>> first a few house rules -- nobody calling anybody governor. it's just too confusing? scott? jack? brian and newt? >> three governors and a speaker. sounds like a movie. >> a bad movie. >> in the crossfire, delaware governor jack mar kell, and wisconsin governor scott walker. he's just published a new book unintimidated. brian, since i've been a governor, you ought to dive in first, because you sort of get what this is all about and why state capitals are so different. >> the unemployment rate in wisconsin is about 6.5%, about 50% higher than minnesota, iowa, north and south dakota and nebraska, your neighbors. we governors, we always brag we're going to create jobs and we're judged on how we create those jobs. people are watching. are you letting people down? >> no, actually the opposite.

four years ago we were about the same level, four years ago, wisconsin had a.32% illinois with a 9.4%. today illinois has a 9% unemployment. we have 6.5%. >> but historically long before i was governor -- >> but more importantly when you were running in 2010, you told everyone you were creating new private-sector jobs, and i think -- >> well, by the time you finish in 2014, i think you're 90 or 100,000 people? have you broke your promise to your constituents? can you run for reelection if you don't get to 250,000? >> it was 2015, and a stark contrast, under my predecessor, we lost 133 thousand. so i want to make up for those jobs. >> they have to trust you to get reelected? >> by 2015, that's the promise we made. that's why we created a better

business climate. we took an unemployment rate right where the state of illinois is right now, and we dropped it down to 6.5%. >> you've faced somewhat similar problems, delaware has lost about 5,000 jobs, though in a terrible national economy. to what extent is part of the challenge just the whoa nature of the obama economy and the degree to which the general -- is not creating the economic growth we would like? >> let's face it, the financial crisis was an unbelievable catastrop catastrophe. we've had many jobs of growth. i think the bigger issue is what is the changed role with the u.s. economy and global economy? that's something we have to make sure that people understand. when i talk to folks in delaware, how we can make businesses more successful frankly it comes down to the quality of the workforce. that's going on across the country.

>> so from your perspective, how much of it is what you can do to make delaware competitive, and how much of it is caught up in this large i national economic challenge? >> i think to some extent the rising tide lifts all boats, but that being said, i don't think you'll find any governor prepared to sit back and wait for the national economy to get better on its own. we compete with each other all the time, but it certainly helps when the overall economy is growing. >> scott, the republicans here in washington, d.c., they're actually polling lower than the belly of the snake. you've had an op-ed that criticized the republicans here for the shutdown. could you please explain that? >> i think government is too big, too expensive, grown too far into our lives. but i think for what's left and what is necessary. it shall work.

i realize it wasn't just one set of lawmakers who were respond, it was kind of the whole group, but the reality, i think across the nation, you see governors showing that they can work. there are 30 in america that have stepped up thinking we think the government should be -- and we have an optimistic message that's working. >> you think ted cruz is hurting the brand name of the republicans nationwide? >> i think that every republican out there has a -- >> but he's the mastermind of the shutdown. >> i think the media loves to hone in on one or two people, especially? states like ohio, michigan -- >> i'm talking about his strategy. did his strategy worked of leading the republican party to the shutdown? >> i think in the end the fact that we're back on focus on obama care is where we need to

be as americans. >> is that really where americans need to be? don't they need to be focused on a growth agenda? >> yeah -- >> scott, i have to disagree. certainly the roll-out has been flawed. that being said there's so many budding entrepreneurs who have wanted to go out on their own, they felt that they've been locked in to employer based health care. now this is the first time to get out, start a business, because they'll be able to get a policy on their own. >> on cnn earlier, a handful, and literally a handful are the ones signing up. that will be part of the problems, whether or not it can be successful. it was about access, was about cost. in our case, wisconsin, we were one of the few states with no coverage gap, so access wasn't the issue. it was the cost. instead of this being an affordable care act, it's exceptionally tun affordable.

>> i have to agree. >> i don't know how it is in your state, but it is in ours for sure. >> i spoke to a guy name phil katz, couldn't get any care because he wife had a preexisting condition. he was frustrated because it did take a few weeks to navigate the website, but at the end of the day they have reduced their monthly bill by $800, reduced the deductible by $2,000, and i think once the website is working, we're going to be hearing more an more about those kinds of benefits. >> so let me ask you, though, you have the scale of disaster of the website. there's a marriage penalty buried in there, going up to $10,000 a couple. you had a lot of paces where they're literally cuttin off specialty hospitals because of the way they're controlling costs is just cutting off care. isn't obama care going to have to be fairly dramatically modified for it to work? >> i think it's going to have to get better and better.

i've heard the president say he's more than willing to sit down with democrats and republicans alike. that being said, there's a lot that's promising. we have this sort of collective amnesia about how bad the situation was before this all got started. for example, in my state, one third of the people who try to get an individual policy get turned down because of a pry existing condition. we all know about the cost of uncompensated care, and because they've had to pay for the cost of care for people who don't have insurance in the first place. >> but there's no doubt about that. what you manipulationed before about entry premurals looking to get into health care, i would agree with you on that. the dimples is, is the federal government the win -- can we address preexisting conditions, can we address things through changing the tax incentive which

in the packet has been exclusively driven toward benefiting employer-based plans. >> but if you've got a bad insurance policy that doesn't corn all of your needs, if it doesn't cover mental health, it has a cap on an annual basis, a lifetime cap, if it has scluz for preexisting conditions, what good does it have for montanaens to have an insurance company come to montana with that bad policy. don't we have to have a national policy that if you have health sherns, it has to be comprehensive? >> that's like saying if you have insurance company, you can keep it. >> that's not my question. if you're selling somebody a complicated health insurance policy, it's got to be comprehensive. in your state, you wouldn't allow an insurance company to sell insurance that says if you get in a car wreck, on tuesday, we don't count it, if you hit a red car, we don't count it. if you do it on saturday, we only count half, but that's what

a lot of these policies are. >> that's why we need a streamlined system where the entrepreneur doesn't have to buy a cadillac program, which. when young entrepreneurs need something more simplistic. >> you put up a good defense of obama care a few minutes ago. are you comfortable enough by next fall, obama care would be a net-plus, that you would encourage people to run as obama democrats? irpts i think the website has to get fixed. when you website gets fixed and people see these plans are good, they're affordable plans, i think that will be a net positive. i also think -- there's some irony in the question, in that it's not clear at all that. republicans have any plans. i think you said a few months ago the gop has no plan -- >> we have lots of plans that

frame -- but there are a number of plans. given what you're seeing happening right now, are you comfortable saying people running for congress, it's okay to wrap yourself up. be proud, defend all this mess? >> first of all if the website gets fixed, there will be a lieutenant of good stories. i would much rather be supporting that than supporting the gop, which as you said a few months ago hasn't really offered any plan >> we haven't talked about the biggest disgre. it's one that impacts everyone 'budget, and these governors are on the opposite sides. i'll ask them about that, next. there are seniors who have left hundreds of dollars of savings on the table by not choosing the right medicare d plan. no one could have left this much money here. whoo-hoo-hoo! yet many seniors who compare medicare d plans realize they can save hundreds of dollars. cvs/pharmacy wants to help you save on medicare expenses.

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welcome back. in the crossfire tonight are governor jack markle, and governor scott. here's the dirty little secret. in 1999, you, scott, and the legislature in wisconsin voted to expand medicaid to cover all able-bodied who make up to 200% -- obama care only pays for people who make 133%. so governor walker, you're trying to act tough by refusing to expand medicaid. while your state is taking more federal money to cover more people that the president would. >> oddly it's a little different, than my predecessor, jim doyle, only put enough money to fund a portion -- >> you voted in 1999 as a legislate are to take it to 185. >> when the kicker was not the

percentage, but the amount of money to put in. there wasn't enough to fund people, so they were literally on a waiting list. until my plan, i reduced the number of people insured, i put everyone living in poverty on medica medicaid, no democrat has done that before. going forward, everyone lives above is is transitioning. >> c'mon, scott, you can earn $15,000 more under obama care and get covered by government health insurance. isn't like the badger having both of his paws in the trough? >> we didn't take the path that those who said no to it did so, we didn't take the path for those that said yes. we took the wisconsin way, putting more people into and not on government assistance, fewer people on medicaid. >> so you're making obama care work in wisconsin. >> well, it's the law. the law simply -- we've had to delay it for three months,

because the roll-out didn't work. we didn't want people to fall through the cracks, but -- >> let me ask you a question, jack about working. in the first 30 days, delaware web side signed up four people at a cost of $4 million. non, isn't a million a little i don't want to sound like i'm a conservative, but it strikes me, this is a really -- you know, if that was the obama care average nationally, we would go bankrupt. >> you really could fly to the move it sir rich and branson. >> we have about 3500 people who have put their enrollment plexes online, that they have registered to enroll, but let's face it, the website has to get fixed. everybody agrees with that, we're as anxious as anybody for the department of health and social services and cms to get that fixed. that being said on the issue of

medicaid expanse, that was a slam dunk. it wasn't a matter of philosophy. this was really fors a matter of math. we're able to cover an additional 30, 35 thousands people. they're not going to have to get sick or sicker and end up in the emergency room. the federal government does pick up 100% for the first thee years, 90% thereafter and a higher reimbursement for people already covered. for you we pet the spreadsheet together. >> but i've been watching this, state after state, vast majority, overwhelming majority of who's getting covered right now is in medicate. it raises the question, couldn't you have done virtually every positive that obama wanted to, with a medicate fix, not messed of small businesses, not gone through all this other stuff and probably got 90% of the good you're trying to get without any

of of the bad? >> the reason that so many people so far have signed up is the website hasn't been working. when the website is working, there will be lot of stories like the phil katz, and many others, but until the web side gets fixed, it's going to be very frustrating. >> scott, you know, chris christie and governor kasich and suzanne martinez and yourself, you have all used obama care to expand the coverage of health care in your states. if one or all of you run for president, woant that diagnose qualified you since 90% of republicans in the recent polling are against obama care? >> in our case wharks we did is completely different. >> you're using obama care as the principle, moving people off the medicaid program and into the insurance exchange. >> we're using what's available to us. i mentioned i would prefer a better market-blazed solution. >> what they have done is agreed to medicaid expansion.

they didn't have the badger with his foot in the trough like you did in wisconsin. so -- >> and they didn't like at yours like 95%, so you're moving up to 133%. in montana we were at 56%. you were already at 200%, but he brought it down to 100%, and people living above that should be transitioned into the marketplace, whether it's that, how many people are no longer solely dependent. >> the republican voters won't hold it against you governors if you do run for president because you used obama care. >> conservatives across the country have said this is one of the most innovative plans because we didn't do what some states did in taking it or not taking it. we didn't put the taxpayers in our state on thing who. we're relying on a federal government to again on future money and instead, we put a plan if place that the kaiser family foundation, not exactly a

conservative think tank says wisconsin has no coverage gap. >> people ten to characterize republicans, the fact is wisconsin has covered many more people than delaware has. delaware is not a marchly poor state but it is pretty clear that they've taken care of a large he enough of poor people. f i don't know. i'm not being argumentative but the question is when you've taken them off medicate and put them into the obama care, is the effect of that. some of them may not be able to afford the premiums and i think this is one of the risks. so in our state, we have 90,000 people who don't have insurance. we speck 30 to 35,000 will sign up on the exchange. we expect another 30,000 on medicaid and they're probably 30,000 who won't be on either one. >> some democrats in our state

questioned it. he said that's obama care as it was passed. for someone living just above poverty, with the subsidy, that's the question mark. it is not working. >> i'm told that we're going to go next. i want to ask everyone to stay here. next we're going to the final question for both of our guests. we want you at home to weigh in on today's fire back question. does gop have a better chance of winning the presidency in 2016 if it nominates a governor? tweet yes or no using #crossfire. over the next 40 years

the united states population is going to grow by over 90 million people, and almost all that growth is going to be in cities. what's the healthiest and best way for them to grow so that they really become cauldrons of prosperity and cities of opportunity?

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we're back. now the final question. let me ask you. you've run the executive branch. you've had people report to you. if you had had a cabinet office we are a disaster on the scale of this webb, wouldn't you have replaced him? for sheer incompetence? >> i think secretary sebelius is extraordinarily competent. she was a great governor, insurance commissioner before that. i think the main focus is getting this thing fixed and i'm sure she is very much focused on getting that. >> let me ask a follow-up because i can't help myself. we have this total national fiasco. this is a country that has

amazon, ebay, google, wikipedia. you now know that they were being told for weeks, this is not going on work. and they went ahead and apparently if you believe the president's press conference, nobody happened to say to him, by the way, big guy, this whole thing will crash and burn. i mean, should not somebody be held accountable? >> i think the first thing is everybody ought to focus on fixing it. once it is fixed, once it is up, once peel are signing on. >> so the morning after it works we might say goodbye to her? >> doesn't it seem like the bigger problem with, that as i understand watching from afar, wasn't so much the cabinet secretary as much as a lot of the decisions early on, came from the political shop in the white house and not from the policy team in the cabinet and all of us who have been governors, you have to dpenld on your policy folks. >> they need to bring a bus load of teenagers in to fix it. both jack and i came from the private sector. and we've both run for

re-election. i think you got 70%, i got 65.5%. you're running against a business woman by the name of mary burke. do you think you're helping your cause by being outside of wisconsin going to these fancy dinners and wearing a suit? why don't you get back to the county fares and spend more time in wisconsin? reelections can be tough. >> in my case, it is interesting. this week we're out on a book tour. i called a special session for the first week of december because my lawmakers, democrats and republicans alike asked me not to call for this week going into thanksgiving so it was the perk time to be out talking about a book to talk about the story of wisconsin. not just the story -- >> scott, you and i are known around the country as straight shooters, straight talkers so i'm going to ask you straight ruffle running for this president in 2016? >> running for governor. and i have done it not once but twice in the last two and a half years. >> are you running for president in 2016? >> i'm running for governor. that's what i'm focused on. >> on that cheerful note i want

to thank our governors. i want tournlg all of you to go to facebook or twitter to weigh in on our fireback question. does gop have a better chance of winning the presidency in 2016 if it nominates the governor? right now 47% of you say yes. 53% say no. >> the debate continues online at cnn.com/crossfire. >> join us monday with another edition of crossfire. erin burnett "outfront" joins us right now. "outfront," news, the united states on the verge of an historic deal with iran. plus, honoring jfk. people in the u.s. and around the world will show you, celebrating the form he president. and new information about the 24-year-old teacher found murdered behind her school. horrific details about the attack and a possible motive