can tweet the show at we wes @cnnsitroom form we'll continue our special coverage tomorrow in "the situation room." i'm wolf blitzer in warble. "crossfire" with newt gingrich and van joan, starting right now. tonight on "crossfire", what have we learned about obama care? after a day of answers -- >> hold me accountable. >> questions. >> would you commit today, secretary to shut down the system and do an end-to-end security test? >> we're not in kansas anymore. >> and capacity operation. >> who is ultimately responsible? it is the president, correct? >> you clearly -- whatever. on the left, van jones. on the right newt gingrich. in "crossfire", congressman jan schakowsky, who supports obama care, and congressman tim murphy, who opposes it, obama

care, under fire tonight on "crossfire." welcome to "crossfire." i'm van jones on the left. >> i'm newt gingrich on the right. in the crossfire tonight representatives jan schakowsky and tim murphy. people seem surprised i've drawn a parallel between nixon and the dishonesty of this administration, but let's look at what happened in the last few days. a white house tweet saying, quote, nothing in obama care forces people out of their health care. that's patently not true. today the secretary testify health and human services said the obama care website hadn't crashed, which is so wrong it's painful. she also alleged she's barred by law from enrolling in obama care. mo are on that in a moment. cnn is it reporting the administration is pressuring insurance executives to keep quiet, which would be an illegal abuse of power, if it turns out to be true. which part of this does not

resemble some of what happened in 1973-'74, including a president whose operative explanation keeps changing. van -- >> nobody is losing their right to health care coverage. for the vast jon of people who have health care coverage that works, you can keep it. for the fewer than 5% of american that is buy insurance on your own, you will be getting a better deal. >> before -- let me just point out, this is the man who spent three years and thousands of references to no one will lose their health insurance. today for the first time, he began to modify that blanket commitment, but i suspect you don't totally agree. >> there's so much wrong on what you said, it will take the entire show to try to correct the record. i will say this. to even mention nixon in the middle of all this is to put the hype in hyperbole. i'm almost speechless, the idea that we've come to the point we

can't tell the difference between a glymphy website and high crimes and misdemeanors. we're going to fix this tonight. in the crossfire we have to house members. within jan schakowsky, and republican tim murphy from pennsylvania. first question to you. you, sir, are a psychologist and in addition to being a congress person. >> yes. >> isn't this evidence of some crazy derangement? have we now gotten to the point where we -- in the nation's capital, can no longer speak to each other rationally, make rational comparisons? don't you think peer hysteria taking over? >> there are a lot of concerns. >> do you think that nixon should be drug in do you think -- over a glitchy website? >> no, my concern is the president continued to say it. >> and then he burgled somebody?

>> the issue is you can't keep your health care plan. for many people that's a much greater concern, and i'm getting a letters from people who say my plan has been discontinued. that has been me deeply western. >> fair enough. here is my concern about where we are right now. the roll-out has been bumpy, this law is not perfect. usually we come together, try to fix these things as we go. we did that with medicare part d. why can't we do this now? why all the hysteria? i don't understand from your point of view, you're a good reasonable congress person, why aren't you leading for an upgrade of obama care to fix this rather than the grandstanding? >> i was on the committee when this bill went through. we didn't get a chance to have our amendments stick. they mysteriously disappeared on the way to the floor. we did try a number of things.

i certainly say there's a lot that should be done. the law as i said, is farce from what it should be. i think to a large extent that people can keep the plan, can keep the they can't even keep their doctor. i know from my statistic in pittsburgh, a lot of them will specifically be forbidden to be able to go to another plan. that's a dramatic problem for people to have that. we should fix those things. >> congressman, you were in the hearing today. i want you to watch for a second, this example of how complex and how difficult this is, even for the secretary of health and human services, this particular segment. >> why aren't you losing your health insurance? >> because i'm part of the federal employees -- >> you're in charge of this law, correct? why aren't you in the exchange? >> because i'm part of the federal employee -- >> why won't you go into the exchange? >> you're the architect of the whole program, you won't go

into -- >> i did not say that, sir. i think it's illegal. >> if it's legal, will you go in? >> here's the point i want to make. we spent a good bit of time checking this out. the fact is she's in medicare she's not -- she has the federal employee health benefit plan as part of her package, but she's also in medicare. the way the law was written, it gets very complicated at this point. you have a number of congress men and women who are old enough they're on medicare, and supposedly they can't be sold anything through the exchange if they're on medicare, even though they're not supposed to go into the exchange. doesn't it illustrate how complex this is when the secretary of health and human services couldn't sort out -- in terms of her own personal health, what her status was? doesn't that worry you a bit about trying to have the federal government watch 315 million people? >> this was a gotcha moment. this was an effort to, you know, just attack the secretary.

why aren't you in the plan? which is totally irrelevant, really, to obama care. you're right, it is complex, but the idea i think is for people like tim and myself to get together and try and make a plan that will lift the burden of preexisting conditions off of million of americans, put millions and millions who have waited some all their lives to get health care, to make it work. we could do this together. we did it with medicare part d, worked together, and we could do it now. >> but sure will you you understand the frustration that americans family, that somehow people in government aren't subjected to the same plan, and the frustration they feel when they could sign up for things. >> you know what, tim? i don't think people give a darn whether or not kathleen sebelius is in the plan. what they want to know is what's in it for me? and so i think making sure that

that question can be answered, and i think you would agree that -- well, we're going into the plan, right? i mean, members of congress. i think that is significant and important. >> sure. >> but i think more important to individuals is not that kind of back-and-forth, but rather how can i get the health care i need for myself and my family. >> but it is part of the frustration when -- it is a complicating factor, because she's in medicare, too. >> can i say something about the letters? >> sure. >> this is a blue cross/blue shield letter that went out in illinois, it says the new health care law. this means that blue cross/blue shield will no longer be available for renewal as of december 31st, 2013. it says you may find your premiums you lower due to a new kind of tax credit in the nationalplace, you may qualify for plans -- even though --

isn't available outside of marketplace, the health care law also guarantees that you can choose a new plan outside the marketplace, even if you have a preexisting condition. my point is these insurers either want to keep the people in their -- that work in their policy, or they want to tell them -- they tell them about what's available in the marketplace units if it's available. >> but they have to do that, because the grandfather part of the bill says, if you have a plan that continues on, but the law says they have to find different coverage -- >> better coverage. >> different coverage, whatever that is, for the 50-year-old woman who is writing to me, i'm not going to have any more children -- >> and i don't have a prostate, okay? >> that's fine. so for folks saying they're now going to pay more, because they're not the grandfathering option. that's a myth there, because if a plan changes its coverage, if a plan changes how much they're

charging, theres no grandfather option. that's what some people are saying. look, i can't afford to make this adjustment. the compassionate thing we ought to be saying is how do we help these people? >> i guess the question i would ask is, do you honestly believe the administration is open to any significant fixes? i mean -- the new word from democrats is we should work together, which i think is great, but that would actually imply that the many week lil toic -- i don't have a sen that any -- >> i have absolutely no doubt about it. there was the postponement of the mandate for some businesses. there's absolutely no question that if we were able to sit down, come up with agreeable change, that we could move those forward. >> well, you know, we're going to keep talking about this after this break, but you know, you

pointed to that letter. at the hearing we saw a lot of letters being waved around. people saying they were helped, republicans had letters say they were hurt by obama care. when we get back, i'm going to tell you why i think both sides would be smart to stop waving around letters. how are things with the new guy? all we do is go out to dinner. that's it? i mean, he picks up the tab every time, which is great...what? he's using you. he probably has a citi thankyou card and gets 2x the points at restaurants. so he's just racking up points with me. some people... ugh! no, i've got it. the citi thankyou preferred card. now earn 2x the points on dining out and entertainment, with no annual fee.to apply, go to citi.com/thankyoucards

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welcome back. in the crossfire tonight, representatives jan schakowsky and tim murphy. we've been debating obama care. in my view, both sides need to be very careful right now. democrats were passionate about defending the losers, the people getting denied, duped and dumped by the big insurance companies. that passion is what ultimately won the today, but today you've got a lot of democrats tonely

tone-deaf from hearing complains from people who feel like they're the losers in the new system. that is not smart. we've got to show more compassion for people who will have to buy different plans. their fear and their pain is real. at the same time, the gop was totally indifferent to the pain of all the people who were losers in the old system. now they seem totally indifferent. that's not smart, either, for them. the democrats show a lot more concern for people, even if their numbers are few, who fear they might be losing ground. the gop should be willing and courageous enough to celebrate for the millions who are clear winners under obama care. so, to you, i think you are missing a huge opportunity here to actually celebrate with women in this country. your party has a tough problem with women. women are wincers under obama care. people with preexisting conditions are winners under obama care. you rush past them to demagogue, from my point of view, i see

your party demagoguing. >> absolutely. look, i have a daughter and wife who, you know, i want to make sure, as my daughter is growing and on her own, that she has these opportunities. absolutely. i've always feld, even as a state senator, i understand the important of women having access to care. absolutely true. but what about the other 20,700 pages of the bill? what happened is sometimes we build such a massive government bureaucracy it's hard to do the very things you're saying. we need to look at the compassion in things to help people, maybe sure they have the options out there. what is happening is the argument taking place is how the government is running this. i'm concerned it's going to trample over the needs of the people who need help. >> good enough, but part of the thing i think people are not

understanding, people are starting to get some of these letters. it seems like -- my understanding is before obama care now, it was an awful system, only 17% of people on the individual market were able to keep their plans in the first place. you have the employ system, but for the people in the individual market, wild, wild west, only 17% of those people before obama care could keep their individual plans. now, we're hearing from you guys as if obama care is the cause of something. if people are being hurt, we can work together to fix it. don't you think the old system had a bunch of losers? >> first of all, be law they can't deny people by care. under hipaa laws, there had to be an offer of something else. but there's a difference here. this is smp that you brought up.

some are getting discontinuation letters saying you're not going to get it. some people will be able to go on the exchange and get a better deal, because they'll have a subsidy or something else because of their income. that part is new. the two groups are not exactly the same. some people here will not be able to be in -- so that's a concern, too. we're going to find a big chunk of people, and i don't seize an answer yet. >> here's the then. we need a baseline understanding that obama care is here to say. there's been a 3 1/2 year relentless campaign to defend, to repeal, to get rid of it. if we can all just agree, this is the law of the land, now how do we go forward? i haven't seen that yet. >> i find this amazing. every amendment we offered to try to modify -- a lot of them were improving amendments, we are either voted off on are or

when the bill appeared, it disappeared. that's old history. now we say what can we do now? i think you would, too, because i know you carry deeply, saying where do we go now? what are the parts to see that will merge? i think we'll see this whole thing with the website miss, and everybody agrees, it's it's a met. people will have questions about action and price. i can't see the doctor i want toss or -- we can expect the waves. but the question is, will we be able to come up with proposals that will make it through committee, make it through the floor, through the senate? i don't know yet. >> this is a great thing, that being a woman is no longer a preexisting condition. that is absolutely true.

>> if you can just agree to postpone that argument, that is to say that -- that they don't like obama care. you don't have to give up -- it is currently the. >> exactly. surrender the idea that obama care is going to go away. >> but i think -- my question is -- >> if you heard the hearing today, there wasn't one person who said why don't we sit down, and here's a problem that we ought to continue to absorb -- >> so if we did -- >> and tim and i. to work on. tim and i, i would love to see

that. if people could agree to suspend the ultimate fight and let's just say, what can we do right now to fix this. we'll have millions of people who will be in a mess in january. and no one wants to talk about delay. and somebody better figure out a clever answer. this may be, from your perspective, negative. it is part of the same problem. >> okay. cnn has reported that the white house is actively pressuring insurance companies to not say anything. i think this is part of the same challenge, you cannot figure out what's wrong with the website. you can't figure out what the real internals are in materials of who is signing up and not signing up. we can't figure out what's going wrong. the very people who understand the industry are being told, don't say anything. somehow, doesn't it bother you that there is so little information available that you could then build a rational nonconfrontational effort? >> there were a lot of questions about that.

and that i know that information will be forthcoming. the idea that the obama administration is pressuring insurance coil. we saw an insurance executive on the weekend talk shows. that's just nonsense. i do want to say that the republicans sent a letter. it was mitch mcconnell and i can't remember who else to the nfl, to all the sports teams saying, do not promote the affordable health care. so it happens. that was actually troofl i have a copy of that letter. >> if you don't mine, stay here. next we're going on cease fire. is there anything the of two you can agree on in i'm pretty optimistic tonight. we want you at home to weigh in on the fireback question. do you accept kathleen sebelius' apology over the obama care website debacle? tweet yes or no. i'm only in my 60's.

i've got a nice long life ahead.

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we're back with representatives jan and tim murphy. let's call a cease fire. is there anything we can agree on? jan? >> you know, tim is a psychologist. and obviously, mental health issues cross over into so many other things, even the issue of gun violence. we talk about the need for mental health services. i think this is something that is desperately needed for our soldiers, our kids, and i think that's something that we can

work on. >> i think that's where i've been work w a number democrats and republicans on this. i would love to work with you, too. in some areas, mental health is a big part of health care and we have to deal with this. we owe it to the families of newtown, to the gabby gifds, to any american, the 11 million americans with mental illness, those who have no treatment at all. >> that could be a very positive thing. >> if you start working on that, maybe you build momentum on some other thing that have to get done in terms of the fixes on obama care. >> that's a given. we'll to have work together on those fixes. they'll to have come. >> let me say thank you to representatives. go to facebook or twitter to weigh in on our fireback question. do you accept secretary sebelius's apology over the obama care website debacle in 42% of you say yes.

58% say no. >> the debate will continue online at cnn.com/crossfire as well as on facebook and twitter. from the left i'm dan jones. >> from the right i'm newt gingrich. erin burnett "outfront" starts right now. "outfront" next. lawmaker on the attack. >> who is responsible for overseeing this project? is it you or your designee? >> let me be clear. i'm not pointing fingers. >> sebelius in the hot seat. who took the blame? >> we want to find the truth. >> more allegations against the nsa. how do other countries spy on americans? a special report. and a daughter turns on her father. >> the valium, and