we start with toronto's crack smoking mayor, rob ford. tonight another day of antics including storming through the city council chamber, the council stripped him of most of his powers this afternoon. he calls it a coup d'etat. here's the answer he got.

>> no, no, i didn't say that. you're wrong. you're wrong. they said do you smoke crack and are you a crack addict? >> no. have i? yes, i have. so that's -- i didn't lie. i don't smoke crack. i haven't smoked crack in over a year. >> that's semantics. >> joining us tonight, andrew sullivan. anna navarro. and robin, the rob ford we saw

in that interview is that the rob ford you know so well? >> you are getting a chance to see vintage rob ford. after he was elected mayor he calmed down. his temper was even keel and in contrast to his ten years as a counsellor. >> how did you find him this week? the fact he is arguing it is just semantics. no reporter asked me the right question. >> typical media, you guys with your questions there. but to your point, i always used to brag i saw guns and roses play and now i've seen rob ford live. when you see his mood swings in person it's a staggering thing. that talking point about i never lied about it, he was ready to jump on that. he had misheard my question which was doesn't smoking crack in the first place indicate a huge lack in judgment when you

are the leader of a city? but he -- it's this mixture of entitlement and a sense that everyone else is a hypocrite because everyone's getting hammered and i'm just a man of the people. we all have feet of clay. it was fascinating. >> i can throw several recordings of us asking him directly have you ever smoked crack before? that's just a complete lie. >> he is saying everyone was saying do you smoke crack now? >> that is not true. i have several recordings on my phone as recently as two weeks ago. >> is that like a ring tone? >> have you ever smoked crack before? >> robin, certainly a lot of people ask, how does a guy like this get elected mayor? look at him. >> this doesn't look like canada.

but it's canadian in a sense we are much more uncomfortable reporting on people's personal lives. and we have strict information laws. you call the police and they don't have to tell you they have been to the house unless they lay charges. >> this not something that happened recently. how long do you think this has been going on? >> i can say from our reporting. that we have been reporting on his behavior for a year and a half. i wrote about domestic incidents with his wife in 2011. a domestic assault in 2008 that was dropped because of inconsistencies in his story. >> what do you think is going on below the surface? what is this guy's real problem? is he bi-polar? is he self medicating for untreated mood disorder? what is going on with him? your view?

>> i can have spoken with numerous people who have worked closely with him who say he has a substance issue. they have never seen him drinking at work but think he has been drunk at work. he has denied this. but the police are following him around and they will find mickeys of vodka in the trash. there are handoffs with close friends who are drug dealers or alleged drug dealers who are on charges right now. i think a lot of the signs point to a substance issue and how long that is going on. >> who voted for him? who is his base? who put him there? >> they call themselves ford nation. it's a tea party north that is 20% of the city. it doesn't matter what he does, they are going to support him. and he convinced 27% of the city that he is a guy to watch the bottom line.

and he did run the best campaign. he was the only one with a clear message. whether he can win again, i don't know. >> i had the same question as you. how does this guy win? i met his runner up. george smitherman who ran on the health ministry who oversaw the rollout of e-health. the same contractor that healthcare.gov said. and rob ford was on message. we are going to end the gravy train and stop the spending. >> subways. >> and the ironic thing when smitherman admitted to being addicted to party drugs in the

'90s ford nation would question his fitness to lead. >> i was a huge fan of chris farley. i have never missed him as much -- >> chris farley tweeted saying my brother would do an amazing imitation. but just a quick refresher of some of the wild comments. >> i do not use crack cocaine nor am i an addict. >> yes, i have smoked crack cocaine. but no -- do i? am i an addict? no. have i tried it, probably in one of my drunken stupors. >> have you -- >> i'm not perfect. i don't know if you have ever had a drink and got behind the wheel. i will do a drug test and alcohol test right now. >> i wanted to [ bleep ] i have never said that in my life to her.

>> there's nothing else to say, guys. i really -- "f"ed up. and that's it. >> so what happens now? does he remain in office? >> he rides it out. he's really effective at looking like the victim. a lot of the stuff you've seen i think he looks like he is deliberately picking fights with the media. the media does not look great chasing him around. he will keep building that they're out to get me. i'm an average joe guy -- >> your hatred makes me stronger. >> what are his approval ratings? >> there are two polls, one is 40% and one is 45%. that is where he has been most of the time. >> he is doing better than obama. >> for a mayor of toronto it should be higher. when he was elected he was at 60%.

they haven't moved a lot with the crack allegations. >> robin thank you very much. bizarre and fascinating interview to watch. coming up next, oprah winfrey started a conversation about president obama and whether he is being disrespected because of his race. we'll be right back. [ male announcer ] what if a small company

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welcome back to the show. you can agree or disagree with president obama. his popularity has gone up and down over the years. oprah winfrey was talking about the antipathy that some have for the presidency she says because of race. >> just the level of disrespect when the senator yelled out you're a liar. remember that? yeah, i think that there's a level of disrespect for the office that occurs and that occurs in some cases and maybe even many cases because he's african-american. >> she referenced in particular joe wilson's outburst. his exact words, you lie. charles, what do you make of

what oprah said? >> it's an interesting -- i think she taps into something that a lot of people believe although very few people can measure it and have little evidence of it. she was responding to a question. she wasn't going on to say i have something to get off my chest. the questioner asked her do you believe he is treated in some way different because he is african-american and that is her belief. i think that is a very real sentiment in public. and i think trying to figure out to what degree that is true or not both for obama supporters and for those who oppose him has subsumed a lot of the energy and discussion about his presidency. a lot of people point to high levels of african-americans voting for barack obama although they vote democratic regardless

who is at the top of the ticket. and there have been other black people on the ticket who did not get that level of vote. just go ask jesse jackson. but on the other side, people look at a lot of kind of things that you get anecdotally, the nastiness. we have that because a lot of our politics is filtered through multimedia and you get to see how -- >> do you think race is a part of this. >> i think you would be crazy to think that it has nothing to do with it. the view among some tea party is he is only ever speak with a teleprompter. what on earth is that? >> isn't that what people said about reagan. >> reagan knew how to -- reagan knew how to use a teleprompter and how to act. he was terrific. i think it was interesting she said it to the bbc.

almost ubiquitous opinion around the world when they see obama they say why this intense opposition from the get go? and they know the other presidents have had this. but there's a level they can't explain. >> it's worse than bill clinton? they tried to impeach bill clinton. jesse helms said he better watch out if he comes to north carolina. we had another democratic president who had more serious question of his legitimacy of his office. >> the first black president. >> maybe? >> why do you think that stuck? >> it's -- look, i think the american politics has been racialized forever. even if you have a white democrat. it didn't start with obama. >> but you are not absolving

people and say it's not a contributing factor. >> of course it is. but it precedes obama. >> is there racism in america today? yes. one of the things i like about what oprah did is talk about the progress that has been made in america. she acknowledged that there is still a problem. but i think that it is a manifestation of where we are as a country in general. the attacks, the personal attacks, the virulent attacks that are going on in our political spheres against each other, against partisans, within our own party are more disrespectful than they have been in the past. >> is that true? >> politics has been ugly in this country for a long time. maybe in the '50s and '60s it -- i don't know if there was ever a golden age. let me say one thing about what oprah said which i think feels off to me. it has to the with the timing.

what's going on now, what the obama presidency is subsumed by is this health care disaster. it may turn out to be different. that's not about race. that's not about criticism for him. this is a self inflicted wound in this administration. >> she was flogging a -- >> one reason she -- i don't think she brought it up on her own. but it feels off to me to be discussing it now because i don't think the criticism he's getting now is because he's black it's because he has a big problem. >> i think you linking those two things is a bigger problem. i think there is no wrong time to discuss this. we try to figure out when is the right time to have conversations around this subject. i don't think there is a wrong time. you have continual conversations where people don't try to

overreach and try to say all of one group is feeling one way. >> is there a discussion you can prove definitively one way or another? >> i think that what happens is with every civil rights movement you get past the easy part. it really takes so much to do which is the legal part. you have really crystal things you are fighting against. it is written into the code of law. the women's rights movement had the same thing. the gay rights movement is having that as we speak. biases become very hard to detect. and you can only look at the macro level. >> if you are a tea party republican you will say this, oprah winfrey is saying that barack obama can't cut a break in this country? you have one of the most powerful media figures in the world. only in america did that happen.

we had a black president. only in america. we have come a huge amount of way here. one of the reasons some of us want to live here is because of that. europeans have never elected a black prime minister. to say it cannot possibly exist is wrong. but i think to be as specific as she was in this particular moment, i think you're right -- >> but overcoming -- >> i think the best evidence we have of the degree of racial hostility is the high percentage of americans who say they believe obama is muslim and born outside of the united states. those are not traditional racist views. they are views that he is foreign and not american. i think part of the anxiety is that he is a symbol of a new kind of america, more cosmopolitan. he is a child of the post 1965 immigration that transformed the united states. and a lot of the anxieties are being expressed here.

>> why the timing on this also. oprah was out there promoting "the butler" this which is a movie about a black man who was at the white house from the 1920s until he passed away and saw obama become president. it was in that context. what she is saying is -- there's a great disrespect and a great level of disrespect. is some of that due to racism? yes. is all of it -- >> one thing -- >> one of the reasons -- >> i have to say this. overcoming barriers is not the same as the removal of barriers. and the idea that people who are successful cannot at the same time be successful and say i have had to overcome a lot to get there is a problem in the statement you made earlier. >> the next topic on the table, the public family feud waged by dick cheney's daughters over same-sex marriage. we'll be right back.

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by the looks of it the holidays may be bumpy with the cheney family. it all began sunday when liz cheney said she does not support same-sex marriage. >> is it an issue that has to be left up to the states. >> your sister, mary who is married to a woman, put out this

post. she said, for the record, i love my sister, you, but she is dead wrong on the issue of marriage. >> listen, i love mary very much and her family very much. this is an issue on which we disagree. >> mary and her wife were watching and fired back on facebook. mary wrote, this is not an issue on which we disagree, you're just wrong and on the wrong side of history. when mary and i got married in 2012 she didn't hesitate to tell us how happy she was for us. to have her say she does not support our right to marry is offensive to say the least. >> and discuss and lynn cheney defend their daughter, liz. compassion is called for even when there is a disagreement about such a fundamental matter and liz's many kindnesses

shouldn't be used to distort her position. are you surprised by this spat? >> i am surprised how public this has become. i think it shows you two things. you can talk about political matters in an abstract way. but when it comes to a family something like someone's marriage becomes nonnegotiable as a matter of respect. and for her to campaign to deny your sister the very institution that she believes in, the very marriage that she has cannot but kick mary in the gut. >> is it hypocritical. if she went to the wedding and was loving and didn't say anything negative is it hypocritical to campaign against her? >> she showed respect to her sister's marriage. the thing i think -- one of the

things we talk about in the program is how much the country is changing. it's not changing that much in wyoming. what started this controversy is that the incumbent senator ran the most repulsive ad that criticized liz cheney for saying she didn't think it was wrong for the state department to recognize same-sex marriage. this very bland thing. and he thought this would get votes in wyoming. and it may well but it's think about that and how reactionary and backwards that is. and we all sit here on west 58th street. it's not -- >> i want to disagree. i don't think you can respect somebody to whom you want to deny the most basic right. you can respect an african-american but not want

them to have the right to marry a white person. this is fundamentally an issue of respect. what is great about this is this is how things are changing. this is the right wing's line for a couple of years. we happen to disagree about these issues but we love you and respect you and feel compassion. if you don't accept people have basic rights as other people, you don't respect them. >> but to counter that argument, mary cheney was out there campaigning for her father's administration which had the defense of marriage act. >> but that was then and this is now. >> but listen, just a year and a half ago, barack obama was against gay marriage. it wasn't until shortly before the election he came out for it and we have seen this shift politically. i want to point out i think there is a movement in the republican party. what? last week, there was a vote in the senate that got ten republican senate votes. that would not have had that

same vote result a year or six months ago. >> 49 votes in the senate about 15 years ago. >> but not ten republicans. >> but what is interesting to me, anna, is this is a story about republican elites and the republican base. i know a lot of republican elites. i lived in washington a long time and tended to be more right of center. many of them are totally fine but they exist in a party where they are catering to some people who are upset and frightened by gay people. at some point you have to decide which side of this you're on. i want to say one thing about wyoming, however. i think is it a libertarian kind of place and this enzi thing is a cheap shot. >> enzi is ahead 50 points in the polls. >> 58 points. >> whatever he is doing is working pretty well. i don't know if it is all about gay marriage.

carpet bagging probably has something to do with it. but we have to be careful about assuming that the country is changing as fast as we think it is. >> it's changing. but it's not all the way there yet. >> some states are changing faster than others. some people have more gay people in their lives and that leads to change. i think this is sad. this kind of public fight, internal fight of a family coming out into the public this way is frankly, sad. and it's also counter productive for liz cheney. a lot of people in wyoming and republican primary voters in wyoming may oppose gay marriage but they don't like family drama either. being embroiled to this reality show thing we are seeing played out on national tv is not good for a single campaign. >> a question i have watching this drama play out, do you think that liz cheney doesn't

approve of same-sex marriage or she pandering to the elect. >> one of the sad things is how the parents responded. dick cheney, one of the few things he did is he said i disagree with george w. bush. i don't have a problem with gay marriage. and now, basically forced to make a decision between his one daughter's basic dignity and respect and his other daughter's senate race in wyoming he chooses the latter. >> he parsed his words very carefully. if there is something about the cheneys, they have loved their daughters. and support both of their daughters. this has to be painful for them. i think we have to have a bit of sympathy for the family it is playing out this way. and it's only because the social issue has changed. today gays and lesbians are saying don't tread on me and are

not looking the other way. it used to not be that way. i think mary cheney has every right to feel offended. it is not hypocritical maybe. but it is hard to reconcile how you can love somebody but say they are not entitled to the same rights as you. that is a complete conflict and difficult to reconcile and understand for a sister, certainly. >> i think this is best suited to a family. this is uniting them and splitting them. my family has members who oppose my marriage and those who support it. they are not actively campaign against my marriage publicly. that's the issue. >> we have to take a break. when we come back, alec baldwin is insisting he did not use a gay slur against the paparazzi.

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welcome back. alec baldwin is trying to explain his way out of a pr crisis. his anger issues are well known. he was caught on camera screaming what sounded like an antigay slur at paparazzi outside his apartment last week. you can decide what you hear. we are bleeping some of the profanity. >> get away from my wife and baby with the camera. [ bleep ] you want that in. what language you want it in? >> alec, come on, let's go. >> get away from my kid with the camera. you know what's going to happen to you, don't you? come on! [ bleep ] [ bleep ].

>> a tweet claims that he said fathead. and he said what word is said after the other choice word that started with a "c" and ends with sucking. but i can assure you that a direct homophobic slur is not stated. >> he is the crusader and you're the gay sheriff according to baldwin. >> when you use that term to put a person down you are thinking of the worst thing you can say to demean and debase them in public in front of you. and that is, i'm afraid a textbook case of being homophobic.

it's the most homophobic thing you can do to yell at a human being to try to put them down in public. >> he said he didn't use that word but it's the first word he used is obviously to use it against another guy is clearly an -- >> and this isn't the first time. he tweeted about this -- i must say, the paparazzi are horrifying but when you say about another gay journalist you want to stick your boot up their backside -- >> he said about a uk journalist i'm going to find you george stark -- >> it's disgusting bullying and telling that person they are inferior human being because they're gay. i'm sorry.

look i'm in favor of letting anyone say what they want. i'm not a thought police guy. but i don't think you can say that in public and claim you are pro gay or a liberal progressive. if a conservative had said that they would be finished. >> and i've tweeted about this before, my point is anyone can say anything they want. if he wants to yell -- but don't lie about it afterwards and claim you didn't know it is an antigay slur. if you attain that great age and you don't know that calling a guy that is an antigay reference

or calling someone that whether you say it or not that is just a lie for him to say i was informed of this afterwards. >> i have a question about the whole scenario. this may be an inquiry into baldwin's psyche. it is true in his public statements and politics he is very pro gay rights and same-sex marriage. but at the same time he has this weird obvious hostility to gay people in moments of anger. what is the juxtaposition? >> it is political correctness when he can control it. when he loses control of his anger he goes into the real mode and this is what comes out. >> but why lie about it afterwards? it implies that everyone is so stupid -- >> how can you say -- >> i want to say, i came of age at a time when homophobia was accepted.

i bear that inside of me. i struggle against it and make sure it is not transmitted to the next-generation. one generation doesn't transmit it to its children. that's how anti-semitism died in the united states. it became socially unacceptable. the older generation had those feelings but they didn't pass it on to their children. if alec baldwin would say that, then i think we could have a useful conversation. >> it's reminiscent of what paula deen said. >> she had her career destroyed over a lawsuit that ultimately was dismissed and she admitted to using a word. if he had yelled that or an antijewish slur, it would be over. but the "f" word is a word kids are called in school every day.

teachers often do nothing about it. coaches -- the rutgers coach was calling his players that for years and no one did anything about it. >> and it's important to know that it is all laced with a threat of violence. >> right. >> all of these instances are about i'm going to get you. >> and i want all my twitter followers to get you too. that's what he did to this british reporter who is probably a snide and not nice person -- >> but you write in your column they are free to say whatever they want in this country. it's one of our rights. but we also as consumers are free to make choices of what we watch and what movies we go to, what commercials and vendors we use. he is in commercials. if people are offended we have a way to change it. >> what i find worrying about what jeffrey said is you can sometimes use your political position in favor of gay rights to just -- to get away with this stuff. so that you're actually -- the gay community needs to say we

don't need you, alec baldwin, any more. >> and then he brings out his gay hairdresser to defend him? i thought that was a joke. >> honest to god. >> and this hairdresser who is like the gays love him because they love drama. >> it's so painful stereo typing. now, look, we need to -- we don't need to divide about this but talk about it and understand it. i'm a sinner too. i have -- we all have feelings that we're not proud of. but we do our best to restrain them and we don't threaten them with violence. >> and the larger story that although there is still a tolerance towards homophobia that doesn't exist towards racism that is gap is narrowing. the fact that he is being suspended it's the same with the mary cheney and liz cheney thing. there is a shift.

it is not inevitable. but that's the best thing you can say about the american story there is this norm of equality. it takes us longer to get there with some groups than others. but that is the trajectory we are going. >> i have been disappointed with someone who is a gay rights supporter, i have been disappointed with the left in how they reacted to this and the void of silence they have had. if there was a conservative who said anything close to this, boycotts would be called. they would be having all sorts of letters. >> and i just -- this is just wrong. >> g.l.a.d. is an antidefamation organization. >> i won an award from g.l.a.a.d. and went from the ceremony. but their first response, the guy is like we're going to have to assess how we are going to respond to this. that's the response.

>> that's the history of -- >> they subsequently said it was inappropriate. >> but the deafening silence is staggering. >> and your point about how his career would be over with a wide variety of slurs that we could all come up with. >> and i think that the fact that that kind of slur is in a separate lesser category tells you a lot. >> look at mel gibson and his anti-semitic slurs. where has his career gone? >> and he didn't threat violence, as i recall. >> he was drunk off his backside as well. >> this guy was sober. >> i hesitate to bring this up. i don't want it to be a cnn-msnbc thing. is it a clearly some game he will be playing. and there is something just so -- whatever is going on in

his life, imagine being in that apartment and just being -- >> let's not imagine being this that apartment. >> but constantly in these fights and in these -- tweeting this stuff, who wants to live like that? really? is that how you want to live your life? i mean, anyway. >> all you can say is no. >> i think we're done. we're going to take a break. up next, items you might have missed and i ask the panel, what is your story? [ male announcer ] this is joe woods' first day of work.

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nthat's why they deserve... aer anbrake dance. get 50% off new brake pads and shoes. time now for what's your story? >> george zimmerman acquitted in the death of trayvon martin was arrested for domestic violence and charged with a felony after his girlfriend called 911 and we have some of the 911 tape. >> are you serious?

>> 911 police, fire, and medical. >> i need police right now. >> what's your address -- >> you're done breaking stuff in my house. >> ma'am? ma'am? what's going on? >> he's in my house breaking all my [ bleep ] because i asked him to leave. he has a gun and breaking all my stuff right now. no, this is not -- >> okay -- >> i'm going this again? you just broke my glass table and my sunglasses and put your gun in my freakin' face. >> pretty amazing when you consider that we know george zimmerman killed trayvon martin. he is spending tonight in prison and in court tomorrow. >> and a new mug shot of him. >> with the beard. >> on a case like this he claims he called 911 just to get his story on the record and he basically has the complete opposite. he said it's the girlfriend who broke the table. what happens in a case like this? >> that's where you start to

collect evidence and see what the circumstances were and listen to the background of the 911 tapes. there will be an investigation. he has only been arrested. he has not been indicted or charged. there will be a police investigation. but george zimmerman, we know he killed trayvon martin. we know in september police were called with his -- an incident with his wife now estranged wife. no charges were filed. he's been stopped several times for speeding. he seems to have a lot of problems -- >> i tell you what is amazing to me that there are women in florida that this man can find to date. he got no looks, sense, he's got no money, and a bad temper. ladies, match.com. >> andrew, what's your story? >> the pope, one of his harshest critics from the right is seriously ill and the pope

called him up and talked to him and the itic said, thank you holy father but i still criticize you and the pope said, i know. i'm grateful. i know it comes from love and grateful for your criticism. if only all of us could respond to criticism like that. the pope is showing how to be a christian. >> not quite alec baldwin. >> we are out poping each other today. we have found the fervor for the catholic church again. the pope has reversed the exodus from the catholic church. the slump is over. it shows you what one person can do when that person leads by example and leads with love. >> there may been an interim deal with iran this week. it would be the most significant and important thing that

president obama will do as president. to end the american cold war with iran could reshape the middle east but also be the most bitter, toughest domestic fight that obama will have in his second term. the interesting question is are his woes from obama care going to make it hard for him to win that fight? >> will they have to put up a website or anything? >> we have to take a quick break -- we're done. that is it for the edition of "ac360 later." thanks for watching. see you tomorrow. -- captions by vitac -- www.vitac.com w i'm a manager. my employer matches my charitable giving. really. i get bonuses even working part-time. where i work, over 400 people are promoted every day. healthcare starting under $40 a month. i got education benefits. i work at walmart. i'm a pharmacist. sales associate. i manage produce.

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this is the way jonestown looked the day it died, november 18th, 1978. >> die with a degree of dignity. lay down your life with dignity. >> a self-proclaimed religious paradise in guyana in south america. carved out of the jungle by jim jones, a man who called himself god. >> how very much i've loved you. how very much i've tried my best