fairy tale i've ever seen. >> jesse jackson won south carolina twice, and he ran a good campaign, and senator oembalma has run a good campaign. i personally believe if it -- the president should honor the commitment the federal government made. >> van, show are just three of bill clinton's not so helpful moments. i'm calling bill clinton, warren and obama the tricky triangle which my fellow nascar fans will get. >> we call them global icons, with this much genius. >> but only one of them can be president. >> true, and her name will be hillary clinton. >> we've got donna brazil. welcome to you both.

everybody seems to be terrified of hillary clinton. one was saying you have ton an outsider to be a serious presidential candidate remember she was going to be invince able last time, it turns out she wasn't. on the republican side, you can't play in the game. i think an outsider will help, but not the only factor. >> but really, seriously, right now it looks like the republican party, despite all the stuff about obama care, very unpopular. i don't see a lot of great ideas. how would you stop hillary clinton? i don't think -- >> there's good case studies around a how republicans win in swing or even blue areas. go to wisconsin, the home of progressive politics from the left, and scott walker serving

as governor. go to the blue state of arizona, or new mexico -- >> you're not intimidated? you're not impressed? >> of course. she's going to be formidable. she would be a formidable candidate, but there are obvious case studies where republicans do well, and we can learn from that and we should. >> donna, today's democratic party is very different from the one that hillary's husband presided over in the '90s. he was praised for welfare reform, lowering abortion rates. you know, don't ask/don't tell. it's a different party, and even when hillary last ran for president, you were allowed to be a democrat. so is enough change that she's going to have to run as a progressive now? >> no, look, what bill clinton did back in the 1990s was expand the democratic party. the party was no longer a regional party, it became a

national party, a party that could -- >> because he moved it to the center? >> because he moved it where the mainstream of america was, where the left and right could actually get together and get things done. hillary clinton, if she decides to run will be a formidable candidate, because i think like bill clinton, she has the ability to reach out to some of the republicans who might be scared off by a party that's gone so far right that they can't make another turn. she might be able to broaden the democratic coalition and build upon that. >> you don't think elizabeth warren will pull her left. >> elizabeth warren is an outstanding senator if she decides to run. we have a good healthy bench. she would be a. amy clo buch article, we have great women and great men. martin o'malley.

>> let me ask you a question. i think these guys will try to go back and try to relitigate bill clinton. obviously we were mad at him for a while, for those of us in -- but now he's the big dog, we like him. are you worried, though, about bill clinton anyway? >> well, of course. i mean, look, we run bill clinton today as if he's a 23-year-old guy. he's not, so i worry about his health, of course. although he's in good health. but there's no question that hillary clinton is going to run as her own person. like elvis, like tupac, she's on oprah, everybody knows hillary. this is the son of a truck driver. i worked for a guy -- dick gephardt, who was the son of a truck driver, but look at your resume, the kind of things you accomplished back in minnesota. that doesn't help you with today's republican party. they want someone who is an isolationist, so far to the

right they may not be able to get people in the middle as you've been able to do. >> donna, with your many years of experience, you know these battles are a combination of purity and electability. at the base level parties like purity until they keep getting their butt kicked, and all of a sudden then they factor in electability. maybe it's time to sprinkle in some electability. and to hillary and bill, look, they obviously are iconic figures in american politics, but presidential elections tend to be mostly about the future. it's very rare that it gets decided about reminiscing about the past. i think bill, of course, will loom large, as inevitably he always does, but it won't be a referendum -- >> and we're going to get to the republican prognosticating in a minute, but let's stick with the democrats for a minute. one of the biggest critiques is that he distanced himself a little too much from bill clinton. governor pawlenty, do you think hillary will have to do the

same? can she effectively distance herself from the president on some of the worst aspects of his report without -- >> it's kind of analogous to trying to -- it's not exactly that, she was secretary of the state and left early, but clearly the president is not having a high watermark in his administration. if fatigue sets in, there could be a fatigue factor that could hurt. that being said, hillary is her own person. she has her own record, but there will be a hangover, fatigue effects. >> and we used bill clinton strategically. his numbers, and -- very, very eye, but in swing states, he was a little underwater, so we used him strategically. not as much as he wanted to be used. as you know, he believes in the 50-state strategy, and so do i. >> i think there's also a bit of

anti-monarchy view. how many families do we have in american politics where, you know, you hear the son or daughter of somebody famous, and then you become a senator and the like. there's a chunk of the country who's going to say, enough of this. >> but this is a woman. >> that's why i think suzanna martinez, kellie ayotte -- >> should gender be a factor? does that represent the change candidate, just the fact she's a woman? >> most people would say, look, we want to make the decision on merit, but obviously there's a huge magnetic quality to have been the first woman vice president or president. that's a big thing. >> let me ask you a question. you were part of a primary process, a lot of people feel like hillary might just romp to the nomination. people thought romney suffered by going through --

>> do you think. >> let's keep in mind that nearly 3 years out, they are littered with people who are inevitable. >> it will be -- >> the one person we're not talking about is joe biden. how miffed would you be if you were the sitting vice president for two terms, you ran for president yourself twice, you were brought in for your experience, he is an afterthought. why why is that? >> because hillary clinton came this close, very, very close to becoming the nominee of the democratic party. i think because of that, and because so many people went out there and voted for her, that there's still this kunger.

>> sometimes it's easy to overlook some great people. >> he's the vp, overlooking the vp. enough about the democrats, i want to talk about the republicans now. i am sure that you have noticed today's very public fight between liz and mary cheney. when we get back, i'm going to ask governor pawlenty, whatever happened to the new welcoming republican party?

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on the autopsy, because that idea is dead, dead, dead. republicans you now against protecting gays and lesbians, discrimination on the job. they're against equal bay for women, they're gets the voting rights act. they won't even vote on immigration, and now the cheney family feud. first, listen to senate candidate liz cheney on fox news sunday. >> your sister mary, who is married to a woman put out this post. she had, for the record, i love my sister, you, but she is dead wrong. >> listen, i love mary very much, i love her family very much, this is just an issue on which we disagree. >> that's just ugly. then you have the poor parents, putting out this statement -- this is an issue we have dealt with privately for many years and are pained to see it become public. well, i'm going to talk to you, govern governor. the problems with the republican

party is having, including people and welcoming people, are not private, they are out in the public. it seems to me that all of the things that were said a years ago about doing things to pock more inclusive have gone out the woipt. instead they seem tore hoping that a glitchy website and cancellation notices will give them the a elects. how is that a wins strategy? >> the point is well taken. you can't be a george govern been part and loose those categories. as it relates to the gale and lesbian rights issues, the divide reflects the divide in the country, so it's something i'm sure that's very personal for them and they have a split view. if you have a look at people under 40, the views toward those issues are changing pretty dramically. >> but i mean, i don't want you to get off that easily.

look, ordinarily, you have this wing of the republican party, forcing candies to take extreme positions, and usually that hurts republicans in a general election. now you're seeing it hurting people with their own family members. at what point do republicans say, listen, we just have to join all the -- all the trend lines are moving in favor of equality and inclusion. i just don't understand. at some point you have to stand up and tell people to back off and let people enjoy this. >> keep in mind the republican party is not a monolith. it's a coalition of groups defense conservatives, and -- so it's one people -- it's a bunch of pieces. we're in tough shape political, so what the heck.

fill in the blank, that's just not a principal way to do it. look at the people that succeed in maintaining their conviction shuns? the lesson is you can be conservative but you can't be a jerk. >> chris christie seems to be a front-runner if not the front-runner but the concern is he can't survive the primary. and he's not sellable in red states. i think this, and i'll put this to both of you and lay it out. i think this represents the problem for my party, the republican party. we have decided to judge each other on a sliding horizontal scale of conservativeness, who is too moderate? who is too extreme? and either end of that makes you somehow untrust worthy. i don't think that's right, as governor pawlenty pointed out, our intellectual diversity is something to celebrate. we need to be inclusive.

where we do need to be more judicious is on effective messaging. witch be judging on a sliding vertical scale on effectives in. i think we all know who they are. can we get a national presidential election, or even 2014, without these purity tests that really ruin the republican party. >> if i had to manage a republican campaign the day, i would try to find something who was a moderate, but yet his principal on a number of issues that -- and whether it's balancing the budget or, you know, making sure that we have job creation, i don't know what the republicans stand for anymore. it's like ben ant jerry's and papa john's with all different toppings, but you don't get a good sense to what the republicans are doing on capitol

hill. you know from some of the information across the country, what they're doing in state houses, but you have no clue to what they're fighting for at the national level. i think that's the problem. >> the answer is republicans should focus on meat and potato, bread and butter issues. how do i pay my mortgage? if you don't like obama care, by the way, am i going to have a job? is the economy going to be growing or shrinking? you can't win with nothing. >> and told you what the problem is. if you're attacking teachers, and what you're seeing as anti-gale and anti-inclusion, it's not a party with a welcome matt. >> with all due respect, donna, let's look at antiteaching. the republicans would say, look, i don't think your education future should depend on what number of a lottery ball comes out. your able to go to a good school

shouldn't depend on what zip code you happen to be born in, whether there's a decent school there or not. the fact is, with all due respects >> but that's an issue, and that's the way we need to talk. >> right now, it sounds great. i want to go back to what s.e. was saying. she says you have this horizontal competition. there's this thing around communication. who do you think in the republican party can communicate these awful values? >> we have great -- we haven't talked about marco rubio. a gifted communicator. chris christie is a tremendous communicator. >> those are your two? >> those are examples. to their credit, think are

passionate and committed. these are folks who are not interested in necessarily compromise. >> i have another purity test that i'm concerned about. can i get -- >> chris christie is authentic and charismatic, but he opposed ragz the minimum wage in his state and voters decided they wanted to raise the minimum wage. >> i can agree with -- >> public education has been the great equalizer, but when you attack teachers, i have a so many members of my family who are educators who believe, who go into the classroom every day. i'm a part-time educator. but often republicans come across as anti-teacher. and that's the issue. >> this is so important. it's not going to work as a country, if we have 15 to 30% of our population underskilled and

unable to access the economy. and the ticket to that is education. skb >> i agree. >> they work in a 1940s industrial unionized system. not the apple world, but something from the '40s and '50s. >> i'm glad you are not running for president because you sound great. >> if only. stay here. next, the final question for each of our guests. we also want you at home to weigh in on today's fire back question. would you vote for a 2016 presidential candidate without experience in washington? tweet yes or no. we'll have the results after the break. ♪

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we're back with donna brazile and tim pawlenty. we have a lot of people we talked about tonight. if hillary doesn't run, which i think is unlikely, but if hillary doesn't run, then who's your candidate on the left? >> there's no question, if she decides not to run, joe biden, elizabeth warren. i'm vice chair, i cannot take a position, but i would love to

see a woman in the white house. my money would still stay on hillary. but if joe biden, i got to tell you, he's been a champion to women's equality. >> that's good. scott walker came out and said he cannot get the republican nomination unless you're an outsider. that means no to your marco rubio, no to paul ryan, no to a whole bunch of your superstars. >> people are sick of washington, d.c. and the gridlock and dysfunction, let's say hypothetically, iran bombs israel, are you going to be looking for someone with international experience? of course. things could change. >> between a ted cruz and a chris christie? that hypothetical, where are

you? >> well, i haven't supported a candidate yet. john kasich's interested. scott walker. paul ryan. bobby jindal, nikki hailey. >> got to run the clock out. cruz/christie, come on. >> i think christie would be a stronger candidate. no question in my mind. >> it seems like everybody's excited about chris christie and hillary clinton. >> i'm mike pence. you heard it here. >> we should mention amy -- >> now we're just naming everyone. thanks to donna brazile and tim pawlen pawlenty. >> you can also weigh in on our fire back question. would you vote for for a 2016

presidential candidate who did not have peerns in washington? from the left, i'm van jones. from the right, i ' am s.e. cup. out front next, george zimmerman arrested and charged. >> he had broken a table and at one point pointed a long-barrelled shotgun at her. and toronto's crack-smoking mayor acts out again and again. >> i didn't push her. plus lady gaga's revelation. >> i was speaking up to 15 to 20 marijuana cigarettes a day with no tobacco. let's go out front. good evening, everyone