disrupts. i want you to respond to this clip. they live in these big families, and they have life spans very -- that females can live to about 100, maybe more, but the adult offspring never leave their mother's side. why is snatching these animals a -- >> the vast majority of them have been born in human care, so they weren't taken from the wild. like a lot of zoo logical to promote the species, so there isn't any need to collect --

>> if i might, i want to give you a very different way to think about zoos and aquarium. we have the numbers to prove it. move when we come back. i got this. [thinking] is it that time? the son picks up the check? [thinking] i'm still working. he's retired. i hope he's saving. i hope he saved enough. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. whether you're just starting your 401(k) or you are ready for retirement, we'll help you get there.

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associate producer tim zimmermann and conservationist greg stafford. zoos and aquariums are special places where most people take their children to learn about nature. they're also happy palaces. families visit them again and again. last year in the u.s., they drew 175 million people. that's more than the combined attendancy of 130 million for last year's nfl, nba, national hockey league, and major league baseball games. so, tim, wouldn't you agree that we shouldn't close the nation's zoos and aquariums, though there may occasionally be specific problems? >> i think zoos can serve a great purpose and there are many animals that work well in zoos. i think the question is, should all animals be in zoos? one important distinction i want to make is we're talking about zoos, and how they teach people with natural history.

seaworld killer whale shows have fireworks, they have rock music, flarning lights. there's not much natural history talk about killer whales. so when you're asking the question, is it ethical or right to have killer whales at seaworld, we're asking a question of whether it's ethical to have them for an entertainment show and making profit. >> let me just say, i did hundreds of killer whale shows in my early career. you're right, they're fun i don't see therein any problem with a fun but informative program. it might not be the kind of dry information you might see at other programs, about you it certainly has a way of grabbing people's attention and instill an empathy, that passion for preserves species. just because it's fun doesn't mean it's not ethical and not the right thing to do. >> the truth is there's almost no natural history in seaworld shows, you go to the show which

dawn helped create, and you don't learn any facts about killer whales. the act that is seaworld does portray, they often portray them incorrectly. to tell them what they're like in the wild will raise questions in people's minds why the killer whales are in these pools. >> like i said, i've done a lot of shows, and it talks about the powerful ability as predators, talk about their -- so i think it's disingenuous to say there's no conservation message going on there, as you find in all modern zoos. >> if tomorrow morning seaworld heard your message and redesigned the show, and redesigned the exhibit to be dramatic increase in knowledge about natural history, about conservati conservation, about the role of killer whales. would that satisfy you? or would you be objecting to the act of killer whales in that kind of environment? >> that would be a vast xwrismt

i think over the conditions and exist enthey live, and seaworld, i hope you're listening, that would be great. but i think if you look at killer whales and the experience they have in captivity, you have to conclude it's not a suitable environment for them. the single greatest thing that tells you that is mortality in captivity is 2 1/2 to 3 times what it is in the wild. it's stressful. they're on ant acids, antidepressant, antibiotics a lot. there's a lot of things in captivity that a large, intelligence free-ranging animals finds very stressful. the fact that it kills them at the rate that it does, and kills them younger than in the wild, we have to ask. >> we have to be careful about that. again that goes under the category of the -- the jury is still out. there's a lot of data that needs to be collected. when you have a large data set like in the -- a lot of data points over the span of 35 years

or more, but then a very population, a small subset of data, there is so much variability in living systems, any living creature. so there are challenges to making toss statistical interpretations. some of the stuff we're learning already is pretty shocking. i want to make sure we're being fair to seaworld. they did try to address some of the concerns. they do criticize this film. they say the film fails to mention seaworld commitment to the safety of its team members and its guests, and to the care and welfare of the animals as demonstrated by the company's continual refinement and improvement of the facilities, equipment and procedures, both before and after the death a dawn brancho. but here's my problem. how much more risk are they supposed to take?

osha actually just got hit in june for the same kind of stuff that we are complaining about now? >> but van, i think we need perspective. losing dawn was an awful tragedy. any trainer is one too many. but when you compare it to normal, everyday occupations, the risks are far greatest. we've those a thousand journalists in the last 20 years. far more dangerous for journalists than ton an -- can we look back and say we should have done that, cld hav fixed that, 30, 40 years ago, you bet. but i think the distinction is, with accredited, modern zoos, you have that commitment, it's a voluntary commitment on the part of our institutions to say, look, we're not complacent. independents it's voluntary for you guys, but not voluntary for the animals. >> it absolutely is.

>> let me ask you a question then. you're saying these animals are voluntary staying there. if you open the gate? they're -- >> there are some facilities that are coastal areas around the world, they actually open the gate, take them out and the animals come back. >> that's very good to hear. >> so a lot of -- >> but why do you think, honestly, if you know about this, and we're here to hear from you, but i think when people watch this film, they'll say why are the dorsal films collapsing, why are they gnawing their teeth? why are you putting different fish together to fighting -- why don't you put up with better weighing to -- >> again without getting too deep in the woods, we learn by doing, and that's exactly true of any endeavor, including zoos and aquariums. you wouldn't go to a physician if that physician he or shall el used a textbook from 1965.

the same applies in this situation. we're using what we've learned over the past several decades. do you agree with this? this is a wonderful happy land? this is the fantasy that -- >> van, c'mon, that footage is from decades ago in canada at a facility . they've learned a lot about husbandry, and techniques, but the killer whales still die at the same rate as the t 1200

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we're going to call a cease fire. is there anything that you two can actually agree on in. >> i would say if killer whales are to be kept in captivity, i don't think they should be. they're creating better environments, more natural environments and building a lot more natural history into the programs would be a step in the right direction. i think as we learn more, trainers working with positive reinforcement are working every day to make their lives better and more stimulating. >> let me reinforce this. if you look at the best modern zoos, they have evolved in the last 30 or 40 years. if you go look at the zoo of 40 years ago and you look at the best zoos of today, they're much more aware of the animals' psychologically, socially as well as physically.

and they work on enhanced programs to keep them interested and to keep them busy. too to give them full illment. my sense is we're not as far with aquariums. partly because we know less overall about marine mammals than we know about certain terrestrial mammals because of the length of time we've been studying them. i don't know if you would agree with that. if you look at the very best of the zoos, they are in a really different world in designing facilities. that the sea world of 20 years from now will probably have significantly different conditions. >> and also the relationship between keeper and animal is like. this it is not like this. they are participants. >> thanks to tim zimmerman and gary stafford. go to facebook or twitter to weigh in on our fireback question. would you take your kids to

seaworld? right now, 39% of you say yes. 61% say no. >> the debate will continue online at cnn.com/crossfire as well as on facebook and twitter. join us tomorrow for another edition of "crossfire." erin burnett "outfront" starts right now. next, the obama care blame game. >> we identifies error in the code identified by others. >> we have no role in the development of the website. >> plus, why is she dead? >> i don't know how someone could do this to someone. >> how a 24-year-old teacher's body ended up in the woods. and spying on friends. >> it is never acceptable. >> how easy is to it hack the cell phone of a world leader? we found out.