thanks very much for watches. "crossfire" with special guests ron paul, race mar reese turner, "crossfire" starts right now. tonight diagnosing what's wrong with obama care. even if he isn't worried, should he be? should the president have known more about the problem? on the left brian schweitzer, on the right s.e. kipp. in the crossfire, and grace ma returner, who thinks it's wrong for america. can obama care's problems be fixed? she it be delayed? welcome to "crossfire." in the crossfire tonight ron pollack, and one of the its

critics, grace ma returner. this just this, healthcare.gov is up and running. it crashed briefly yesterday. by now everybody knows how bungled the roll-out has been. democrats are frustrated. silicon valley is increditius, jon stewart is appear oplektic, just over the weekend "saturday night live" was hilarious. >> tonight i have a number of friendly tips to help you deal with those technical problems. for example, have you tried restarting your computer? sometimes it helps to turn the computer off, and then turn it back on. we don't know why. it just does. if our website still isn't loading properly, we're probably just overloaded with traffic. millions of americans are visiting healthcare.gov, which is great news. unfortunately the site was only

designed to handle six users at a time. as for the steady stream of jokes that obama care's expense, it seems the 1 person that wasn't at all prepared was the president. apparently no one felt the need to tell him the website isn't ready, they have this thing call google calendar. it lets you know what's doing when and what's coming down the pipe. just a suggestion. please give the president some advice. welcome. >> mr. president, fix it. fast. >> i like it. nice and simple. in the crossfire tonight ron pollack, and grace ma returner. governor, as our guest tonight, i will cede the first question to you. >> grace marie, you have been advocating against insurance reform for years. now we have a system that costs americans roughly twice as much as all the rest of the industrialized world. according to international studies, we have an outcome that

i guess is 36 or 37th place. just behipped or in front of costa rica? i can't remember. you've actually been taking money from the insurance companies and pharmaceutical companies. why are you for the status quo? >> first of all, i am not against insurance reform. in fact, if republicans, conservatives had been in charge, we would have had real insurance reform rather than the federal government taking over the system and really making insurance companies like -- kind of like utilities, like regulated utilities. that number, that 37th in the world has been widely discredited by studies right and left. there are all sorts of reasons and we can get into those separately, but everybody knows we have a health sector that's one of the best in the world. when people are sick. where do they want to come? they want to come here because of the innovation, because of the vitality of our health sector, and we are crushing that under all these regulations from

obama care. >> but excuse me, the health care system as currently operated needed some tweaks. >> yes, it needed tweaks. it did not neat to be completely reengineer reengineered and now it's just mired down in a constant stream of bad headlines. you just got a $1 million grant to findened tell good stories about obama care. why aren't we hearing those? >> right now, because we've had all these computer glitches, which are unmistakably a problem, but that doesn't meep that the affordable care act is a problem. first of all, you say minor fixes. there are 48 million people in the united states who are uninsured today. that's more than the aggregate population of 24 states plus the district of columbia. besides that, you have lots of

people who have health coverage. with each passing year, they're finding that the costs have risen enormous will you. the past decade they have risen more than twofold. so the affordable care act is there to do a number of things. number one, let's make sure that we do something to make health coverage affordable. number two, let's make sure the insurance company practices that deny coverage to people, when they have a preexisting condition, like asthma, dibeads, high blood pressure, they no longer can do that. they can't charge discriminat y discriminatory -- they can't charge women higher premiums. these are things that a lot of people want fixed. remember, about a third of americans have some form of preexisting condition. they're either denied coverage by an insurance company, or if they lose their coverage from an employer, they're at great risk.

those things need to be changed. >> i've read some of the things you've said. they're very confident that the website is going to be fixed. it's going to -- why are you confident? based on what? >> so, s.e., you know, we've had a similar experience a bunch of years ago -- >> let me guess, medicare part d. >> you've got it absolutely right. >> we need to talk about obama care. >> and actually some pretty good public servants running it. mark mcclelland was -- these are good public servants. we had the exact same problems. >> police tell me the difference between obama kay and medicare part d. >> i think we need to attack this issue about the uninsured. yes, 48 million uninsured right now. how many does the cbo say will continue to be uninsured after obama care takes over? 33 million. we're not causing the problem.

are premiums going down? a year for seniors? no. >> that's not even true. that's not just misleading, it's not even true. if the republican governors would have extended the coverage, it would have covered the people up to 1133%. >> but 30 million un14rd still. >> what grace-marie is explaining, there are about 10 to 12 million people, who she's right, will not get covered. 30! >> and the artable care act says we're not going to help those folks, but everybody else is eligible for coverage. grace some marie's numbers are -- >> let me ask this question. my wife and i, we're private business people. we have a private insurance company. we pay about $1200 a month. >> just for the two of you? >> just for the two of us. we live on the end of a dirt

road on a mountaintop. we don't have fiber-optic cable. it took about eight days to break through this exchange website, and here's what we found. we found a policy just like the policy we have, for $800. what's wrong with that? >> that's a great deal. but talk to all those people in california who said my policy cost me $97 a month before. that's being dropped because of the obama care, and now costs -- >> those are policies that have caps at dwlr 400 or $5,000. no preexisting conditions, charge women higher premiums, and is simply not fair. it's not america. >> and, governor, what's really misleading, what she's talking about are swiss cheese insurance policies. they don't insure. they have high deductibles, they've got high copayments, they don't cover a lot of -- >> in california -- >> lifetime caps.

>> usual and customary, so they just refuse to pay? >> let's talk about the deductibles with obama care is $8,000. >> when you need health care, it's not there to insure you. what the affordable care act does is that it provides comprehensive coverage, so if you need care, you're not going to be left in the -- >> if you have a policy in california, you are likely to have a $4 thounz deductible for an individual. that's higher than the policy with the person who had the $97 premiumer her deductible is higher. 65 when you go see a specialist. yes you have caps and lifetime limits, yes, women may pay less, but men pay a lot more. >> so, so -- >> these are the problems. >> one of the things the affordable care act does, and you were alluding to, governor, no longer is there an annual cap. if you have a major illness, and

you have an accident, you're in the hospital, and all of is you'd you're cut off the case, or you have a lifetime cap. what the affordable care act says, if you buy insurance, no longer should there be an annual cap or a lifetime cap. so it's real insurance. it's not swiss chiers coverage. >> right -- >> so that's helpful. >> and let's point out, once again, that the whole premise of obama care hinges on all these young healthy people signing up to support all these sick people, which they have never done. >> imam so delighted you raise that. young adults will do really well -- >> if they sign on. of course. >> rather than take the penalty, which in some cases might be cheaper. >> it's going to be much better to have the coverage that's subsidized. the reason you're asking the right question is we do want

young adults in the pool, but they will fare better, for the following reason. the act provides significant premium subsidies for people up to 400%. if you're living alone, a young adult, up to $46,000, and it's provided on a sliding scale. that means the greater the help you need, the greater help you'll receive. for young adult -- let me make this point. >> sure. >> for young adults, they're the ones with the lowest incomes. they may still be in education. if they have a job, they're in an entry-level position. >> right. >> as a result they're getting paid less, so they're going to get the highest subsidies, and therefore it's going to be a really good deal for them. >> it makes sense to my ears, but this is a huge group of people up to convince to get on to receive all the benefits. >> and you're telling somebody they have had to spend $200, $300 for a policy that's -- >> it's a good things you guys

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go long.

welcome back. in the crossfire, we have ron pollack and grace marie turner. folks, i'm a former governor, i know a thing or two about decisions governors have to make. some of the republicans are making a colossal mistake with your money. let me explain. in 33 states, governors, many republicans, chose not to build their own health insurance exchanges. apparently they wanted the federal government to do the work for them.

now, don't you think it's odd for republicans to say that, never mind those states' rights we've been talking about, we want the federal government to fix things for us? to make things worse, 21 governor,s again mostly republicans, have rejected the money for obama care's expanse of medicaid. if they don't want the federal money to medicate, maybe they'll give back the hundreds of billions also for highways and bridges and military bases, too. now, grace-marie, don't you agree it was a mistake for these republican governors to not to build their own insurance insurance exchange, number one. number two, literally, it's $100 billion in -- in alabama, they want it's going to cost them 20-some thousand jobs. so this is billions going to republican states, and now their taxpayers will send their money to washington, d.c. and it will be redistributed. >> first of all, with chess exchange, can you imagine there's a single governor out

there imagine even the states that are completely all in. organ hasn't been -- so i don't think they regret it at all. they didn't support the law in the first place. fine, you do it. with -- >> if you don't want to be competitive, don't be a governor. that's what we governors do. now they're saying they want to punt it. it is the law of the land, we've said to the states we've got money for us, wee design it if we would like, but otherwise we'll have to do it for you. >> governor, it's really clear that those governors who have opted to do this, they're happy. california, new york, connecticut, maryland, district of columbia, they're very happy with it. >> kentucky. >> kentucky is doing a terrific job. they were succeeding in getting people covered. you know, the only reason there's opposition to it is because president obama supports

it. >> that's not simply not true. >> this was a conservative idea, create a marketplace, allow the marketplace -- >> and force people into it. >> and mandate it. we have to stop right now, grace-marie, the mandate came from the republicans in the '90s. you want it an insurance-based exchange. hell, i wanted a single payer. that's a system that's working all over the world. >> no, but -- >> this is the system you were beinging for. it's a private insurance companies running it. >> but they only conservative that i know of that supported the individual mandate and they have now repudiated is the heritage foundation. i never was for this. i knew where this was going to lead. it was going to lead to mandates, higher taxes. >> let's focus on democrats for a second, ron. we have a growing list who want the individual mandate delayed.

>> the folks who are desperate for the affordable care act, they will find a way to get the coverage they need. again, as we talked about, the folks we need to make the program work, young healthy people, might not sit through now is seems to me, if you want to incite a group of people to do something they're not inclined to do, the last thing you do is give them more time to think about it. it seems to me, delaying the mandate would be a very bad thing for obama. but where are you with all these democrats? >> what most of those members want is they want an extension of the enrollment period. and that may very well happen. this enrollment period, there's nothing magic about it. it started october 1, and it ends march 31. we've not even gone through 30 days of it. >> right. >> i think, first, this is going to get fixed fairly soon.

but i do not oppose at all, extending the enrollment period so that young adults can learn more about it. >> can hear more terrible stories of the rollout? that doesn't seem smart. >> all you're focusing on, s.e., in due difference, is that there's a computer problem. but the underlying, but the underlying, but the -- >> they can't get affordable health care. it's more than just the website. and now swrwe've got scores of folks pointing that out. >> s.e., the policies that are being changed are policies that are really swiss cheese policies. they have annual lifetime -- they've lot lifetime caps. they don't cover a whole bunch of services. and now when people get insurance, they know they are going to be protected. >> but there's some people -- >> this insurance for a young,

healthy man that you want to sign up for this insurance is going to cost up to 100% more than a policy that he could have bought in the private sector before, which he wasn't buying then. >> it was a lousy insurance policy. >> he wasn't buying it. many of these people are not going to apply -- >> and now we're going to make sure that when people buy an insurance policy, they are truly protected. >> listen. >> in terms of cost. you know, sometimes we focus on the premiums. for consumers, what's really important are the premiums, the deductibl deductibles, the co-pays. things that are not covered. >> but the -- >> really good insurance, people are actually going to say -- >> the premiums are trice as high. they're not going to get to the website. >> grace marie, if, if we delay, then the young healthy people aren't going to get in the pool. and the 30 million people with

pre-existing conditions -- >> you're agreeing with me. >> aren't going to get in the pool. now in massachusetts they kind of beta tested this. and what they found is during the first 30 days, only 123 people signed up. people don't sign up until they get to the deadline. >> even me, i found a policy that's $400 cheaper than the one i currently have and i haven't signed up yet. i'll do it later. so what's the concern? don't you think people will sign up by march 31st? >> but you're responsible. they are not going to change. it is still going to be twice as expensive for a young man that you want to enroll in this plan as it would have been before. they are only going to have to pay a $95 fine the first time. they're going to take it -- they're going to say -- >> that's like saying if you buy a car that works it's going to be twice as expensive than a car that doesn't work. that's absolutely absurd. we are now going to provide real

insurance for people. >> all right. stay here guys. stay here. stay here. it sounds like an impossible task. but we going to ask these two if they can agree on anything. we want you to weigh in on today's fire back question. in five years, how will obama care be viewed? reply now with successor -- s k successor failure. ♪ (train horn) vo: wherever our trains go, the economy comes to life. norfolk southern. one line, infinite possibilities.

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we're back with ron pollack and grace marie turner. is there anything we can agree on? >> the starting point of this law was to make sure that people who have pre-existing conditions are able to get insurance. and i think that we would agree that this is something that we absolutely must take care of. and also that the people who need coverage the most are the ones who know least about this. and finally, i'd say i think we probably agree that the saturday night live skit was really good. >> do you cosign all of that? >> i'll buy that. you know, i agree with grace marie. we want to help people with pre-existing conditions. and thankfully the affordable care act does that by saying you can't deny coverage due to a pre-existing condition. you can't charge a discriminatory premium due a pre-existing condition and you can't cut somebody off when they get sick. >> saturday night live was

terrific. >> and you all agree was governor schweitzer was a great fill-in host. weigh in on our fire back question. right now 61% of you think it will be viewed as a success. 39% say it will be viewed as a failure. >> wow. >> surprising. the debate continues on cnn.com/crossfire. from the right, i'm s.e. cupp. >> and from the left i'm allen schweitzer. >> erin burnett starts right now. america spying on its closest friends. more questions about which world leaders are targeted by the nsa, and why the president claims he knew nothing about it. plus a massive man hunt under wray tonight. prisoners off the run after taking an unusual escape