they're beautiful, entertaining, and just like their name says, killer whales. do they belong in activities, or should they be left in the wild? on the left van jones. on the right newt gingrich. the associated producer of the movie "blackfish" and a wildlife trainer and conservationist. free the whales or put them on display? tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire." i'm newt gingrich on the right. >> and i'm dan jones on the left. >> in the "crossfire" tonight. tim zimmerman. he wrote a magazine article that inspired a film called "blackfish" and greg who is a wildlife trainer and

conservationist. listen, tonight cnn is airing a film, it's a tough one. it's about a woman, a trainer. she was actually killed by one of the orcas at seaworld. as a dad i've taken my kid to these big aquariums. i always had a great time. i thought it was wonderful. you're seeing these big animals up close, so i was really shocked when i learned how risky these jobs are for the trainers, and how terrible the conditions are for these magnificent creatures after they get captured. look at this clip from the film "blackfish." >> we started having difficulty getting them into a small steel box. to be honest, that's what it was. it was a floating steel box. that's from food deprivation would come in. we would hold back food, and they would know if they went into the module they would get their food. and so if they're hungry enough they're going to go in there. during the winter that would be 5:00 at night to 7:00 in the morning. you would see new tooth rakes and sometimes you would see blood.

closing that door and knowing he's locked in there for the whole night is like -- to staff it's whoa! this is really heartbreaking stuff, newt. there's stuff in this film that's so compelling and unbelievable. one of the things is that you have one orca that has killed three human beings. that's three more human beings than all the orcas in the world that have ever killed, because orcas don't kill human beings in nature. but they do in captivity. this film is an indictment of of the entire system of grabbing the animals and holding them in captivity. >> i do think that "blackfish is a very compelling and i think a very powerful film. as someone who regularly watches a whole lot of animal films, i found it very, very intriguing, but i also think you have to put

it in context. the fact is that this was a terrible indent, a terrible indictment of some of the seaworld's processes, and we're going to get into that. because in the "crossfire" tonight we have tim zimmerman, an associate producer of the film and wildlife trainer gray stafford. you really did great work on think, and you did the initial research to put the film together. there are two ways to look at it. one is that there are deep questions raised about the seaworld management system, they're approach, what they're doing. the other is a general indictment of having large mammals in these kind of aquariums. are you making both cases, or which case would you emphasize? >> the case that i emphasize and what i learned doing the research for the article and then participating in the production of the movie is the bigger question. just about the ethics. the question of whether it's ethical and wise to keep these

animals in captivity. there is a trainer safety issue, and that's also part of the story. but i think most people come away tr the movie trying to answer that question. if you take large highly intelligent, self aware animals, there are very few species that are self aware like humans are and you put them in an environment like seaworld, which is not a very natural environment. most zoos have very natural environments and they teach audiences about the natural histories of the animals. seaworld is about one thing. entertainment. entertainment is fine, but you have to ask the question at what cost to the animals? that's the question presented in the movie. >> i would like to hear from you on this. i know you're somebody closer to this whole world. you have a real connection with this world of training animals, et cetera. et don't understand the justification having now seen this film. let me set the question up and you tell me how i should be thinking about it. >> sure. i thought this was about nature and getting people close to nature. do animals, like these orcas turn on their side and wave at each other the way that they're forced to in this?

do they do tricks for food in nature? this is not about nature. it's about torturing animals to make them do tricks for you. >> there's so many things in your statement that we could take an hour. we are the advocates for these animals. we are the ones that have relationships based on positive reenforcement. so we know these animals better than anyone else. we know how they're doing each day. now, some of the things you mentioned, when you and i were kids, people were using killer whales for target practice. no one cared about where their tuna fish came from. never mind the fact that tens of thousands of dolphins were being caught in tuna nets in the '60s and '50s and beyond. >> we're all against that stuff. >> we are. and why are we against it? because we had places lie seaworld that taught us they are mammals like us. they are born with hair. >> yeah, but that's exactly my point. they're mammals like us. now if i took you and stuffed you in the green room in these dark conditions and dug you out

for a show for "crossfire" and shoved you back in the green room, you wouldn't be a happy mammal. why is this good for for the mall malls? >> well, i think first of all, looking back you have to look at what's going on today. a lot of things depicted are from 30, 40 years ago. are we perfect? have we learned? has there been a learning curve in zoos and aquariums in yen? what i can say to you is that no one cares more about their animals than today's modern trainers. >> i take your word on that. i think there's a difference between a zoo, which keeps animals and trying to make sure they in a good environment and a circus that forces animals to do stuff they would never do ordinarily. >> first of all, i started as a trainer at a seaworld in ohio. >> you are aware of this. >> so i know exactly how it is. what i can tell you is the marine mammal field in general represents a progressive movement towards positive reinforcement based training.

not the -- or elephant trainers, other communities. marine mammal trainers have led the way and perfected and refined using voluntary cooperation. animals can choose to swim away if they want to. now, you're going to say we're withholding. we're not withholding food. now what we do is we provide a variety of reinforceers for the animals for cooperative behaviors. we're teaching animals to participate in their own individual care. and hopefully their species survival. >> i want to talk to you as it goes forward. they cooperate pretty well out in nature. but we're taking them away from their own nature based cooperative roots. i want newt to have a chance. >> i'm going to say, first of all, the audience is probably curious about this. i want people to know that i'm disappointed that seaworld hasn't represented themselves. i'm delighted to have someone as competent and professional as greg, but this movie raises some

troubling questions. they did release a statement, saying the film paints a distorted pictures that withholds from viewers key facts about seaworld, among them that seaworld is one of most respected institutions seaworlds commits millions annually to conservation and scientific research. i thought we ought to say that in fairness, but personally, i would like to extend an invitation to sea word, to have a representative come and by on the show one night. i am disappoint that they are not here tonight. with the research, to what degree did you get any

cooperation out sea world? >> to seaworld's credit when i did my research for the article, just after dawn brancheau was killed, i requested interviews with management and trainers there. and they provided those. they were very tightly provided, but they did speak with me and gave me than perspective. so i included that in the article. two years later when we were working on the movie, by then i think seaworld was a bit in a bunker by then and decided they didn't want to engage in this investigative journalism. they refused to participate in the movie. we tried endlessly to get them to provide their side of the story. it's ironic to complain that the movie is distorted if you refuse to come forward and present your point of view. so i don't think that's a very fair criticism. >> speaking of the movie, i would like to show a little piece of it. you mentioned a whole thing about cooperation. i did not know these mammals have such evolved brains.

they have these complex family structures, which this whole process disrupts. i want you to respond to this clip. they live in these big families, and they have life spans very similar to human life spans. that females can live to about 100, maybe more. males to about 50 or 60. but the adult offspring never leave their mother's side. >> so before we go to break, it would be great to just get quickly from you, why is snatching these animals away from their parents and their moms in particular a great thing? >> first of all, all the killer whales in human care the vast majority of them have been born in human care. so they weren't taken from the wild. and seaworld, like a lot of zoological, promote the species so there isn't any need to collect.

>> if i might, i want to give you a very different way to think about zoos and aquarium. frankly it's the way most americans think about them. we have the numbers to prove it. move when we come back. [ male announcer ] at northrop grumman, we've always been on the forefront of innovation. when the world called for speed... ♪ ...when the world called for stealth... ♪ ...intelligence... endurance... affordability... adaptability... and when the world asked for the future. staying ahead in a constantly evolving world. that's the value of performance. northrop grumman.

unisom sleeptabs help you fall asleep 33% faster and wake refreshed. unisom. a stressful day deserves a restful night. welcome back. tonight cnn premiers unique and compelling film "blackfish" about killer whales and incidents where people were killed. in the "crossfire" tonight, associate producer tim zimmermann and conservationist greg stafford. zoos and aquariums are special places where most people take their children to learn about

nature. they're also happy palaces. families visit them again and again. last year in the u.s., they drew 175 million people. that's more than the combined attendance of 130 million for last year's nfl, nba, national hockey league and major league baseball games. so, tim, wouldn't you agree that we shouldn't close the nation's zoos and aquariums, though there may occasionally be specific problems? >> i think zoos can serve a great purpose and there are many animals that work well in zoos. i think the question is, should all animals be in zoos? one important distinction i want to make is we're talking about zoos, and how they teach people with natural history. seaworld killer whale shows have fireworks, they have rock music, flarning lights. there's not much natural history talk about killer whales in those shows. so when you're asking the question, is it ethical or right

to have killer whales at seaworld, we're asking a question of whether it's ethical to have them for an entertainment show and making profit. >> and sorry to interrupt, but let me just say, i did hundreds of killer whale shows in my early career. you're right, they're fun i don't think there's any problem with having a fun but informative program. and sure we try to incorporate the messages, and it might not be the kind of dry things you may see at other programs, but it certainly has a way of grabbing people's attention and instilling in them that empathy, that passion for preserving species. just because it's fun doesn't mean it's not ethical and not the right thing to do. >> the truth is there's almost no natural history in seaworld shows, you go to the show which dawn helped create, and you don't learn any facts about killer whales. the act that is seaworld does portray, they often portray them incorrectly.

to tell them what they're like in the wild will raise questions in people's minds why the killer whales are in these pools. >> like i said, i've done a lot of shows, and it talks about the powerful ability as predators, talk about their -- so i think it's disingenuous to say there's no conservation message going on there, as you find in all modern zoos. >> if tomorrow morning seaworld heard your message and redesigned the show, and redesigned the exhibit to be dramatic increase in knowledge about natural history, about conservation, about the role of killer whales. would that satisfy you? or would you be objecting to the act of killer whales in that kind of environment? >> i mean, that would be a vast improvement i think over the conditions and that exist right

now. and seaworld, if you're listening, that would be great. but i think if you look at killer whales and the experience they have in captivity, you have to conclude it's not a suitable environment for them. the single greatest thing that tells you that is mortality in captivity is 2 1/2 to 3 times what it is in the wild. it's stressful. they're on ant acids, antidepressant, antibiotics a lot. there's a lot of things in captivity that a large, intelligence free-ranging animals finds very stressful. the fact that it kills them at the rate that it does, and kills them younger than in the wild, we have to ask. >> we have to be careful about that. again that goes under the category of the -- the jury is still out. there's a lot of data that needs to be collected. when you have a large data set like in the -- a lot of data points over the span of 35 years or more, but then a very population, a small subset of data that you're trying to compare those to. there's so much variability in

any living systems, any living creature. so there are challenges to making toss statistical interpretations. >> i think you make a point that we're still learning about this. some of the stuff we're learning already is pretty shocking. i want to make sure we're being fair to seaworld. they did try to address some of the concerns. i want to show that and read it to you they do criticize this film. they criticize the film. they say the film fails to mention seaworld commitment to the safety of its team members and its guests, and to the care and welfare of the animals as demonstrated by the company's continual refinement and improvement of the facilities, equipment and procedures, both before and after the death a dawn brancho. but here's my problem. how much more risk are they supposed to take? osha actually just got hit in june for the same kind of stuff that we are complaining about now? >> but van, i think we need perspective. losing dawn was an awful tragedy. any trainer is one too many.

but when you compare it to normal, everyday occupations, the risks are far greatest. we've those a thousand journalists in the last 20 years worldwide. it's for more dangerous to be a journalist in the field to report on wars and famine and natural disasters. can we look back and say we should have done that, could that have been fixed 30, 40 years ago? you bet. but i think the distinction is, with accredited, modern zoos, you have that commitment, it's a voluntary commitment on the part of our institutions to say, look, we're not complacent. independents it's voluntary for you guys, but not voluntary for the animals. >> it absolutely is. >> let me ask you a question then. you're saying these animals are voluntary staying there. if you open the gate? they're --

>> there are some facilities that are coastal areas around the world, they actually open the gate, take them out and the animals come back. >> that's very good to hear. >> so a lot of -- >> but why do you think, honestly, if you know about this, and we're here to hear from you, but i think when people watch this film, they'll say why are the dorsal films collapsing, why are they gnawing their teeth? why are you putting different fish together so they're fighting with each other? what is the good in that? why don't you put them in different housing? >> again without getting too deep in the woods, we learn by doing, and that's exactly true of any endeavor, including zoos and aquariums. you wouldn't go to a physician if that physician he or shall el used a textbook from 1965. the same applies in this situation. we're using what we've learned over the past several decades. and i'm happy to say that with positive reinforcement we're teaching the willing

participants. animals are learning to give blood voluntarily. >> you're saying the animals are not trapped in cages all night that they can't get out of, which is what the film suggests. >> do you agree with this? this is a wonderful happy land? this is the fantasy that -- >> but van, c' mon, that footage is from decades ago at canada facility. >> and this is just about mortality. the killer whales still die at the same rate that they did in the '70s. they die from mosquitos that land on their back because they're on the the surface. one was found with a buoy in his stomach. six have died during a pregnancy

or as a result of giving birth. so these are abhorrent. the fact they haven't been able to improve and keep the animals alive longer suggests something is wrong. >> excuse me, mr. speaker, but there are thousands of animals that wash upon our shore with all sorts of entanglement on their bodies, in their guts. seaworld spends millions of dollars and a lot of human hours rescuing and rehabilitating sealions. hundreds are coming up emaciated. >> and let me say about the females who are dying during the process of reproduction. i suggest if you look at the mortality rate for younger killer whales in the wild it is significantly higher than it would be in seaworld for a number of reasons. it's the nature of life in the wild that is very dangerous.

>> we have to come right back. >> we have to come back. we are going to see if we have can have a cease fire and see if there's anything we can all agree on. i want you to answer our fireback question. would you take your kids to seaworld? vote yes or no. we're going to have the results after the break. [ male announcer ] this is karen and jeremiah. they don't know it yet, but they're gonna fall in love, get married, have a couple of kids, [ children laughing ] move to the country, and live a long, happy life together where they almost never fight about money. [ dog barks ] because right after they get married, they'll find some financial folks who will talk to them about preparing early for retirement and be able to focus on other things, like each other, which isn't rocket science. it's just common sense. from td ameritrade.

we're back with tim

zimmerman and with greg stafford. now we're going to call a cease fire. is there anything that you two can actually agree on? >> i would say if killer whales are to be kept in captivity, i don't think they should be. they're creating better environments, more natural environments and building a lot more natural history into the programs would be a step in the right direction. i think as we learn more, trainers working with positive reinforcement are working every day to make their lives better and more stimulating. >> let me reinforce this. if you look at the best modern zoos, they have evolved in the last 30 or 40 years. if you go look at the zoo of 40 years ago and you look at the best zoos of today, they're much more aware of the animals' psychologically, socially as well as physically. and they actually work on enhanced programs to keep them interested, and to keep them busy and to give them a sense of fulfillment. my sense is we are not as as far down the road with aquariums,

both in design of the actual place and in thinking it through. partly because we know less overall about marine mammals than we know about certain terrestrial mammals because of the length of time we've been studying them. i don't know if you would agree with that. but it seems to me if you look at the the very best of the zoos, they are really in a different world in designing entire facilities. that the seaworld of 20 years from now will probably have significantly different conditions. >> and also the relationship between keeper and animal is like. it's not like this. they are participants. >> thanks to tim zimmerman and gary stafford. go to facebook or twitter to weigh in on our fireback question. would you take your kids to seaworld? right now, 39% of you say yes. 61% say no. >> the debate will continue online at cnn.com/crossfire as well as on facebook and twitter. from the left.